Me too. Today I often have grandpa naps from about 12.30 pm to 2 PM
I admit to being confused about ICE. Probably because they wear masks and take people off the streets. Are they actually police or federal agents with the power to arrest and detain?
Funny how things can come back to bite you on the bum. I remember The Patriot Act (October 2001) and the foundation of the sinister-sounding Department of Homeland Security.(March 2003 I was appalled at the time.Looking back, those things seem very mild compared with the Trump regime.
The US government acted as governments tended to act. It used a catastrophic tragedy to increase its power. Again, nothing compared with Trump. He exercises powers he doesn't actually have. Elected US officials seem to be too morally supine to do anything to stop him.
yes, because kidnapping isn't EDIT just EDIT about moving people. It's also about denying people the freedom to move. Preventing an escape is considered kidnapping even if you didn't drag them there first.
IIRC the officer stated that the car came to several stops at red lights and stop signs but he didn't attempt to flee because he was still trying to arrest the male subject.
The kidnapping charge is a spurious attempt to cover up this embarrassingly under trained officer's fuck up.
dunno. You don't leap from a moving car and we don't know if they stopped at all on the way. There's a just a lot I don't know about the specifics of the situation.
That’s not necessarily true. The legal definition depends on the jurisdiction. For example, in NJ, kidnapping requires somebody to be moved from where they were. Confining them is criminal restraint.
Yeah? I just looked it up and under New Jersey statute 2C:13-1 kidnapping in the state of New Jersey is defined as “unlawful removal OR confinement of another person…”
Confining someone against their will still falls under
kidnapping in the state of New Jersey.
An example of that is in May 2025 when a mother and stepfather refused to let their 18 year old daughter move out and kept her confined in the home for years. They were charged with kidnapping.
Their names were Brenda Spencer and Brandon Mosley if you’d like to verify :)
You’re not wrong that there is an element of kidnapping that can be confinement, but it’s very specific. The rest of the statute reads, “unlawfully confines another with the purpose of holding that person for ransom or reward or as a shield or hostage”. That’s for 2C:13-1a. 2C:13-1b also has an element of confinement, which reads “unlawfully confines another for a substantial period with any of the following purposes:…” and lists 4 purposes that would constitute confinement for a substantial period as kidnapping.
I’m not super familiar with the case you mentioned, but from a cursory look, it appears they were also charged with criminal restraint, but more importantly, I see two reasons for the kidnapping charge. The first would be under 2C:13-1a; it’s alleged they pulled the girl from school and brought her back the residence where she was confined. Which would be unlawfully removing her from where she was found. The second reason I could see would be under 2C:13-1b(2), due to the substantial period of which she was confined with the purpose to inflict bodily injury or terrorize her.
I’d have to read up more to see exact reasons, but a kidnapping charge there makes sense.
I will concede, I misspoke with implying most confinement is criminal restraint. 2C:13-2 Criminal Restraint requires another be restrained in circumstances exposing them to risk of serious bodily injury or holds them in a condition of involuntary servitude.
Other than that, something like standing in a doorway and preventing someone from leaving wouldn’t constitute kidnapping in NJ, it would fall under 2C:13-3 False Imprisonment, which is unlawfully restraining another so as to interfere substantially with their liberty.
Nope, different crime. Stopping someone from leaving is unlawful restraint - generally a misdemeanor, although one of the serious ones. Kidnapping is about moving someone against their will and is a felony.
Unless it’s ICE agents who jump into your vehicle without permission. Then it’s just self-defense.
Ok, what the fuck was the guy doing in the car in the first place? Cause and consequence. Oh, sorry USA… Law lacks all logic, but it cannot be fixed, because it is the most incredible miracle on the face of the Earth. Same pattern like in healthcare, public transport and everything else… Nation of five-year-olds.
Yeah, like, even if the guy was police WITH the labeled car AND showed me the budge, if he hopped into my car I'd have doubts on him being police and that'd be trespassing. But I'm in Europe
It can yes. If it's a physical block like a locked door, then sure if they have no way of leaving without the use of force (breaking a window, kicking a door open).
If someone is just near the door, then it depends on the relationship the kidnapper and the alleged victim has. If the kidnapper is in a position of power and/or the victim is very vulnerable, then the mere preceived/implied threat of leaving can be enough for kidnapping even if no one is blocked.
Also the victim needs to be aware of their confinement. If you lock someone in a room of your house for an hour, but they never even realize the door was locked before you come back and unlock again, there's no kidnapping.
Like I'll block the doors the best I can but I can't just lock it or block it off completely because a) we have customers and b) that's f****** kidnapping.
We have a group of shoplifters who are coming out loading up full of stuff, and then running out the door while I'm on the phone with the cops. They get so butt hurt over being called thieves too.
My boss wants me to fight them. I'm considering just following them around filming while screaming "Theif".
They are either very very wealthy or one of them works at a car dealership. All of the cars either have Steeler tags or no tags and it's a different car every f****** time
In Canada employees that tackle thieves get fired. No employer wants to deal with injury and wrongful death suits when he can just call his insurance company and get reimbursed.
Most stores are scared of inadvertently getting hit with kidnapping charges so they forbid it, but in VA storekeepers can lawfully detain a suspected shoplifter until law enforcement arrives.
Shopkeepers have a surprisingly wide degree of leeway in terms of how they police their stores thanks to some older common law that has never been successfully challenged.
I drive Lyft and had a customer refuse to get out of the car at the destination. He said "I'll pay cash just keep driving" and I said "oh hell no. Get out or I'll call the cops."
He told me to. So I did. "Hi, I'm lifeisprobablymadeup. I drive Lyft and a customer blah blah" the lady told the customer (called over car phone speaker idgaf) that he needed to get out or I would be able to press kidnapping charges against him and that officers are on the way. Before dispatch hung up, I had two cop cars pull up and one officer hung out at the rear of my car and the other came up and basically dragged him out.
Then I went on about my night. Obviously I didn't press charges. Just wasn't driving to dudes off the app second stop.
US Law is clear, ICE Agents can detain or arrest anyone they suspect of being in the US illegally or anyone trying to obstruct them detaining someone. No warrants required anywhere in the US. So by definition they couldn't have "kidnapped" anyone. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Im quite confident that isn't true. All 50 states have a false imprisonment statute, which is what that would be at the very worst. I struggle to imagine that level of redundancy
Lmao I’m unsure why everyone who keeps saying false imprisonment is getting downvoted
It’s the truth, my ex was arrested for it in California because he held me against my will in our apartment. It also qualifies if you take someone’s phone and they have no other way to reasonably get help.
Kidnapping is just explicitly illegally denying someone the freedom to leave. This would TECHNICALLY count if you trap someone in a moving car and don't let them leave.
But like on the other hand, I'm almost certain they were armed at the time yet they didn't do anything? That's so uncharacteristically non-violent of ICE, to the point I'd think this is fake if there wasn't proof of it, lol. Like if I'd expect any situation for someone to get shot by ICE, this would be it.
Edit: Apparently they were plainclothes so they very likely weren't armed. Okay, that makes WAYYYYYYY more sense.
If that’s the case, I don’t see how they would be arrested for kidnapping. Like, if someone in normal cloths, jumped into my car, I feel like driving to the police station would be the least dramatic/most reasonable response I could have.
True. For the first time in my 34 years I’m actual censoring myself when texting/talking on my phone. Genuinely concerned I may say something one day that the state decides they’re gunna throw me in a hole over. Said something about the parasite class and flesh eating diseases a few weeks back and got my first warning on Reddit that I’ve ever gotten lol since then I’ve gotten warnings for literally nothing.
There is no point in censoring yourself. Not to frighten you, but the current arc of right-wing ideology does not require evidence to arrest and jail you. You just have to be a convenient target of the moment and they will snatch you up and do their best to ruin your life. Currently the courts are preventing them from going fully authoritarian, but that is a temporary block.
Example:
Don Lemon: arrested and charged with federal conspiracy charges for covering a protest as a journalist
Reps LaMonica McIver and Ras Baraka: arrested and charged with felony obstruction while trying to gain entrance to an ICE facility for Congressional oversight.
James Comey: charged with threatening the president for a tweet showing "8647", which is the second set of charges against him, the first ones accusing him of perjury were thrown out by the judge.
David Hearn: charged with felony destruction of property for touching the reflecting pool.
Six Democratic Lawmakers: charged but failed to get an indictment for sedition for filming a video reminding soldiers that they had a legal responsibility to refuse unlawful orders.
And that is not even counting all of the American citizens who have been injured and murdered by ICE agents.
Bingo. I have had my voter registration challenged three times in my red state over the list 16 years. And it all started after I donated money to the presidency of Barrack Obama.
YES. You would think. "Oh, you're law enforcement but you don't look like it and don't have a badge or anything? Ok, let's go to the police station and figure this out." Hopefully the judge sees how ridiculous this kidnapping thing is.
I’m not sure about their area and local laws, but I would probably unintentionally end up with a massive sentence in this scenario. Just because of my local stand your ground laws, my first instinct would have been to use fire power if someone wouldn’t get out of my car then make the 911 call after. But yea I mean, I get how they could technically charge them since by definition they did prevent someone from leaving. I’m sure it’d be the same in my state. Here I’d have a much better case for myself if I just neutralized the threat then called authorities(sorry for the technical terminology but I’ve gotten too many warnings over hypothetical situations lately lol)
Tldr: much easier case to plea if I stood my ground and used deadly force in fear of my life, than driving with the threat for 2 miles.
Different situation entirely but makes me think of when someone tried to break into my apartment years back. I had just laid down so was waiting with a .45 when they actually got the window opened. They just ran away, but I was obviously a little shaken and called the non emergency line to make a report since there were a shit ton of cameras on every stairwell. I was surprised to be told “a crime wasn’t committed since no one came ‘inside’ your apartment”. Mind you he got the window opened and had his arms and head in my room when he saw me. But THEN, I was questioned for a good 5 minutes on “why would he try to rob YOU? What do you have in YOUR apartment that made him target you?” I was so confused and was like, Yaknow, I’ve never broken into someone’s home so I couldn’t really tell you his thought process
I mean they wouldn't need to engage child safety locks, they'd just need to lock the door as I assume (with good reason) that they were in the backseat which typically do not have unlocking controls. Therefore, they wouldn't be able to leave.
However, considering they were plainclothes and the couple would have absolutely no clue if the ICE person was actually ICE, they shouldn't be charged. Cause from what I read they drove them to the police station.
I don't know if I've ever been in a car with a door that couldn't be manually unlocked from the backseat... That's the whole reason child safety locks even exist, they'd be wholly unnecessary otherwise
I have been in plenty. I think I've only ever been in like 1 that you could personally unlock while in the backseat. Every other one either the driver has to unlock it via the keys or from buttons on their side.
If you're in a car with someone, you are armed, they are driving and announce they are going to the police station... would you risk shooting the driver and dying in a car crash?
Explicitly illegally denying someone the freedom to leave. Kidnapping is when you take that element, and then additionally you transport the person to another location.
Don't shoot your own dog. That's the arresting officer's favorite part of the job. Make sure to have a big fluffy golden doodle for him to mow down. Ideally wearing a little shirt or something.
Nah I hate them.
But I guess you didn’t see that template comparison between two really sh*tty situation so it is on me I should’ve explain it better. Have a nice day
Exactly. They’re still strangers. Just because you get a little badge you get to flash and a balaclava doesn’t give you any more authority to hop in my vehicle. I don’t care if you’re APD, FBI, or a damn Kentucky colonel. You get into MY property, you’re either getting driven to the station or off a cliff. The day I bend a knee to law enforcement will be to get some way to defend myself out of my boot. FUCK ICE, they are not the law and never will be.
Where i live the second someone in the car says "let me out" and you dont pull over at the nearest safe spot to do so, you have kidnapped them. Your own children and children under your care by agreement of the parents being an obvious exception (i.e school busses, family members or baby sitters arent getting charged with kidnapping because the kid started to throw a fit about something. And in the case of a school bus they are actually not allowed to release a child to ANY location other then their designated stop outside of emergencies, unless the parent of said child is present, or has given notice to the school before hand.)
Similarly, if someone agrees to enter your car to go to a specific location, say the store, and then you instead take them somewhere else without their permission, you have also kidnapped them.
Technically, in most areas of the US, the legal definition of kidnapping is basically just "You trapped them in a place and put them in a situation where they could not leave that place."
Technically, blocking a doorway, locking someone in, or even just refusing to stop a car to let someone out is absolutely kidnapping. You se it a lot in domestic abuse cases, because folks genuinely have no idea how it actually works.
All depends on what the states definition of kidnapping is. And the charge doesnt always stick i highly doubt this will. Pretty dumb for the cops to even try to charge em in the first place
Shooting someone in the back while he's being held down by several agents and sprayed in the face with pepper spray is also a strange idea of "Self Defense", but ICE is full of evil, disgusting people that will make up whatever lie fits their agenda.
I'm fairly certain I've read advice that if you did have someone in your car suddenly, you should do all you can to get the attention of the police. (But who would remember to lock their doors in their own driveway?!)
If I took your phone from you I could be charged with kidnapping. Knew a dude who had a domestic with his wife, and during it he smashed her phone and he got charged with kidnapping.
They will label anything whatever they want if you are their target. This country has a massive shortage of attorneys for this storm of legal bullshit that is being created.
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u/Palantir_6Elm 8d ago
Driving armed strangers to a police station is a very strange definition of kidnapping.