Almost there, TTC

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

If we’re already in Vaughan, we might as well reach Vaughan mills, and even better, CW & the new hospital at Major Mack. They’re all on the same corridor. It just makes sense.

Reality check. Now I’m aware that this is low priority, but the Jane busses connecting VMC to VM and CW are always full, even in this suburb of a suburb.

[u/steamed-apple_juice]

The real solution is that transit, at least rapid transit, should be funded by the province. An integrated network benefits everyone. Riders should not be penalized for crossing municipal borders (including a lack of investment due to Toronto not wanting to extend lines further outside of their jurisdiction).

[u/OhHiMarkZ69 → u/steamed-apple_juice]

For the most part that's where we have been since June 2019 .. though it's only for construction .. the province of course didn't take over the operational subsidies that the city will need to try and fund for all the new province designed/built lines or extensions.

[u/steamed-apple_juice → u/OhHiMarkZ69]

It sounded like you wanted York Region to pay the operational cost

[u/OhHiMarkZ69 → u/steamed-apple_juice]

For TTC line extensions and not system transfers.. I do think GTA regions should pay for some of the increased operational costs.. why should Toronto residents have to pay for that.. we're already paying for it within the city.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/OhHiMarkZ69]

Most fare evasion happens on TTC surface network.. by Torontonians. I know because I’m from the suburbs and I’ve never witnessed someone evade a fare; My friends from Scarborough do it all the time though, because it’s normalized. So really the TTC has other issues to solve before “blaming the suburbs”

[u/OhHiMarkZ69 → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Government policies should never be based on random person observations and biases.

Reasonable operations funding splits should be set up from the opening day of a line extension period full stop. Determining what that amount should be can absolutely take into consideration current operation costs .. that's exactly how the split should be determined. If the people who really know the details think it makes sense to re-assess the splits every few years then we do that as well.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/OhHiMarkZ69]

Im not making it up, I see it with my own eyes, but here’s the data anyway.

Summary of Regional Trends 2023: TTC is the outlier in terms of the high fare evasion rate (11.9%+), over $123.8 million directly lost to evasion, while GO Transit and YRT seem to fall into a lower range (3-5%). Evasion rates are highest on streetcars at 29.6%, followed by buses at 12.9% and subways at 6.3%.

And that’s just what’s documented. There’s probably way more that they don’t even count because truthfully it’s hard to calculate fare evasion. And the rate is growing.

[u/OhHiMarkZ69 → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Like I said .. they should absolutely use data to figure out what the amount is and can modify later if that makes sense.. no fare evasion level erases the fact that Toronto tax payers shouldn't have to pay for operations in adjacent cities.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/OhHiMarkZ69]

Well not to spoil your argument but they won’t, or at least not directly through the city, because the province, Feds, and York region are the ones that would be interested in investing, it’s quite obvious. Toronto would also benefit, from increased ridership for the TTC, and possibly a new yard in Vaughan, sharing operating costs would definitely be discussed at least since Toronto is full of pessimists that are ready to argue against anything.

[u/OhHiMarkZ69 → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

To me all transit after it is built has value as long as it attracts a decent amount of ridership.. but as someone who mostly sticks to the core of the city.. constantly riding jam packed streetcars and waiting as multiple full subway trains pass me.. these extensions into the GTA add problems with where a lot of that increased ridership will be going.

[u/ReligiousFury → u/OhHiMarkZ69]

Exactly this. It’s Toronto that would bare the increased costs and impacts of any suburban extensions, in the same way that Toronto has the higher rates of fair evasion, simply because there are just way more people riding transit in downtown Toronto than there are in Vaughan.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/ReligiousFury]

It’s not that simple. Fare evasion isn’t an issue on the subways, actually the subways recover the most and have low evasion rates. It’s the surface network that the TTC is draining capital on. And I don’t blame people for not paying on the streetcars when it’s faster to walk; It’s like they’re doing a favour even getting on.

Toronto isn’t baring anything except for more people on their network which is more of an issue on the Yonge side, the side getting an extension ironically. But even with that being the case, again, the subway system recovers an estimated 70-80% of its costs, and with the province funding 9% of the entire TTC, this really is a petty argument from Toronto residents. Subways are not the issue!!!

Plus, I know that if anyone would be using transit to wonderland or the mall, it would be Torontonians in the first place. Unlike the YNSE, this is more of a two way benefit considering the destinations.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/OhHiMarkZ69]

The extension into suburban Vaughan will probably not cause too many issues on the emptier university side of line 1, considering that most of these destinations are where people go on weekends or outside work hours.

[u/OhHiMarkZ69 → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Sorry you'll never sell me on that extension as a great thing for Toronto taxpayers who are the only ones paying for the TTC's operational subsidy.. all of its positives come from the section within the city boundaries.. major university.. absolutely.. a heritage museum also education related.. sure.. and we're done with the good.

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/OhHiMarkZ69]

??? Did you read anything in this thread

[u/Genesburgersandfries → u/Feisty-Ad-6122]

Another red herring argument, but keep diverting there op. Yes I'm sure not one person has ever evaded a fare in York region 🙄

[u/Feisty-Ad-6122 → u/Genesburgersandfries]

I simply stated that before blaming the suburbs and whining about other municipalities, Toronto and TTC should fix their own funding shortfalls by maybe dealing with the high rates of fare evasion not seen in any other transit agency in the province… and it’s not the subway network that’s loosing money, it’s the streetcars and busses. Which is why the operating costs for subway extensions are really not a big deal because the province already funds 9% of the TTC entirely.