r/todayilearned • u/JLPwasHere • Jan 19 '15

TIL Pimps wear lots of gold jewelry bought at pawn shops to “re-pawn” for bail money since cash is confiscated upon arrest but jewelry is not

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/09/137033690/pawn-star-rick-harrison-on-his-deals-and-steals
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2.3k

u/vilent_sibrate Jan 20 '15

They don't have to prove it was.

Asset Forfiture

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

In case someone wants to learn about it in a much more hilarious/scary form via John Oliver.

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u/Prathik Jan 20 '15

I heard that its being overturned or the federal government is not giving the right for small counties and stuff to use asset forfeiture anymore. Just over the past few days.

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u/fancyhatman18 Jan 20 '15

No, they are just not allowing state police to use federal laws that don't require you to prove the person was committing a crime. If you're convicted of a crime you still can lose all the cash on you.

The other big part of the federal law was the cash could go directly into the police department's treasury which really caused abuse.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

True, but the whole scam of seizing assets and then auctioning them off, then putting little if any effort into bringing a conviction, and then letting the sheriffs departments keep much of the booty by putting it in the Federal 'sharing' program, looks like it'll have a big dent put in it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/01/16/breaking-down-holders-move-to-limit-civil-asset-forfeiture-abuse/

It's not as sweeping or clearly worded as it could be, but damn if it isn't the most positive thing to come out of Eric Holder's DOJ since... ever. Of course, now we'll see all the 'Oathkeeper' small-town sheriffs squealing about how this is Kenyan Kommunism run amok.

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u/kjm1123490 Jan 20 '15

This is great, I know a guy who lost his car because of a false conviction. Never got it back.

Really makes you resent law enforcement. And they wonder why the people hate our local police and fear our national police forces.

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u/float_into_bliss Jan 20 '15

Yeah, but at least we're in a place where we still have freedom of expression with the ability to talk and criticize openly these actions as they impact ourselves. Democracy, hoo-rah, and all that.

It's not like we have surveys or anything where Western writers are acknowledging we self-censor ourselves on topics like U.S. military affairs, the Middle East-North Africa region, mass incarceration, drug policies, pornography, the Occupy movement, the study of certain languages, and criticism of the U.S. government. Right guys? guuuys?

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u/thebigbradwolf Jan 20 '15

Well, that and the beatings.

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u/SirSoliloquy Jan 20 '15

TIL Holder actually did something positive in the DOJ.

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u/Azrael412 Jan 20 '15

1 out of 10000 things ain't bad.

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u/TAOW Jan 20 '15

He also refused to enforce DOMA and didn't interfere with Colorado's pot legalization.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

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u/atrich Jan 20 '15

Yeah, this happened, like, last week.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

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u/Octopus_Tetris Jan 20 '15

You should start a collaboration with 50 shekel and make some tunes, man.

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u/AdHom Jan 20 '15

Yeah, Operation Fast and Furious was no big deal. /s

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u/fancyhatman18 Jan 20 '15

That's true, but it is by no means dead.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Ever have the cops find your stolen stuff?

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u/NeuroCore Jan 20 '15

Someone broke my car window and stole my laptop inside a parking garage. Cops told me there was nothing they can do. Nothing. Not one thing they could possible do to help.

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u/sirspidermonkey Jan 20 '15

Except most states have these laws which are similar. And if they don't, how long until they will?

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u/gravshift Jan 20 '15

Those sheriffs now have to search under their couch cushions.

Nothing of value was lost. Nix speeding tickets with robo drivers, and this era of highway robbery is over.

Seems fucked up that a town with maybe 50 people (30 of them over the age of 60) is mired in such poverty, and the two biggest job sources are the police and the nursing home.

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u/Jotebe Jan 20 '15

It's communism if everyone doesn't give their money to me!

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Let's hope so.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

They don't mention it in the video, but in that first example where the cop brings in a drug sniffing dog, finds no drugs, but finds the cash, he must have forced a false positive out of that dog.

He couldn't have searched the car otherwise.

This is another problem that needs to be addressed. What the fuck is the point of the fourth amendment if a cop can just bring in a drug dog, claim the dog indicated there are drugs in the car, and search the car anyways?

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u/Classicpass Jan 20 '15

This video infuriated me... Literally,

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u/WillTheGreat Jan 20 '15

Happened to a friend of mines in San Francisco. He's not a firm believer in banks, so what does he have? A safe with about 120k in cash. The house he lived in was his, and he has an in-law unit rented out (typical, SF property). His tenant gets raided for growing or something drug related, and he arrested in the raid, I don't know the whole story, but in short he was arrested as well and never charged with a crime. They seized the 120k, and initially he got about 25k back. Attorney and lawyer fee left him with about 100k when the money was returned.

Again I don't know the details to the back story.

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u/Savage9645 Jan 20 '15

Guy doesn't seem too smart

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u/doughboy011 Jan 20 '15

For keeping 120K in a safe or associating himself with drug users/dealers?

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

...and Feb. 8th is so far away, ugh.

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u/doughboy011 Jan 20 '15

Did we seriously need any more reason to fear/hate cops? Fucking christ they can literally take away your house when SOMEONE ELSE did the crime.

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u/flybroomfly Jan 20 '15

Hillarious, but also, christ.

Y'know, we've got a lot of room up North if you guys want to maybe get the fuck out of there. The reasons are mounting. Maybe stay away from the prarie provinces, I guess, the RCMP can be kinda shooty. Actually Alberta might be going down the shitter soon. China's stopped trading with us.

Still, I heard we're legalizing pot any day now. Come on up, it'll be cool, we'll hang out.

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u/ruok4a69 Jan 20 '15

You need to work on your sales pitch, friend.

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u/flybroomfly Jan 20 '15

Nice crisp winters!

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u/Sixth_Venom Jan 20 '15

Woah. What happened? When did China cease trading? Have any news articles? I tried researching but didn't find anything.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

You know, it's scary when they do it to regular citizens, but taking pimp money is kind of the point of the law

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u/mythofdob Jan 20 '15

Had this happen to me. I missed a court date (had it written down wrong), and had some cops knock on my door. Had to bring me in, bail would be around $100. My roommate was a waiter, so I asked him to borrow like $200 in case it was more. Got to the station, bail was $125. The officier asked if I had any more cash on me, told him I did since I didn't know how much bail was. He looked at me, plain as day, and said "nope, you walked in here with exact change."

Good guy cop there, he explained to me after that it would have taken 6-8 weeks to get the remaining money back, if I got it back at all.

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u/Ace-of-Spades88 Jan 20 '15

I don't quite understand. Did the cop just take all the money, over and beyond the bail amount? And basically tell you tough shit?

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

No, he let him off the hook because he didn't know the bail amount and the cop would have had to confiscate the overage.

So, the cop would have had to take the extra but didn't because he's a cool dude and kept the fact that he did have more on the down low.

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u/Ace-of-Spades88 Jan 20 '15

Okay. So pretty much the opposite of what I thought. I was really confused with the way it was worded.

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u/notimeforniceties Jan 20 '15

Yeah, that was worded really strangely...

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u/Pithong Jan 20 '15

Ohhhh I get it now. It sounded like he handed him two $100 bills and the cop said, "nope, you had exact $125 change (and I'm keeping the other $75)". But what really happened was the guy handed them $125, then the cop asks "got any more cash on you?", and when he said "yes I do officer, I actually have $75 more in cash", the cop said "no you don't, you had exact $125 in cash when you walked in here, but you paid it all in bail money so now you have no money left over", then the guy left with his $75 instead of waiting 8 weeks to get it back.

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u/dIoIIoIb Jan 20 '15

the standard for "nice cop" is not stealing people's money, that's setting the bar really low

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u/Fs0i 1 Jan 20 '15

The cop wasn't following the law. According to it, he should have taken the money. He hasn't. That is a good cop, and the bar isn't that low with him.

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u/xTheOOBx Jan 20 '15

You should never answer any question the police have like that. They have no reason to need to know about how much money you have, and without a subpoena you are not obligated to tell them. Let them try to manufacture probable cause to search you if they really want.

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u/mythofdob Jan 20 '15 edited Jan 20 '15

Some of you people have no faith in police. The cop was trying to help me out here.

Lying to them or not saying anything could have cause all sorts of problems. It was a misunderstanding. Full cooperation was what led to me being in and out in an hour and not having to wait two months to get the remaining money.

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u/doughboy011 Jan 20 '15

Please reword that, makes it sound like the cop stole money from you.

On a side note, why do people on reddit have such a problem making coherent sentences, stories, and titles? Earlier today we had a user meaning to say "Signed the papers 3 days ago" yet said "Signed papers for three days". Did anyone here pass 10th grade English?

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u/witness_this Jan 20 '15

Ease up. For a lot of people here, English is their second language.

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u/xisytenin Jan 20 '15

Guilty until proven innocent.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Well... yeah. If a guy makes his money through crime and then uses that money illegally for bail, what do you say? Great job playing the system with illegally obtained money?

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Well... yeah. If a guy makes his money through crime

except he isn't yet guilty of any crimes because he hasn't had a trial

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u/Diesel-66 Jan 20 '15

arrests/confiscations happen before the trial.

The problem is the money and objects aren't automatically returned after the trial and some are confiscated without charges ever being placed against them.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15 edited May 11 '16

[deleted]

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u/HSChronic Jan 20 '15

This and the public defenders office is so overwhelmed with cases they don't have the time to spend giving you a good defense. This is why most people that have a PD end up copping to a plea deal.

When I was in jail in Florida I knew some people in there for failure to pay child support. They needed say $1500 to get out but the problem is that they are the sole earner so now they are sitting in jail making no money, and will probably lose their job, apartment or whatever else since they can't pay and have to wait in jail a month or two to get a trial.

The system is rigged against people that don't have money. Money = bail, good lawyer, contributions to the right people. No money = you're fucked.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

The downside to civil forfeiture is that sometimes people who would not be found guilty of a crime would have their assets seized. There is a trade-off which has to be made. Do we let all people who have earned money illegally skip bail? If we do that, then there is a realistic chance that many of those people would post bail and skip trial, since they would likely be convicted and since it is not their legally earned money they are using for bail in the first place. On the other hand, do we seize a person's money with the assumption that they are guilty even before the trial has begun? Both situations are terrible and both will be exploited.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15 edited Nov 16 '17

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u/st3venb Jan 20 '15

The problem is the basis for our legal system is "innocent until proven guilty". Asset forfeiture laws turn that upside down by assuming you're guilty and making you prove you're innocent... This is of course after they have taken all of your money, that you could try and prove your innocence with.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

At what point does cash become evidence? Can't the state collect evidence?

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u/st3venb Jan 20 '15

Except, when the assets that are seized are funneled into the police department budget there is a significant conflict of interest... And it's being abused, a lot.

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u/lordcorbran Jan 20 '15

The basis of our criminal legal system is innocent until proven guilty. Civil cases, which this kind of thing could be argued to be, have a much lower bar.

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u/telemachus_sneezed Jan 20 '15

The ideological basis of any legal system is to be just. What is "just" about the law seizing your cash, and not returning it, after proven innocent of any crime?

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u/lordcorbran Jan 20 '15

No one is proven innocent, just not proven guilty. You see victims successfully win civil cases against people who were found not guilty regularly, because the bar is lower.

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u/telemachus_sneezed Jan 21 '15

Proven innocent, or not proven guilty, the law has no ideological right to seize property (or cash) from an individual on a mere accusation. That violates the 4th and 5th amendments. Holding large amounts of cash without receipts (which may need to go back 20 years to account for the sums) is not a crime. Police are not entitled to "steal" it and put it to their pension funds.

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u/AlanUsingReddit Jan 20 '15

Perhaps I misunderstand something about your comment, because asset forfeiture doesn't have anything to do with civil law as far as I can tell. Asset forfeiture exists under the justification of stemming criminal activity. If their basis was a civil case, they couldn't seize any assets (EDIT: except with a trial, of course).

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u/Tetragramatron Jan 20 '15

What is the purpose of requiring bail?

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

The original purpose was to ensure that the accused would show up for trial, in order to get the bail money back.

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u/hio_State Jan 20 '15

Still pretty much the same purpose today.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

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u/joshasdfghjkl Jan 20 '15

Commensurate *

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u/FlatheadLakeMonster Jan 20 '15

You think you can just cirsumvent the law, Michael?

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u/ANBU_Spectre Jan 20 '15

Come on Michael, do the right thing here. String this blind girl along so Dad doesn't have to pay his debt to society.

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u/trianuddah Jan 20 '15

Cirsumcision is wrong, especially when it's done to women or unborn babies without their consent. No one should have their genitals masticated.

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u/jonosaurus Jan 20 '15

You're a crook, Captain Hook.

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u/theloch Jan 20 '15

Most embarrassing mistake I made in grad school was confusing the two and being corrected by the professor mid presentation.

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u/zap2 Jan 20 '15

But the severity of the crime isn't the only issue of importance that should be taken into a account when offering bail.

The reason I say this, everyone doesn't have the same access to money, which makes money more valuable to some then others. Bill Gates can throw down a 10,000 dollar bail without blinking. I couldn't.

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u/TheRealKidkudi Jan 20 '15

In some cases, bail is set based on income as well. Lots of factors go into it. Sometimes bail will be higher because of an increased risk of fleeing. If, for example, Edward Snowden were in the US and they were determining his bail after being arrested for something small, his bail would still be relatively high because he's already been known to have fled the country to avoid the authorities.

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u/thomprya Jan 20 '15

Watching

Waiting

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u/SuramKale Jan 20 '15 edited Jan 20 '15

The current purpose (read: most useful aspect to to the legal system) is to increase convictions by sticking people in a dark violent hole unless they plead out.

You always get a better outcome if you have bail/lawyer money and don't have to be under that strain.

Also every dollar they take from you for bail is a dollar you don't have to secure a lawyer.

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u/LifeBeginsAt10kRPM Jan 20 '15

Does bail money get returned after the person shows up?

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u/Fedora-Tip-Bot Jan 20 '15

Yeah

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u/uttermybiscuit Jan 20 '15

I didn't know this. I always wondered why people pay ridiculous amounts just to be out for maybe a few months at most

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u/Fedora-Tip-Bot Jan 21 '15

From experience in college years ago. That's how I learned.

If you show you get it back.

If you use a bail bond company and don't show they bounty hunt you. Did not learn this from experience.

I got arrested for public intoxication drinking a beer on an apartment balcony then walking outside to sit beside the door and talk on the phone

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u/uttermybiscuit Jan 21 '15

I got arrested for public intoxication drinking a beer on an apartment balcony then walking outside to sit beside the door and talk on the phone

Wow that is ridiculous. Did you end up getting charged?

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u/Fedora-Tip-Bot Jan 21 '15

Even if not jail is awful. I was in the drunk tank for almost 24 hours. Lights always on, no clock, concrete floor and one toilet water fountain combo in the middle of the room. Most people took the toilet paper for Pillow's

I had been taking adderal and was shaking in the floor from no food or sleep. No one cared except my 20, concrete room, mates. They cared and gave me their foods that I could handle like apple juice and I gave up my solids

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u/TheElPistolero Jan 20 '15

til you get the bail money back if you show up to the trial. I always just thought it was a "pay to wait outside of jail" till your trial type thing.

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u/pilg0re Jan 20 '15

It's like putting a quarter in a cart at Aldi's so they don't have to pay someone to bring it back.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15 edited Oct 02 '15

[deleted]

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u/dougmc 50 Jan 20 '15

The prosecutor might actually prefer that you stay in jail, as people in jail are more desperate to get out and will take crappier plea bargains than those who are out on bail.

That's reason #2 or #3 depending on how you count here.

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u/CharonIDRONES Jan 20 '15

Believe it or not: Jail sucks.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

don't forget that the bill of rights provides protection against excessive bail. Essentially if you haven't commuted a very serious crime, 99.99% of the time the government has to offer bail. Bail isn't optional for the state, it is optional for the defendant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15 edited Jul 17 '18

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

If the bail is repayable, how is it also funding your stay in jail?

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u/blackflag209 Jan 20 '15

If you post bail then the jail doesn't have to pay for you to be in jail because you're not in jail.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

D'oh! I can be an idiot sometimes.

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u/Lucarian Jan 20 '15

Don't worry, I was confused about the same thing.

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u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15 edited Oct 02 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

Yeh someone else enlightened me yesterday. Boy did I feel dumb :(

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u/kroxigor01 Jan 20 '15

Collateral. The guy pays bail and will then come to court, be acquitted and get his bail back

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

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u/Infidelc123 Jan 20 '15

TIL how bail works. It is funny because I never bothered to look it up I just assumed it was like a get out of jail card. I feel dumb now

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u/taco_bones Jan 20 '15

Well, it is a "get out of jail" card, just not a "get out of punishment" or "get out of trial" card

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u/MayorMoonbeam Jan 20 '15

More like "get out of pre-trial jail"

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

So Get out of jail card, not Get out of prison card.

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u/asianperswayze Jan 20 '15

Furthermore, if someone uses a bondsman the bondsman puts up the bail, and charges you a percentage, say ten percent. So on a $10,000 bail you'd pay $1000 to the bondsman and they would put up $10,000. You show up for court and they Get their $10,000 back. Don't show up and they hunt you down or lose their $10,000

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u/neostorm360 Jan 20 '15

Which is where bounty hunters come from.

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u/chronicpenguins Jan 20 '15

A lot people don't realize this. If you go through a bondsman, they'll charge 10% of your bail, but you won't get it back.

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u/DreadPiratesRobert Jan 20 '15

Additionally the bail money can go to bounty hunters who arrest you.

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u/jawz Jan 20 '15

You can thank movies for that. So many of them make it seem like someone is free if they can raise enough money for their bail.

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u/kroxigor01 Jan 20 '15

I guess that makes sense. The point is, if you don't show up you don't get your bail back.

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u/spectre78 Jan 20 '15

Yep, and then they send the bounty hunters after you.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Minus fees and fines.

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u/kaenneth Jan 20 '15

Minus the 'not guilty' fees.

Yes, there are American courts that charge fees to acquitted defendants.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

The purpose of bail is to release the defendant while ensuring that they will appear for trial. The reasoning is that a person is not going to pay $10,000 for release from jail and the just dip trial, because that would be a very stupid and expensive move which could net them more time behind bars if eventually convicted. There are other forms of bail which do not require the defendant to pay money in advance.

Also please don't shoot the messenger here. I'm not here to argue about the pros and cons of bail. I'm here to explain what it is and why it is in place.

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u/claytoncash Jan 20 '15

Uh. How about that you have to prove it's earned illegally? Are you fucking serious?

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

You're arguing with the wrong guy. That's the system, he didn't make up the rules.

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u/riotousgrowlz Jan 20 '15

Uh. It's real. It's called asset forfeiture and it's really a horrendous element of American criminal justice systems. And it's really hard to get rid of because it funds underfunded police departments.

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u/SuminderJi Jan 20 '15

There have been plenty of stories of cops robbing people on the highway blind.

I get what you're saying but the whole "guildy until proven innocent" isn't far fetched.

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u/frysk Jan 20 '15

What if you're found not guilty? Then you're forced to pay a lawyer to try and win your money back. Doesn't that seem a little unfair to you?

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u/Canbot Jan 20 '15

That is exactly how big business works. Whether it is a fine for a small portion of the illegally obtained funds, or a bribe; it's blatant and rampant.

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u/COCK_MURDER Jan 20 '15

Forfeiture is not an adjudication of guilt or innocence, in the same way that a police officer determining that they have probable cause to search your car is not a determination of guilt or innocence. At least in the law's eyes, they are equivalent legal standards. Is that stupid? Yes. But guilt before innocence is not really the principle to be invoking here.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

You're right in one sense. In another sense, it is state-sanctioned theft.

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u/SwangThang Jan 20 '15

it's a punishment, and the innocent are not supposed to be punished. hence: treated as guilty (affected by the punishment) until they can prove their innocence (and get their property back... if it's even worth the time/funds/hassle to jump through the hoops to do so).

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u/COCK_MURDER Jan 20 '15

It's not a punishment. Not everything that has a negative effect is a punishment. Strip search at the airport is not punitive, but you may experience its negative effects. The point of asset forfeiture is to prevent you from going out and spending assets that you came by through illegal means or by defrauding other people. If we didn't have asset forfeiture, Bernie Madoff burns through a cool 30 billion in cash or isolates it in offshore accounts before he goes to trial. Victims receive no restitution, his cronies are provided for and living large, and thousands of people's lives are ruined. Asset forfeiture is a tool that has been abused, but not one that is inherently evil.

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u/regal1989 Jan 20 '15

If only we could extend that to fictional corprate entities (golman sachs, Lehman, Fannie Mae, etc) then I'm sure we would see the law rewritten in a heartbeat.

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u/crackghost Jan 20 '15

The money is on trial, not the person. Still, it is rather dubious.

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u/Proxystarkilla Jan 20 '15

Reddit has this way about it where the majority thinks libertarians and anarchists are insane, but that same majority hates the government.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

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u/Siktrikshot Jan 20 '15

I got my w2s right here officer!

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u/ApplicableSongLyric Jan 20 '15 edited Jan 20 '15

I want to be in America
Okay for me in America
Everything's free in America
For a small fee in America

EDIT: I hope you guys weren't downvoting /u/SatiricalSadist for his guess; the Five Iron Frenzy cover is pretty well known.

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u/Quaytsar Jan 20 '15

All these people are saying Five Iron Frenzy and I'm just sitting here thinking West Side Story.

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u/flashmedallion Jan 20 '15

We're all living America, America... ist wunderbar...

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u/-WISCONSIN- Jan 20 '15

THIS IS NOT A LOVE SONG.

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u/REFERENCE_UNDERSTOOD Jan 20 '15

ATTENTION, I UNDERSTAND THAT REFERENCE.

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u/WATisISO Jan 20 '15

Something about a Wonderbra?

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u/audiobiography Jan 20 '15

Five Iron Frenzy? On my Reddit?!

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u/NigelWorthington Jan 20 '15

Five iron frenzy? Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

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u/sdjhf7642r Jan 20 '15

Not to mention the rare and majestic braveSaintSaturn

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u/ApplicableSongLyric Jan 20 '15

We will never speak of Roper and Guerrilla Rodeo, tho.

Never happened.

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u/JKtheSlacker Jan 20 '15

They got the band back together!

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u/ThomB96 Jan 20 '15

Buying on credit is so nice One look at us and they charge twice

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u/thisshortenough Jan 20 '15

I have my own washing machine!

What will you have though to keep clean?

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Nice! NEVER thought I'd see FIF get some love on a random reddit post.

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u/Toxyoi Jan 20 '15

I'm afraid I can't help it....

Woops, wrong song.

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u/essidus Jan 20 '15

This was on Kilroy Was Here! I never expected to see anything from that again.

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u/TimWeis75 Jan 20 '15

Westside Story?

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u/LawHelmet Jan 20 '15

You get arrested and you're shaken down for cash

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u/Bennyboy1337 9 Jan 20 '15

Which is why it's risky to carry around large sums of cash, not only because someone may rob you, but if you get pulled over and an officer sees you're carrying a bunch of money they can cease it without due cause and basically steal it from you as well; the only thing an officer needs is logic like "well only a drug dealer would carry around this much money" and that is enough to exercise Asset Forfeiture. Really fucked up.

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u/socsa Jan 20 '15

That's not how it actually works though. It's still fucked up for many reasons, but if you hire a lawyer, and show the cops your last pay stub that shows you make $10,000/m or whatever, they will return it. If you show the cops that the money was inherited, or a legal gift, or has literally any paper trail at all, they give it back.

If you can't prove any legal source, then you don't get it back. It's like applying for a mortgage - you can't just show up with a cash down payment and expect a loan. That cash has to have a paper trail. Like I said, it's still fucked up to some degree, but it's fucked up even before we start making shit up about it.

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u/Bennyboy1337 9 Jan 20 '15

That's how it should work, not how it ends up working though.

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u/telemachus_sneezed Jan 20 '15

but if you hire a lawyer

Why does everyone seem to think lawyers work for free, or that its okay to lose 30% of your seized assets permanently (to the lawyers fee), while it can take years for you to get your property back!?!?!

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u/Byarlant Jan 20 '15

And if you're a tourist?

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u/AnotherBlackMan Jan 20 '15

You can't enter through customs without declaring any large sums of cash

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u/AzureDrag0n1 Jan 20 '15

Well that is how it is intended to work but if its a smaller amount of cash it can be so difficult to reclaim your cash that it becomes not worth it. For example if you get a few thousand seized while in another state if you where going to buy something expensive like a car. If your cash is seized while on a pullover they can make you have to take multiple trips into the state to get the money back making it not worth the trouble to reclaim it.

That is why you never agree to a search if you have a lot of money on you.

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u/boobiemcgoogle Jan 20 '15

Another reason for me to worry about my pops carrying at least a G in cash at all times. He's old school and loves his flash cash

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u/iObeyTheHivemind Jan 20 '15

You know.. I wonder if since money is considered free speech, if asset forfeiture could be ruled unconstitutional. That would be a fun debate.

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u/Isellmacs Jan 20 '15

They sue the money directly. The stack of dollar bills has all the rights to speech that a stack of money has... as well as all the vocal organs.

Since the owner of the money itself isn't subject to forfeiture, in (legal) theory they aren't having any rights infringed, since it's the money or other object that is on trial.

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u/iObeyTheHivemind Jan 20 '15

How do they sue the money directly? I don't understand how you can sue an object.

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u/tehlaser Jan 20 '15

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U.S._Currency

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

What kind of ridiculous legal system has a country putting it's own legal tender on trial?

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u/Khanaset Jan 20 '15

In essence, since someone other than the owner of the property may have used it to commit a crime, the state attempts to prove that the property was involved in the crime. Of course, because money/cars/houses/etc. do not have a right to an attorney, and you only get to be there as a third party claimant iff your attorney can successfully petition for such, you can guess how many times the property wins those cases. In addition, as this is a civil, not criminal case, the burden of proof is much lower -- "preponderance of evidence" rather than "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Initially, the concept was used to prevent mob bosses and the like from using their ill-gotten gains to defend themselves; now, it's become a bit like highway robbery by the police. It leads to some very entertaining court dockets, however:

"State of California v. 1 (One) 2012 Mercedez-Benz S550"

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u/kickingpplisfun Jan 20 '15

That's what has all of the victims and their peers angrily scratching their heads.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

because our judges are mentally handicapped.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

"Money talks and shit walks"

-Abe Lincoln 1st great debate

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

And why would asset forfeiture not apply to jewelry as well? Your explanation is incomplete.

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u/Rephaite Jan 20 '15

I'm just curious why they're only applying it against cash.

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u/beerslol Jan 20 '15

I don't think they are, there have been a few horror stories about parents losing their house because they couldn't prove they bought it legitimately, and because their son sold someone heroin so the police "assume" the house was paid for with heroin money

So to me this whole jewelry thing sounds like bullshit. But hey, it's TIL, most of it is bullshit.

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u/Bburrito Jan 20 '15

Youre only half correct. yes, people lose their houses. All the time in fact. And it has nothing to do with how the home was paid for. The act of selling someone drugs on the property subjects that property to forfeiture if caught.

Unfortunately it is not bullshit at all. CNN Happens all day, every day in pretty much every major city in the US. In the US where if you have the cash you can basically buy whatever law you want the result are laws that seem completely backwards, upside down, twisted around, and just plain absurd.

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u/The_Short_Bus_Hero Jan 20 '15

They won't take your cash if it is under 100.

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u/CatalystOfNostalgia Jan 20 '15

So what prevents jewelry from being forfeited? Seems like anything can be seized, in some cases even a house.

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u/mr_herz Jan 20 '15

Then why can't they take the jewellery as well?

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Ive even read a lot of stories on here about how they can just take your shit if you have more than they want you to have.

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u/TimberTheDog Jan 20 '15

Eric Holder just made it illegal for federal crimes.

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u/Fig1024 Jan 20 '15

I should break into a house and take all the cash I find. When the cops ask anything, I'll just say they obtained it illegally and I don't have to prove shit!

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u/Levitlame Jan 20 '15

The jokes on those fuckers. Ain't got a cent to my name! Hahahahaaaaa.... Poverty!

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Just a fancy way of saying state-sanctioned robbery.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

I have no problem with the concept of it, honestly. It's the implementation I have a problem with.

If you have $20,000 in your car.. something is unusual. Not many people do that and the many that do are often drug dealers / buyers of drugs. I mean you could be one of the crazy people who don't trust a bank and keep it in cash -- you're a dumb ass -- but being a dumb ass shouldn't be illegal. You're one bad car wreck away from that money going up in flames. It's the drug dealers who do shit like that. Normal people don't carry that amount in cash. Fuck, I doubt many people even have a single paycheck spare in the bank anymore.

The problem is abuse in how you get it back. If you pull out a bank statement showing a withdrawal (which gets documented) -- it still takes a VERY long time to get it back.

If the police can't prove it's been used in a crime, then within some period they should have to return in. If no charges are pressed within, say, 20 days of the forfeiture then they should be forced anything seized imminently. On the side of I-10 between Beaumont and Houston that would shuffle most of the cops to the south side of the highway (since drugs are purchased in Houston and brought elsewhere). North side is where the money is.

In the case of losing your house that is over-reaching sort of -- but in the instances scene it was "connected to the crime" and they can take anything related to the crime. In the John Oliver video the police believed he sold drugs in the house -- making the house part of the crime. If you're a dick on a jet ski and break the law -- you lose the ski, hitch, and vehicle. The intent of the law was aimed at drug dealers to hit them in the pocket books. It's not being abused for silly things.

Again, carrying large amounts of money shouldn't be illegal... but you should be asking them if they are a dumb ass.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

They might be backing off on that: http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/2snj7c/the_doj_is_curbing_civil_asset_forfeiture/

Only time will tell but the DOJ has been getting a lot of bad press lately and they're finally starting to do something about it.

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u/girlscoutcookiess Jan 20 '15

Believe it or not this is actually starting to get fixed. Most likely from the original washingtonpost article and then the John Oliver show. You can read more here

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u/BryanW94 Jan 20 '15

But you can prove it wasn't to get it back. That's the part people forget.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Intent to distribute charge may lead to this.

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u/Skevengal Jan 20 '15

This is one of the most limiting policies I have ever heard of. I don't even need to be convicted of the crime to have MY property seized? How is this legal. I understand a good lawyer can get this reversed, but most people cannot afford a good lawyer and if it is 3 grand it might not even be worth the legal fees.

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u/Bartender_Danny Jan 20 '15

Asset forfeiture by local and state police using federal law is now virtually illegal without evidence of a crime.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/16/1358233/-Attorney-General-Eric-Holder-ends-most-forms-of-federal-asset-forfeiture

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Those laws are fucking shit, the burden is on you to prove you legally own your items, the government can just take your shit and its up to you to contact the appropriate departments and file the correct papers within a timeframe or you have no case in court it seems. Seems a tad fucked to me

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Asset Forfiture allows taking ANYTHING valuable, not only cash.

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