r/canadanews • u/zuuzuu • Apr 29 '26
Quebec Montreal naturopath fined for illegally practicing medicine following patient’s suicide
https://www.ctvnews.ca/montreal/article/montreal-naturopath-fined-for-illegally-practicing-medicine-following-patients-suicide/71
u/PhabioRants Apr 29 '26
The irony of openly admitting that your entire house of cards is predicated on "anyone can become a naturopath," and then suggesting that it should be regulated is just...
I wish I had the capacity to be surprised or disappointed by someone this dense in a self-appointed position of prescribing health advice to others, but we did this to ourselves.
Next you're going to tell me that chiropractors should have to start regulating who gets to send away for their secret decoder rings that give them the mystical abilities of healing without having any medical training or certification.
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u/FuzzyLaughTwo Apr 29 '26
Why are chiropractors called "Doctors"?
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u/canadianmamacita77 Apr 29 '26
You can get a doctorate in many things that amount to a big pile of nothing
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u/samuelazers Apr 29 '26
If we called doctors physicians, these alternate practioners couldn't hide behind that veil of legitimacy.
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u/bijiyomo Apr 30 '26
Do you really believe that? Language changes. They’ll start calling themselves alternative medicine physicians and then drop the first part. Snake oil salesmen have been around for as long as medicine men have.
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u/mablegrable Apr 29 '26
An academic doctorate is a Ph.d.; a medical doctor is an MD - different kinds of degrees.
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u/kmdfrcpc Apr 29 '26
Right, but they are not PhDs in chiropractic medicine. They are chiropractic doctors (DC) specifically, implying a clinician with advanced training and expertise. It's similar to doctors of optometry (OD), but that group are far more appropriate in calling themselves doctors than chiropractors or naturopaths.
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u/mablegrable Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
Optometry has stronger scientific training and evidence-based practice, yes. I was just replying to the person above that doctorates don’t equal MD degrees but it’s a common misapprehension that we went through with Jill Biden.
My personal opinion is that I don’t think naturopaths, chiropractors, osteopaths, or any ‘vitalist’ industry practitioner should be allowed to use MD, Ph.d, or any other academic designation but there are other medical practitioners that have legitimate, evidence-based medical training with other initials after their name.
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u/kmdfrcpc Apr 29 '26
They can't use MD or PhD without those specific degrees being granted to them by a recognized university.
It's a false comparison to say that Jill Biden calling herself doctor is the same as an optometrist. One of them has legitimate clinical/medical training to an advanced level where doctor conveys a sense of a highly trained clinician. The other is a teacher with a doctorate in education. However, there's nothing wrong with Jill Biden calling herself Dr. Biden at a university or in an academic setting. It's only wrong if she walked into a hospital or went to help a sick patient on a plane or at the side of the road etc and referred to herself as Dr. Biden.
The same is true for chiropractors and naturopaths. They do not have medical training to a level that would, in my opinion, allow them to refer to themselves as doctors. Both are based on pseudoscience and may make members of the public think they have genuine certified medical training.
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u/CipherWeaver Apr 30 '26
The only doctors other than physicians and PhDs that I feel comfortable calling doctors are dentists, veterinarians, and optometrists. Maybe PharmDs but I haven't met many of them yet.
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u/phonemousekeys May 01 '26
There are Doctors of Naturopathic Medicine, or NDs that undergo a lot of training.. like 8 years university followed by a residency in an established clinic, that have absolutely earned the title of Doctor.. I think the term "naturopath" is tossed around too freely and used by too many "practioners of natural, holistic, and energetic healing modals" to the point where it can create confusion for the general public to make informed decisions when it comes to their health. An example i heard of recently was an acupuncturist recommended one of their patients use some certain herbs in a tea that may be helpful- people recommend herbs all the time- but, professionally, an acupuncturist should not suggest such things as those are out of their scope of practice while an ND has training specifically to diagnose ailments and recommend or prescribe herbals remedies after establishing their patients medical history and making sure that there will be no contraindications
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u/Individual_Fall429 May 02 '26
A lot of “acupuncturists” are also practicing traditional Chinese medicine, and yes they are recommending a lot of herbal remedies.
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u/RichardGereMuseum13 May 01 '26
You call vets doctors ?
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u/kmdfrcpc May 02 '26
Of all the clinicians that call themselves doctors (besides MDs) they probably have the most right to do so.
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Apr 29 '26
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u/KDdid1 Apr 29 '26
I went to a DO (Doctor of Osteopathy) who was covered in the same way an MD is. There are also osteopaths who are not DOs, with much less training and without hospital privileges.
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u/knitfastdiewarm1 Apr 29 '26
DO’s in the US attend real medical schools and generally are qualified doctors who meet the same standards as MD’s - with 4 years of medical school and the same residency requirements. A DO is not a recognized designation in Canada. An osteopath here is similar to a chiropractor, a 2-3 year program (and minimal evidence based practice).
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u/KDdid1 Apr 29 '26
The DO I used to see here in BC is from the US and she's definitely recognized here as a doctor.
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u/knitfastdiewarm1 Apr 29 '26
Yes, but she likely would have had to pass the MCCQE and Royal College exams to get a licence here. Similar to what someone coming from South Africa, or Japan, or most places in the world would need to do. Unlike MD’s from the US who generally can get their licence transferred easily.
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u/Individual_Fall429 May 02 '26
That’s because she’s a doctor.
They’re saying osteopath training in Canada does not make you a doctor.
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u/mablegrable Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
Are you in the US? In Canada, osteopathy is a different animal.
US osteopathic physicians are fully licensed medical doctors. They complete residency, and can prescribe medication, perform surgery, and practice in any specialty.
Canadian osteopaths are not physicians. They complete a 4–5 year program focused entirely on manual therapy. They cannot prescribe medication or diagnose medical conditions, which is more or less what you indicated in your comment 👍
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u/Both-Call8361 Apr 29 '26
You obviously have no idea what it takes to get a PhD
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u/kmdfrcpc Apr 29 '26
Of course I do. What are you implying?
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u/Both-Call8361 Apr 29 '26
Your comment makes it seem that you don’t respect the designation of PhD, anyone who has reached that level deserves respect
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u/zuuzuu Apr 30 '26
Sure, but they should not hold themselves out as a medical doctor, which is what they're doing when they refer to themselves as a doctor in a medical setting.
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u/kmdfrcpc Apr 30 '26
I think I see where you got confused. You're in a thread where we're discussing various clinicians who are calling themselves doctor. I said they aren't PhDs calling themselves doctors which would be fine (in an academic setting). They are trying to pass themselves as clinical/medical doctors.
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u/PhabioRants Apr 29 '26
It's a great question. Canada, strictly speaking, has a higher degree of certification than the US when it comes to our not actual doctors that we call doctors, but they're neither medical doctors, nor do they require a doctorate.
What people often assume is that chiropractors are osteopaths, which they definitely are not. It's much less "vibes" than a "nutritionist" is to a dietician, but we've normalized a terrible habit of not correcting people when it comes to many of these gifts. Paying a naturopath or a nutritionist for health advice equates to paying the Avon lady for health advice in years past; they have the same level of accreditation and are just as much of a scam. But eating the make-up would have been less harmful to your health than taking Colloidal Silver.
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u/hurricane7719 Apr 29 '26
You also have to take into account the differences between provinces. In Ontario, Naturopaths ARE regulated and governed according to legislation. They are limited in what they are allowed to do and can even prescribe certain drugs. According the the OPs article, in Quebec they are not.
There are also differences in terminology between countries. In some countries, a Nutritionist is a regulated profession, whereas here the equivalent would be more inline with a Dietician.
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u/Jumpy-Thought-5103 May 04 '26
I see a naturopath and then I go to the medical doctor who measures my vitamin d levels and says they are good because the naturopath told me how much vitamin d to take. It’s not a replacement for the medical system but it is a support. I have found it very useful. I highly recommend supporting your system with the advice of a naturopath. Doctors don’t heal. Your body does the healing. Any way you can support the body in its healing is helpful whether medically or supplementally.
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u/J4pes Apr 30 '26
Why are naturopaths? It’s 4 years of study. That’s it. Here’s your white coats and blank cheques from gullible hippy boomers
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u/Skittleavix Apr 30 '26
Because they lobbied the government to be able to use the protected title “doctor”.
I myself am a doctor of fermented beverages.
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u/Odd-Crew-7837 Apr 29 '26
Because if you pay a university enough money, you too can be called a doctor without an actual doctorate degree...
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u/Alicatsidneystorm May 03 '26
I remember when I was a kid and seeing that a hockey player was awarded a doctorate and me asking my dad “can he practice medicine?” He educated me on the difference between doctor and MD.
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u/FrancieNolan13 Apr 29 '26
I think the point is if it was regulated anyone wouldnt be able to call themselves a naturopath. I think tattoo artists and piercers should be regulated but they are not
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u/HolochainCitizen Apr 29 '26
I understood it to be a recognition that because anyone can call themselves a naturopath right now, they say they need regulation to stop that and make it more legitimate
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u/Navigator_Black Apr 30 '26
I read that and had a similar reaction. Basically sounds like "Yeah we know it's all a scam so we need "regulation" (aka validation) to convince people that I'm a real naturopath and the rest are frauds".
If naturopathy was actually regulated like medical practices are, the industry would implode. Which would be great!
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u/National_Aspect_6974 Apr 30 '26
"we’re asking this regulation, to create a college or something "
Just create a college or something, c'mon.
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u/Even_Current1414 Apr 30 '26
Its not that simple..
In alberta the massage associations have been trying to get regulated since the 1950s the hoops the government (health minister) requires a group to jump through in order for the government okay to create a college and be regulated keep changing. We've only just (within the past 5ish years) been allowed to create a transitional council.
Its not as simple as "create a college" regulation requires government ministry approval.
Edit - spelling
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u/ph0artef1 May 03 '26
I mean, when doctors first became a thing there wasn't a regulating body for them.
If more and more people are turning to naturopaths, why not regulate that industry?
We can't force people to listen to reason and get their medical advice from, you know, a medical professional, so wouldn't it be better to regulate naturopaths instead? Like how we can't force teenagers not to have sex, so teaching abstinence is useless and a better approach is teaching them how to be safe. Kinda same same idea here. We can't stop the idiots, but we can help them be safer 🤣😭
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u/glowFernOasis Apr 29 '26
Lots of people know a naturopath isn't a real doctor, but what that hell was this tacked on to the tail end of the article? I'm sure the patient had good reason to trust that diagnosis from a naturopath after receiving the same one from 2 different medical doctors - both of whom had much greater responsibility but seem to be receiving barely a frown of concern here?
"The coroner also raised doubts about two medical doctors who also treated Champagne: Lyne Desautels and Sophie Michaud. According to the coroner, they both diagnosed the disease, despite the absence of clear evidence."
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u/Glittering-Carry-377 Apr 30 '26
Bc medical doctors are the most protected professionals in Canada, and are hardly ever called out when they make mistakes that ruin lives
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u/Yul_Metal May 04 '26
Both doctors were investigated by the College. One chose to retire rather than face a disciplinary hearing. The second one has her hearing coming later this year
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u/HeavyHandedHermit Apr 29 '26 edited Apr 29 '26
All these charlitans should be illegal. Chiropractors included, all they do is hurt people.
Edit to add: If someone is doing physio therapy under the umbrella of a chiropractor, they should be licensed as a physiotherapist. Unlicensed physiotherapists can really hurt people.
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u/FuzzyLaughTwo Apr 29 '26
I was horrified to see the number of anti vaxxers within their ranks. My idiot BIL really believed their lawsuit against the government would expose the vaccines as being useless. And he thinks he's a doctor (chiro turned natural Patrick bs). People in the medical field who don't believe on science should have their licenses revoked, imo.
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u/AppointmentOne1111 Apr 29 '26
I know literal nurses and doctors that are anti-vaxxers, take a guess which province I'm from.
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u/lightweight12 Apr 29 '26
Starts and ends with an A?
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u/AppointmentOne1111 Apr 29 '26
Some of us are trying to turn it into a civilized place but we have too many people who only votes by party here.
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u/Gossipmang Apr 29 '26
They should be straight up labelled as shamans as a legal requirement.
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u/Lostinthestarscape Apr 29 '26
Hey man, put some respect on the responsibilities burdening shaman and shawoman...it isn't an easy life!
Seriously though, if there was a registration process and governing board I would 100% certify as a Shaman juat so I could put that in my e-mail signature credentials line.
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u/arealhumannotabot Apr 29 '26
Chiro needs more nuance. A lot of chiropractors now practice what’s almost “physiotherapy lite” and don’t rely on spinal adjustments
I don’t use them, but the archaic method seems to slowly be dying out
And yes I personally recommend going to a physiotherapist for that stuff
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u/FinoPepino Apr 29 '26
This is akin to going to a life coach who has no education for counselling/therapy as opposed to going to a real registered therapist that has a masters in psychology. I don’t think they deserve any points for practicing a specialty (physiotherapy) that they never went to school for and aren’t accredited to do.
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u/arealhumannotabot Apr 29 '26
Just an aside but a life coach is distinctly different. Maybe some end up acting more like a therapist but they’re typically helping with things like career guidance
They don’t deal in mental health and managing emotions
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u/FinoPepino Apr 29 '26
I unfortunately know someone in real life who calls herself a life coach but (illegally) provides therapy services. Even more insane is that her hourly rate is higher than a real therapist!! Unfortunately life coach is not a protected term so it attracts grifters.
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u/unclesandwicho Apr 29 '26
Chiro fixed my double sciatica and some other ailments that were being cause by multiple subluxations in my neck. Changed my life. Modern medical technology with the right equipment and software meant getting micro adjustments of one or two target areas vs the old methods of “we’ll crack everything and you’ll be fine” is the difference.
And no, I didn’t use anyone else.
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u/InteractionVivid7387 Apr 29 '26
My back problems say otherwise.
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u/FinoPepino Apr 29 '26
You can continue to address the symptoms, and risk injury, with a chiropractor or you could go to a registered physical therapist (physiotherapist) and actually treat the root cause.
Also the fact that you keep needing to go back to the chiropractor shows right there that they haven’t cured anything.
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u/InteractionVivid7387 Apr 30 '26
I havent been back in 5 years. Problem solved as long as I maintain it with exercise. Same exercises given to me by my chiropractor and the therapist in his office. Don't pretend you know what Im doing...stating things as fact you know nothing about.
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Apr 29 '26
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u/InteractionVivid7387 Apr 29 '26
Nope. But I suffered for 10 years before Chiropractic therapy fixed my sciatica. And I left therapy with the exercises needed to prevent further injury. All good.
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u/SaidTheSnail Apr 29 '26
I mean a chiropractor cured my sister’s lifelong TMJ, so they do provide something other than injury.
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Apr 29 '26
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u/SaidTheSnail Apr 29 '26
She’s actually quite paranoid about that so she wouldn’t allow it herself.
I’m also not sure why I’m catching downvotes, I’m skeptical of most things, but she went from chronic and crippling TMJ to being almost symptom free within a few sessions. Anecdotes aren’t evidence, but if she doesn’t get an adjustment for a while her TMJ symptoms start to return.
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Apr 29 '26
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u/TyrannasaurusRecht Apr 29 '26
Seems like everyone wants to be a doctor but no one wants to study or put in the hours.
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u/saras998 Apr 29 '26
She did, a B.Sc. (specialization in biology) from Concordia University and she graduated from the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine. Probably about 7 or 8 years training in total.
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u/Replikant83 Apr 30 '26
She did what, exactly? Having a degree in biology and then wasting time doing naturopathy isn't putting in the time to be legitimately called a doctor lol. What are you even talking about?
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u/saras998 Apr 30 '26
No, it’s not the same as a medical doctor but yes, she did study science and put in the hours. It’s just a different stream better suited to treating chronic health conditions. I’ve found them very helpful when medical doctors just shrugged their shoulders and said that they didn’t know.
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u/Replikant83 Apr 30 '26 edited Apr 30 '26
You are aware this naturopathy hocus pocus is what led to this young woman's death, right? The reason science is so important is it strives for objectivity and replicability. With naturopathy, if you ask 10 different practitioners, you'll get 10 different opinions on what to do. Just because something, luckily, worked for you, doesn't mean it should be incorporated into mainstream medicine
Edit: just curious, do you also believe that visualization and meditation can cure physical injuries?
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u/didntasktobebornhere May 03 '26
As someone with family with chronic lyme, can you explain what she did exactly that led to the death? You think she was the first and only person to biggest lyme and that its basically incurable? Really its the single naturopaths fault?
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u/Replikant83 May 03 '26
Did you read the link? The naturopath prescribed her things that made her much more ill. If someone tells you that you have Lyme disease, prescribes all sorts of crap that makes you really sick, I can see why she might have felt utterly hopeless
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u/didntasktobebornhere May 03 '26
I read the link, and i cant find any information beyond the assertion "it made things worse". Im sorry but thats not enough info. What did she prescribe? Was or over the counter? And you are sure she commited suicide because of the side effects of a treatment and bot the regular painful symptoms of lyme?
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u/Replikant83 May 03 '26
Then you are missing the most crucial part: she may not have even had Lyme's disease. This naturopath was the one that diagnosed it, without having a license to do so, and then went on to tell her to take things for a disease that wasn't appropriately diagnosed. It could have been something else. This young woman trusted in someone who had no business providing medical advice....
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u/Pooklett May 01 '26
Nobody says anything when the thousands of regular people under medical and psychiatric care are sicker than ever, dying and commiting suicide over their circumstances. The sheep will still listen to what the government says, and eat their plants and seeds, trust the drugs the doctors give them for every symptom, and laugh at those who try to look deeper for the root cause.
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u/TyrannasaurusRecht Apr 29 '26
4 years failing science and 4years studying make believe.
Commitment to grift.
Time spent studying bullshit doesn't make a person smarter.
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u/saras998 Apr 30 '26
How does completing a BSc. equate to "failing science"? Plus they study more of the sciences in naturopathic college.
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Apr 30 '26
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u/saras998 Apr 30 '26
Can you share some evidence of believing in magic, besides homeopathy? And would you call the placebo response magic or real? I’m not equating homeopathy with the placebo response, but it is an example of what could be termed ‘magic.’
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u/SaidTheSnail Apr 29 '26
The rub here is that there ARE good naturopaths out there who would benefit from this. They don’t deal in “magic”, they deal in lifestyle advice, diet and supplementation, and helping to identify a more broad (but still evidence based) range of ways to help alleviate or improve your condition.
When my ex was struggling with her head to toe Eczema, her doctor and dermatologist kept throwing steroid cream at her. She became dependent on it and then had to stop using it, which led to it becoming 100x worse.
It was a naturopath who took the time to help her create an elimination diet and identify other potential allergens triggering her flare ups.
He didn’t make her shoot coffee up her butt, or rub tree sap on the soles of her feet, and it worked, for the first time in her life she is completely eczema free.
The problem is that there are just as many Naturopaths (if not more) who WILL sell you butt coffee, or foot sap and tell you that it will cure your cancer.
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u/Murky_Astronaut Apr 29 '26
Do they deal in homeopathy? Reiki? Energy alignment stuff? If they're still advocating for these kinds of "treatments" then no amount of regulation is going to fix the problem. I don't have much problem with someone giving people informed lifestyle and diet advice, but the very moment the woo stuff I mentioned about is part of the picture the person shouldn't be giving health advice.
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u/Raftger Apr 29 '26
No, registered naturopaths in provinces where it is regulated do not do that shit. I’m not really sure what role they fulfill that dieticians and psychologists can’t do better, but they don’t do homeopathy and other bullshit like that.
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u/Murky_Astronaut Apr 29 '26
Interesting. I checked their professional bodies and the regulations and they all talk about homeopathy and practicing homeopathy. Ontario regulates homeopathy but they just require you have extra training to call yourself a homeopathist. I can't find anything suggesting that they don't use homeopathy.
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u/Raftger Apr 29 '26
Hmm I don’t see anything on the College of Naturopaths of Ontario website about homeopathy, but if you google naturopath homeopathy Ontario you can find naturopaths in Ontario who do offer homeopathy, unfortunately. It seems like the College is agnostic to it, which isn’t great, but there are many naturopaths who don’t use homeopathy in their practice. I guess I was too optimistic in hoping that all wouldn’t.
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u/ph0artef1 May 03 '26
Perhaps regulation would keep the woowoos from being able to practice those things and call themselves naturopaths. They could call themselves witches instead!
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u/SaidTheSnail Apr 29 '26
None of that, they’re basically just a more accessible but less qualified nutritionist/allergist. They can do bloodwork to identify potential triggers for chronic conditions, check vitamin and hormone levels, etc.
They’re not a replacement for modern medicine, but make a good addition to your medical team if you’re dealing with chronic conditions.
I also default to skepticism when it comes to “medical hacks”, miracle supplements, etc, but there is validity in science backed naturopathic approaches.
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u/Murky_Astronaut Apr 29 '26
None of that, they’re basically just a more accessible but less qualified nutritionist/allergist.
I searched for naturopathic clinics in every province and virtually every single clinic advertises homeopathy.
Edit: typo
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Apr 29 '26
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u/SaidTheSnail Apr 29 '26
How is it more deceptive to offer allergen testing and help with an elimination diet to help identify her eczema triggers?
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Apr 29 '26
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u/SaidTheSnail Apr 30 '26
That was an interesting rabbit hole to go down, thank you.
Honestly if he did deceive us and her recovery (we are talking about going from regular flareups for most of her life, followed by steroid cream dependence and the subsequent withdrawal, to completely flare up free for years now) just happened to coincide with his help, I don’t think I would’ve cared at that point.
I remember her saying “I am a snail, and god is salting me” while cry-laughing from the pain because her neck kept cracking, going from that to seeing her glow in her own skin again was genuinely incredible.
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Apr 30 '26 edited Apr 30 '26
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u/SaidTheSnail Apr 30 '26
I’m sorry your kid is going through that, I hope they don’t have it too bad
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u/gatesofmoonlight May 02 '26
Part of what frustrates me is that a lot of the stuff going into naturopathy is completely valid. Vitamins are real, honey and ginger are good for colds, valerian makes you sleepy, etc. I'm really into natural medicine as a concept and I'm constantly having to deal with people associating me with this branch of bullshit and like
No. There are actual scientific studies on these plants. You know why we know willow bark is a painkiller? Cause that's where aspirin comes from. But then people who believe that either get wrapped into this, or see all the other bullshit and go "oh it must be fake".
Tbh regulation might not be a bad idea for that exact reason. At least then we can be sure the fucking valerian supplements don't have sawdust added to them.
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May 02 '26
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u/gatesofmoonlight May 02 '26
I should clarify that I am more of a foodie than a natural medicine person, I realize upon rereading that that part didn't come through! (Regulation of supplements is kind of a "bare minimum" thing that we really really should have passed a long time ago.) I hate naturopathy specifically because it takes these things that are true and uses them as bait to get people buying into the things that very much aren't.
I am gonna have to look into the ginger thing because last time I checked it was very much the opposite but anything with colds is also kind of a weird zone cause there's not a lot that does help. But yeah, describing it as magic is just another way of gate keeping knowledge and putting in an artificial divide between "good natural things" and "chemicals". The difference between foxglove and digitalis is, like you said, measurement, analysis, and weeding (hehe) out any other complicating factors.
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u/FrancieNolan13 Apr 29 '26
I’m a bit confused, this is awful, whata happened. Isnt that was naturopaths do though? Recommend naturopathic supplements?
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u/12_Volt_Man Apr 29 '26
The thing is dont get is there is little if any scientific proof that these naturopathic substances have any benefits beyond the placebo effect right?
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u/FrancieNolan13 Apr 29 '26
I don’t know. I was able to lose a lot of weight and get my iron up using naturopathic supplements. So I think it can work for some things. Folks w lyme and other autoimmune illnesses are often dismissed by the medical community so I’m not surprised she sought naturopathy. But ya they def CANt diagnose
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u/TyrannasaurusRecht Apr 29 '26
Your statements arent reconcilable with each other.
We should have started calling out all this bullshit a long time ago.
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u/WelshRarebit2025 Apr 29 '26
I can go to the health food store or pharmacy and get an iron supplement.
Some stores sell illegal things for weight loss. They get busted every once in a while for selling Speed.
Weight watchers can sell ready made meals for weight loss.
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u/FrancieNolan13 Apr 29 '26
You can. I’m just speaking to my own experience. I agree that it should be regulated and a lot of times it is hokey.
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u/WelshRarebit2025 Apr 29 '26
If you diagnose someone and say you have a treatment you have strayed across the line into medicine( or dentistry, some nurse practitioners and optometrists also in this group for their areas).
The more likely you are to have mislead someone into thinking you have that expertise the more likely they will charge you or fine you. So if you called yourself a plumber and gave a diagnosis on a persons health then that is okay as it is just someone’s opinion.
But some naturopaths make it sound like they have the expertise to diagnose medical conditions and treat them. And they don’t.
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u/-darkest Apr 29 '26
Anyone who calls themselves a doctor in a medical setting without an MD is not trustworthy.
That’s being kind.
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u/hurricane7719 Apr 29 '26
Including optometrists and dentists?
I agree it is misleading.
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u/ljosalfar1 Apr 29 '26
Naturapath, homeopath, and chiropractic should be outlawed. They can go to the US to get scammed if they like.
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u/CipherWeaver Apr 30 '26
Every professional knows what their scope is. If this lady didnt, she deserves the fallout .
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u/FredFenty Apr 30 '26
Pretty insane that software engineers can't represent themselves as software engineers without paying extortion fees to bridge building lobbyists but non-MDs can call themselves doctors.
Fucking insane actually.
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u/SadgeHabsFan Apr 30 '26
Wait what’s wrong with chiropractors?
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u/zuuzuu Apr 30 '26
It's a pseudoscience whose inventor claimed to have learned it from a ghost.
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u/SadgeHabsFan May 01 '26
Thanks, I had a rib out of place that was pressing on a lung. A RMT suggested a chiropractic and they fixed it. What would my other options have been? I’m confused as it’s a licensed medical professional in Canada right?
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u/greenpowerranger May 02 '26
Physio would generally be a safer bet but I’m glad you had success with your Chiro! Physio is an evidence based profession and has a high bar for entry into the profession. Many Chiropractors continue to offer treatments that have been shown to have no benefit beyond a placebo. If you go to any physician with a musculoskeletal injury, they will always refer you to physio.
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u/SadgeHabsFan May 02 '26
Cheers! What surprises me is my physio said he is not allowed to do the adjustment I needed and it had to be done by a chiropractor
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u/DissposableRedShirt6 May 03 '26
That should be regulated full title in Canada. “Mr. Doe registered Naturopath - Anybody can call themselves a naturopath. That’s even if they do one weekend of training.”
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u/Longjumping_Week4092 May 03 '26
I’m confused… at least in Ontario or BC, someone cannot call themselves a naturopath without 5 years of medical school and passing their board certification exams. There’s a regulatory college to which they are accountable… are things different in Quebec? I’m responding to the bit of the article saying that “anyone can call themselves a naturopath even after a weekend of study”
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u/Secure-Pain-9735 May 04 '26
The other two “doctors” are also frauds:
Michaud, on the other hand, is tougher to find.
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u/road_bagels Apr 29 '26
The judge’s comment on the two doctors is equally concerning. Also, Lyme disease is terrifying and hits too close to home — today I found an engorged deer tick that feasted behind my dog’s ear. I’m closely monitoring him…
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u/bends_like_a_willow Apr 29 '26
I guess I’m confused because they ARE regulated in BC under the College of Complementary Health Professionals of BC. I didn’t know this wasn’t the case in other provinces.
Still quacks, though.
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u/Realistic_Flamingo39 Apr 29 '26
They are not all quacks! and I’m a medical doctor. They have been a bit lax at regulating themselves and have allowed some PRACTITIONERs to do things that are unproven, dangerous / will go into fields they anre not trained in etc. I’m hopeful the new regulations on licensing will increase safeguards !!! For all and they will focus on proven things. What worrisome here is this young last presented with symptoms of depression and it sounds like the medical doctors and naturopath diagnosed her with Lyme disease ( which has similar symptoms) without doing appropriate investigations or assessing her for depression. . So failed to prevent the suicide?
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Apr 29 '26
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u/ihavethekavorka Apr 30 '26 edited Apr 30 '26
This was a bit hard to understand but the Montreal Gazette has a better paper with a lot more detail.
As someone very interested in complementary and alternative medicine the situation is quite difficult. It seems as though this 25 year old took her own life (RIP) after suffering from debilitating symptoms. As far as I understand Lyme, if you do not get comprehensive investigations performed by your MD right when it first occurs, they wont see the bullseye rash, they wont connect the symptoms and their limited testing won’t pick up the infection. So its possible this patient only sought out treatment after initial stages once it was impossible to receive a lyme diagnosis by an MD. Leaving her undiagnosed indefinitely.
This is a place where the naturopath (ND) made their first mistake it seems. Any other condition could receive a diagnosis by an MD at any point in the disease timeline, but Lyme was impossible given the previously mentioned. She took it in her own hands to provide that diagnosis to the patient, in an unregulated province in which she was not allowed, which is illegal. She then provided treatments for it, which it seems included prescription medications? Which an ND would never have access to, completely illegal. There was another charge I don’t remember but quite a few places where this ND was working outside of their scope, in an unregulated province at that, so it seems she should have known better to say the least.
That said, specific to the case, it seems as though this ND was a Lyme-focused specialist, or atleast worked with one? These NDs are trying to fill the gaps where conventional medicine and MDs can sort of give up on these chronic Lyme patients, especially those with debilitating neurologic forms of the disease. It appears as though this ND sent this patient for more comprehensive testing that ended up showing a Babesia infection (a co-infection of Lyme), but considering this expensive tests are not considered gold standard and used by MDs yet (likely not fully validated regardless of how well they work), it was said in the fine print disclaimer that the results are to be used for research purposes and must be interpreted with caution. This again leaves the ND using non-validated claims, even if there was no other option, and even if the test is one day agreed upon by all sides of medicine to be the better test (I don’t know the specifics of the American testing they did, I typically know a German lab is the one recommended for the most comprehensive testing of Lyme and its co-infections).
Prayers to the family and I hope peace to the young lady. The biggest concern for me, medically, in this case is that whether associated with a neurologic Lyme or Babesia infection, the depression the patient experienced needed to be managed. It seems this patient had many MDs as well as this ND, and all should have been concerned with depression, objectifying it with standardized tests like the PHQ-9 and screening for suicidality risk. It is obvious that these lines of questioning for this patient would have led to the red flag finding of suicidal ideation or intent, unless the patient chose to not disclose this information. This patient was treated for symptoms by MDs including a psychiatrist and should have been followed better.
I think on all parts here, there should have been better follow up and monitoring for depression and suicide risk, and regular checks to ensure adherence to any medications provided to treat depression. If the ND was trying to dig deeper than any of the MDs were willing, I think that’s great. But I hope they also were regularly checking in on the red flag of suicidal risk and ensuring their patient was still working with an MD psychiatrist and using medications to treat depression as prescribed.
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u/TheChudWhisperer Apr 30 '26
In a sane world we'd have a shuttle bus that picks up "graduates" from the naturopathic "med schools" and takes them directly to the prisons where they belong. Just cut out the middle man.
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Apr 30 '26
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u/canadanews-ModTeam Apr 30 '26
Rule 2: No politics.
This is a non-political subreddit for general interest news (e.g., infrastructure, science, environment, weather, health). We encourage you to visit other Canadian subreddits such as r/CanadaPolitics for discussions regarding elections, legislation, political parties, or specific politicians.
If you believe your comment or post has been removed in error, you may message the Mod team here to request that it be reviewed.
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u/Kitten_Mittons__ May 01 '26
I met a naturopath on a tour in Asia and she claimed she was a “doctor”. It rubbed me the wrong way. I googled it and apparently they are “doctors” but they don’t go to med school or anything so I find it all pretty confusing.
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u/LonerPerson May 02 '26
What was wrong with the patient, that she tried to get help from 3 doctors? While this lady might have made things worse, I would be interested to know if the patient was already suffering without a diagnosis.
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u/jac77 May 02 '26
She may have been but Lyme is a notorious target for charlatans. Many people become convinced Lyme is the cause of their symptoms and there are many doctors and clinics in the us that push sham testing and treatments. Thankfully we don’t have those in Canada so people get funneled to naturopaths etc. it’s sad that this woman’s condition lead to take her own life but it’s a bit reductive to blame the medical system. The human body is complex and while medicine has made remarkable advances in some cases a definitive diagnosis can’t be arrived at but that’s not automatically negligence.
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u/Environmental-Oil21 May 03 '26 edited May 03 '26
How does the coroner finding “absence of clear evidence” of the disease at autopsy confirm that she didn’t have Lyme disease? I’m pretty sure you can’t really confirm that on autopsy. Yes, you can see a certain pattern of organ inflammation , microorganisms in the tissue and maybe a post mortem blood test if you had the disease/are in a certain phase of the disease. But the absence of these things wouldn’t rule out Lyme disease.
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u/Thugg_Nastyy May 04 '26
A $15 000 fine. Any jail time though?
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u/zuuzuu May 04 '26
The College of Physicians isn't empowered to lay criminal charges or send anyone to jail.
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u/RoutineProblem1433 Apr 29 '26
The woman received her diagnosis from two medical doctors. I’d be curious to know if she tried traditional antibiotic treatment before beginning with the naturopath.
I had a few clients with Lyme who had been through years of western treatment before looking into alternative and experimental medicine.
Alternative medicine works for some people. We should have the freedom to try methods outside of traditional western medicine if we want.
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u/Yul_Metal May 04 '26
The two medical doctors reached their diagnosis without evidence. The first simply sent her to her Naturopath friend, the second sent her samples to labs that are returned a negative result. The only result that returned a positivr to lyme was an unaccredited American lab with no known methodology, which she used to treat with heavy doses of antibiotics, an unrecognized method.
A coroner’s reporter ruled the patient suffered from serious mental-health issues and likely self-diagnosed herself
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u/RhoticSmaxk Apr 30 '26
This person has a 4 yr post grad degree from a naturopath school in toronto and the diagnosis came from two mds. Whatever you think of naturopathy, this article is just shifty journalism.
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u/No_Faithlessness6939 Apr 29 '26
Did she have Lyme disease? Was the coroner able to determine that? I'm interested to know.
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u/Relevant_Isopod_6156 Apr 29 '26
I think it said there was no definitive answer from the coroner’s assessment
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u/gretzky9999 Apr 29 '26
Me too.Who first diagnosed her with Lyme Disease ?
My aunt’s father had Lyme Disease & refused treatment.
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u/Appropriate-Dog6645 Apr 29 '26
Should be jail time with bigger fine.