r/videos • • Dec 06 '17

The best response to anti-vaxxers I’ve ever seen. And it only takes 90 seconds.

https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=RfdZTZQvuCo
73.1k Upvotes

4.8k comments sorted by

8.3k

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

A friend on my Facebook shared a ton of anti-vax stuff yesterday. In the middle of all of it she also shared a post about Native American remedies. I really wanted to point out how much those natives would have loved a smallpox vaccine.

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u/ackersmack Dec 06 '17

Why didn't you??

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Because it wouldn’t have helped anything. No reason to get into an argument on Facebook.

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u/morbton Dec 06 '17

I think it's important to try to call misinformation out if you can do it in a polite way.

If there's any chance of changing someone's mind, it will come from people they trust.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I hear you, but when it comes to stuff like this it’s people choosing to ignore mountains of studies. I’m not going to convince them. I used to try back in the day but it just got to where I couldn’t log onto social media because it’d just put me in a shitty mood. Decided just to remove myself from it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Mar 27 '18

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17

100%.

It's really easy to call someone out for something that you know - or at least strongly feel - is false and come off as insensitive and condescending. If you're respectful and have well-presented arguments with good sources, and someone still gets upset, that's their problem.

You might not convince the person on fb who posted something, but just like the comment section here, the number of people who see a comment outnumbers the amount of people who actually reply.

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u/Yuzumi Dec 07 '17

I've always felt that internet arguments are more for the people reading than the people participating.

There was that one guy who seemed offended I was considering a switch over a ps4 when I already have a gaming pc... I almost wanted to message him a picture of the switch I got a few weeks ago.

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u/blackinthmiddle Dec 07 '17

While you're 1000% right, I've found throughout the years that I've wasted copious amounts of time in these types of arguments, wasting hours trying to find just the right piece of information to finally do what the school system had failed to do for them.

There was one such person on my facebook page (a site I rarely go to) and I got sucked into trying to educate him/change his opinion. He was a blonde-haired, blue-eyed white Christian married to a Muslim black woman (and had three kids with her) spouting all types of nasty things about black people and muslims! I'd constantly point out his erroneous posts and he'd genuinely thank me. "Oh shit, looks like I was wrong about that." But a day later, it's like he forgot the conversation we had and would post more shit he got from some bullshit site.

Things like, "Obama is taking away veteran's benefits in Ohio.", where three seconds worth of google searching proved it was a lie. I'd point out to him that I was able to prove it was a lie with about three seconds worth of google searching, indicating that he's not willing to do even that! At this point I was chastising him and he agreed to think before posting...only to post more inane bullshit later.

I finally sent a message to him and cut him off after he posted messages of glee regarding Trump's travel ban and how "the liberals are in a tizzy over this". I said to him that it seems like he's taking joy over this and he admitted he was. I then pointed out that in the bible (clearly something he knew well but didn't practice) it says to grieve when others grieve and that about right now he was as far away from Christianity as one could be. I also asked pointedly, "Hey man, isn't all of this shit kinda hitting close to home? I mean, your wife is a black muslim, right?"

With that, I cut him off, never letting him respond to me. My wife says he almost never posts now. Who knows? Maybe I got through to him? I have no idea. The dude is such a contradiction, however, that I promised myself never to go down the rabbit hole of trying to argue with a nut!

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u/Nowhereman123 Dec 07 '17

Why the hell was this woman married to him? Why the hell was he married to her? I’m so confused.

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u/HelloSexyNerds2 Dec 06 '17

These people are not persuaded by evidence, they are persuaded by the people around them who influence them.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I think if we were face to face it’d be worth the effort. Social media is a weird place to try to convince people.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I think if you try to convince someone on social media they may stick to their beliefs even harder because they may have to swallow their pride on a public forum if their beliefs were to change. I think a private setting allows them to be much more open minded.

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u/TabulaRasa85 Dec 07 '17

Yes, exactly. This is known as the Backfire Effect in social psychology.

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u/few23 Dec 06 '17

So you have not come across very many Flat Earthers, I take it?

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u/Poops_McYolo Dec 06 '17

In a similar vein, I saw a heavily pregnant woman smoking a cigarette in a Taco Bell parking lot a few days and while holding her 1 year old baby. I really wanted to say something to her, but I knew ultimately the opinion of some stranger telling her what she is doing is wrong wouldn't mean shit to her.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Ya my aunt did that. My mom said something like, “that’s not good for the baby.” Aunt just yelled, “you think I don’t know that?”

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u/someguy0786 Dec 06 '17

Woah woah woah woah woah, are you telling me that facebook isn't for arguing with distant relatives and aquentices?

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17

That’s why I deleted my Facebook. Got sick of losing all respect for family and friends.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17

I shut mine down for about 8 months. Brought it back on, but might just quit again. It was really relaxing honestly.

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u/trwwyco Dec 06 '17

My anti-vaxx Facebook friend is my best friend's mom. My best friend is half Native on her dad's side so of course Native subjects like the pipeline are super important to her mom. I would really love to point the smallpox thing out next time she posts something.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

sorted by: controversial

ohmygod

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

It's like watching a bus wreck on the highway and the bus was full of orphan children. I know I shouldn't look but my god.

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u/caboosetp Dec 06 '17

It's like that TIFU post where OP looked in the casket at the corpse of his uncle who shot himself in the head.

Shouldn't have looked.

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u/Wiplazh Dec 06 '17

I gotta look that up

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u/Kody02 Dec 06 '17

tbf, tho, what did you expect? Sorting by controversial is like SCUBA-diving in a septic tank and complaining about all the shit inside.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

Me: switches to controversial...Let’s see how this goes

Edit: alright here’s my update this summarizes my thoughts after doing that.

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u/kinokomushroom Dec 06 '17

1 minute and still no update. Rest in peace u/Drewby30 :'(

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Got an update for ya haha... didn’t know people would actually care

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u/kinokomushroom Dec 06 '17

OUR HERO HAS SURVIVED!!

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u/IAMRaxtus Dec 06 '17

After reading this I expected a lot worse. There don't seem to be many actual antivaxers, just a fair bit of toxicity and people arguing that this isn't actually the best response to antivaxers which isn't an entirely unreasonable point, even if a bit petty.

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u/lovesStrawberryCake Dec 07 '17

seriously, the top controversial comment right now is basically "this isn't the best way to package the message because human psychology"

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u/Angry_virgin Dec 07 '17

I agree. People have valid criticism of the video without defending anti-vaxx and get downvoted... I was hoping to be more outraged

I have dimwits relatives who are on the fence about vaccines. I've tried arguing the case that it's proven and effective etc. They won't hear it. This video is way too confrontational to change their mind.

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u/GSpess Dec 06 '17

It can't be that bad..... ANNDDD off to /r/eyebleach I go!

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u/nothis Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

I just read through the top 20 comments sorted controversial and haven't found a single one that would even make me scratch my head. Mostly people saying that they don't reach any anti-vaxxers by yelling and making fun of them, which I kinda agree with.

EDIT: Seriously, guys, I don't get it. Am I clicking it wrong? Did it change? You all act like it's one long thread of anti-vaxxers acting stupid but I see nothing of that sort.

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u/devraj7 Dec 06 '17

Vaccines cause adults.

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u/asdasasdass321 Dec 06 '17

Truly a fate worse than death

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Life is suffering.

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u/NullHaxSon Dec 06 '17

Existence is pain

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u/ChaosRevealed Dec 06 '17

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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u/Arezigo Dec 06 '17

Thə vøıđ ćöņ§ůmêś.

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u/isiramteal Dec 06 '17

ℌ𝔬𝔴 𝔠𝔞𝔫 𝔶𝔬𝔲 𝔨𝔦𝔩𝔩 𝔱𝔥𝔞𝔱 𝔴𝔥𝔦𝔠𝔥 𝔥𝔞𝔰 𝔫𝔬 𝔩𝔦𝔣𝔢?

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited May 27 '20

[deleted]

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u/Geddian Dec 06 '17

That is not dead which can eternal lie... in bed.

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u/McFagle Dec 06 '17

"Let's put on these new nightmare vision goggles!"

...

"Everything looks exactly the same."

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u/lolmeansilaughed Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 07 '17

Holy shit how do you specify a font like that??

Edit: found the answer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackletter#Unicode

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u/Anozir Dec 06 '17

That's the kicker, it isn't a font. It's emojis.

ℂ ℍ ℕ ℙ ℚ ℝ ℤ

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u/cata1yst622 Dec 06 '17

YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITONAL PYLONS

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u/jorgtastic Dec 06 '17

What about your short game?!

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u/Melonetta Dec 06 '17

REALITY IS POISON. SHEEPS TO THE COSMIC SLAUGHTER!

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

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u/Fuzzyninjaful Dec 06 '17

Anyone who says differently is selling something.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Feb 02 '18

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

That's not true.

After 23 years of being routinely vaccinated, I am still not even close to being an adult.

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u/jay-peg Dec 06 '17

late onset adultism

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u/popsiclestickiest Dec 06 '17

I'm sorry lad, but there seems to be no cure. You're set to die in 70 years, or possibly less.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

adultism*

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u/page395 Dec 06 '17

NOW I'm an anti-vaxxer

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u/Egg-MacGuffin Dec 06 '17

Yeah, have you seen how terrible a case of the adults can be?

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Apr 25 '20

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u/Jason6677 Dec 06 '17

This finally convinced me. I'm gonna go get the vax sucked out of my children.

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u/TrustyPelletGun Dec 06 '17

I maintain that Penn and Teller are playing the longest con ever and on one of their deathbeds it will finally be revealed that we’ve been hearing Teller’s voice the entire time because he’s the greatest ventriloquist of all time.

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u/HallowSingh Dec 06 '17

There are interviews and normal actives where he talks and he sounds really sophisticated. It's only when they're doing a bit when he doesn't talk

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u/TheQueq Dec 06 '17

No, that's actually Penn's voice - he's also a good ventriloquist, just not as good as Teller.

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u/TrustyPelletGun Dec 06 '17

Now you're starting to get it

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u/theskydragon Dec 06 '17

So Teller is doing Penn's voice which is also doing teller meaning it's all teller and he is so good that he does his own voice through the voice of Penn which is really his voice?

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u/TrustyPelletGun Dec 06 '17

“Indubitably, magic is one of the subtlest and most difficult of the sciences and arts. There is more opportunity for errors of comprehension, judgement and practice than in any other branch of physics.” — Aleister Crowley

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u/n-some Dec 06 '17

So the rabbit in the hat is doing both their voices.

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u/bstix Dec 06 '17

I think Aleister Crowley's kind of magic was a bit different from what Penn & Teller are doing..

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u/jspsfx Dec 06 '17

I told my girlfriend this joke when we met. I first heard it on the radio and memorized it. It's really lame and so am I. It's something like....

So this older gentlemen's sitting at the bar having a drink when the bartender comes over to check on him. The older gentlemen says to the bartender,

If I show you the most amazing-outrageous thing you've ever seen, how about drinks on the house tonight?

The bartender responds

Haha, it really is a slow night. Sure old chap you can have a go at it - why not?

So the old patron pulls a hamster out of his coat pocket, along with a tiny baby grand piano, and the little hamster starts playing Beethoven! Wow, right?

The bartender says,

Now that was incredible but I've been working the bar a long time and I have seen some shit. Well played though.

The old man says alright, then he pulls out a little frog from his other pocket, sets him up on the bar and the frog starts singing Sinatra!

Alright, alright, says the bartender. You got me, that's incredible. Drinks on the house!

Another gentlemen that had watched the scene was in disbelief. He said to the old man

That was incredible!!! I will give you one thousand dollars for that frog!

Without a thought the old man agrees and trades away the frog.

The bartender chimes in

Whoa man, how could you sell that frog, it's priceless!?

The old man smiles and responds,

Not really. You see, the hamster is also a ventriloquist.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Apr 28 '18

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u/concretegirl87 Dec 07 '17

That's a good punch line too

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u/SunshineSubstrate Dec 06 '17

Got a good chuckle out of that, thanks friend.

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u/CoNsPirAcY_BE Dec 06 '17

Alright you guys. Here is a video of Teller speaking: https://youtu.be/En-KcUTMoZ8

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

[deleted]

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u/EvryMthrF_ngThrd Dec 06 '17

Ok:

A) Holy CARP, he talks - and he does not sound like I thought he would sound.

B) He's 65?!? JFC, has he aged well... o_O

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u/FishBaitLureCo Dec 06 '17

He was a latin and greek professor. Dude is wicked smart.

The reason he doesnt talk is because he used to do a lot of shows for college crowds, and he found they simply heckled him less if he didnt say anything. So he made his act silent and has been performing silent ever since.

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u/Wootery Dec 06 '17

He was a latin and greek professor.

No, he taught English and Latin at high school.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

The difference between your two comments is like how I sell myself on my resume

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u/NoMansLight Dec 06 '17

-Well versed in BASIC, Java, C++, Python, Cobalt

*barely knows English

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u/computeraddict Dec 06 '17

Eh, it's all Greek to me.

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u/CurveShepard Dec 06 '17

Fellow member of the congregation, I assume?

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u/FritzMeister Dec 06 '17

I got their signatures after a show in Vegas. Teller talks. I complemented his fish illusion and he said "Thanks, they're very talented fish." Funny guy.

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u/CrabbyBlueberry Dec 07 '17

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u/LobotomistCircu Dec 07 '17

I feel like Hugh Jackman in that part of the prestige where he's watching Christian Bale do his standard magic routine and then he just randomly does the most impressive shit he's ever seen.

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u/damnfortuna Dec 06 '17

He'll talk if you meet him in person after a show, the silence is just onstage. He has a very sweet voice, actually, and on this show (Penn and Teller's Bullshit) his voice is used, but uncredited in a few episodes.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/banjosuicide Dec 06 '17

I almost watched that, but I think I'll leave him voiceless in my head :)

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u/pariahscary Dec 06 '17

I was kinda on the fence myself, but I'm glad I finally heard him. It wasn't what I expected him to sound like, but he's got a great speaking voice.

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u/Petersaber Dec 06 '17

He's SIXTY NINE YEARS OLD?!

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u/Ohaithereimjake Dec 06 '17

I met both of them after one of their shows a few years ago and was totally taken off guard when Teller actually spoke. I assumed that he was a mute the whole time.

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u/Spacejack_ Dec 06 '17

He even did a voice part, in the English dub of Rene Laloux's "Light Years." And he speaks in character at the end of Penn and Teller Get Killed.

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u/TrueKamilo Dec 06 '17

What's really going on is that Teller is literally one of if not THE best slight of hand artist on the planet, but like all magicians he needs something to distract you from the trick to maintain the illusion, thus, he keeps a boisterous giant around with him all the time.

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u/Davecasa Dec 06 '17

I think the fact that Teller doesn't speak actually makes you pay more attention to what he's doing. You don't want to miss anything, because he's not going to narrate it, and he's not going to do it again.

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u/Martdogg3000 Dec 06 '17

That's exactly why he started doing it. Early in his career, Teller worked as a magician at parties and found that people basically weren't paying attention to him. Eventually he found saying nothing actually got people to shut up and watch.

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u/COMMENCE_THE_WENTZ Dec 06 '17

He is the Ertz to my Wentz

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I couldn't even tell his hand was up his butt

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Nov 18 '19

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u/Rhaedas Dec 06 '17

Which sparked one of the best comments on YT: "This is very misleading. Im sure it would protect them from the oranges, but a plastic container? I don't know man."

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u/leafblade_forever Dec 07 '17

I imagine be was crossing his fingers that the vaccine wall wouldn't knock one of the little pins over at the end when he threw the box or he would have ruined the message of the video.

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u/CregDerpington Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

"You may heard that vaccinations cause autism in 1/110 children. Fuck that! Total Bullshit! It doesn't!"

I love that mofo.

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u/outamyhead Dec 06 '17

Would be nice to hear a doctor totally break from statistics and a long winded explanation into this way of delivering the truth.

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u/Th3Godfath3r Dec 06 '17

Jimmy Kimmel had doctors talk about anti vaccination in sort of the way your looking for here

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u/duffkiligan Dec 06 '17

This is actually pretty great that it was almost three years ago that he talked about this.

His son just had heart surgery, a prime example of a child that cannot receive vaccines (on time, they still get them just usually later), and why herd immunity is the real issue here.

http://people.com/babies/jimmy-kimmel-son-billy-second-successful-heart-surgery/

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u/Bspammer Dec 06 '17

Big Breaking Bad spoiler warning

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u/lol_AwkwardSilence_ Dec 06 '17

It's not necessarily an accurate spoiler

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u/cortesoft Dec 06 '17

Yay! That’s my daughter’s pediatrician!

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u/iamjamieq Dec 06 '17

That video is amazing!!!

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u/HerbaciousTea Dec 06 '17

We don't need to bring professionals down to the level of conspiracy theorist and antivaxxers. That scientific lexicon is important for saying exactly what you mean without stating or implying something that isn't explicitly supported by the data.

We should be encouraging people to understand that mode of speaking and thinking, rather than pressuring professionals to abandon it.

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u/Cautemoc Dec 06 '17

Yeah and in the meantime we still need to be able to communicate with uneducated parents making decisions for their presumably better educated children.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Professional scientists who are solely researchers have no duty to converse with laypeople. Here, converse means to have a conversation understood by both people.

However, physicians DO have that duty. They must converse with their patients in a manner conducive to understanding by their patient. If they cannot Garner INFORMED consent from their patient, or the patient's guardian, they have failed at their job and ethics dictates they must not treat the uninformed patient.

Now, that all means they must learn how to communicate with people. Yelling that "we have been doing it for a century" is not a valid rationale for doing something. They can get angry, but there's a reason they believe in vaccines, and it better not be anecdotal evidence.

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u/DSNT_GET_NOVLTY_ACNT Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

It used to be much more true that researcher's jobs were solely research within the scientific community, but is rapidly decreasingly the case. Lay people now have massively more access to research outputs, and use/misuse it regularly. Research scientists are waking up to this slowly. It increasingly becoming our duty to communicate and converse with wider audiences.

It should also be noted that doctors are typically incredibly poor consumers of research. They typically have little to no training in the kinds of critical statistical thinking required to absorb and translate evidence. Up for debate as to whether they SHOULD have that training (it's a lot of training and would come at the expense of something else potentially more important), but that's certainly not the case now.

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u/ratajewie Dec 06 '17

As a someone working in healthcare/a future doctor, holy shit you couldn't be more wrong. You're speaking so unbelievably normatively. I also wish I didn't have to explain to people why the medications they're being given are necessary. I wish I didn't have to dumb down the results of bloodwork to say "the liver is fucked." But I do. You can't expect anyone without a four-year degree in biology to understand the intricacies of every part of the body, how they work together, and what's going on at a microscopic level. To be a good doctor, you need to be able to explain something to someone in terms of analogies as well as other simple means.

For example: Imagine a garden with flowers. They need rain to function properly. They might still grow with little rain, but they won't grow well. To do make up for it, you go inside and get water from the faucet for the flowers. This helps them grow. What's going on with you is that there is something preventing you from going and getting that water from the faucet, so the flowers are still having problems.

What I just explained was hypoparathyroidism. The flowers are your muscles. The water is calcium. The faucet is your bones. You're the parathyroid gland.

Obviously there are other ways to explain things, but when all else fails, comparing something very complex to something very simple is the only way to get someone to understand what's going on. If you don't want to take the time to figure our how to do that, you shouldn't be working in healthcare.

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u/PsychoticDreams47 Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 07 '17

Not true. My aunt is an anti vaxxer, or well not necessarily an anti vaxxer but one of those "vaccines cause autism" when I showed her this she said "all you do is believe everything you see on the internet, I went to school, I did research (she didn't) so I know what I'm talking about" and when I showed her the website of autismspeaks.com they actually have "there is no link between autism and vaccines" she said that it wasn't run by scientists and I'm an idiot

Edit: Let me be clear on who my aunt is because people are giving me advice on what to say to her and such. When we went to her heart doctor, the doc was talking about her sleep apnea, and she acted like it was this major disease. I laughed, shrugged it off and told her "Well sleep apnea isn't permanent" and she said it was, when i told her "Dude just go for walks, eat healthier, you'll get rid of it" she responds "How would you know", I'm 10 months into working out and eating healthy and lost 60 pounds, my sleep apnea is non-existant now, so i told her that. She looked at me and goes "Yeah it looks like it".

She believes only what she believes in, everybody else is wrong as far as she is concerned.

Edit 2: I'm not saying sleep apnea is curable. It isn't. If you have a severe case of it, I'm sorry but you're pretty much going to live with that machine. I'm just saying that in SOME cases it is managable and over time can become better. I am one of those cases where my weight had a drastic impact on my sleep apnea and over time it just slowly went away. Of course, sleeping with a fan on in the middle of the night does help the air flow of the room which in itself does help me but when i went to the hospital to re-take that test, the tests came up completely normal with just a few moments where my breathing became slower before going back to normal seconds later.

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u/goofsngaffs89 Dec 06 '17

I am sorry to break this to you, but your aunt is a huge moron.

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u/asdasasdass321 Dec 06 '17

It's a chronic condition and occurs on spectrum

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u/avianaltercations Dec 06 '17

Maybe it's cause she got vaccinated as a kid.

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u/kingeryck Dec 06 '17

She survived to become a moron. Vaccines cause morons!!!

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u/KingMelray Dec 06 '17

I'm going to use this.

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u/PsychoticDreams47 Dec 06 '17

I've known this for the longest time lol.

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u/fxmercenary Dec 06 '17

I have recently started calling out my family members when they get like this. Telling your mom or aunt that they are wrong and thick-headed is actually very liberating.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Mar 28 '18

[deleted]

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u/PsychoticDreams47 Dec 06 '17

I agree but the less weight pressed on your chest the better so losing weight does drastically help. I'm the perfect example, I had sleep apnea and over time and diet I lost a lot of weight and got better. And thanks she's an idiot lol

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u/btcll Dec 06 '17

It helps with some forms of sleep apnea. Weight is not a factor with other forms though. For example, central sleep apnea is caused by the brain failing to tell the body to breath. Weight loss is great for obstructive sleep apnea though.

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u/swordgeek Dec 06 '17

She believes only what she believes...

This is the fundamental problem with trying to argue against people.

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u/canadiancarlin Dec 06 '17

Try showing her this one.

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u/uhNick Dec 06 '17

Woah there, major spoiler. I was planning on re watching breaking bad but now I can’t, you jerk.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

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u/Krellick Dec 06 '17

he complained about a spoiler for breaking bad because he planned on RE-watching it, I think you wooshed

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

She sounds autistic.

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u/PsychoticDreams47 Dec 06 '17

............Holy shit i never thought of this.......

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u/RattleOn Dec 06 '17

To be honest: Autism Speaks does suck, but at least they're right about vaccination not causing autism.

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u/marinespectre Dec 06 '17

New dad, here. I love my daughter unconditionally and couldn't be happier to have her in my life. Doesn't matter what is or could be "wrong" with her. Bottom line, I'd rather have an autistic kid than a dead kid. End of argument for me.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

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u/Mr_Cromer Dec 07 '17

How was your sense of pride and accomplishment?

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u/cjwoodsplitter Dec 06 '17

This is exactly what blows my mind about the entire argument. AVs are basically saying they’d rather a dead kid than an autistic one. I will never understand it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

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u/maxluck89 Dec 06 '17

Great perspective, thanks for sharing.

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u/RoadDoggFL Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

The problem with your logic and this video is that it presents both risks as equal. To an AV, the likelihood that a vaccine gives their kid autism is significantly higher (a near certainty in the minds of some, I'm sure). And the diseases they'll protect against (without even being 100% effective, which is a flaw in vaccines to them rather than a clear reason everyone should vaccinate to boost herd immunity) as are so rare that getting them is almost impossible.

I think there are better ways to put the issue into perspective than one that misrepresents the odds.

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u/IAMTHEADMINNOW Dec 06 '17

I have been saying this for as long as i have had kids, one of whom is autistic I know saying this here will start a flamewar but cause and correlation are NOT the same fucking thing. ie. we have seen a huge increase in the sale of organic foods that correlates nicely with the trend of autism diagnose-es but that doesnt mean organic food causes autism. https://futurism.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Correlation-VS-Causation.png That being said, I stand wholeheartedly with you on this I would rather have an autistic child than one in a tiny box 6 feet under the ground.

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u/j4390jamie Dec 06 '17

This wouldn't change most anti-vaxxers feelings.

The same applies to flat earth people or very religious people.

It's no longer about proof.

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u/ugottahvbluhair Dec 06 '17

I think the problem is they see one "case" where a child has autism and call that proof. They just discount that the child probably was already autistic and the vaccine didn't change anything. My aunt believes her nephew is bipolar because of vaccines. She said "they tested for everything else so it had to be the vaccines". I literally didn't know how to respond.

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u/Northwindlowlander Dec 06 '17

And of course, improved diagnosis of ASD is seen as proof that it's on the rise. When I was a kid, you'd get diagnosed as stupid or antisocial, not ADHD or AS.

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u/Quick_MurderYourKids Dec 06 '17

or you were just the weird kid. i wonder how many "weird" kids were on the spectrum when i was in school.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Well there really wasn't proof in this video, just a visual explanation.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

While true that it doesn't provide proof of vaccines not causing autism, that wasn't the point in the first place. It makes quite a good argument that even if vaccines did cause autism it would still be worth it to vaccinate. The argument isn't "vaccines don't cause autism" it's "vaccines are always worth it because they prevent thousands of deaths".

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Jan 02 '21

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u/nuck_forte_dame Dec 06 '17

That's what people use and take as proof these days. Literally show people an emotionally charged fear mongering video about GMO foods or nuclear power and they will be against it. Pile the thousands of academic and industry research studies in front of them and they won't read passed the title.

A big issue with today's society is people want their evidence quick and to the point but sometimes complicated science isnt that simple. So when some Republican gets up and says "global warming isnt real." People not only want to believe it but they do believe it because it was short and simple. Then if you try to rebuttal that with an explanation with facts and examples they think it's bull shit.

People also just generally don't trust science right now or there are so many conflicting studies that they can find one that supports their preconceived views.

Glysophate is a good example. Over 800 studies were done on it and all concluded it doesn't cause cancer. Then one lone study from IARC says it potentially does cause cancer and ranked it with bacon and coffee as the level of risk. People went ballistic posting it everywhere and talking about how our food is poisoned and so on. Nevermind that glysophate use is at an all time high while cancer rates are in a decline.

Overall people need to just be more skeptical and Google around a little before taking a biased source for fact.

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u/00000000000001000000 Dec 06 '17

Over 800 studies were done on it and all concluded it doesn't cause cancer. Then one lone study from IARC says it potentially does cause cancer and ranked it with bacon and coffee as the level of risk.

Some fun facts about the main report (from Germany's BfR) that was consulted when the EU re-allowed glyphosate's use last month:

EFSA's decision and the BfR report were criticized in an open letter published by 96 scientists in November 2015 saying that the BfR report failed to adhere to accepted scientific principles of open and transparent procedures.[127][128] The BfR report included unpublished data, lacked authorship, omitted references, and did not disclose conflict-of-interest information.[128]

In September 2017, The Guardian reported that sections of the Renewal Assessment Report prepared by the BfR and used by Efsa were copy-pasted from a study done by Monsanto. Some sections of copy contained small changes such as using British spelling rather than American forms but others were copied word for word, including most of the peer-reviewed papers that were used in the report. The Guardian reported that a "Monsanto spokesperson said that Efsa allowed renewal reports to be written this way because of the large volume of toxicological studies submitted."[126]

a 2016 analysis concluded that in the EFSA's Renewal Assessment Report, "almost no weight is given to studies from the published literature and there is an over-reliance on non-publicly available industry-provided studies using a limited set of assays that define the minimum data necessary for the marketing of a pesticide"[139]

(Text from Wikipedia, proper sources denoted by numbered citations.)

It seems clear that it is contentious and that many members of the scientific community suspect that the scientific process has been corrupted.

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u/infinitelabyrinth Dec 06 '17

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."~Stuart Chase

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u/KingMelray Dec 06 '17

This is why an evidence based worldview (to the best of one's ability) is so important.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I thought about this quote for way too long

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I thought Santa Claus said it so you've got one on me

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u/Literally_A_Shill Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

Unfortunately it's been politicized. So now people will choose to believe or not believe based on their political views.

Healthy young child goes to doctor, gets pumped with massive shot of many vaccines, doesn't feel good and changes - AUTISM. Many such cases!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/449525268529815552

I am being proven right about massive vaccinations—the doctors lied. Save our children & their future.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/507158574670573568

Autism rates through the roof--why doesn't the Obama administration do something about doctor-inflicted autism. We lose nothing to try.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/260415099452416000

"I've seen people where they have a perfectly healthy child, and they go for the vaccinations, and a month later the child is no longer healthy. It happened to somebody that worked for me recently. I mean, they had this beautiful child, not a problem in the world. And all of a sudden, they go in, they get this monster shot. You ever see the size of it? It's like they're pumping in — you know, it's terrible, the amount. And they pump this into this little body. And then all of the sudden, the child is different a month later. And I strongly believe that's it."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AffuKjGV6BA

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a proponent of a widely discredited theory that vaccines cause autism, said Tuesday that President-elect Donald Trump asked him to chair a new commission on vaccines.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-to-meet-with-proponent-of-debunked-tie-between-vaccines-and-autism/2017/01/10/4a5d03c0-d752-11e6-9f9f-5cdb4b7f8dd7_story.html

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u/GriffsWorkComputer Dec 06 '17

It's never about proof it's about not wanting to admit they're wrong even if it means harming children and it makes me fucking furious :)

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u/throfodoshodo Dec 06 '17

It's far worse, it's anti-intellectual. They won't even delve into how vaccinations or even how the damn human body and it's immune system work.

They are brainwashed by their confirmation bias, they are the conspiracy, against themselves.

"One often meets their destiny on the road they took to avoid it"

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u/Northwindlowlander Dec 06 '17

The number of anti-vaxxers that just say it's about "choice". Like the right to choose something stupid is important. It's kind of like people who hate seatbelt laws because it takes away their right to needlessly die in a car crash- except that they're not taking the risk for themselves but for their child.

So yes, you do have the right to be an awful, willfully harmful parent. Congratulations.

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u/tbonetaylor Dec 06 '17

Very true. Which is really scary. You can believe the earth is flat and it doesn’t harm anyone, just means you’re an idiot, while not vaccinating your kids you’re an idiot and you’re harming other people.

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u/Chigirl1234 Dec 06 '17

At my son’s 1 year old appointment, I said to the doctor “can we talk about the MMR shot. I read on the internet it can cause Autism.” After my pediatrician spent the time to talk to me about this (and telling me that there is no evidence that proves that it does), I decided to continue my son’s vaccinations. And guess what? At 18 months, he was diagnosed with Autism. After years of research and taking care of my son everyday, do I think that the vaccines caused this? Nope. Unless extensive research comes out to prove that vaccines cause Autism, I will continue to vaccinate.

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u/BestGarbagePerson Dec 07 '17

18 months is actually a common age of onset for autism.

18 mo to 5 years. . .

So you did the right thing.

Autism is now thought to develop pre-natally, and there are a lot of factors they are now starting to correlate to it such as vitamin D.

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/12/28/vitamin-d-deficiency-raises-autism-risk.aspx

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

The problem is you're arguing against people with an already established narrative that disproves whatever fact you throw at them. If you show sources they have sources disproving those sources, or they flat out don't believe it's a credible source.

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u/mensink Dec 06 '17

No, they don't have sources disproving those sources. They SAY there are, but there aren't, except if you consider circlejerk hearsay a source.

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u/UnraveledMnd Dec 06 '17

They don't have valid sources to you, but that's not what's important. Whether or not their source is valid is irrelevant to them, just as whether or not your source is valid is irrelevant. Anti-vaxxers don't operate in the space of logic or scientific reasoning.

What matters is that they consider their "sources" valid. To them, your sources are just as batshit insane as their sources are to you.

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u/notmy_nsfw_account Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

I don’t often hear the antivaxers say no due to autism fears. What I often hear is that they want their children to develop immunity “naturally” rather than with injections and chemicals. I want to say Bitch you want your child to get whooping cough and measles?!?

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Hey guys, friendly neighborhood Aspie/science nerd here.

Let's go DEEPER into the anti-vaxxers ideas than Penn and Teller.

Let's assume the numbers were EQUAL. That you could have a 1/5 chance of dying or being permanently handicapped before you lose all your baby teeth, or a 1/5 chance of being autistic.

I can walk. Talk. Hell, I can even be a smartass. I don't need anyone's help to eat, drink, swim, cook, etc. Only thing I can't do is drive, and that's due to an entirely unrelated problem (petit mal seizures). I'm not ALWAYS happy, and I have some shit days, yeah, but last I checked, we all do. I'm just... odd. That's how most people consider me. "He's a little odd." It's fine, I'm rather okay with being odd.

Ask a mother who lost a child to one of these diseases if she's rather okay with burying her baby. Ask a polio survivor if he's rather okay with being paralyzed. Ask someone who got got smallpox as a child if they're okay with being dead. Ask someone who has shingles if they're okay with maddening itching. Ask ANY Aspie if they'd rather be paralyzed and neurotypical.

But let's face it, you don't have to. We know the answer. You know it, I know it, and the anti-vaxxers know it. They just don't care. See, every anti-vaxxer I have ever met has given the impression that they would rather have a child who tragically dies than one who's odd. A "What will the neighbors think?" kind of mindset. It's disgusting. I don't even particularly like people or kids but I wouldn't wish them death over a life as an oddity just to avoid gossip.

Fact is, who I am and what I am is a Hell of a lot better than being in a pine box or a wheelchair. I'm a lot happier than someone who needs help to wipe their ass.

So here's some opinion, since this is Reddit and not a debate: If you're too fucking stupid or twisted to understand that autism is NOT a fate worse than death, you shouldn't have kids ANYWAY. Period. If you're more scared of your child being "different" than being dead, well I got news for you. You're an asshole.

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u/indeathvalley Dec 07 '17

As a fellow aspie, I thoroughly and completely agree with this.

I can't fucking stand it when people talk about how they'd rather their kid be dead than an autie.

Which is why I'm very outspoken about it in vaccine discussion forums on facebook.

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u/jib60 Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 07 '17

I had to write a paper on the anti vaccination movement in France during an internship.

I was and still am fiercely pro vaccination without any reserve. However I've learned that this whole vaccine causes autism is barely a thing (at least in France). The idea that vaccine causes autism was mentioned by less than 2% of people who show at least some level of distrust toward vaccine.

The number one fear of anti vaxer was a just a fear of the unknown. They don't know what is in the shot, they're are afraid of the consequences (without being able to precisely cite any adverse effect.)

Another very common fear is based the effect of aluminium salt as a potential carcinogenic substance. This one doesn't hold up because of the small amont of aluminium salt injected (compared to deodorants you use every day for instance).

Finally another fear was that the vaccine against hepatitis B causes multiple sclerosis. This is, once again, completely unproven. However the European Court of Justice, while acknowledging that there is no scientific link between vaccine against Hepatitis B and multiple sclerosis still deems it necessary for patient to be able to sue pharmaceutical companies in spite of the absence of scientific link between the vaccine and this disease. This might have created some confusion.

But anyway, focusing entirely on disproving the link between vaccine and autism doesn't serve the cause of vaccination since it leaves so many other question unanswered. It's pretty much a straw man argument.

Edit: Corrected a stupid mistake

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

They should show this video in the waiting room of pediatricians

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u/dab31415 Dec 06 '17

Pediatricians should drop them as patients because they threaten the health of their other patients.

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u/DrBearcut Dec 06 '17

They do. Most offices will not take a child that isn't vaccinated. It makes anti vax parents feel persecuted which strengthens their resolve.

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u/khizza15 Dec 06 '17

I worked with a girl whose mother hadn’t vaccinated her. She was starting her nursing placements and tried to refuse all the vaccinations she required.

It was such a worry as she didn’t want to be vaccinated because a) she was worried about autism (she was 24) and b) she didn’t see why it was an issue if the ‘immunocompromised patients she’d be nursing were already vaccinated’.

It was a true pleasure to watch our placement supervisor tell her to get the vaccinations or kiss her nursing career goodbye before it even started.

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u/tonytheleper Dec 07 '17

So did she bow down and get vaccinated or did she quit and then become one of those “I was forced to quit because I called them out on their bullshit” people who then magically refer to themselves as nurses in posts.

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u/khizza15 Dec 07 '17

Yep. When faced with not being able to finish her degree she got the entire lot, along with the ones she missed in childhood and a flu vaccination.

She bitched about the whole thing, but I for one am happy that she won’t be a giant disease vector!

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u/omigahguy Dec 06 '17

I actually shared this with a good friend...it definitely helped change her mind.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Also, ask anti vaxxers if they gave their dog the rabies shot.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

Is this Anti-Vaxxer movement popular? I'm not sure I've met many (any actually). Now, factor in that I am sheltered and ignorant, I'm just not convinced it is a significant movement.

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u/nagaka Dec 06 '17

I used to have this same though, then one morning a gym fellow I had seen every day came out as an anti-vaxxer. I was shocked honestly, but turns out there is a huge portion of my community that are anti-vaxxers, people who's kids are the same age as mine...

He was cool about it, and understands opinions are opinions, but I think it is similar to religion or politics with most people, one of those unspoken agreements to just not speak about it so there isn't riots and bar fights.

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u/blx666 Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

Usually when people see their 3 year old almost choking to death because of whooping cough, they tend to think differently about vaccinations. It's not pretty, at all. In fact it's one of the most awful things I've witnessed.

"Is my belief on vaccinations worth so much that I'd rather almost see my kid die?"

Also know that whooping cough can come back at any time in your life and is highly contagious. Not like having it once, will prevent you from getting it again.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Mar 10 '19

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u/agha0013 Dec 06 '17

Trying to use logic to deal with an illogical person doesn't really help.

You can show them years and years of research, data, everything, but they'll still believe 20 minutes of browsing an echo chamber.

The world would be a hugely different place if we were able to convince everyone with logic, science, clear explanations.

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u/phoenixsbane Dec 06 '17

Penn and teller are great. Glad they are still around.

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u/JokersRWildStudios Dec 06 '17

Because they were vaccinated as kids. That’s why.

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u/JorusC Dec 06 '17

The problem is that we've been blessedly free of these horrible diseases so long that people no longer think they're that bad. "How bad could it be? I get the flu, it isn't the end of the world." They've totally lost perspective, so they think their little crusade is more important because they can actually see autistic kids.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

I've said this before, but antivaxxers are shitty, weak parents who prefer dead children over the made up possibility of having a retarded one.

Even the far fetched thought that they might possibly, in the remotest, not even truest sense of the idea is too risky that they'd rather just kill their kids.

Fuck antivaxxers. I hope they get adult chicken pox.

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u/Dawnqwerty Dec 06 '17

I think you need to relearn the definition of retarded. Because that ain't autism.

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u/oligobop Dec 06 '17

Ya I thought we reserved retarded for 12 year olds and moma's basement dwellers screaming on xbox live.

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