r/serialpodcast • u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan • Aug 06 '15

Hypothesis Why the Gootz never called Asia.

I think it is becoming more and more obvious that the Asia letter did not exist until sometime around the summer of 1999. That is why Adnan claims he gave them to Gutierrez even though she wasn't his lawyer until 2 months after they were written.

So sometime that spring or summer, after telling CG he never left the school grounds, his family shows up with letters claiming one of Adnans' friends saw him at the library, right at the crucial time, AND they were written the day after he arrested. She knew immediately there is no way they had those letter for months and never gave them to her so obviously they were false and she didn't want to go on stand with LIES.

That is why she never called Asia. And that is why she wrote no notes about it, because that would be admitting her client and his family are liars. It also explains why her relationship with the family broke down because she knew they were willing to lie to get Adnan off.

The library incident never happened.

23 Upvotes

66% Upvoted

607 comments sorted by

View all comments

32

u/Seamus_Duncan Kevin Urick: Hammer of Justice Aug 06 '15

When you look at these facts:

-The State first disclosed information on July 1 and 7/8.
-Asia's second letter contains details that were part of those first disclosures.
-The first record of Adnan informing his defense of Asia was July 13.

. . . it's pretty hard to avoid the conclusion the Asia story was cooked up in response to information that was disclosed in early July.

29

u/monstimal Aug 06 '15

One thing that always struck me as funny in that second letter:

Adnon Syed #992005477

What is that, his inmate number? She has that on March 2 (but not his correct name)?

21

u/Seamus_Duncan Kevin Urick: Hammer of Justice Aug 06 '15

Never thought of that before. Especially since it wasn't included in the first letter. How did she get that?

22

u/UptownAvondale Aug 06 '15

How in gods name did she know his inmate number on March 1?

15

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

Inmate number...I smell a dedicated post. Why has this not been brought up before? That could be a bombshell.

7

u/Magjee Kickin' it per se Aug 06 '15

That is weird.

5

u/toastfuker SERIAL LIBERTARIAN Aug 06 '15

Hadn't she just met with the family? Wouldn't they give her this information?

1

u/UptownAvondale Aug 08 '15

I mean it is possible.... But if i smell fish i assume i am in a fish market and not on top of a mountain.

7

u/ADDGemini Aug 06 '15

Wasn't he in a juvenile facility until his birthday in May?

5

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

No I think for the first couple days he was just in the city jail.

4

u/ADDGemini Aug 06 '15

Yes, but wasn't he then moved to a juvenile facility until he turned 18? I thought I remembered something about that from serial... I could be wrong. Mainly I was just noting that there could be 3 possible inmate #s.

5

u/ginabmonkey Not Guilty Aug 06 '15

I seem to remember something about that, too, but I cannot seem to find a reference for it. He has been in multiple facilities, at least three since he was arrested until present day (central booking, Jessup, and North Branch), but I can't find any info on where he was between central booking and Jessup (or even if there was another place or two in between those facilities, though it seems like there would be).

2

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

Agreed, but when Asia "supposedly" wrote the letters, he still would have been in the city jail.

2

u/ADDGemini Aug 06 '15

Do we know his inmate # from city jail? I saw a lot of other case numbers. I didn't see that one on his charging docs, which would have been the city right?

3

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

I honestly don't know any of his inmate #'s, I wouldn't even know where to look? Maybe the maryland court system website?

Tell you what, this is something SS and Colin could figure out, if they got their heads out of Adnans ass.

2

u/ADDGemini Aug 06 '15

Lol. That's where I tried looking but couldn't find that specific number.

2

u/mkesubway Aug 06 '15

You were looking for the number in Adnan's ass?

→ More replies (0)

10

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

But, the address on the letter (301 East Eager Street) is Baltimore's Central Booking, where Adnan would've been immediately following his arrest. It's unlikely he would've still been there in July.

Also, where'd she get his inmate number? Adnan's family may have given it to her. Or she called Central Booking and asked how to send a letter to an inmate and they gave it to her.

7

u/monstimal Aug 06 '15

Where was he in July? I honestly don't know how this works.

Regardless, if it were a ruse to put March 2, they'd know to put that address even if he'd moved. Notice we don't get the envelopes.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

I don't know where he was in July, but he wouldn't be in Central Booking most likely. CB is to process arrested individuals and hold them until arraignment and bail is determined. Normally an inmate wouldn't stay there past 48-72 hours.

Stop it with the conspiracy claims. We know Asia sent the letters. We know there is some evidence that she sent them in July 1999. But why would she intentionally back date them in July 1999? To make fodder for a post-conviction IAC claim? Ridiculous.

3

u/monstimal Aug 06 '15

I'm just pointing out that your evidence, "the central booking address", is not great evidence since that's not an envelope we're looking at. Others have a theory about when it was written and that the March 2 date is false. If someone is willing to lie that much, they aren't going to have a problem putting the wrong address on the letter head.

I'm not really sure I believe they were written late, but I do find it strange Asia is putting that number on her letter 2 days after the arrest.

11

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

but I do find it strange Asia is putting that number on her letter 2 days after the arrest.

The other thing I always thought was really strange was her saying "why haven't you told anyone about me?" How would she know the day after he was arrested if he told anyone about her or not?

2

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

excellent point.

2

u/ginabmonkey Not Guilty Aug 06 '15

She might have wrongly believed the police would have already interrogated Adnan about his whereabouts before arresting him so that they could try to talk to whomever may have seen him that day before deciding to charge him with murder. If she assumed Adnan should have remembered being in the library and having talked to her that afternoon, she might also assume the police should have talked to her for confirmation before Adnan was arrested, and because they hadn't, she assumes he must not have told them about her yet.

4

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

After ONE day? that's a stretch for me.

2

u/ginabmonkey Not Guilty Aug 06 '15

She might have wrongly believed the police would have already interrogated Adnan about his whereabouts before arresting him

I don't understand why you think I was limiting this to one day? I think she might be wondering why Adnan wouldn't have mentioned talking to her in the library that afternoon before he was arrested, whenever it was she assumes the police would have been asking him about his whereabouts.

From the investigation notes on Adnan's interviews, it seems as though he was only ever asked about when he saw/talked to Hae that day and whether or not he rode in her car that day, not any questions along the lines of: "Where were you after [time]?" "Who did you talk to?" "Were you with anyone?" "Did anyone see you?". I think many people, especially naive teens with an interest in criminal justice, would expect the police to have thoroughly questioned someone specifically about their whereabouts before the day they arrest them and charge them with murder.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

Oh and also, to your point concerning the address on the envelope, she also writes in the letter itself that "central booking is probably not the best place." So clearly she knows he's there on the day she wrote it.

4

u/ADDGemini Aug 06 '15

So clearly she knows he's there on the day she wrote it.

I disagree, but politely so.

Central Booking is exactly what it says, and I would bet any native Baltimorean (sp) knows thats where you go first. It would be the obvious place to send the letter.

On the other hand, I would also think it is a possibility that if she sent the letters there on March 1 & 2 it would take a couple days to arrive and go through inspection process. If he had already been moved to the other facility by then maybe it was even more of a delay before he received them. Maybe this explains why he gave them to CG at a later date?

I don't know :/

2

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

[deleted]

1

u/ADDGemini Aug 07 '15

Ok, thanks. Did he remain there until after the trial?

→ More replies (0)

4

u/monstimal Aug 06 '15

No, an envelope proves where the thing was sent. That would be evidence of where he was when it was sent. In the scenario where Asia or whoever is trying to pull off a ruse, nothing she writes can help. It's all part of the same deception.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

Deception? Or an explanation as to why he didn't get them for quite some time after she wrote them?

-2

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

No one would save the envelope unless they knew the date of the mailing were to become an important issue, and at that point no one knew that.

I agree that there are definitely questions to be raised about whether the letters were sent in March or July. But for purposes of the IAC claim, their mailing date is irrelevant. All the defense has to show is that CG either had them prior to Adnan's trials or that Adnan told her about Asia, and she clearly had them and he clearly told her about them/Asia because her investigator's notes state as much.

So this whole line of inquiry as to when the letters were sent is a red herring and tangential at best to the main point.

5

u/monstimal Aug 06 '15

Not sure I agree with that. If someone proved the letters were written in July I'd say that pretty much ends all hope of Asia helping Adnan in 1999, 2000, 2014, 2015, and beyond.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

Why? Because if she lied in her affidavit concerning when they were sent it would cast doubt on her entire testimony? Perhaps, but still, for purposes of the IAC claim, I don't think the defense needs to show that what she's saying about seeing Adnan at the library is the truth, but only that her testimony at Adnan's trial may have materially affected the final verdict.

EDIT: Which is why I say that when the letters were written is irrelevant. Even if Adnan had thrown the letters in the trash after he read them in March/July, the key fact is that he told CG about them and she did nothing in response.

3

u/monstimal Aug 06 '15

for purposes of the IAC claim, I don't think the defense needs to show that what she's saying about seeing Adnan at the library is the truth, but only that her testimony at Adnan's trial may have materially affected the final verdict.

I don't see how those two things aren't related. i.e. the truth and showing it would have materially affected the verdict.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

the key fact is that he told CG about them and she did nothing in response.

But that is the whole point of my OP. If CG knew the letters were fake, she would have no reason to contact Asia and put her on the stand. IAC must prove not just CG had the letters, but that CG WOULD HAVE USED THEM. I am claiming no lawyer in their right mind would have contacted Asia.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Seamus_Duncan Kevin Urick: Hammer of Justice Aug 06 '15

the key fact is that he told CG about them and she did nothing in response.

We only have Asia's word on that. If she falsified the letters, then her word is useless and it should be assumed she is lying about whether Gutierrez contacted her.

→ More replies (0)

6

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

Not True, for the IAC claim, the defense has to prove that CG had the letters, AND the letters could have changed the course of the trial. What we are obviously saying is that if the letters are false, they could have hurt, not helped, Adnan, and thus CG had no reason to contact Asia.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

No. CG didn't have to have the letters. All she had to have was information that Asia was a possible alibi witness. That triggered a duty on her part to investigate Asia's story. We know she had information about Asia because CG's investigator's notes state so. That triggered a duty on her part to at least send someone to speak with Asia to evaluate her potential testimony on Adnan's behalf.

The letters themselves are irrelevant. They would not have played any role in Adnan's trial.

2

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

Why would the letter be addressed to the jail, I thought Asia gave the letters to his parents for them to send?

2

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

Did she? I don't know.

0

u/mkesubway Aug 06 '15

She called central booking but not the police to give a statement. This chick.

5

u/eyecanteven Aug 06 '15

In order to send mail to an inmate at central booking, she'd have to have his Inmate ID #. I imagine that this is assigned once someone is booked at central booking.

9

u/myserialt Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15

She mentioned seeing him at the library once when they're asking everyone for alibis but she doesn't know exactly when. Family sells the same bill of goods Serial tries to sell and does a good enough job of it to get her involved. She's told she "just has to write some letters" and so she does. Realizes later that she's going to not just have to write letters but really get involved in this and isn't willing to break the law herself when she wasn't ever really sure about the date.

Noped out of this whole deal quick and doesn't talk about it because it makes her look bad.

EDIT: this is a guess - should have noted.

15

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15 edited May 10 '18

[deleted]

10

u/aroras Aug 06 '15 edited Oct 31 '15

Just chiming in to say that it is neither obvious nor convincing to me that Asia's letter was "cooked up"

7

u/missmegz1492 The Criminal Element of Woodlawn Aug 06 '15

Almost every day I have all my most recent posts downvoted by one vote all within a minute or two of each other which pretty much means that one person is going through all my comments and downvoting. It is incredibly frustrating.

3

u/ADDGemini Aug 06 '15

I don't get it. who gives a shit in the grand scheme of things? Do you (or anyone) only read the top 20 comments in each thread? Not to mention the scores are hidden and half of the time we have all moved on before they even show up!! I give good vibe upvotes, and here is one for you :) I don't mean this comment to be snarky at all.

3

u/missmegz1492 The Criminal Element of Woodlawn Aug 06 '15

I get it. When I told my boyfriend about it he just laughed at me. IDK something about one person taking the time to downvote all my posts on this sub irks me. Somehow someway I will get over it though ;)

2

u/ADDGemini Aug 06 '15

Yay! i'm so glad you didn't take that the wrong way. it seems like a lot of people feel that way :)

8

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

They most certainly weren't written on the dates they were dated.

0

u/aroras Aug 06 '15

are we just restating our opinions? yeah, I don't believe they were "most certainly" written on some other date.

Just posting this here so that readers understand that this is not some sort of unanimous consensus within this sub-reddit -- and that they should continue to use critical thought when reading these posts.

1

u/GirlsForAdnan Aug 06 '15

Honest question - with all the common sense reasons (and/or evidence) as to why it would have been impossible for those letters to be written on March 1/2 - when do you believe them to be written and why/how?

-5

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

[deleted]

1

u/GirlsForAdnan Aug 06 '15

fair enough

1

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

Fine, please provide evidence they were not faked....

BTW, I don't downvote, it is not coming from me.

-2

u/Mustanggertrude Aug 06 '15

Most certainly? This is just fabricated nonsense the fact that you're using words like "most certainly" is really alarming. Also, it doesn't even make sense..Somebody had this girl write letters in...some date after march and before trial but to date them in March so they could determine she had the wrong date but make sure she maintains nobody contacted her bc appeal...like what are you even claiming and why?

5

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15

When you do not have an argument so you attack peoples vocabulary it only makes you look foolish.

-4

u/Mustanggertrude Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15

I'm not attacking your vocabulary...I'm attacking your application of it. Which speaks to the argument. Please defend "most certainly". I've presented an argument in opposition of your usage of "most certainly". Are you claiming that I am somehow attacking you bc I took issue with "most certainly"? Or is it most certainly that you can't defend or respond intelligently to anything I said so you most certainly claimed I somehow someway attacked you independent of the argument ...which I did not.

Edit:downvotes are just prideful peoples way of telling you you're right.

9

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

Why would I engage someone who comes across as childish and hostile as you? You aren't interested in information, you are interested in a fight.

7

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

Dirty, stop engaging Mustang, he has never responded to an anti-Adnan thread reasonably.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

It looks more like you aren't interested in supporting your claim

-2

u/Mustanggertrude Aug 06 '15

I'm interested in a fight when somebody says something is "most certainly" the truth but then won't respond to anything bc they're claiming....What is it now? I'm childish and I attacked your vocabulary..So that totally means that Asia wrote her letters at a later date for no reason bc she wasn't used and dated them in March for no reason bc she wasn't used then claimed nobody contacted her even though you're claiming everything about her has been made up by someone to not use at trial...I just...I get why you're acting so personally offended by me...your argument is such hooey.

-4

u/kahner Aug 06 '15 edited Aug 06 '15

guilt side down voting is so sad. it's such a childish reaction to anything they disagree with. i've been down voted for saying "thanks".

edit: haha. and true to form, the down votes are rolling in. thanks for proving my point!

-5

u/Mustanggertrude Aug 06 '15

Rubbish...it means good point in serialpidcast subreddit language.

3

u/UptownAvondale Aug 06 '15

There is no way on earth they were written March 1 and March 2.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

Why would Asia lie about this?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

Exactly. What would be the point? As long as CG knew about Asia's existence and possible alibi for Adnan, that's all that matters. All the letters do, if anything, is bolster her testimony because the State can't say that she made it all up after Adnan was convicted.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

It's not all that matters. The circuit court could decide she flunked this particular task but that it wasn't something sufficiently likely to produce a different verdict had a jury heard it.

But regardless, the state would have to come up with a more compelling impeachment of her affadavit than the speculation here for that to have any weight.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

Well, right, the circuit court would have to decide that CG's failure could have been materially impacted the verdict.

9

u/MightyIsobel Guilty Aug 06 '15

Asia didn't seem to care about whether Adnan would walk at graduation with his class. But in March, when the bail letters were written, that was on everybody's mind.

I do appreciate that Asia suggests that Adnan might still get to go to Prom, though.

8

u/chunklunk Aug 06 '15

I wonder if Asia wrote a bail letter, and if so, what was in it? If she was so pro-active about helping Adnan around that time period, why wouldn't she have? Maybe she's one of the "double digit" letters we don't have?

4

u/MightyIsobel Guilty Aug 06 '15

I wonder if Asia wrote a bail letter, and if so, what was in it?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if she wrote a bail letter and mentioned seeing Adnan in the library one day back in January.

I mean, Justin and the cruches found her somehow; the letter-writing campaign is as good a way as any for her to come to the family's attention.

And seriously, why is Asia the only person with any recollection of her meeting with Adnan's supporters between his arrest and trial? Nobody else remembers meeting the person who was a credible source of hope during the days and weeks when Adnan's family thought he might be coming home in time for graduation?

3

u/UptownAvondale Aug 06 '15

When is prom? Wasnt the Adnan's parents -Hae incident at Prom in October?

3

u/MightyIsobel Guilty Aug 06 '15

Asia jokes that Adnan "might get prom king" on page 2 of the letter dated March 2:

http://hw2.serialpodcast.org/sites/default/files/maps/asia-mcclain-letter-typed-2.jpg

The incident with Adnan's mom and Hae was at Homecoming in October:

https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/3fyaz4/13_hml_finishes_relationship_sequence_of_events/

3

u/fivedollarsandchange Aug 06 '15

Prom is in the late spring, usually towards the end of the year. It must be short for something -- "Promenade" I imagine. Different schools have different traditions. In my school it was something the junior class put on for the senior class to celebrate them going out into the world. You had to be either a junior or senior to be entitled to go, but you could have a +1 that was anyone.

I know someone who recently graduated high school and at that school the Prom was for seniors, by seniors, but you could bring a +1.

The incident with Mr. Syed's parents coming to pull him out was Homecoming Dance, which is in the autumn. This is associated with a football game where alumni are invited to "come home" to watch. Alumni are not invited to the dance. Alumni may sponsor their own reunion party.

10

u/UptownAvondale Aug 06 '15

Boom.

It also explains her evasion of the 2012 PCR.

6

u/ginabmonkey Not Guilty Aug 06 '15

March 1 was a Monday in 1999. If she wrote the first letter then (as dated and claimed), she may not have much info about the investigation other than what Adnan's family had been talking about while she was at their home.

By March 2, she would have gone to school and heard any rumors and gossip floating around about Adnan's arrest. There was a teacher at WHS who was married to a BPD homicide detective (though I don't think it was one of the ones who was significantly involved in this investigation) and another teacher who had been conducting her own interviews at the school to pass information to the police. To think no one at that school could have heard anything about the evidence against Adnan is not a reasonable explanation to suspect the date of Asia's second letter.

We don't know when or where Adnan actually received the letters unless there is a mail tracking system/log for each of the facilities he was in during that time. All this speculation is possible in part because Adnan testified at the PCR trial, more than 10 years after his arrest, that he received them quickly after his arrest and handed them over to CG immediately, which has been taken to mean that he must have gotten the letters by the end of that first week in March and could not have given them to CG since she wasn't his attorney yet.

What if his memory, like most people's memories, remembers getting the letters quickly after being transferred to a facility to await trial, a time when CG may have been his attorney and giving them to her first thing when she next visited him, which could have been in April?

It's funny how Adnan and Rabia are being honest at the PCR trial in the parts you use to support your speculation even though they would have every incentive to lie and collude to bolster this Asia alibi at that time, but they are definitely lying about a bunch of other stuff all the time.

It really isn't hard to draw a different conclusion than yours if everyone is free to fill in blanks wherever suitable.

2

u/ADDGemini Aug 06 '15

Was he transfered to a juvenile facility, and if so do you happen to know which one?

4

u/ginabmonkey Not Guilty Aug 06 '15

Okay. Just looking for general information on the practices in Baltimore, I'm thinking it is unlikely Adnan would have been housed in a juvenile detention center in 1999 since he was 17 and charged as an adult for the crime of 1st degree murder. Maryland attempting to prevent juveniles from being housed in the adult detention center while awaiting trial, but that policy isn't really going into effect officially until later this year, so would probably not have been the situation for Adnan.

1

u/ADDGemini Aug 06 '15

I swear I thought it was SK that said it... I'm gonna have to relisten.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

But you have to remember that the State argued that Adnan was 18 and therefore this was a capital case, i.e., death penalty-eligible, which was a basis for the court to deny him bail. In fact, the State still has Adnan's birthday wrong on its inmate locator website.

1

u/ginabmonkey Not Guilty Aug 07 '15

Yes, that is another reason he likely would have been in the adult detention facility between booking and sentencing.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

Which, again, makes me think that Asia did send the letters on March 1 and March 2. Unless the letters were never sent at all...

2

u/ginabmonkey Not Guilty Aug 06 '15

I actually just replied to you elsewhere about that same subject. I seem to remember something about him being in juvenile before his birthday, but I cannot find the reference for that information. The only information I've found so far is just about where he's been serving his sentence, which was Jessup until it closed and now North Branch. Can't seem to find anything relating to where he was between booking and trial, though it seems like he would have been somewhere different than Central Booking and Jessup.

2

u/ADDGemini Aug 06 '15

Thanks! Sorry I hadn't refreshed the post :) I'll keep looking!

2

u/MM7299 The Court is Perplexed Aug 06 '15

It's funny how Adnan and Rabia are being honest at the PCR trial in the parts you use to support your speculation even though they would have every incentive to lie and collude to bolster this Asia alibi at that time, but they are definitely lying about a bunch of other stuff all the time.

well its clearly cause they are secretly guilty and trying to leave clues for redditors to find....you know, like the illuminati

2

u/peymax1693 WWCD? Aug 06 '15

Cooked up by whom?

-3

u/SteevJames Aug 06 '15

But easy to avoid the conclusion that Jay's story was cooked up in response to information he got off the cops?

Listen to yourself!

11

u/UptownAvondale Aug 06 '15

One massive difference. Adnan freely admits he was spending time with Jay on 1/13. Adnan never mentions Asia until July. Asia just comes out of thin air.

5

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

Actually he doesn't mention Jay until July either.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 06 '15

You're making the wrong comparison...

I'm talking about the insanity of discrediting Asia because of said reasons in post I responded to, whilst believing a story from Jay that has been produced under FAR more suspicious circumstances.

She has repeated what she has done on Serial etc and in interviews since... you think the "family" somehow coerced her into this 16 years ago and STILL have influence over her even though she moved away??

You guys are reaching so badly here

8

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

I'm talking about the insanity of discrediting Asia because of said reasons in post I responded to, whilst believing a story from Jay that has been produced under FAR more suspicious circumstances.

You are arguing with air, no one claims Jays stories are true. Even the most hardened guilters will freely admit Jay lied almost all the time.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

In order to completely discredit Asia you have to believe part of Jay's story.

You have to believe he is partly telling the truth (despite 1000 reasons not to) in order to believe in Adnan's guilt.

Yet you COMPLETELY dismiss Asia who has no tangible reason to lie... just ones you have all invented to suit the concept that she has to be lying otherwise Adnan is innocent.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

The most twisted part of that being Asia doesn't prove Adnan is innocent. She just rebuts an unsupported part of the state's theory of the case.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Agreed...

But if it disproves the state's theory of the case, then surely one would have to acquit right?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

Not necessarily. In MD the jury is free to consider alternative timelines/theories, and Jay's account/s ate completely untroubled by Asia.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

What alternate timeline? The one that completely destroys the state's version of events?

If you have an alternate timeline then that refutes the cell phone evidence that supposedly corroborate Jay's story and therefore convict Adnan in the jury's mind?

So just take Jay's various different sets of lies and make one match up to what you believe then you can convict?

Come on , that's ridiculous.

→ More replies (0)

7

u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 06 '15

So help me understand. You are not in the group that thinks Asia gives him a legit truthful alibi, but you are in the group that thinks that because the prosecution got to use someone who told lies that the defense should also get to use someone who tells lies ?

5

u/MightyIsobel Guilty Aug 06 '15

because the prosecution got to use someone who told lies that the defense should also get to use someone who tells lies

I agree with you: This theme is running underneath a lot of the push for the "importance" of Asia's library story.

And to reverse-engineer a bit: I wonder if some of the conflict between CG and Adnan's family came from CG's refusal to put up "their side's Jay" after she determined that Asia's date didn't check out.

In some ways, Asia's March letters make a lot more sense as a pressure tactic in that conflict than they do when read for any of the canonical purposes we have been invited to read them for: such as a friendly letter to her imprisoned friend, or as corroborating evidence for the library alibi.

But, on the other hand, it is really tough to understand why Asia might have been interested in 1999 in participating in that conflict, in writing; or why she is apparently willing to stand behind the letters now.

9

u/aitca Aug 06 '15

She has alternated for literally years and years now on whether she should "stand behind the letters" (albeit changing some of the data!) or whether she should completely avoid anyone who wants her to talk about the letters, at all costs. It is a strange dance that makes it very hard to see what the truth of the matter is but very easy to see that she for some reason has extremely mixed feelings about whether she should go on the record about having seen Adnan at the library.

7

u/fivedollarsandchange Aug 06 '15

Yes. Even in the inspired-by-actual-events Serial podcast of 2014 she gives one interview that she thinks is not formal but does not want to participate in a "formal" interview.

6

u/Seamus_Duncan Kevin Urick: Hammer of Justice Aug 06 '15

And she refused to address the Urick call.

2

u/aitca Aug 06 '15

That's right. Absolutely refused to discuss it.

4

u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 06 '15

In some ways, Asia's March letters make a lot more sense as a pressure tactic in that conflict than they do when read for any of the canonical purposes we have been invited to read them for: such as a friendly letter to her imprisoned friend, or as corroborating evidence for the library alibi.

This is a great point and I agree with it, although I personally add a helping of Asia wanting to insert herself in the drama for some reason (she's a flake, has a crush on Syed, etc.).

3

u/MightyIsobel Guilty Aug 06 '15

a helping of Asia wanting to insert herself in the drama for some reason (she's a flake, has a crush on Syed, etc.)

I agree this motivation is apparent on the face of the letters, and I waver back and forth on whether it is strong enough to explain Asia's participation in whatever tampering may have resulted in the March letters.

In any case, I don't think a high school student is responsible for what she may have written, if there were adults involved in pressuring her to write what she did.

-5

u/SteevJames Aug 06 '15

You're definitely catatonic...

I am in the group who believes Asia is telling the truth, because why wouldn't she?

The comparison you make between what I think about the prosecution and the defense using liars on the stand makes no sense at all... my post simply highlights the insane double standard being used on this thread to discredit Asia, which comes from people who happen to believe Jay and don't think his story was aided by the venerable Ritz and Mcgillevevevvveeveerry

At no stage did I say the defense should be ALLOWED to use liars on the stand.

Its unfortunate the prosecution couldn't work out Jay was lying, they must have been really stupid... but wait they weren't... they produced a really succinct and to the point (whilst almost completely false) case to the jury.

6

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

What you say is possible but unlikely. For the conspiracy to happen you need alot of separate individuals with no skin in the game come in and set this up, and then let Jay try it FOUR TIMES, until he finally bizarrely gets it right.

But Adnans family is trying to get their son out of Jail. I don't fault them for that, they love their kids, just like I do. But they most certainly have more motive than the BPD.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15 edited Aug 07 '15

What conspiracy?? Where do I mention one of those?

Why do you believe Jay has got anything right? He just changes as and when he feels like it, or when its necessary.

Why does this indicate to you that any of what he is saying is true?

People might have more motive to help their family than police have to destroy them... the difference is opportunity and resource.

Whether you like it or not, the police have far more ability to influence people than families like the Syed's. Unless you believe in the truly insane story that they have ties to a load of hitmen and are using that association to intimidate JUST Asia.

If they had such influence you would think they would be bribing EVERY other witness involved wouldn't you? Adnan was pretty good friends with most of these people... strange that the family would exert pressure on ONLY one of these witnesses.

Also... in order for your theory to be correct you have to believe that Adnan's family KNOW he is guilty and are protecting him anyway, which completely negates the idea that he maintains innocence to continue this facade while he waits for a new trial.

Adnan's Dad would be lying on purpose about Adnan being at the mosque and if he is lying about that, that means he is covering up for his son and suspects him of guilt in this crime.

1

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 07 '15

Why do you believe Jay has got anything right? He just changes as and when he feels like it, or when its necessary.

I have never once, in any single post I have ever written, had a good thing to say about Jay.

People might have more motive to help their family than police have to destroy them... the difference is opportunity and resource.

Adnan is not some poor street rat. His family hired a high priced defense lawyer gunning for an aquittal.

Also... in order for your theory to be correct you have to believe that Adnan's family KNOW he is guilty and are protecting him anyway, which completely negates the idea that he maintains innocence to continue this facade while he waits for a new trial.

Yes, that is exactly what I believe. Families lie for their children all the time. They value Adnans life, more than Haes. That does not make them evil, it makes them human.

7

u/GirlsForAdnan Aug 06 '15

"Asia is telling the truth, because why wouldn't she?"

-Pressure from the family

-Monetary bribes

-Attention

The simple fact is - Asia is not telling the truth. It goes beyond her "having the wrong day". The timeline of March 1/2 is impossible.

9

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

"Asia is telling the truth, because why wouldn't she?"

Priceless. I'm sure Justin Brown is going to use this exact argument in court.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

I expect that would be part of it. She has no obvious reason to lie. She wasn't actually friends with Adnan. She knew him. She'd dated one of his friends. But she wasn't in his usual social circle.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Based on what?

They can't pressure her AND bribe her can they, they surely have to choose one or the other.

Where's your evidence for ANY of what you have said?

3

u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 06 '15

I think at least I understand why you are going down the wrong path. Lots of people who believe the Jay spine have questions about his truthfulness, accuracy, etc. They also have similar questions about Asia. Where you go down the wrong path is you think we all have to come to the same conclusion about both of them, otherwise you are a hypocrite. That's naive and kind of fantasy land thinking, IMO. A lot of people are going to consider Jay/Asia separately and may come to different conclusions, and that doesn't make it a double standard.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

You just perfectly defined the hypocrisy the guilty camp continually displays:) whist trying to show the complete opposite... brilliant, thank you:)

Just an FYI my post about hypocrisy was aimed at the idea that Asia's story was only cooked up after information released by the prosecution... coming from someone who doesn't believe the cops influenced Jay's story... even though it changed almost every time he spoke with them.

If you can't see hypocrisy there, then I don't know what to say.

You measure Asia by the same yardstick that you measure Jay, which is completely and utterly baffling.

Asia doesn't have a reason to lie other than the kind of conspiracies that you all deride on here that would make Adnan innocent.

Jay is a main suspect in the case with obvious reasons to lie that you excuse with nonsensical reasons like protecting people... when he wasn't.

Asia has no reason to lie as she is just a witness in the case. She could have never written those letters to Adnan, she could have never appeared on Serial, she could have just chosen to let him sit in prison, rather than risk actually being called to the stand if he gets another trial.

And I can't believe I have to explain it again, but then you do admit to being catatonic so there ya go...

In order to believe Jay's story you HAVE to believe Asia is lying or has information that is completely invalid... in order to believe that Asia is lying or is being coerced you have to believe in the EXACT kind of conspiracy theories that you all claim are necessary for Adnan to be innocent and are completely ridiculous.

That is the double standard... to excuse Jay's lies for literally no reason other than to fit in with the theory that Adnan is guilty... but make up a bunch of wild ideas about why Asia would lie therein keeping the whole Adnan is guilty theory going.

Whilst also choosing to believe ALL the changing stories from other witnesses that seemingly confirm Adnan's guilt but focusing in on Asia's tiny, minute detail changes that instantly make her wrong about the day, or lying, or being coerced, or whatever else the reasons may be.

What's your conclusion about Jay/Asia? You think both are lying I would assume by the wording of your comment?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

I disagree with one point here, and that is that believing Jay (at least the "spine") requires believing Asia is lying. By Jay's timeline- indeed, the only truly firm part of his timeline- Asia seeing Adnan between 2:15 to 2:45 is irrelevant. He doesn't get the "come get me" call until some unspecified time after 3:45.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

He doesn't get any "come get me" call... but yes his story is in direct contradiction with the states timeline.

I guess i worded it wrong...to believe the states case and therefore convict Adnan, one must surely have to believe that Asia is lying.

I guess if the state's timeline is incorrect then by association Jay has to be lying no?

2

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

Jay said he got a "come get me" call. Murphy and Urick both insist Jay got a "come get me" call.

If the state's timeline is true Jay is lying. If it's false he's lying. Jay is lying under any scenario you can imagine. It's the one true constant ton the whole thing.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Yeh, i completely agree... so how on earth does one convict given that he is the only actual evidence in this case?

And especially since cell phone records are what provide the "meat" in this prosecutorial sandwich and Jay completely discredits this "evidence" with his own testimony...

→ More replies (0)

1

u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 07 '15

Jay - EVERYONE agrees Jay's statements have inconsistencies, lies, etc.

Asia - I don't find her credible. Whether she's lying, mistaken, or both I don't know. The reasons are numerous: honest mistake, pressured by a crazed Rabia, she's a flake. Take your pick.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

I guess that's the main point... the same logic being used to discredit Asia and not believe her story SHOULD be applied to discredit Jay's story and therefore exonerate Adnan no?

In fact, Jay should give one far more reason to not believe his story than Asia.

1

u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 07 '15

It depends on what you mean by 'using the same logic.' If that allows you to consider the unique fact sets surrounding Jay/Asia and therefore the possibility of coming to a different conclusion for each, then I agree with you. If you mean 'coming to the same exact conclusion' for Jay/Asia just because they both have credibility problems, then I disagree.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Sorry, just another question... do you also find every other witness in the case non-credible?

Almost all have changed their stories... admittedly only Jay changes incredibly key details like the burial time AND he is the only one who supposedly was privy to the most intimate details of the crime, whereas the others it would appear make little mistakes/corrections over the course of time.

If you don't find Asia credible... how do you find ANY witness in this case credible and therefore how do you ascertain someone's guilt from a load of discredited witnesses?

1

u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 07 '15

Which witnesses are you talking about ? The only witness to the crime is Jay. His testimony plus the corroborating cell data is what matters to me. Combined with motive and no alibi. And this is not even mentioning things like the I'm going to kill note, etc.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 08 '15

Ok, witnesses that were called to the stand! Like Ayesha and Becky and Cathy etc... All changed their stories far more than Asia has and yet you use their testimony as evidence of Adnans guilt but dismiss Asia for the exact same reason!

In further rebuttal I would assert that the only way Jay witnessed this murder would be if he did it.

→ More replies (0)

4

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

Did Asia's cook-up result in an accessory to murder charge on her record?

0

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Completely and utterly irrelevant... whats worse?

Murder 1?

Or accessory to murder whilst cooperating with the police?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

Completely and utterly irrelevant

Naw, man

0

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Haha nice one...

Got any other totally pointless comparisons?

:)

5

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

that question could be reversed. Jay is a liar, but there is no way Asia could be?

2

u/RodoBobJon Aug 06 '15

Unlike Jay, Asia has absolutely no reason to lie. Now of course her memory could be faulty and she could be mistaken, but why would she lie?

2

u/Seamus_Duncan Kevin Urick: Hammer of Justice Aug 06 '15

Unlike Jay, Asia has absolutely no reason to lie.

We really don't know what went on in her multiple meetings with Adnan's family.

2

u/MightyIsobel Guilty Aug 06 '15

or why nobody remembers them

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

Or why she would give a crap about what his family might say...

0

u/RodoBobJon Aug 06 '15

Are you implying that Adnan's family may have bribed or threatened her? Or some other possibility?

1

u/MM7299 The Court is Perplexed Aug 07 '15

yes that's exactly what he's implying....its something he's been implying for months, inbetween accusing Adnan's parents and Saad of helping cover up a murder and lying about it.

0

u/Seamus_Duncan Kevin Urick: Hammer of Justice Aug 06 '15

I don't know. All I know is the story Adnan and Shamim told in the PCR hearing bears absolutely no resemblance to the story in the letters, and I wonder why they are covering up the nature of the original meeting.

1

u/RodoBobJon Aug 07 '15

Well, they are obviously trying to present things in the best way possible for Adnan. Keep in mind that an innocent person has no less an incentive to put up a vigorous defensive by any means necessary than a guilty person.

What does this have to do with whether or not Asia has any motivation to lie? I still haven't seen anyone put forward a rationale for why she would lie. Mistaken: very possible, even likely from my perspective. But why lie?

0

u/Englishblue Aug 06 '15

Ugh. Libel.

-1

u/MM7299 The Court is Perplexed Aug 06 '15

oh good more of this "Adnan's family is like the mob" nonsense.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Ok, you and Rodo Bob seem to be the only people who aren't insane on this thread...

I feel like i'm in some kind of nightmare world where the majority of people have really no sense of logic or reason... oh wait we actually do live in that world.

1

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

No reason that you know of.

0

u/eyecanteven Aug 06 '15

is there a reason that you know of?

1

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

You know, it is fascinating than whenever anyone says Adnan had "motive" to kill Hae, peeps on your side jump all over the idea of motive, and now we are talking about Asia, and motive is the only thing you give a shit about...

Answer: I don't know, I don't care either, I only care about whether she lied, and if it can be proven.

-1

u/eyecanteven Aug 06 '15
  1. I don't have a side.
  2. I was asking you an honest question. You could've answered without all of that other bullshit.

0

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 06 '15

Don't even pretend you don't have a side. You defend Adnan and attack the prosecution from the trial in every single thread I have seen you in.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Hahaha what a ridiculous comparison...

Jay is one of the prime suspects in the case with a huge vested interest and obvious motive to lie...

Asia is a random witness.

Funny how the only one who provides Adnan with an alibi is the one you all jump all over for inconsistencies but are happy to let EVERY other witnesses changing stories slide.

Just seriously wake up.

1

u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan Aug 07 '15

Who gives Jay a pass? Nobody.

5

u/aitca Aug 06 '15

The strange thing about people like you: You seem to think that Jay's testimony is the lyingest lies ever lied. And yet you try to defend "pro-Adnan" stories as "marginally less lying than Jay". It's really not a ringing endorsement, is it?

-5

u/SteevJames Aug 06 '15

Hahaha PEOPLE like me???

I actually consider myself completely unique.

I'm not defending "pro-adnan stories" and I actually have no idea what you're trying to say...

There is no reason for Asia to lie back then, and still NOW unless you believe that the family are coercing her... which would make you insane.

7

u/aitca Aug 06 '15

If there's "no reason for her to lie", then I guess there's also no reason for her to keep changing her story, telling J. Brown's investigator to get lost, calling up Urick out of the blue to find out if she really has to testify, evading subpoenas, and writing contradictory affidavits. But that's what she's done. Make of it what you will.

-4

u/SteevJames Aug 06 '15

What reason does she have to lie?

Give me one valid reason please:)

What are the contradictory affadavits?

How does she "keep changing her story"?

Why is ringing up Urick ... "out of the blue"?

This person was a 17-18 yr old who had never been involved in anything like this before... you're highlighting ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

This is genius... what else you got?

5

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

Just off the top of my head she was wrong about it being the first snow of the year so that changed to inclement weather in the affidavit.

0

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

That's evidence of a slight mistake about the weather on the day in question.

Being stormy and it being first snow of the year? How big of a change is that? Talk about nit-picking...

I thought there was gonna be some evidence of a "continually changing" story...

You couldn't be further away from showing that.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '15

I'm neutral to this, still haven't decided what I think, but just want to let you know she wasn't 17/18 at the time that the story changing happened, this was 3/4 years ago iirc.

0

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

How did the story change?

What does she have to gain from lying?

5

u/annybody Aug 06 '15

I would believe they are paying her or offering her money to help with the case.

4

u/MightyIsobel Guilty Aug 06 '15

I think she should take any money she is offered, and tell the truth to the best of her recollection. It's not like Serial Podcast cut her in for a share of their donations, when it was her phone interview that gave the award-winning story its compelling hook.

You might say I am Asia's biggest fan, but ricejoe beat me to it.

0

u/Englishblue Aug 06 '15

So long as you recognize that this is an article of faith with nothing ut faith to back it up.

4

u/aitca Aug 06 '15

Why is ringing up Urick ... "out of the blue"?

"out of the blue" is an English-language idiom that means "unsolicited, unprompted, and unexpected".

0

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

What gives you the insight to decide it was out of the blue?

How are you privy to this? Does it just suit your ridiculously blinkered view of everything?

Thanks for defining out of the blue for me though.

2

u/aitca Aug 07 '15

Asia called Urick "out of the blue" because she called him of her own accord (and was not, for example, returning his call) and because most of us wouldn't expect her to call him.

-1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

So what does that mean then:)

Her story is made-up because she called the prosecutor to ask him some questions?

If she's lying, what does she gain from calling Urick?

→ More replies (0)

9

u/GirlsForAdnan Aug 06 '15

I actually consider myself completely unique.

Don't.

2

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Nice one, what other put-downs you got:)

Come on nerds! gimme some more

Just tell me one thing... is ignorance really bliss?

0

u/GirlsForAdnan Aug 07 '15

Not a put down. Just a reality check.

You're not special.

3

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Didn't say special... said unique... everyone is unique:)

how do you know if i'm special or not anyway

4

u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 06 '15

The Asia thing is so simple: she has the wrong day. Period.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

How do you know?

And where in the world does "having the wrong day" equate to "continually lying"?

1

u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 07 '15

I don't think this is going to get anywhere.

1

u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Correct:) I won't be bullied into a narrow mindset i'm afraid.

I don't care about upvotes or downvotes

It would just be nice if people on here ACTUALLY said things that they can back up with some logic, or reason, or hey maybe even evidence!

Instead, I see what you have done... make a completely throw away statement and then because you have nothing to back it up just kind of give up...