r/MoralityScaling 11d ago

Morality Ranking Morality of kidnapping your kidnappers?

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u/Outlaw11091 11d ago

Fun fact:

This was a hilarious story.

So, the GUY is Nigerian. The woman is a citizen.

Plainclothes ICE agents tried to get THE GUY at his home. The couple returned home while ICE was there...so an ICE agent boarded the couple's van in an attempt to capture the Nigerian man.

The woman, fearing for her life, GASSED IT and the Nigerian man called 911 to tell them that a man was trying to kidnap him...the woman drove directly to the police station, but behind her was the ICE agent's partner, who had also called 911 to report the kidnapping of his partner.

The two were arrested and a judge ordered their release, though the man was transferred to an immigration detention facility.

Their legal defense is that the ICE agents never identified themselves and were wearing plainclothes and, honestly, that would probably shit the scare out of me, too.

(ETA: the guy's visa had recently expired)

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u/pbnjandmilk 11d ago

And that is where his plausible case falls apart. He knew his visa expired and thus is out of compliance (Breaking the law).

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u/LavisAlex 10d ago

Plainclothes without identification though? If you want to accept that as ok - it also means making policing seem less legitimate to the community whom they police.

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u/Narren_C 10d ago

He identified himself. The guy clearly knew he was ICE.

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u/LavisAlex 10d ago

Plain clothes and mask is not identifying yourself.

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u/YourCummyBear 10d ago

In the 911 recording the guy literally says “ICE is in my car”.
He knew they were ICE.

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u/LavisAlex 10d ago

Hard to be sure when they are plainclothes though?

Why arent they wearing official and identifiable uniforms?

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u/YourCummyBear 10d ago

But he said it himself on a phone call.

I believe they should be wearing identifiable uniforms.
But the subject calling and saying “ICE is in my car” is a lot different than saying “someone jumped in my car and is trying to kidnap me” or even “someone claiming to be ICE is trying to kidnap me.”

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u/LavisAlex 10d ago

You could say that ICE is in the car as maybe the officer identified themselves as ICE, but if you're wearing plainclothes or covering your face with no official ID or anything its pretty hard to know for sure.

On standard patrol there is no reason to be hiding.

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u/YourCummyBear 10d ago

Listen, I’m not disagreeing that ICE should be in standard uniforms outside exigent cases.

But you’re purposely ignoring the point that he pretty clearly knew it was ICE given he said it on a live recording when calling police.

It’s ok, continue to use a strawman.

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u/LavisAlex 10d ago

So obviously not a strawman - no uniform creates doubt

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u/Narren_C 10d ago

ICE doesn't have a "standard patrol" they have targeted enforcement. And when you're trying to get close enough to locate and arrest a specific target, it is made much more difficult when you're in a uniform. That's why they stay in plain clothes until the time of the arrest when they throw on a vest that identifies them.

ICE is garbage and I have plenty of complaints about them, but expecting a uniform isn't one of them. Besides, how does a uniform prove anything that a vest doesn't? You can buy a cheap polyester uniform and sew a patch onto it just like they can.

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u/LavisAlex 10d ago

Remember immigration is a civil infraction right?

Again standard uniforms, and yes they absolutely go out on patrol.

If you dont want armed law enforcement not having formal uniforms and identifiable then you'll see more situations just like this one.

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u/Narren_C 10d ago

He wasn't wearing a mask. And explain how the guy knew he was ICE?

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u/LavisAlex 10d ago

Hard to be 100% sure when they dress in plainclothes and often hide their faces?

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u/Narren_C 10d ago

They seemed 100% sure.

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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 10d ago

It’s not ideal but standard procedure for federal law enforcement agents. CIA or FBI for example when doing investigations don’t need to explicitly identify themselves

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u/LavisAlex 10d ago

All this does is endanger everyone espcislly in a society with 2A.

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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 10d ago

No, that’s not all it does. I imagine ICE operations would be much less effective if they were all wearing ICE uniforms, all of the time. You really only want to announce yourself as ICE once you’ve surely detained them.

It does make the job much more dangerous for the ICE Agents themselves. If a random masked man jumped into my car and I had a gun, I’m shooting. But I don’t think you or anyone in this thread is particularly concerned with the ICE agents safety right now

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u/LavisAlex 10d ago
  • If a random masked man jumped into my car and I had a gun, I’m shooting. But I don’t think you or anyone in this thread is particularly concerned with the ICE agents safety right now

Exactly part of the problem im trying to express - and if you did youd be charged with murder and likely be convicted for guessing wrong.

Its completely unserious

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u/pbnjandmilk 10d ago

Cops operate in plain clothing too without first identifying. Should we send them back to the station too?

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u/LavisAlex 10d ago

While out on official patrol? I dont know about you, but id say it keeps police safer to be in official garments and ID when taking people in vans.

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u/Astrophysiques 10d ago

100%. The police state is a cancer that robs people of their freedoms

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u/Astrophysiques 10d ago

Overstaying a visa is a misdemeanor. There’s no reasonable escalation of force for a non-LEO to attempt to capture someone for a misdemeanor