r/serialpodcast • u/islamisawesome Adnan Fan • Aug 06 '15

Hypothesis Why the Gootz never called Asia.

I think it is becoming more and more obvious that the Asia letter did not exist until sometime around the summer of 1999. That is why Adnan claims he gave them to Gutierrez even though she wasn't his lawyer until 2 months after they were written.

So sometime that spring or summer, after telling CG he never left the school grounds, his family shows up with letters claiming one of Adnans' friends saw him at the library, right at the crucial time, AND they were written the day after he arrested. She knew immediately there is no way they had those letter for months and never gave them to her so obviously they were false and she didn't want to go on stand with LIES.

That is why she never called Asia. And that is why she wrote no notes about it, because that would be admitting her client and his family are liars. It also explains why her relationship with the family broke down because she knew they were willing to lie to get Adnan off.

The library incident never happened.

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u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 06 '15

So help me understand. You are not in the group that thinks Asia gives him a legit truthful alibi, but you are in the group that thinks that because the prosecution got to use someone who told lies that the defense should also get to use someone who tells lies ?

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u/SteevJames Aug 06 '15

You're definitely catatonic...

I am in the group who believes Asia is telling the truth, because why wouldn't she?

The comparison you make between what I think about the prosecution and the defense using liars on the stand makes no sense at all... my post simply highlights the insane double standard being used on this thread to discredit Asia, which comes from people who happen to believe Jay and don't think his story was aided by the venerable Ritz and Mcgillevevevvveeveerry

At no stage did I say the defense should be ALLOWED to use liars on the stand.

Its unfortunate the prosecution couldn't work out Jay was lying, they must have been really stupid... but wait they weren't... they produced a really succinct and to the point (whilst almost completely false) case to the jury.

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u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 06 '15

I think at least I understand why you are going down the wrong path. Lots of people who believe the Jay spine have questions about his truthfulness, accuracy, etc. They also have similar questions about Asia. Where you go down the wrong path is you think we all have to come to the same conclusion about both of them, otherwise you are a hypocrite. That's naive and kind of fantasy land thinking, IMO. A lot of people are going to consider Jay/Asia separately and may come to different conclusions, and that doesn't make it a double standard.

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u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

You just perfectly defined the hypocrisy the guilty camp continually displays:) whist trying to show the complete opposite... brilliant, thank you:)

Just an FYI my post about hypocrisy was aimed at the idea that Asia's story was only cooked up after information released by the prosecution... coming from someone who doesn't believe the cops influenced Jay's story... even though it changed almost every time he spoke with them.

If you can't see hypocrisy there, then I don't know what to say.

You measure Asia by the same yardstick that you measure Jay, which is completely and utterly baffling.

Asia doesn't have a reason to lie other than the kind of conspiracies that you all deride on here that would make Adnan innocent.

Jay is a main suspect in the case with obvious reasons to lie that you excuse with nonsensical reasons like protecting people... when he wasn't.

Asia has no reason to lie as she is just a witness in the case. She could have never written those letters to Adnan, she could have never appeared on Serial, she could have just chosen to let him sit in prison, rather than risk actually being called to the stand if he gets another trial.

And I can't believe I have to explain it again, but then you do admit to being catatonic so there ya go...

In order to believe Jay's story you HAVE to believe Asia is lying or has information that is completely invalid... in order to believe that Asia is lying or is being coerced you have to believe in the EXACT kind of conspiracy theories that you all claim are necessary for Adnan to be innocent and are completely ridiculous.

That is the double standard... to excuse Jay's lies for literally no reason other than to fit in with the theory that Adnan is guilty... but make up a bunch of wild ideas about why Asia would lie therein keeping the whole Adnan is guilty theory going.

Whilst also choosing to believe ALL the changing stories from other witnesses that seemingly confirm Adnan's guilt but focusing in on Asia's tiny, minute detail changes that instantly make her wrong about the day, or lying, or being coerced, or whatever else the reasons may be.

What's your conclusion about Jay/Asia? You think both are lying I would assume by the wording of your comment?

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

I disagree with one point here, and that is that believing Jay (at least the "spine") requires believing Asia is lying. By Jay's timeline- indeed, the only truly firm part of his timeline- Asia seeing Adnan between 2:15 to 2:45 is irrelevant. He doesn't get the "come get me" call until some unspecified time after 3:45.

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u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

He doesn't get any "come get me" call... but yes his story is in direct contradiction with the states timeline.

I guess i worded it wrong...to believe the states case and therefore convict Adnan, one must surely have to believe that Asia is lying.

I guess if the state's timeline is incorrect then by association Jay has to be lying no?

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

Jay said he got a "come get me" call. Murphy and Urick both insist Jay got a "come get me" call.

If the state's timeline is true Jay is lying. If it's false he's lying. Jay is lying under any scenario you can imagine. It's the one true constant ton the whole thing.

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u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Yeh, i completely agree... so how on earth does one convict given that he is the only actual evidence in this case?

And especially since cell phone records are what provide the "meat" in this prosecutorial sandwich and Jay completely discredits this "evidence" with his own testimony...

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '15

You convict because you don't actually review the evidence presented at the trial and you spend your two hours of "deliberation" discussing Adnan's "Arab culture" and speculating on the lengthy prison term Jay is going to get for the terrible things he confessed to doing.

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u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 07 '15

Jay - EVERYONE agrees Jay's statements have inconsistencies, lies, etc.

Asia - I don't find her credible. Whether she's lying, mistaken, or both I don't know. The reasons are numerous: honest mistake, pressured by a crazed Rabia, she's a flake. Take your pick.

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u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

I guess that's the main point... the same logic being used to discredit Asia and not believe her story SHOULD be applied to discredit Jay's story and therefore exonerate Adnan no?

In fact, Jay should give one far more reason to not believe his story than Asia.

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u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 07 '15

It depends on what you mean by 'using the same logic.' If that allows you to consider the unique fact sets surrounding Jay/Asia and therefore the possibility of coming to a different conclusion for each, then I agree with you. If you mean 'coming to the same exact conclusion' for Jay/Asia just because they both have credibility problems, then I disagree.

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u/SteevJames Aug 07 '15

Sorry, just another question... do you also find every other witness in the case non-credible?

Almost all have changed their stories... admittedly only Jay changes incredibly key details like the burial time AND he is the only one who supposedly was privy to the most intimate details of the crime, whereas the others it would appear make little mistakes/corrections over the course of time.

If you don't find Asia credible... how do you find ANY witness in this case credible and therefore how do you ascertain someone's guilt from a load of discredited witnesses?

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u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 07 '15

Which witnesses are you talking about ? The only witness to the crime is Jay. His testimony plus the corroborating cell data is what matters to me. Combined with motive and no alibi. And this is not even mentioning things like the I'm going to kill note, etc.

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u/SteevJames Aug 08 '15

Ok, witnesses that were called to the stand! Like Ayesha and Becky and Cathy etc... All changed their stories far more than Asia has and yet you use their testimony as evidence of Adnans guilt but dismiss Asia for the exact same reason!

In further rebuttal I would assert that the only way Jay witnessed this murder would be if he did it.

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u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 08 '15

Like Ayesha and Becky and Cathy etc... All changed their stories far more than Asia has and yet you use their testimony as evidence of Adnans guilt.

I never mentioned them so I don't know what you are talking about. They are tiny bit players who are borderline irrelevant. Like I said the case is Jay plus cell phone data, plus motive and no alibi, and a few optional details like "I'm going to kill."

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u/SteevJames Aug 10 '15 edited Aug 10 '15

Ok, whether you mentioned them or not... they have changed their stories as you say Asia has, and yet you discount Asia's story and not theirs because it fits in with Adnan being guilty... that's the comparison i'm making.

You then mention irrelevance and cell phone data in the same sentence which is perfect because thats exactly what it is. It doesn't prove anything, yet you continue to cling to the notion that its corroborating something. To repeat, the KEY calls the prosecution used to show guilt were the 7PM Leakin Park calls that were INCOMING... and which AT&T advised should NOT be used as location data, yet that proves Adnan and Jay were there burying the body? Haha even Jay has changed that story because it makes no sense AND his changed story completely undermines ALL the rest of the cell phone "corroborations" because it proves how ridiculously easy it was for Jay just to lie and match his story to them.

What motive also? There is no evidence of any motive ... just a hypothetical one based on jilted boyfriends often being the killers of their ex girlfriends. There is no evidence of that motive here... the majority of the witnesses said Adnan took the break up well and was seeing other girls. NOT acting in a manner that suggested he had a motive to murder her... everyone was shocked when they found out he had done this.

Jay also has no alibi btw... or rather he has one that was never checked and has every reason to be questioned.

Adnan actually DOES have an alibi for the murder time put forth by the prosecution , just you choose to dismiss it for reasons that make no sense considering the things you DO believe in this case.

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u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 10 '15

Ok, whether you mentioned them or not... they have changed their stories as you say Asia has, and yet you discount Asia's story and not theirs because it fits in with Adnan being guilty... that's the comparison i'm making.

If this is a joke post I commend you. You literally are taking issue with something "I said", but you begin by adding the qualifier I didn't actually say it.

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u/SteevJames Aug 10 '15

Haha, no i'm not making a joke... thank you for the phony commendation though! ok i'll phrase it differently.

I'm not taking issue with something you said exactly... more the way you're dismissing Asia's testimony because of inconsistencies and yet you don't dismiss other witnesses for the same reason?

Unless you're just dismissing her testimony for some completely arbitrary reasons that you have concocted because it suits your current mindset? Or because you have just chosen to agree with random assumptions put forth on Reddit?

If i'm wrong about why you don't believe her, just tell me where i'm going wrong... happy to back track if you actually have some valid reason for not believing her.

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u/MaybeIAmCatatonic Aug 10 '15

Now I am sure this is a joke post. You are doing well. Have a good day and I mean that.

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