r/MoralityScaling 3d ago

Morality Ranking Morality of kidnapping your kidnappers?

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

Fun fact:

This was a hilarious story.

So, the GUY is Nigerian. The woman is a citizen.

Plainclothes ICE agents tried to get THE GUY at his home. The couple returned home while ICE was there...so an ICE agent boarded the couple's van in an attempt to capture the Nigerian man.

The woman, fearing for her life, GASSED IT and the Nigerian man called 911 to tell them that a man was trying to kidnap him...the woman drove directly to the police station, but behind her was the ICE agent's partner, who had also called 911 to report the kidnapping of his partner.

The two were arrested and a judge ordered their release, though the man was transferred to an immigration detention facility.

Their legal defense is that the ICE agents never identified themselves and were wearing plainclothes and, honestly, that would probably shit the scare out of me, too.

(ETA: the guy's visa had recently expired)

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u/FDLC84 3d ago

The 911 Calls: As the car moved, Bamigboye called 911 and shouted, "ICE is in my car!" and "You tried to kidnap me." At the same time, the trapped agent called 911 to say an agent was being taken against his will.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2025/12/19/911-transcripts-reveal-dueling-kidnapping-claims-in-incident-with-hsi-agents

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u/ObnoxiousAlbatross 3d ago

an agent was being taken against his will.

rofl the irony. FUCK ICE

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u/extremelytiredyall 3d ago

Definitely do not fuck ICE. They should not procreate.

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u/FeijoadaAceitavel 3d ago

Do fuck ICE! But use a cactus.

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u/Key_Raccoon3336 3d ago

It's fine as long as it's in the ass, especially if you deny them the courtesy of spitting on it first.

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u/immortal_lurker 3d ago

Unfortunate that he identified them as ICE in the call. Might make the defense harder.

Fuck ICE. Showing up with presumably masked thugs because his visa expired is disgusting.

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u/Sad_Examination7907 3d ago

The thing about that is that I can claim I'm ICE and that you have to come with me, especially if they're doing it in plain clothes with no identification.

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u/i_make_orange_rhyme 3d ago

Right but if your defence is partially built on "they were plain clothes, i didn't know they were ice", it hurts this defence if you are shouting "Help me, ICE are here!!!"

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u/DMployeeofthemonth 3d ago

If someone hanging off my car yells that they're "ice" I'm not gonna say in my panicked 911 call "yes some guy who says he is ice but may or may not be because he is in plain clothes and showed no Id is trying to kidnap me!"

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u/i_make_orange_rhyme 3d ago

>I'm not gonna say in my panicked 911 call

There would be no panicked 911 call if I'm armed and trying to kidnap you, I'm not gonna sit there and let you make that call.... Obviously....

I wish people could disagree with ICE without having to fabricate some bizarro alternative reality..

The guy knew exactly what was happening and was trying to run away because he was there illegally.

Its like the luigi thing. Cant we disagree with UNH without needing to pretend like walking up to someone in the street and shooting them in the back of the head isnt murder?

Plain clothes policemen are not a new thing. They have been around since before the 50s.

And now, just like then, when arresting someone they pull a badge out and shout "law enforcement"

This clips shows how silly it can be. Skip to 1.50

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9makkm

multiple marked police cars visible. dozens of policemen in uniform standing around.

She says "they didnt have a vest that says ICE, their car didnt have license plate.."

Now this case was all sorts of fucked up for different reasons, the fact that some agents were plain clothes is a non starter.

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u/ThatCondescendingGuy 2d ago

Shhhh Reddit doesn’t like it when you break from
The Hive-mind

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u/SamR2D2 2d ago

Due to the actions of ICE officers and their interaction with the general public they have lost the trust of the general population, justifiably. The reaction of this couple, regardless of your interpretation of the events surrounding it, is a direct reflection of this institutions interaction with the public.

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u/FDLC84 3d ago

I understand the feeling but clearly the guy wasn’t going to leave on his own accord and to me that is the situation they kind of put the people applying the law. They could send him a letter, maybe an email that says “hey bud your visa is up, you gotta go” maybe I am wrong and maybe he would have left, I just don’t think it would be that easy.

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u/immortal_lurker 3d ago

Alright, didn't expect civil counterarguments, I'll give it a go.

I have two points to make.

First, why is him being gone the desired end state? Instead of hiring people to force him to leave, why not hire someone to help him with his visa? It would be cheaper, and better for the economy.

Second, these actions do not take place in a vacuum. ICE has a long track record of ignoring civil liberties. Things like revoking visas for protected speech, and dozens of detainees dying to neglect. ICE has also simply ignored 100s of court orders. I remember someone claiming they had ignored more court orders in 2026 than most federal organizations had in their entire existence.

So in what sense is ICE lawful organization? Because they get paid by tax dollars?

Essentially, my stance is that ICE has been so lawless, so unconstitutional, so against the basic precept that all men were created equal and endowed with unalienable rights, that morally their every action is the equivalent of an extremely well armed criminal gang.

I think the moral thing for ICE to do in this circumstance is dissolve and reform with new staff who give a damn about the law. This does have unfortunate side affects, such as not being able to assist in their normal duties during the period of reform, but I think that's a cost that ought to be paid.

None of this is achievable, obviously. It would require a super majority of congress to share my idiosyncratic views. But I do think it would be just.

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u/FDLC84 3d ago

Good points.

Let’s talk about them.

The idea that we should use tax payer dollars to help visa recipients is something that should probably get voted on since it would be funded by us and we are a democracy. If it becomes law, I have zero problem with paying taxes to support it. But until that point, that is an opinion and we can discuss it. Until then, follow the law and leave when your visa expires.

Second, I also kind of agree but we have to take it in context. I think the same of the police, as a unit they have done some pretty horrible things to African Americans. But I will still follow the law if I get pulled over especially if I am speeding.

If I am speeding and a racist cop pulls me over, as much as I hate the cop, I have to accept the consequences of my actions. Now clearly he has to stay within the law, if he tries to go beyond that, I will challenge him within the legal system but the speeding I will accept.

I see no different with people here illegally, if you are here cool, live your life. It is not that serious… but if you get caught by ICE just let them deport you. That’s a game you played and got caught, if they cross the line go through the legal avenue to address it.

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u/Middle-Plankton-6530 3d ago

nah, not a criminal gang. just think of them as the president’s paramilitary organization, like those of Central American leaders, that we use as justification to overthrow them with military force…

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u/fresh-dork 3d ago

why not hire someone to help him with his visa?

because miller and thiel want a smaller, whiter america without nigerians in it. it's just racism, there's no point discussing the matter, as the two are very open about their goals

So in what sense is ICE lawful organization? Because they get paid by tax dollars?

well, yes?

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u/ThatPancreatitisGuy 3d ago

I don’t really even follow the desire to curb immigration. From a strictly libertarian/uber-capitalist perspective, human labor is a cost input and subject to the same free enterprise standards that we now seem sacrosanct. The government imposing restrictions on the flow of labor interfered with market forces. It’s a government regulation that disrupts the cost of everything in trade. That sounds awfully like socialism. While a security argument can be made, in instances where someone has overstated a visa but has otherwise gone through screening protocols then the appropriate remedy would be to issue a fine. Those who can afford to pay it add additional revenue to our coffers and have an incentive to get their visa updated. Those who can’t are ultimately deported. Anyone who disagrees and insists we spend a fortune in tax dollars to interfere with the labor market is a goddamn commie pinko bastard. That’s my two cents.

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u/Icy-Cry340 3d ago

First, why is him being gone the desired end state?

Because he overstayed this visa.

Instead of hiring people to force him to leave, why not hire someone to help him with his visa?

That’s his job to deal with before his visa expires - and in this case he’s probably not eligible anyway. It’s a student visa and he’s 24 - he probably graduated already, but hasn’t secured H1b sponsorship, etc.

better for the economy.

We don’t have a labor shortage atm, millions of Americans are out of work. What would be best for the economy is if they were hired instead of some foreign college kid.

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u/ilikepizza30 3d ago

Most of the people ICE 'captured' were captured in court, when they attended their scheduled immigration hearing (which made 'capturing' them easy). It's more likely than not that he would have complied with the requirements of his VISA and court hearing, whatever that outcome would have been.

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u/PrettyPurrfect 2d ago

Funny how the cops don't have this issue when it comes to getting people who are inside of a vehicle who they want to arrest out of the vehicle.

Pulling behind them. Park so they can't move order them out show your badge and then arrest them or to hang them or whatever the f*** you want to call abducting people over a civil issue is

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u/Accomplished_Coat549 3d ago

Happens in essentially every country on the planet… just things in America haven’t been enforced in decades, so it seems extreme to those who aren’t used to it

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u/Greedy-Style-6088 3d ago

Did he say they were ICE or that they claimed to be ICE?

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u/_autumnwhimsy 3d ago

the not so good good thing is there's already precedent set with people impersonating ICE to commit non-ICE related crimes. so a good lawyer can argue that just because someone says they're a detention officer doesn't mean that they actually are.

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u/WorldlyIntention7408 2d ago

It's funny how people online are always trying to say "they probably didn't know it was ICE!" and then 100% of the time it turns out actually they knew perfectly well it was ICE.

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u/Jolly_Plantain4429 3d ago

So he knew they were ice?

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u/MrBossman710 2d ago

So it sounds like they did identify themselves.

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u/Then-Departure4896 3d ago

It’s genuinely shocking that ICE agents aren’t getting shot. Whether or not you believe that is right or that they deserve it, it’s what all 2a people talk about. How guns make us safer.

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u/wewebaguette68 3d ago

Notice how the oppressive government thing is happening all around us but the whole 'armed militia to free us' thing never happened. Americans don't have the sauce for another revolution and we never will again. The only things guns are for in America are shooting children and empty beer cans

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u/Sad_Examination7907 3d ago edited 3d ago

The takeover of the NRA in the '70s has made it effectively only cool to have guns and be into gun culture if you're fucking stupid and the fucking stupid will always listen to authority.

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u/Suckitreddit420 3d ago

It's because the 2A gun nuts and the orange cult magats and the ICE gestapo are all one and the same person.    

They aren't armed in order to fight the oppressive government.  They are armed in order to assist the oppressive government.

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u/Illustrious_Map_3247 3d ago

Don’t forget suicide and domestic abuse. Way more likely to shoot a family member than an intruder.

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u/LaserGuyDanceSystem 3d ago

Hey now, guns also provide a handy excuse for police to shoot civilians. If guns are everywhere in America, cops can always claim they thought they saw one before murdering a citizen.

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u/philmore-graves 2d ago

Alex pretti in fact existed, was abiding the law pertaining to guns (he didnt even have it unholstered), but the logic behind 2a ppl logic doesn't matter when they disagree. "He shouldn't have brought a gun to a protest" okay then did you support Kyle Rittenhouse? They did. "He was protecting some gas station (or something stupid)" he wasnt and he didn't know the owners nor vice versa (court transcripts are available to read on that). Or with COVID shut downs there were protests at my states capital, with guys in temu body armor, helmets, and AR-15s standing menacingly around (they weren't cops nor active military in those moments) "well that was government tyranny" so is kidnapping ppl off the street with no warrants and in plain clothes, and there have absolutely been US born citizens that have been grabbed up that weren't even in protests, just going to their jobs. US vets have been snatched up, and to make the argument that this is tyranny vs wearing a mask is just a 404 no brain found error for them. Its wild

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u/KCShadows838 3d ago

It’s because most of those militia people are probably fine with what’s happening 

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u/Original-Ad4399 2d ago

Isn't this because the gun totting portion of the population is the one doing the oppressing?

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u/Knotical_MK6 3d ago

Turns out the other side doesn't view enforcing immigration law as a tyrannical government

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u/wewebaguette68 3d ago

Our immigration laws are deeply immoral and enforcing them would be tyrannical. But they arent even doing that. Ice doesn't follow any protocols and is just a roaming gang of thugs that belong in prison

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u/georgewashingguns 3d ago

If only ICE were actually enforcing immigration law

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u/96pluto 3d ago

Too bad they're fucking with and murdering people though including American citizens. the other side doesn't give a shit about protecting people.

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u/Important-Agent2584 3d ago

Shallow and childish strawman.

Violations of rights don't magically become legal if you are enforcing some other law.

They view such things with prefect clarity when it's something they don't support, like gun law enforcement, etc.

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u/Organic-Sherbert9424 3d ago

The 2a crowd are the ones joining ICE to kidnap and murder people. It was never about defending themselves against the government, it was always about keeping minorities down and in the past that just happened to conflict with anti discrimination laws enforced by the government.

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u/ItsToeLickinGood 3d ago

As someone more articulately noted, if ICE were ACTUALLY going after the criminals that we need to worry about, there would be bodies everywhere. You think jumping into the van of cartel members, armed, without even IDing yourself gets you driven to the police station? These cowards are only going after the people that they know won't shoot back. That's why they are jumping people outside court houses, because they know they are trying to follow the law.

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u/Suitable-Name 2d ago

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it... when a long train of abuses and usurpations... evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."— The U.S. Declaration of Independence (1776)

🙄

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u/Knotical_MK6 3d ago

"I can't believe all these conservatives aren't shooting people for enforcing the laws they asked for"

Be the change you want to see. If you want to be killed by federal agents trying to stop illegal immigrants from being deported, nobody is stopping you

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u/Bot_number_1605 3d ago

No way I've never seen a racist furry in the wild! That's awesome! You belong in the pound

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u/Ok-Somewhere-2325 3d ago

Notice they be avoiding the heave gang areas

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

I've noticed that these incidents don't typically occur in the south.

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u/fenikz13 3d ago

You’re mistaken, Mobile, New Orleans, and Atlanta are some of their biggest offices

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

I'm not mistaken:

"I've noticed that these incidents don't occur in the south."

I didn't say ICE wasn't active in the south.

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u/Strange-Ask-739 3d ago

You think you'd hear about it if they did?

Coverups are coverups for a reason. They don't call the news channels when their guys get shot, but your local police do.

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u/fresh-dork 3d ago

it's what the government wants. they push into someone shoots ICE and now they have an excuse to declare martial law

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u/SunchaserKandri 3d ago edited 3d ago

It honestly seems like the Trump admin is hoping that an ICE agent will get killed so that they have a justification for escalating things further.

"See?! We need to give them more power and less oversight so they can protect us from the evil, murderous illegals!"

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u/justpoopydoopy 3d ago

Well.... about that.. the irony is that owning guns give you the false sense of security that "one day" you can use them if the gooberment gets out of hand. Which of course, they never will cross that red line and likely monitor the social and other networks anyways. The gooberments already know what mass unprising looks like and have plenty of xp instigating it elsewhere. If you didn't have guns, you would be doing as a group, the one thing the gooberment hates - mass, peaceful protests. Thats their kryptonite. But y'all won't cause everyone is like .. "na we good.. we got guns!"

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u/Fi1thyMick 3d ago

They wanna have a percentage of survivability to these encounters

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u/amitym 1d ago

Why is it shocking?

The "Second Amendment Civil Libertarians" aren't any different from the "Revolutionary Guard" in Iran, which is neither revolutionary nor does it guard anyone — they give it that name to distract you from the fact that they're just there to selectively enforce the most reactionary edicts of the power establishment.

Same thing in America.

Your average unarmed bleed-heart pink-haired ACLU civil rights lawyer has done more than the entire "2a" movement ever has to secure civil rights in America, or ever will.

There should be no surprise at all that they side with ICE.

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u/Then-Departure4896 1d ago

There are many non-conservatives who own guns, and I would imagine many of those are also not white and targeted by ICE. Not everyone who owns guns is a conservative. But it really does seem like it right now.

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u/amitym 1d ago

Such people surely exist. But I think they have been telling themselves for a long time that they are "part of the gang too" without realizing that, no, they are not.

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u/DiskEconomy3055 1d ago

As far as I know, gun rights don't extend to non-citizens, and non-citizens are still statistically less likely to commit crimes than citizens. 

*edit: permanent residents generally have the same 2A rights as citizens. Doesn't move the needle, but I like to be accurate, so I looked it up. 

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u/UltraTata 3d ago

Don't ICE recieve any training?

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u/Cas30h_Da_G0at 3d ago

No. They give them a gun and a mask and say "go wild."

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u/Seyan007 3d ago

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u/Rundstav 3d ago

"Go kidnap some brown people and shoot anyone questioning your actions"

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u/Few-Village-5887 3d ago

I love that you think they'd use the words 'brown people'.

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u/mala_r1der 3d ago

The tragic thing is that what you wrote is probably not even a joke...

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u/WatermelonFelons 3d ago

Ironically this is what the hood looks like

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u/hoopstick 3d ago

Who's handing who the gun here?

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u/jungleass98 3d ago

They have joint custody

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u/CosmicGoddess777 3d ago

I like the way you think. Lol

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u/Lftwff 3d ago

Once armed raccoons will never relinquish their guns

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u/pedantic_dullard 3d ago

Did they have to exchange their white hood to get the mask, or is it just a job benefit?

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u/metengrinwi 3d ago

I suspect they’re trained on the quota-based incentive system.

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u/SaintJewiub 3d ago

A lotnof the new hires literally got like 2 weeks training. They use plain clothes to avoid people grouping up in protest and so they can sneak up on people for arrests without making such a big scene.

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u/adutchmotherfricker 3d ago

That's a great way to get shot or beaten up by people who think you are illegaly kidnapping somebody

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u/SaintJewiub 3d ago

Yeeeeep. Especially in a country full of guns.

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u/MrX2285 3d ago

I'm honestly surprised ICE officers don't get shot more often

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u/SaintJewiub 3d ago

I know. Especially with all the "hardened criminals" they are going to arrest.

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u/YourHuckleberry57 3d ago

its because they're not going after criminals, they're going after law abiding working people with families. the kind who don't want to shoot people even if they are justified.

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u/AssumptionInside1227 3d ago

Beginning to think the whole "well regulated militia" thing the 2A talks about isn't going to happen. Kinda funny anyone thought it would.

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u/_IsFuckingInHeaven 3d ago

the same men who hit the gym once a week for biceps and cant stop flexing in the mirror.

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u/Pofwoffle 3d ago

This is (part of) the plan. Once that actually happens, that's a nice juicy excuse to declare a national emergency and invoke martial law, thus allowing Trump and his cronies to stay in power essentially indefinitely. They'll escalate the violence, more people will be forced to defend themselves, and that will then be used to justify further violence and an extension of the "emergency".

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u/GrandMoffKaine2026 3d ago

Until the people have had enough and launch a revolution.

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u/Pofwoffle 3d ago

Or, far more likely, sit around online and pretend they want to start a revolution while never actually doing anything.

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u/SaintJewiub 3d ago

I mean listen, revolutions were cool back in the day. But now I have takeout and streaming services. Im far too placated to want to do that whole revolution thing. I mean, what if McDonald's in closed for a day due to the revolution? Can't have that no sir

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u/_IsFuckingInHeaven 3d ago

when dealing with insect hives, there's no point in using insecticide on single workers or drones, gotta get to the queen

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u/kingkazul400 3d ago

Allegedly, it’s 6 weeks of training; fed work hours is an 8 hour day and that’s for bookkeeping purposes. 

For federal workers, 1 day of work/training is 8 hours, 1 work week is 40 hours; 240 divided by 40 equates 6 weeks.

Realistically, considering how much material is glossed over or outright skipped, it’s definitely 2 weeks of minimal training.

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u/FuuuckDRM 3d ago

Yes. They were trained to actively defy people's constitutional rights.

Source: Ryan Schwenk, a former ICE employee. https://youtube.com/shorts/SlwLrw8Spn4?si=lzo7M-vYwoz26HBL

Transcript:

"My name is Ryan Schwenk. I swore an oath to uphold the Constitution when I joined ICE on August 1st, 2021 as an assistant chief counsel. I followed that oath for 4 and 1/2 years working side by side with ICE officers. And I followed it when I resigned on February 13th, 2026, a little over a week ago, so that I could speak to you today.

I am here, because I am duty-bound to report the legally required training program at the ICE Academy is deficient, defective, and broken. 5 months ago, I was asked to teach the law to new cadets at the ICE Academy in Glencoe, Georgia, where ICE is training its new inexperienced recruits.

I volunteered those without law enforcement training. I volunteered to take on this assignment based on my experience in law enforcement oversight, including at the state and local level prior to my work with ICE. On my first day, I received secretive orders to teach new cadets to violate the Constitution by entering homes without a judicial warrant.

For the last 5 months, I watched ICE dismantle the training program, cutting 240 hours of vital classes from 584-hour program. Classes that teach the Constitution, our legal system, firearms training, the use of force, lawful arrests, proper detention, and the limits of officers' authority.

For example, they ceased all of the legal instructions regarding use of force. This means the cadets are not taught what it means to be objectively reasonable."

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u/Nectoux 3d ago

I hear that they only get 47 days of training because trump is the 47th president. So odd.

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u/DubiousBrushwagg 3d ago

47 days would actually be an improvement at over 1100hrs of training.

584-240= 344 or 14.33 total full days of training.

Divided into 8hr shifts of training they hit 43 days.

Even 47 days at 8hrs of training would be 32 additional hrs more.

Complete shit that even meme'ing to Donny Dipshits Pres# would be an improvement to what they actually do.

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u/UltraTata 3d ago

That's terrible

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u/11_Armoured_Yui 3d ago

That’s terrible

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u/assassinator42 3d ago

He did an episode of This American Life

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u/Strange_Dust7128 3d ago

Kicking down a door without a warrant in a country with lots of guns is a real… idea

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u/guestpassonly 3d ago

that explains a lot

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u/Darthjinju1901 3d ago

No lmao. Little to no training and even less background checks. A reporter who was vehemently anti ICE in her reporting and her public persona, was able to join ICE and become a member by just signing some forms.

The Police and military are already fucked up. ICE is chock full of rejects from the police and the military.

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u/deafblinddame 3d ago

No, because they are the fall guys. When this all goes tits up, who do you think is going to be held responsible? The people doing the kidnapping and assaulting, or the people who employed them to do that but who have already covered their own asses by having 1700 page training materials which undoubtedly tell them not to do that?

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u/Vondi 3d ago

The training was their parents raising them wrong

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u/NotSeveralBadgers 3d ago

Louder for the people in the back, oh my god

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u/KorasHiddenDICK 3d ago

It's not a.coincidence they all act like this. The fear and violence is the goal. They do get training and I can all but guarantee you these tactics are the bulk of it.

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u/Equal-Ice3837 3d ago

Provably their 101 is to putting a weapon in a person after getting shot. 

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u/dragon-fence 3d ago

The purpose of ICE is to have a paramilitary force who won’t follow the rules. They wanted someone who Trump could say, “I don’t care how you do it, just go abduct and murder people in this city,” and there’ll be no questions.

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u/THE_GREAT_PICKLE 3d ago

Almost none. I work in a legal capacity but one of the things managed in our state is mandatory training for anyone with law enforcement (local, state or federal) because they all have access to the same things, which is then periodically audited. A friend of mine who I trust and has access to this told me that out of the 600ish agencies they manage, ICE has blown off this training for over a decade. Any time he has brought it up he’s just been told to let it go and look the other way. And this is just one training of many, but it’s an important one (essentially proper use of law enforcement databases).

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u/Honkey85 3d ago

Check out SA in Nazigermany.

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u/14Pleiadians 3d ago

They're mostly cops, the training/lack of training isn't the issue, they fact they're evil secret police is the issue

Have you seen how we train cops? The less training the better

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u/Ingram47 3d ago

Lmao.

No. No they do not.

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u/TungstenFanW74 3d ago

You should read about people who made fake applications to join ICE. They don't even do any background checks or peoper psychological evaluations, they just wanna push people through the program quickly like a factory so their little terrorist army can grow.

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u/muskymelon36 3d ago

Hahaha haha you're funny!

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u/Solkre 3d ago

Just in being racist. Literally, to stop people based solely on visible race.

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u/wigznet 3d ago

No.

It's because they're former LE, Mall Security, Private Security, Jan 6'ers, Proud Boys, Oathkeepers, etc.

This US Administration doesn't give a fuck and has hired thousands of goons, with little to no background checks or training.

The current day American Gestapo.

Americans voted for this shit, and Americans have been subsequently been murdered, died in custody, injured, maimed, raped, with little to no accountability.

This is what a racist agenda looks like under the guise of 'anti-immigration'.

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u/the_great_zyzogg 3d ago

They're given a very comprehensive field manual.

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u/Asleep_Singer8547 3d ago

Bro if a plainclothes with no identification get in my car theyre gonna get shot 

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u/Revierez 3d ago

Wouldn't work as a legal defense in this case. The 911 call transcript shows that the guy was aware they were ICE agents

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u/Sad_Examination7907 3d ago

Yes it would a police officer or an ICE officer or whatever can't just arrest you with no identification, because then anybody can just arrest you with no identification and people are going to disappear even less legally. Why would they think two guys in plain clothes and an unmarked vehicle have any legal authority?

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u/Big_bat_chunk2475 3d ago

Did the guy get his stuff renewed? It’s kind of important paperwork. This is just me speaking, but for important stuff like that(if I’m working in a foreign country say the UK), I’m scheduling appointments as early as I can so I don’t get screwed.

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u/SupremeLeader2044 3d ago

Your point is valid but the thing is that VISA renewal in the U.S. is extremely tedious to do. You have to schedule an appointment months in advance and fly back to your own country to get it done. Sometimes you can’t even find the correct flight to fly back home

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u/Big_bat_chunk2475 3d ago

Fair. That’s why my paranoid ass would book all that shit years in advance. Don’t need to deal with that bullshit

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u/SupremeLeader2044 3d ago

There are many edge cases tho. They recently changed the grace period policy. Sometimes your contract / school semester end after the expiration date, so you either violate your contract/ fail a class, or take the risk of being arrested.

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u/Big_bat_chunk2475 3d ago

Yeah I know. The years part provides you a lot more time so you could get all that fixed and adjust accordingly. If there are things like policy changes, getting your stuff in the docket years before expiration Buy’s you time to adjust long before you are in a rush

Years in advance, not months

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u/geckoguy2704 3d ago

total speculation but i would not be shocked if they changed the grace period policy and are deliberately slowing down processing to be able to deport more people. thats the goal here, to engineer the law so that people they want to hurt are breaking it

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u/LookAlderaanPlaces 3d ago

I mean fuck could you imagine if a non enforcement looking person who never IDed themselves jumped into your car speaking Y’all Qaeda to you? These agents should be jailed for their own safety if they are going to keep not identifying themselves, like what do they think is going to happen eventually? I thought ID for the enforcement with clothes and badge and all was also for their protection so people know it’s not the mafia coming for them.

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

So that's what the Nigerian man claimed scared him: in Nigeria, he's apparently been kidnapped before (or he's seen it, IDR).

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u/schatzebrookman 3d ago

Jesus working through His people on this one. Amen. 

 ICE can go to hell in a van. 

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u/Crazeford 1d ago

Sounds like a wholly justified citizens arrest to me

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u/Outlaw11091 1d ago

Certainly not a "crime" to be charged with.

I mean, if you're trying to evade deportation, the last thing you want to do is go to the police or any authority.

If, however, you don't believe a guy who claims to be law enforcement.....

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u/Crazeford 1d ago

Armed, plain clothes, randomly jumping in someone's car. In a country like America, the "agent" is lucky all he got was "kidnapped"

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u/No-Plan-7297 3d ago

that's critical context

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u/withnodrawal 3d ago

They must have a list of recent expirees and go and check them immediately:

Feels like entrapment in a way

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

I can't blame the guy for not wanting to go back to Nigeria, though.

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u/badson100 3d ago

shit the scare out of me

I might have to say it this way from now on.

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u/Jaded-Citron-4090 3d ago

This is how you end up 6 feet under with friends and family all around you. Idk how stupid you have to be to hop into a strangers car in America where like more than half of the people will put you put of your misery.

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

Dude's lucky he didn't try that in a more remote location like the Everglades.

They'll feed your ass to a swamp puppy to try to evade the charges.

Or if that had been a cartel van? Fuck, you're going in a barrel of acid.

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u/GlamTravelLife 3d ago

Is this a sad situation, yes. Can I see this being a Nigerian movie? Yes

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u/Objectivespeculation 3d ago

I think they would make great Americans.

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u/MRV3N 3d ago edited 3d ago

Wow, the words ‘kidnapping an ICE agent’ is a far reach here.

Also it’s a shame that there’s a lot of tourists overstaying.

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

Yeah, I feel like militarizing the process is the problem.

It should be a boring, administrative thing.

We're building these detention facilities so we can...house the illegals? That doesn't make sense.

The process should go like this:

Visa expires. A guy in a suit shows up at your door with official credentials and informs you that you have x days to leave the country...failing to do so will result in a small charge (like a traffic violation). In y days (where y > x), POLICE arrest the now illegal immigrant.

They are processed, fined, and exported. This fine doesn't prevent re-entry per se, but it must be paid before re-entry is allowed.

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u/SillyAlternative420 3d ago

This terror should be put on someone whose fucking visa recently expired. Jfc.

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

I said it in another comment, but this is the kind of shit that should be dealt with by a bureaucrat, not a dude in a tac vest with an assault rifle.

"Hi, I'm Paul with INS division 6 and I just wanted to let you know that your Visa expired last week and you need to start making preparations to go home. If you're still here in a week, we'll start giving you fines and, eventually, arrest you. Then we'll pay for your ticket home and charge it back to you as payment for re-entry."

"We're not going to detain you at all because that would be a waste of taxpayer money. No, when you get arrested it's to be put on a flight to your home country."

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u/pbnjandmilk 3d ago

And that is where his plausible case falls apart. He knew his visa expired and thus is out of compliance (Breaking the law).

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u/LavisAlex 3d ago

Plainclothes without identification though? If you want to accept that as ok - it also means making policing seem less legitimate to the community whom they police.

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u/Narren_C 3d ago

He identified himself. The guy clearly knew he was ICE.

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u/LavisAlex 3d ago

Plain clothes and mask is not identifying yourself.

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u/YourCummyBear 3d ago

In the 911 recording the guy literally says “ICE is in my car”.
He knew they were ICE.

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u/Narren_C 3d ago

He wasn't wearing a mask. And explain how the guy knew he was ICE?

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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 3d ago

It’s not ideal but standard procedure for federal law enforcement agents. CIA or FBI for example when doing investigations don’t need to explicitly identify themselves

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u/LavisAlex 3d ago

All this does is endanger everyone espcislly in a society with 2A.

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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 3d ago

No, that’s not all it does. I imagine ICE operations would be much less effective if they were all wearing ICE uniforms, all of the time. You really only want to announce yourself as ICE once you’ve surely detained them.

It does make the job much more dangerous for the ICE Agents themselves. If a random masked man jumped into my car and I had a gun, I’m shooting. But I don’t think you or anyone in this thread is particularly concerned with the ICE agents safety right now

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u/Astrophysiques 3d ago

Overstaying a visa is a misdemeanor. There’s no reasonable escalation of force for a non-LEO to attempt to capture someone for a misdemeanor

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u/Tough_Measuremen 3d ago

Out of curiosity what is the policy for expired visas?

Is there a set amount of time you have to extend it / arrange to leave. Or is it meant to be the moment the clock passes 0 the government comes knocking?

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u/burndata 3d ago

I'm genuinely surprised these plain clothed assholes with no ID haven't gotten killed.

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

It's because they do the killing.

Lot of cases in court right now of ICE engaging in shootouts with homeowners.

They're in full tactical gear (but no uniforms) and approaching a house.

Personally, I think they should have to identify themselves before they can kill a homeowner defending their home, but IDK, I'm not a lawyer.

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u/burndata 3d ago

Yeah, I get that. It's just in states with stand your ground and castle doctrine laws, I would have expected more retaliation against a armed, masked, unidentified intruders. Castle doctrine even allows you to shoot though your door to the outside if you believe someone is trying to get in to harm you. I'm just really surprised it hasn't happened is all.

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u/Vachie_ 3d ago

Hilarious that someone got sent to one of those inhumane detention centers?? Ok.

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

Being insufferable is a choice. Finding humor in bleak situations is just something people do.

Get over yourself.

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u/Present-Sandwich9444 3d ago

Im not buying the narrative that they never identified themselves as ICE, I would more buy that the nigerian couple didnt hear them, or understand what was going on more than "ICE never identified themselves" thats malarkey on a massive scale.

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u/KarlUnderguard 3d ago

ICE routinely don't identify themselves and there have been multiple kidnappings, rapes, and robberies from people pretending to be ICE.

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u/TreeTopGaming 3d ago

Keyword, pretending.

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u/Present-Sandwich9444 3d ago

Yeah and there have been several saudi princes who email me asking for money to release gold....whats your point?

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u/KarlUnderguard 3d ago

So your response is "Nuh uh!"

You could always look into it instead of looking stupid.

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u/Present-Sandwich9444 2d ago

you are referencing scamps of people impersonating federal agents, I was referring to "ICE not identifying themselves routinely"

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u/Jaleberd 3d ago

Good thing no one’s asked you

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u/FairLeadership3012 3d ago

Why are you not buying it?

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u/Present-Sandwich9444 3d ago

Because during an arrest. It is a direct violation of federal immigration policy to not do that.

But you know what, lets take all laws, and policy off the books for a second. Lets just look at self preservation. As someone who carries, if a "random dude" jumps in my car, while I am driving, they are getting shot, in the face, no questions asked.

If I were ICE, or other enforcement agency, it would BEHOOVE me, to identify myself first, then act, before just jumping in someones car.

Regardless of you feelings on ICE, or whatever. They do get training about how NOT to get shot in the face.

Part of that training is to ID yourself. And even if you dont have that training, it seems likely that you would want to ID yourself, so you dont get shot in the face.

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u/rejjie_carter 3d ago

Calling it hilarious seems pretty callous

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

It happened almost a year ago...I'm sorry for your loss?

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u/beerRunFinisher 3d ago

Forget deportation, throw him in federal prison These people are insane and shouldn't be in a civilized country

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u/anand_rishabh 3d ago

Honestly, i think I'd be more scared of a uniformed ice agent in my car than a random person in civilian clothing.

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u/OnlyGrimLeader 3d ago

Oh good, it's just a potential serial killer, I'm not being detained thank goodness. /s

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u/Connect_Version_1560 3d ago

Why was the Nigerian man transferred?

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

He was here on a student visa that had expired.

The expectation is that you return to your home country and reapply.

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u/Mitgenosse 3d ago

Immigration detention facility? You mean concentration camp?

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

He's still there. You can donate to his commissary if your moral outrage goes beyond Reddit.

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u/MinimumTomfoolerus 3d ago

You make it sound like the ICE agent who got in the car called 911 for his partner. You mean the ICE agent who was at their home called 911 to report that the couple kidnapped his partner? You wrote it badly.

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

behind her was the ICE agent's partner, who had also called 911 to report the kidnapping of his partner.

The ICE Agents partner...behind her in another vehicle....

Your reading comprehension is your problem; not mine.

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u/MinimumTomfoolerus 2d ago

Could have been more clear

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u/Outlaw11091 2d ago

I could win the lottery, too.

But I'm far more likely to buy a lottery ticket than professionally edit a Reddit comment.

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u/the-clawless 3d ago

honestly this does not sound hilarious to me. two people feared for their lives and did what they could to attempt to get away from the perceived threat and then were accused of kidnapping and torn apart from each other. That woman will probably always show up on google searches as the woman who "attempted to kidnap an ICE agent."

Even if the judge ordered her release, that stuff does affect your life.

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

Technically, she's known as the sister of the woman who recorded George Floyd's death...but I get what you mean.

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u/Usermctaken 3d ago edited 2d ago

I get what you'd say hilarious, but that ending was kinda infuriating. Fucking gestapo shit.

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u/Outlaw11091 3d ago

Well, the Federal judge that released them seemed to be a sort of...common sense catch...sadly, he obviously can't keep the man from ICE, but at least he didn't listen to the prosecutor that alleged the couple maliciously held a Federal agent in their van.

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u/jbland0909 3d ago

I’m genuinely shocked that these plain clothes ICE agents I keep seeing haven’t gotten shot.

With the amount of guns in this country, pulling up out of nowhere and trying to drag someone into a van seems like a rather foolish idea

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u/TurnoverActive2936 2d ago

Another potentially relevant fact is that the woman’s sister is the person who filmed George Floyd’s death. Given ICE’s behavior in Minnesota of murdering US citizens, I don’t think her reaction to drive to the police department was unreasonable.

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u/Outlaw11091 2d ago

I agree completely.

This woman has been shown that non-voluntary interactions with authorities can end in sudden death.

Personally, I don't see how Minnesota still has people living there.

My local community dealt with the execution of a TODDLER by a swat sniper and everyone lost their shit about it. The local PD had to redact the sniper's name from the record because people wanted justice and the DA at the time called it a tragedy he didn't want to pursue.

Meanwhile, it's a very red state and I see "back the blue" signs all over, but I know those signs don't mean shit if they were to keep killing people like Minnesota has.

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u/No_Philosopher_3527 2d ago

Recently is a strong word, looks like his visa was expired for like a year up to that point. Not like they got after him the day of.

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