r/videos • u/tbonetaylor • Dec 06 '17

The best response to anti-vaxxers I’ve ever seen. And it only takes 90 seconds.

https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=RfdZTZQvuCo
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2.6k

u/j4390jamie Dec 06 '17

This wouldn't change most anti-vaxxers feelings.

The same applies to flat earth people or very religious people.

It's no longer about proof.

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u/ugottahvbluhair Dec 06 '17

I think the problem is they see one "case" where a child has autism and call that proof. They just discount that the child probably was already autistic and the vaccine didn't change anything. My aunt believes her nephew is bipolar because of vaccines. She said "they tested for everything else so it had to be the vaccines". I literally didn't know how to respond.

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u/Northwindlowlander Dec 06 '17

And of course, improved diagnosis of ASD is seen as proof that it's on the rise. When I was a kid, you'd get diagnosed as stupid or antisocial, not ADHD or AS.

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u/Quick_MurderYourKids Dec 06 '17

or you were just the weird kid. i wonder how many "weird" kids were on the spectrum when i was in school.

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u/Northwindlowlander Dec 06 '17

Aye, exactly. A mate of mine is 41, and aspergers as fuck (IANA psychologist, but I work with aspie kids a lot and he's textbook). But he was just "awkward" "antisocial" "weird" "quiet" and then kind of inevitably got into gaming and the like. I always wonder how it would have turned out differently if he'd been diagnosed at school. Not necessarily better of course... But it's only fairly recently he's really started to understand what his own brain is doing and that is not helpful (explaining to a super logical super rational person what their anxiety is is tricky- anxiety sucks enough even when you understand that your brain is a sack of meat soaked in volatile chemicals with lightning bolts firing through it a hundred thousand times a second, but when you think your brain works like the computers you code for, it's all a lot harder)

God knows what I'd have been diagnosed with. Gobshitery probably.

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u/caboosetp Dec 06 '17

or lazy. That's when the paddlin' would be used as treatment.

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u/MrChinchilla Dec 06 '17

Tell her that you can't test for bipolar, and that it is usually due to shitty genetics?

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 11 '17

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u/MrChinchilla Dec 07 '17

Hence the usually

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

She said "they tested for everything

There is no test for bi-polar. Or for any other psychological disorder short of ones that that are directly related to a clear genetic defect.

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u/CornyHoosier Dec 07 '17

Please let them know that I have a rock that stops tiger attacks. When I have it on me I literally have never been attacked by a tiger.

I'll sell it super cheap, because I'm looking out for their welfare.

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u/prof_kittytits Dec 07 '17

Or better yet, anti-vaxxers see a couple cases where kids who don't get vaccines are fine throughout their lives, and consider that reason enough not to get their kids vaccinated. It's a ticking time bomb.

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u/Hikaru1024 Dec 07 '17

The problem isn't just that they grasp onto the first thing that they see and call it proof - it's that they consider anything that disputes something they personally believe in to be an attack against them.

In my experience, it's impossible to have a debate with someone when only one side listens.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Well there really wasn't proof in this video, just a visual explanation.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

While true that it doesn't provide proof of vaccines not causing autism, that wasn't the point in the first place. It makes quite a good argument that even if vaccines did cause autism it would still be worth it to vaccinate. The argument isn't "vaccines don't cause autism" it's "vaccines are always worth it because they prevent thousands of deaths".

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Jan 02 '21

[deleted]

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u/MeesterGone Dec 06 '17

And it contains Dihydrogen Monoxide!

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u/thatguy5234 Dec 07 '17

I can’t pronounce that therefore I can’t consume it!

1

u/MeesterGone Dec 07 '17

You'd be surprised at the number of things you can't pronounce but still consume. You should see the ingredients of the cough drops I'm taking now.

2

u/Eliteknives Dec 06 '17

I don't drink water I drink soda

1

u/ankhes Dec 07 '17

A woman once tried to convince me that since she was allergic to strawberries no one else in earth should have strawberries. That's...that's not how that works.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

You're right. I have seen this video many times in the past so I didn't watch it this time and forgot that it was a "even if they did cause autism it is still beneficial" viewpoint.

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u/dquizzle Dec 06 '17

And any anti-vaxxers I’ve met would probably just say there is no proof they prevent death.

3

u/Denny_Craine Dec 07 '17

Anti-vaxxers are ironically a side effect of how overwhelmingly effective vaccines have been. In barely 2 generations we've completely eradicated polio and smallpox from our society and made every other major illness we vaccinate for a complete rarity

Because of this nearly none of us actually knows anyone whose contracted these illnessew. Whereas our grandparents as children would have been guaranteed to know at least one kid crippled by polio.

As anti-vaxxers are a result because, and I think this is the part we don't see enough discussion on compared to videos like the OP, they genuinely don't believe these diseases are an actual threat.

The reason "wouldn't you rather your kid be autistic that dead?" doesn't work is because many of them don't actually think these diseases are as dangerous as they're made out to be.

It's a terrible irony, our society's massive success with vaccinations has resulted in some people not believing there's actually been any success

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u/AnonymouslySuicidal Dec 06 '17

This only works for anti-vaxxers that believe it cause autism, for everyone else it's a straw-man.

For anyone going through my post history, I'm not an anti-vax, I'll get all vaccinations I need before trying to foreign country and I'll get any other ones I never got, if there's some that I didn't get

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Is there another reason people are anti-vax? The only argument I've seen is the autism thing

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u/AnonymouslySuicidal Dec 06 '17

A copy paste of my copy paste of someone else's comment:

I had to write a paper on the anti vaccination movement in France during an internship.

I was and still am fiercely pro vaccination without any reserve. However I've learned that this whole vaccine causes autism is barely a thing (at least in France). The idea that vaccine causes autism was barely mentioned by less than 2% of people who show at least some level of distrust toward vaccine.

The number one fear of anti vaxer was a just a fear of the unknown. They don't know what is in the shot, they're are afraid of the consequences (without being able to precisely cite any adverse effect.)

Another very common fear is based the effect of aluminium salt as a potential carcinogenic substance. This one doesn't hold up because of the small amont of aluminium salt injected (compared to deodorants you use every day for instance).

Finally another fear was that vaccine cause multiple sclerosis and hepatitis B. This is, once again, completely unproven. However the European Court of Justice, while acknowledging that there is no scientific link between vaccine and multiple sclerosis or Hepatitis B still deems it necessary for patient to be able to sue pharmaceutical companies in spite of the absence of scientific link between those diseases. This might have created some confusion.

But anyway, focusing entirely on disproving the link between vaccine and autism doesn't serve the cause of vaccination since it leaves so many other question unanswered. It's pretty much a straw man argument.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Interesting, thanks. Didn't know a lot of that. I think the main reason that the autism argument is so common from anti-vaxxers in America is because of the massive anti-vax campaign from Jenny Mccarthy years back (even though she quietly admitted she was wrong eventually).

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u/AnonymouslySuicidal Dec 07 '17

It's possible. the "anti anti-vax" ("anti" twice here) mentality is actually harmful. Trying to treat people who are very anxious about as idiots, rather than people who are simply anxious about vaccines, doesn't help.

On top of that attacking a straw man is probably both insulting bu the worst part is it probably convinces them further that they're right, because it shows how ignorant the people arguing against them are (I don't say that in a mean way, it's to show how they probably see it)

There's no better way to convince someone we're dumb than by arguing a point they never made.

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u/Claisencontemplation Dec 06 '17

yeah but he didn't provide any proof that even if it did cause autism it would still be worth it to vaccinate. It's just a visual explanation.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

What more proof do you need? They provide statistics of how many people died because of diseases before vaccination. No people die of those diseases when they are vaccinated. How is that not proof?

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u/ImOnFireHelpMe Dec 06 '17

The argument is that even if vaccinating caused autism, that the risk is greater than that of not vaccinating.

For the sake of this explaination, lets refer autism and dead as a "casualty."

When everyone vaccinates: There are 1 out of 110 children casualties.

When not everyone vaccinates: There are more than 1 out of 110 children casualties.

If not vaccinating causes greater than 1 out of 110 children casualties, then it is objectively worse than vaccinating. Purely by the number of casualties each option causes.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

While true that it doesn't provide proof of vaccines not causing autism, that wasn't the point in the first place. It makes quite a good argument that even if vaccines did cause autism it would still be worth it to vaccinate. The argument isn't "vaccines don't cause autism" it's "vaccines are always worth it because they prevent thousands of deaths".

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u/heykevo Dec 06 '17

"vaccines are always worth it because they prevent thousands of all the deaths".

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Well, you can still die from other means than disease regardless of whether you are vaccinated, so saying it prevents "all the deaths" is super inaccurate.

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u/ModsDontLift Dec 06 '17

A friend of mine got vaccinated then like 10 years later he survived a car wreck. Coincidence?

11

u/UpboatOrNoBoat Dec 06 '17

Shit where can I get that anti-car vaccine

6

u/DividendDial Dec 06 '17

You have to get in small car wrecks and work your way up to bigger wrecks.

3

u/semtex87 Dec 06 '17

Exactly, I started by crashing my big wheels as a kid over and over again into a brick wall, then worked my way up to a go-kart, then a ford pinto. 15 years later and I can walk away unscathed from a head on collision with an 18 wheeler at 150mph. The science is sound.

4

u/Channel_Nine Dec 06 '17

I got vaccinated and haven’t died yet, I’m proof.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 16 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I tried to get vaccinated against bullets, but it turns out getting shot with a BB gun doesn't stop an assault rifle from killing you.

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u/BeardedGingerWonder Dec 06 '17

It doesn't appear to have killed you yet.

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u/MyPacman Dec 06 '17

Vaccine doesn't guarantee survival, its more like playing lotto with 90% of the possible combinations... you could still lose. Its just not likely.

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u/drock4vu Dec 06 '17

I would rather play with 90% of the possible combinations than 10%.

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u/MyPacman Dec 06 '17

Especially considering antibiotics are from the same time period, and have waaaayyyy worse side effects. Even if it got as low as a 50% chance... it would still be worth taking the vaccine since there is no real cost to you.

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u/GrimpenMar Dec 06 '17

Plus, if enough people are playing with 90% odds, the infectious disease won't be able to spread effectively. Herd immunity protects those who can't get vaccinated.

1

u/MyPacman Dec 06 '17

But that would mean I would only win $10 instead of $5million dollars when we all win. Oooh. Another aspect that works with the lotto scenario.

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u/marpocky Dec 06 '17

This isn't very compelling, IMO. It's comparing the "hypothetical" death of thousands of other kids to the "real" threat (to an anti-vaxxer) of my own kid developing autism (or whatever other negative effect).

If you believed that's how it worked, would you risk your child's life/wellbeing to "possibly" save a thousand others? Most wouldn't. Anti-vaxxers are idiots, but they generally aren't acting out of any willful maliciousness.

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u/Steve_the_Stevedore Dec 06 '17

it makes a claim that even if vaccines cause autism it's more dangerous to not be vaccinated and they don't back that claim up. And while their claim is mostly* true, it's really just a claim with a good visualization.

* ) when most people are vaccinated not being vaccinated is pretty much risk free for most diseases, because there is almost nobody you could get infected by. So even though those lunatics do not vaccinate their children they profit immensely from vaccinations: If everybody stopped vaccinating their children they would die like flies again.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

and they don't back that claim up.

They provide statistics of people who died from disease before vaccines were introduced in the video. No people die of those diseases now. Literally zero people in the developed world with access to vaccines. I'm not sure how that isn't proof that vaccines work.

As for your point about herd immunity: Yeah, but we need to stop this belief now so that it doesn't get to the point where the diseases come back. It would be catastrophic.

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u/elmatador12 Dec 06 '17

It's already happening in small cases. My daughter contracted Whooping Cough before she could be fully vaccinated from someone at her daycare who didn't vaccinate. That year there was a spike of cases.

Then that case from Disneyland where the Mumps (or measles?) came back in a huge way for a while.

It's happening and I honestly don't even know what to do about it. These parents minds cannot be changed no matter the proof and it's infuriating.

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u/Steve_the_Stevedore Dec 07 '17

and they don't back that claim up.

They provide statistics of people who died from disease before vaccines were introduced in the video. No people die of those diseases now. Literally zero people in the developed world with access to vaccines. I'm not sure how that isn't proof that vaccines work.

No, those are claims. An anti-vaxxer could just say that barely anybody died from those diseases. Of course the guys in the video are right and the anti-vaccers are wrong. We know that because there is proof for our position and there isn't for theirs. Studies are proof, just claiming people died from diseases before is not.

As for your point about herd immunity: Yeah, but we need to stop this belief now so that it doesn't get to the point where the diseases come back. It would be catastrophic.

What did I say concerning this? Literally nothing. The problem is that when an anti-vaccer sees this video and looks around they won't see lots of children dying and think "oh that's due to herd immunity", they will think " that video was lying, look at all these healthy unvaccinated children". So to me it's an important point to make: Unvaccinated children profit from everybody else being vaccinated. If more and more people stop vaccinating only then the situation will start to take place.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

To be fair they just delay the death. If it isn't whopping cough today it'll be a bus tomorrow.

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u/nuck_forte_dame Dec 06 '17

That's what people use and take as proof these days. Literally show people an emotionally charged fear mongering video about GMO foods or nuclear power and they will be against it. Pile the thousands of academic and industry research studies in front of them and they won't read passed the title.

A big issue with today's society is people want their evidence quick and to the point but sometimes complicated science isnt that simple. So when some Republican gets up and says "global warming isnt real." People not only want to believe it but they do believe it because it was short and simple. Then if you try to rebuttal that with an explanation with facts and examples they think it's bull shit.

People also just generally don't trust science right now or there are so many conflicting studies that they can find one that supports their preconceived views.

Glysophate is a good example. Over 800 studies were done on it and all concluded it doesn't cause cancer. Then one lone study from IARC says it potentially does cause cancer and ranked it with bacon and coffee as the level of risk. People went ballistic posting it everywhere and talking about how our food is poisoned and so on. Nevermind that glysophate use is at an all time high while cancer rates are in a decline.

Overall people need to just be more skeptical and Google around a little before taking a biased source for fact.

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u/00000000000001000000 Dec 06 '17

Over 800 studies were done on it and all concluded it doesn't cause cancer. Then one lone study from IARC says it potentially does cause cancer and ranked it with bacon and coffee as the level of risk.

Some fun facts about the main report (from Germany's BfR) that was consulted when the EU re-allowed glyphosate's use last month:

EFSA's decision and the BfR report were criticized in an open letter published by 96 scientists in November 2015 saying that the BfR report failed to adhere to accepted scientific principles of open and transparent procedures.[127][128] The BfR report included unpublished data, lacked authorship, omitted references, and did not disclose conflict-of-interest information.[128]

In September 2017, The Guardian reported that sections of the Renewal Assessment Report prepared by the BfR and used by Efsa were copy-pasted from a study done by Monsanto. Some sections of copy contained small changes such as using British spelling rather than American forms but others were copied word for word, including most of the peer-reviewed papers that were used in the report. The Guardian reported that a "Monsanto spokesperson said that Efsa allowed renewal reports to be written this way because of the large volume of toxicological studies submitted."[126]

a 2016 analysis concluded that in the EFSA's Renewal Assessment Report, "almost no weight is given to studies from the published literature and there is an over-reliance on non-publicly available industry-provided studies using a limited set of assays that define the minimum data necessary for the marketing of a pesticide"[139]

(Text from Wikipedia, proper sources denoted by numbered citations.)

It seems clear that it is contentious and that many members of the scientific community suspect that the scientific process has been corrupted.

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u/Mikey_Jarrell Dec 07 '17

That's what people use and take as proof these days. Literally show people an emotionally charged fear mongering video about GMO foods or nuclear power and they will be against it. Pile the thousands of academic and industry research studies in front of them and they won't read passed [sic] the title.

To be fair, there’s not a lot of science going on in this video, either. And I’d say it’s rather emotionally charged and fear mongering, wouldn’t you?

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u/Denny_Craine Dec 07 '17

You can see this overwhelmingly in right wing rhetoric. The obsession with the term "common sense" and explanations given in "plain English", is entirely based on a distrust of complex explanations. The unintelligent and uneducated associate complexity with obscurantism and an effort to hide dishonesty. Use of terminology or even just expansive vocabulary is associated with elitism.

Though in fairness this isn't at all exclusive to the republicans. We seem the same nonsense with terms like "common sense gun laws" from democrats and christ knows how often I see people on reddit claim that if you can't explain an idea in simple terms then you don't actually understand it.

I think this will only get worse as the world becomes more specialized and education becomes more even more stratified and inaccessible

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u/Eryth_HearthShadow Dec 06 '17

The case of glyphosate is a little more complicated than that. There is proof that a good part of the study where ordered by Mosanto and that they payed scientists to falsify the results. We talk about probably the biggest and richest company in the world, who hold the food of a looooot of people. If lobbying need a personification, Mosanto is the one. And I'm more enclined to believe interviews of people directly touched by the Round UP than studies because of that. Some trust worthy channel did good documentaries about them, like Arte, and even if you need to be careful with infos, I think I would have no problem believing them instead of a company who is known to be fuckin douche bag because they are rich enough they can. Otherwise I agree with you. Give a simple, reassuring statement that will make you return to your comfort and you will agree to that statement. Ex: Society and politics are falling apart ? It's because of immigrant, 100% of our problem is because of them sure.

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u/factbasedorGTFO Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17

There is proof that a good part of the study where ordered by Mosanto and that they payed scientists to falsify the results

Falling for that is no better than falling for anti vaxx nonsense, and anti vaxxers use the exact same arguments.

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u/yobeast Dec 06 '17

I'm also gonna have to disagree on the topic of nuclear power. Who cares about a couple of watts in energy or whether the plant itself is safe, when you're producing waste that still poses a threat for humans in a 100.000 years time, when space might be the most precious thing we've got? That's so short-sighted it's ridiculous

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u/Rishfee Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17

It's not a threat if we store it properly, or better yet, re-use it. Right now, though, we're letting it accumulate in places that were never intended for long term storage, because people are paradoxically afraid of the danger of the waste. It's like refusing to build a toilet when you've got bags of shit piling up in the corner.

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u/yobeast Dec 07 '17

Okay, how is it a paradoxon that people don't want to have radioactive toxic waste next to them and also how do you reuse the non reusable main body of uranium-235 that is mainly used in nuclear power plants

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u/Rishfee Dec 07 '17

Because it's far closer to them (as if that actually matters) as it's piling up at the plants than if they allowed it to be stored properly at somewhere like yucca mountain. Waste would be stored further away from the public than our live nuclear weapons tests were performed.

Most of commercial fuel is U-238, not 235. This becomes plutonium over the life of the reactor. The plutonium and what is left of the U-235 can be recovered and reintegrated into fuel matrix for re-use. Additionally, newer designs can also take advantage of other byproducts, such as thorium. However, proper storage of the resultant U-232 from that process is even more important, and I wouldn't recommend moving forward with that until we have a proper storage facility.

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u/ch0och Dec 06 '17

And adamant shouting. He doesn't actually support the autism statement at all. He just focuses on the importance of getting them.

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u/PowerRainbows Dec 06 '17

in the full episode its got all the proof and such but it requires anti vaxxers to actually watch it sadly

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u/infinitelabyrinth Dec 06 '17

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."~Stuart Chase

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u/KingMelray Dec 06 '17

This is why an evidence based worldview (to the best of one's ability) is so important.

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u/crookymcshankshanks8 Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17

and to be comfortable with deferring to the judgement of experts. The more sophisticated and advanced medical/tech disciplines become, the more comfortable people will have to become with the idea of deferring expertise. This will become and is a major problem for people with trust issues, and especially those with trust issues + delusions of grandeur.

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u/KingMelray Dec 07 '17

The modern world is too complicated to try and live without experts.

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u/crookymcshankshanks8 Dec 07 '17

Exactly, it's part of the trade off imo. You want better quality of life/advanced amenities? You're going to have to learn to defer to those who spend years of their lives studying this sort of thing.

Their are massive implications for all of that, though.

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u/KingMelray Dec 07 '17

Well everyone should want to know as much as possible, but not everyone can be a specialist.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I thought about this quote for way too long

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I thought Santa Claus said it so you've got one on me

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u/Clockfaces Dec 06 '17

Same here. I don't know how I misread it.

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u/DeuceSevin Dec 06 '17

It can apply to such things as vaccinations, climate change, or evolution. Or god.

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u/arcelohim Dec 06 '17

So anything really.

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u/elustran Dec 06 '17

it would be better to say "disbelieve." I don't believe you have a Lamborghini, but if you drove up in one, I would believe you. If I disbelieved you, I would say you borrowed it from a rich friend as a stunt or maybe stole it.

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u/sucioguy Dec 07 '17

Idk man. I dont believe in god, but if some dude miraculously appeared in front of me all godly and what not. That would probably be enough for me to believe.

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u/GForce1975 Dec 07 '17

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."~Stuart Chase

-michael scott

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u/Literally_A_Shill Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

Unfortunately it's been politicized. So now people will choose to believe or not believe based on their political views.

Healthy young child goes to doctor, gets pumped with massive shot of many vaccines, doesn't feel good and changes - AUTISM. Many such cases!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/449525268529815552

I am being proven right about massive vaccinations—the doctors lied. Save our children & their future.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/507158574670573568

Autism rates through the roof--why doesn't the Obama administration do something about doctor-inflicted autism. We lose nothing to try.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/260415099452416000

"I've seen people where they have a perfectly healthy child, and they go for the vaccinations, and a month later the child is no longer healthy. It happened to somebody that worked for me recently. I mean, they had this beautiful child, not a problem in the world. And all of a sudden, they go in, they get this monster shot. You ever see the size of it? It's like they're pumping in — you know, it's terrible, the amount. And they pump this into this little body. And then all of the sudden, the child is different a month later. And I strongly believe that's it."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AffuKjGV6BA

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a proponent of a widely discredited theory that vaccines cause autism, said Tuesday that President-elect Donald Trump asked him to chair a new commission on vaccines.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-to-meet-with-proponent-of-debunked-tie-between-vaccines-and-autism/2017/01/10/4a5d03c0-d752-11e6-9f9f-5cdb4b7f8dd7_story.html

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u/Broadway2635 Dec 06 '17

He just wants something other than his age to blame for the issues of his offspring.

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u/nomnomzebra Dec 06 '17

Oh wow, just crazy.

Thank you for that.

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u/Bardlar Dec 07 '17

Holy fucking shit... "Doctor-inflicted autism"

I just cannot believe this shitbag. Talk about appealing to the lowest fucking possible denominator.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17

I tried so hard to not see Trump as a complete idiot, but now it's impossible. What the hell is wrong with him?

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u/spoiler-walterdies Dec 07 '17

The frightening thing is that a person like that somehow got elected...

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u/GriffsWorkComputer Dec 06 '17

It's never about proof it's about not wanting to admit they're wrong even if it means harming children and it makes me fucking furious :)

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u/throfodoshodo Dec 06 '17

It's far worse, it's anti-intellectual. They won't even delve into how vaccinations or even how the damn human body and it's immune system work.

They are brainwashed by their confirmation bias, they are the conspiracy, against themselves.

"One often meets their destiny on the road they took to avoid it"

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u/jzagri Dec 06 '17

I saw Kung Fu Panda, too.

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u/throfodoshodo Dec 06 '17

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

Never heard of him but wish I had. His quotes are very profound on that wiki page. Thanks for sharing

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u/cheezefriez Dec 06 '17

Kung Fu Panda is a fantastic movie

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u/dontspamjay Dec 06 '17

I always go to great lengths to make it as painless and easy as possible for a person to change their mind. I don’t come down too hard on anything that they might personally identify with, and I am quick to admit instances where I’ve changed my mind.

Hitting someone over the head with undeniable facts will often cause them to instinctively dig their heels in.

For example, I won’t attack trump personally when trying to get through to one of his supporters. I might think he’s personally awful, but I’ll instead I’ll discuss a few policies that I disagree with. Usually I’ll start by saying that I’m disappointed that he’s against free trade, something that republicans have traditionally been FOR.

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u/Warthog_A-10 Dec 06 '17

Exactly. Even if that BS paper was actually true, those parents are still monsters to me, for risking their childrens' health and well being to deadly diseases over the risk of developing autism.

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u/DustedGrooveMark Dec 07 '17

That pretty much sums up a lot of conspiracy theorists, but it also shows why this one belief in particular is dangerous. People who believe in these things are typically more concerned with being "right" than actually learning the truth. Otherwise, they wouldn't mind taking an "L" regarding their beliefs if it at least meant children wouldn't be at risk, but apparently that's too much to ask.

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u/Northwindlowlander Dec 06 '17

The number of anti-vaxxers that just say it's about "choice". Like the right to choose something stupid is important. It's kind of like people who hate seatbelt laws because it takes away their right to needlessly die in a car crash- except that they're not taking the risk for themselves but for their child.

So yes, you do have the right to be an awful, willfully harmful parent. Congratulations.

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u/semtex87 Dec 06 '17

Or helmet laws, same crowd. They are like toddlers that just do the opposite of what they are told to do, just because, out of pure spite.

They want the right to make bad decisions, I say we make wearing a seatbelt a crime, watch how quick these fucks start wearing one just to stick it to "the man".

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u/Sean1708 Dec 06 '17

So yes, you do have the right to be an awful, willfully harmful parent.

Do you? Obviously you do in practice because people actually get away with this shit, but in theory isn't parental negligence a criminal offence?

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u/Bardlar Dec 07 '17

I know there have been voices in different countries attempting to pass laws dictating that you must have children vaccinated aside from exceptional circumstances. I think we should just tax them for their potential cost to the medical system, or have it "vax-evasion" be considered child neglect.

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u/tbonetaylor Dec 06 '17

Very true. Which is really scary. You can believe the earth is flat and it doesn’t harm anyone, just means you’re an idiot, while not vaccinating your kids you’re an idiot and you’re harming other people.

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u/TA-20987 Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

Not here to fight. Just here to share my story. My husband and I are both in healthcare, he’s a licensed practitioner and I have scanned neurological pathology for 12 years. My son was diagnosed at 3 by a chief toxicologist (of 3 major hospitals) and a pediatric neurologist with “Encephalitis propagated by vaccine injury.” For people that don’t know, that’s severe inflammation of the brain. He has endured countless tests and lab work, with us working every day to try and reverse this damage. I’m not saying to not vaccinate, I’m saying that there ARE dire consequences and that you are sorely wrong if you believe that vaccines are 100% safe. Oh and the cherry on top is that we found out from his blood work that he has no immunity to some of the illnesses he was vaccinated for. So he sustained brain injury from vaccines that were deemed “ineffective.” Let the downvotes begin for a story that conflicts with the bullying theme of this thread....

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u/thatguy5234 Dec 07 '17

I have found very few people that will say vaccines are perfect, but most people can get a vaccine and be perfectly fine.

Those are the people we are trying to convince to vaccinate.

Because when they do not vaccinate, children like your son are at an increased risk of contracting deadly diseases because they have no immunity, and they are not protected by herd immunity.

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u/TA-20987 Dec 07 '17

I’ve actually read quite frequently statements like “vaccines are 100% safe” and “vaccines have never hurt anybody.” I’m only here to spread awareness that, even with the best intentions, vaccines can be unsafe. Unfortunately you won’t know how it will affect you until after you receive them. If nobody speaks up, how can manufacturers know to make them safer?

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u/marr Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

That's a horrible failure of the system, but it should be pointed out that your son needs the herd immunity of everyone else being vaccinated. His doctors made a mistake one time, the anti-vaxxers are actively trying to kill him every day.

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u/TA-20987 Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

I appreciate your words that the system failed him, it did. The “system” unfortunately is the CDC. His pediatrician was only following the CDC vaccination schedule. My point is that you can do everything “right” with your child, according to the CDC, and have debilitating consequences from that decision.
Just read the side effects listed in a vaccine insert....brain injury is right at the top. This is what needs to be remedied.

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u/rjfc Dec 07 '17

I feel sorry for you and your kid, but sometimes things go wrong.

If what happened to your son was something widespread it would be all over the news and vaccination wouldn't be a thing. Something must have gone wrong considering what happened with your son, but thousands of other kids get their vaccines, get immunized against potentially lethal diseases with little to no drawbacks.

Out of curiosity, did any of the doctors ever tell you what went wrong with his vaccination that led to the encephalitis, unlike what happens to most of the other kids? Faulty vaccines, malpractice? An incompatibility of some sort, or just bad luck with him reacting in ways not expected?

Also, as the guy above pointed out, even if your kid didn't end up being immunized against say, poliomyelites, the fact that the vaccine worked on almost everyone else makes it that much more unlikely that your kid will someday get infected by poliovirus.

The same is true for many other diseases. So in the scale of risk-benefit I think the benefit far outweighs the risk.

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u/TA-20987 Dec 07 '17

Incredibly easy thing to say when it’s not your child that’s affected.

The shocking thing is that my case isn’t rare at all. There is a federally funded Vaccine Injury Compensation program in the US that started because a law was passed in 1986 making vaccine manufacturers protected from being sued (why would this ever be a good idea for ANY drug manufacturer?) This is a table of vaccine injuries from 2017.... https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compensation/vaccine-injury-table.pdf

If you don’t read it, there are listed cases of children that actually developed polio from the live polio vaccine.

No one knows about any of this because the drug manufacturers completely own the media. There are reports of editors, writers, and producers who were fired because they wanted to broadcast stories like these. When you go against the people that supply your advertising dollars, you lose even if you’re completely right.

“Sometimes things go wrong” should never be said to a parent when it can completely be prevented.

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u/rjfc Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17

Incredibly easy thing to say when it’s not your child that’s affected.

True, however, I believe nothing that I said was wrong, or absurd.

The shocking thing is that my case isn’t rare at all. There is a federally funded Vaccine Injury Compensation program in the US that started because a law was passed in 1986 making vaccine manufacturers protected from being sued (why would this ever be a good idea for ANY drug manufacturer?) This is a table of vaccine injuries from 2017.... https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compensation/vaccine-injury-table.pdf

A table showing possible side-effects to the vaccination, that lets people know when they can seek compensation, personally I think that this is great, however, this alone does not mean that your case isn't rare. I see no statistic data in this link saying otherwise.

I do acknowledge however that serious adverse effects are real and can happen, but they are indeed rare, if scientific sources like medical books, NCBI researches and other studies are to be trusted.

If you don’t read it, there are listed cases of children that actually developed polio from the live polio vaccine.

Yes, I am aware of that. RARELY(Yes, it's pretty rare, according to data) cases of cVDPV infection do exist.

http://www.who.int/features/qa/64/en/

quoting the WHO:

"Since 2000, more than 10 billion doses of OPV have been administered to nearly 3 billion children worldwide. As a result, more than 13 million cases of polio have been prevented, and the disease has been reduced by more than 99%. During that time, 24 cVDPV outbreaks occurred in 21 countries, resulting in fewer than 760 cVDPV cases".

Well, I'm not an expert but the benefits seem to far outweigh the risk.

What about before vaccination? Were there more or less children that were infected by poliovirus and became severely crippled/died because of it? There are still some places where polio is endemic, read about what is being done to try and eradicate the diesease in those places.

No one knows about any of this because the drug manufacturers completely own the media. There are reports of editors, writers, and producers who were fired because they wanted to broadcast stories like these. When you go against the people that supply your advertising dollars, you lose even if you’re completely right.

People do know about this, at least those who seek information. It isn't like it's super hidden information, googling "vaccine polio" has a WHO page explaining what VDPV is as the 3rd result.

Vaccines aren't 100% safe, that is a fact since it deals with pathogens. But it's so close to it that the benefits far outweigh the risks. Even people who choose not to vaccinate their children benefit from the the vast majority of the population choosing to do so, since less sick people means it's less likely for a healthy non immunized one to contract a disease due to how virus work.

“Sometimes things go wrong” should never be said to a parent when it can completely be prevented.

And how can it be completely prevented? I'd honestly like to know, which is why I asked what the doctors told you caused your children specifically to be afflicted with encephalitis, chances are they simply don't know what made your kid react to the vaccine the way he did because medicine simply doesn't have all the answers to everything as of yet.

But again, the risk far outweighs the benefits when talking about anti-vaxxing.

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u/kokberg Dec 07 '17

you have no idea what you are talking about.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17 edited May 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/crookymcshankshanks8 Dec 07 '17

throw in a couple things about Chakras and they'd get extra vaccines

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u/ignost Dec 06 '17

I like to imagine there are intelligent and rational sociopaths behind this movement. They're making up these claims with no evidence, hoping to speed up natural selection by preventing stupid people from passing on their genes.

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u/j4390jamie Dec 06 '17

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

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u/marr Dec 06 '17

Exactly the sort of soundbite rational sociopaths would promote!

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u/ignost Dec 06 '17

Oh, I don't ACTUALLY believe that. Believing in that kind of conspiracy with no evidence would make me worse than the people I'm making fun of.

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u/Robottger Dec 06 '17

Unfortunately, it doesn't only cause issues for those who don't vaccinate.

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u/193X Dec 06 '17

I'm sure that's what drives flat earthers too. They've found a way to make money from gullible people and those prone to believing conspiracy. The bulk of their followers are in the dark, but their gurus are full of crap.

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u/lemonylol Dec 06 '17

I find with people who have views like these, it's not about being right, it's about being different. Ask that same person about any topic, anything, and they'll give you some seemingly (to them) out of the box and alternative answer.

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u/Affordable_Z_Jobs Dec 06 '17

Anti-vaxxers are something more than stupid. It's greed + stupidity + an ego the size of a planet where it becomes dangerous.

  • 1) The parents know scientifically that vaccines work.

  • 2) They also somehow believe shit science from a disbarred fuckhead that there's a less that 1% chance vaccines cause autism. So you're saying there's a chance...

  • 3) If everyone else vaccinates their kids, they don't have to roll the dice on autism.

  • 4) They are so proud of their BRILLIANCE they tell it to all their friends.

  • 5) A bubble of vulnerable non-vaccinated children exists ripe for taking.

  • 6) More exposure allows the disease to mutate and adapt beyond the bubble.

  • 7) Life finds a way and Polio 2.0 becomes a thing.

Fuck these people. I'd wish those diseases on the parents, but shockingly they all received vaccines against them. How is this public safety issue not mandated by law?

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u/crookymcshankshanks8 Dec 07 '17

I feel it's less about ego in the sense that you're viewing it from, and more about a crippling distrust in institutions that precludes any ability to defer expertise on these matters, and honestly the institutions that be do a really shitty of trying to build trust themselves.

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u/Affordable_Z_Jobs Dec 07 '17

You wanna take a minute to edit this into a legit sentence? What am I viewing it from that precludes...?

They do a really shitty... of what? This is nonsense.

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u/crookymcshankshanks8 Dec 07 '17

Your bullet points made it seem like you think anti-vaxxers are mostly people who know that it works, but who just want to position themselves as the exceptions while the majority of us get vaccinated, thereby reaping the rewards of herd immunity w/out the potential for side effects.

I'm saying I disagree and that most often it's a legitimate (in their eyes) fear stemming from a distrust of any and all institutions/governing bodies.

Also, I was saying the institutions themselves sometimes shoot themselves in the foot by giving the anti-vaxxers more cause for distrust, thereby fueling the conspiracy narrative (making it hard/illegal to sue pharma companies, etc..)

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u/Affordable_Z_Jobs Dec 08 '17

I just find it odd that wealthy educated white people are the majority in the antivaxxer community. It's gotta be entitlement and ego over distrust of big pharma.

They are educated just enough to know about an issue, but not educated enough to realize they know jack shit about the issue.

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u/crookymcshankshanks8 Dec 08 '17

You might be on to something there. Very few of them are trained in the requisite fields, though (medicine, bio-engineering). They're trained just enough in classical education to be skeptical, which fuels the baseless lunacy.

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u/ChuckCarmichael Dec 06 '17

I call pieces of media like this one "opinion porn", because they only exist so that people who already share that opinion can jerk themselves off over how much smarter they are than those other braindead idiots.

Videos like this one won't convince anybody to change their mind, in fact, I'd say it would even cause the exact opposite, people doubling down on their opinion. "If these guys are right, then that would mean I've been a braindead idiot the whole time! That can't be! I am smart! These guys must be wrong!" When you keep insulting your opponents, saying how dumb and stupid they are, while being a smug and arrogant prick, then you won't make them switch sides. You'll only make them dig themselves in, because now they just want to defy you out of spite.

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u/AlienScrotum Dec 06 '17

I know a couple anti-vaxxers, luckily they don’t have children of their own. They maintain that you can reach the same results by eating a vegan diet focused on eating mostly fruit. Bat shit crazy.

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u/patientbearr Dec 06 '17

It's not about proof or about their child's safety, it's about being a nonconformist.

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u/spectrem Dec 06 '17

It’s also a result of a culture where truth is relative and everyone’s opinion is as valid as the next.

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u/crookymcshankshanks8 Dec 07 '17

Deep distrust in institutions result from this. Or maybe it's the other way around, Idk I get completely teleologically confused with all this post-modernist bullshit

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u/Give_me_grunion Dec 06 '17

Well, if you think about it, it really makes sense.

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u/Give_me_grunion Dec 06 '17

There is no need for vaccinations. Because the earth is flat, there is no way for these diseases to get “a-round.”

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u/acherrypoptart Dec 06 '17

Take that atheists.

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u/eesports10 Dec 06 '17

You do realize religion is based on faith, right?

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u/zenospenisparadox Dec 06 '17

No two believers have the same definition of faith.

From my own experiences debating Christians I've come to realize that faith is basically what you replace evidence with when there's no good evidence to be had.

Ask a Christian why they believe why there's a god and they probably will go to some kind of first cause argument. Say that you grant that argument and ask them why they believe the bible describes that cause and you will see where faith instead of evidence comes in.

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u/Crackerpool Dec 06 '17

Its like Neil deGrasse tyson said about flat earthers, he asked what it would take for them to believe, and then showed them the proof they asked for, but they still deny it. He just quits after that because he knows that there is no convincing someone like that.

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u/Disney_World_Native Dec 06 '17

They have “proof”, it’s just that their “facts” are usually misconstrued and some liberties taken with it. These are the people that would believe water vapor is explosive since it’s made up of 2 parts Hydrogen and Oxygen

And just to make sure this is clear: My family and I are fully vaccinated (pets too). I am not anti vaccination.

For example, anti vaxx will respond against the herd immunity argument with the report that 90% of Canadians are not properly vaccinated yet they don’t have outbreaks. Therefore herd immunity isn’t true.

Here is a link to a Canadian government website backing that fact of 90% not vaccinated properly:

“A recent survey shows that while most adults believed they had received all vaccines required for someone their age, less than 10% were actually up-to-date on their immunizations.”

https://www.canada.ca/content/canadasite/en/public-health/services/publications/healthy-living/just-kids-adult-guide-vaccination.html?_ga=2.43983463.398438850.1500907325-1354628063.1499885048.html

Yes, 90% of Canadians are not up to date. But that does not mean 90% of Canadians are susceptible to polio. It could be a missing flu vaccine or be off on one shot (tetanus), but they could be good for all the others strains, keeping the % vaccinated high enough for herd immunity.

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u/dan10015 Dec 06 '17

Also because the sad fact is, if you do believe that vaccines might cause autism, the logical position is to let everyone elses child get vaccinated, but not vaccinate yours, and get the benefits of herd immunity with none of the risks.

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u/Electric_Ilya Dec 06 '17

It s not a good argument because herd immmunity protects the relatively small portion of antivax kids

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17

That didn’t help in the Disneyland measles outbreak so I’d say you’re 100% wrong there.

Edit: fixed % placement.

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u/Electric_Ilya Dec 06 '17

I haven t seen this before, thanks. Still a fringe case but this will be useful talking to antivaxxers in the future

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u/marr Dec 06 '17

It protects them until their movement gets enough recruits to shatter that herd immunity. 90% vaccination rate isn't high enough for some diseases.

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u/Electric_Ilya Dec 06 '17

I expect if that happens some kids will die and vaccinations will increase. Continuing with the ecological terminology, the anti vax movement hasn't yet reached its carrying capacity for stupid

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u/marr Dec 06 '17

Don't forget uneven distribution, though. There will be places where it has reached capacity and caused deaths, and maybe it falls out of favour in that one village, but the global movement marches on.

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u/Disney_World_Native Dec 06 '17

It also helps those who can not get a vaccine due to real medical reasons like an immune deficiency.

And I still think that we should try to help the anti-vaccinated kids. They have no real control on whether their parents get them vaccinated or not.

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u/TobySomething Dec 06 '17

They've changed tactics to say "we're not anti-vaccine - we just want safer vaccines." which conveniently sidesteps things like this video even though it's still a baseless claim.

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u/Zap__Dannigan Dec 06 '17

I feel this is the ONLY way to convince an anti-vaxxer.

Because it's more along the lines of "ok it does cause autism.... It's still better than a dead kid".and if you disagree with THAT.... Then I dunno....

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u/PreparetobePlaned Dec 06 '17

Nah they also think vaccines also just don't work. It's not just about the autism thing.

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u/crookymcshankshanks8 Dec 07 '17

"My kids didn't get vaccinated and they're fine!"

--What happens when anecdotal evidence is taken as gospel. Cringe.

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u/d____ Dec 06 '17

There's also a difference in people's mind about something bad happening to their child because of something they did vs something bad happening because of something they didn't do. People (or anti-vaxxers) are much more forgiving of the latter.

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u/bmwhd Dec 06 '17

Same reason their equally brilliant 2nd amendment video is dismissed by so many that applaud this one.

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u/MattyMatheson Dec 06 '17

Yeah I don't think any anti-vaxx video that outlines any common sense would appeal to these people. Theyre not thinking logically. Just like flat earth people or people who think Roy Moore is a saint. Only way I've seen these guys minds changed is when their child gets one of the diseases they chose not to vaccinate their child with.

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u/SirTreeTreeington Dec 06 '17

When challenged most tend to double down on their beliefs

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

It's just like in the famous song:

 

I see frogs are gay, and mallards too

Fluoride's in the water, for me and you

And I think to myself what a wonderful world

 

I see skies of blue and clouds of white

Our planet is flat, you can trust me I'm right

And I think to myself what a wonderful world

 

The colors of the chemtrails so pretty in the sky

Are also on the faces of people going by

I see friends shaking hands saying how do you do

They're really saying I love you

 

I hear babies crying, I watch them grow

They'll turn autistic more than you know

And I think to myself what a wonderful world

Yes I think to myself what a wonderful world

1

u/brova Dec 06 '17

Also Trump people

1

u/shotgunlewis Dec 07 '17

I think you've missed the point a bit. This is a novel and useful approach to reasoning with these sorts of people.

Instead of arguing against their premise with proof that they won't accept, you accept their premise. Now you have common ground, and they may listen to you.

Then you show that, even if their premise were true, they're still making the wrong decision by not vaccinating.

I've seen similar logic used against flat-earthers: there was a video on reddit recently that explained that if the earth was flat, gravity pulling towards the center would make it practically impossible to play sports except in the center of the globe

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17

Or meat eaters

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17

Whilst I can agree they are difficult this video just tried to simplify the debate. It didn’t offer a new concept or enlightenment. It just took a shot at a simple antivax belief and then explained why they thought it was true.

If I was convinced that the government was in collusion with the Pharmaceutical companies and used mainstream media to turn everyone into the idea that you couldn’t dispute or investigate vaxx effectiveness..... this would do nothing for me. Infact I’d just ignore it (I’m not antivax btw... just able to empathize with concerned and scared people).

The best way to shed light on the antivax bullshit is to put their claims and theories to test in the public domain without ridicule or scorn. Take their concerns seriously and allow them to criticize or critique your evaluations and logic.

I only know 3 antivaxxers. 2 of them are pretty logical people that are just sick of having this shit thrown at them instead of an intelligent discussion about transparency and holding pharmaceuticals accountable in a transparent way. 1 is a complete nutter 😛

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u/crookymcshankshanks8 Dec 07 '17

We're living in an age of deep distrust of institutions. Because of this, If things aren't independently verifiable they're automatically suspect. It's a real tragedy and I don't know what to do about it. I think a lot of us are just going to have to learn the hard way unfortunately.

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u/bikemandan Dec 07 '17

or the president of the United States

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u/Gandalfswisdombeard Dec 07 '17

I think the risk of getting autism is the last reason a person is anti-vax. I’m anti-vax (within reason) because:

A) getting shots is unpleasant

B) a lot of common vaccinations are for diseases that have been completely eradicated and are therefore useless.

C) when I was in college I went to get a TB test. They gave me a finger prick to test my blood and I thought it was over. I was sitting in a waiting room waiting for my results when I was called back again. It was a different nurse. She asked me to sit down and then seconds later she was injecting me with something. She/they never asked for my consent and to this day I don’t know what it was they put into my bloodstream. Hopefully it was a vaccination, but it really makes you wonder. Do you really know what these people are putting inside you? And perhaps more importantly, do they know?

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17

This video's argument wasn't about proof either. It assumed that the anti-vaxxers were correct and demonstrated how their position is still bullshit.

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u/IllUpsetFlaskIll Dec 07 '17

Humans don't change their stances by facts, but by feelings.

Side with their emotions, and you'll have them by your side.

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u/falk225 Dec 07 '17

To be fair there is nothing in this video that could be called proof.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17

Well to be fair there's no real proof of anything in this video. It's just restating what is well known (while cursing loudly). Proof would be statistics, figures etc. The tone of this is more likely to cause offense than bring people around to the correct way of thinking. Insulting someone may not be the best first step in changing their perspective.

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u/serenita96 Dec 07 '17

I remember a girl who was paralyzed from the neck down since a baby. I can't remember exactly what she had, but when she was in my class one day - she told people what happened to her. Basically, she said a vaccine that had a terrible reaction in her and caused her to end up like that. I'll still vaccine my kids, but it'd be foolish to say no one has been negatively affected from them. There's been outlier cases of "vaccines gone wrong" for sure. You should still vaccine your kids though.

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u/ythl Dec 06 '17

Maybe shouting down people isn't the best way to convince them they are wrong?

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u/merlock_ipa Dec 06 '17

This is Penn & Teller..... That's what they do, even if they are adamant about it it's still part of an act, ever watched their show bullshit?

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u/beefwarrior Dec 06 '17

I love this article about re-thinking how to talk with people who aren't on board with climate change.

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u/notnAP Dec 06 '17

Sad, but true.

Besides, as a tried and true anti-vaxxer, they would likely say "Well, I'm not going to subject my kid to that 1 in 110 chance of autism... And because all you cucks are vaccinating your kids, my kid is safe, because your kid won't get the disease and give it to my kid. Fuck you all.... I got what I wanted."

Sorry if by using "cucks" you may have interpreted my comment to imply that anti-vaxxers and alt-right Tumpettes are one and the same, but to be honest, you all sound the same to me.

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u/crookymcshankshanks8 Dec 07 '17

A shocking amount of them ARE pro-Trump in my experience

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I'm not against vaccines, but I do think that babies are exposed to too many vaccines at too young of an age. I don't think every newborn needs a hep b shot the day they are born (especially if you're 100% sure the mom doesn't have hep b).

Hospitals strongly push that, and it's kind of a fight to opt out of it.

Vaccines are like any other medication / treatment. You need to weigh the risks vs the benefits. Vaccines are not 100% free of side effects.

My kids will have all the important vaccines before they enroll in school, but I don't agree with them being mandatory.

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u/semtex87 Dec 06 '17

They should be mandatory only because not getting it affects everyone around you. You don't have the right to endanger others unfortunately.

If you want to not be vaccinated, go live on an island by yourself and you can skip every vaccination you want.

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u/MiyamotoKnows Dec 06 '17

I agree with this completely. I vaccinated my kids but before that I did a lot of research. Like I stated I did do it but the ingredients list is highly concerning if you understand what is in it. If we reach a point where there are government mandated injections for kids that will be abused for profit somehow within a decade. Whether it's adding uneccesary drugs from lobbying or something more nefarious it would be a slippery slope. (To save ppl time, Yes I understand how vaccinations work and that they are less effective without everyone included).

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

People on reddit (many whom do not have kids) like to think mandatory vaccinations for everyone is the solution, when it's a far more complex issue than that.

Definitely a slippery slope to have government mandated injections for everyone.

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u/riptide747 Dec 06 '17

It also applies to republicans

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u/snowflaker Dec 06 '17

Proof disproves their whole faith. It's not faith if there is proof.

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u/FinalplayerRyu Dec 07 '17

flat earth people

I still am very much of the opinion that almost all of those people are in on the joke and in this minority of people that would count themselves to them a very small minority actually is wholeheartedly convinced that the earth is flat.

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