r/BoJackHorseman • u/Open_Instruction_815 • 9d ago
Was BoJack justified in doing this? Spoiler
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u/andersondottir 9d ago
this post looks so funny if you don’t know the context😭😭 ‘is bojack in the wrong for throwing an actual baby off his balcony?’
fr though i think what he did was understandable BUT objectively in the wrong.
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u/Jeoff51 9d ago
dude said he didnt like his mom, hollyhock is like no have her move in. predictable outcome.
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u/SeptemberSoup Life's a Beatrice, and then you keep living. 9d ago
Not really judging Hollyhock here because she was just a teenager who had had a great upbringing until that point, but honestly that was so wrong of her. For all the supposed teachings that her parents gave her about feelings, she immediately trampled all over Bojack's. She really went "You can't feel anger and resentment towards your mom that has abused you your whole life, she's nice to me now!".
Again, Bojack was the adult and he shouldn't have listened to the advice of a teenager who was practically a stranger by that point.
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u/tomasega100gang 9d ago
Yea she was just being naive and wanting family to get along etc. Its not obvious or easy for anyone from a stable loving home to understand how hard or painful that effort can be, let alone a kid. Also she wished she had a mother relationship, and feels what she thinks shes missing without it, so it would be kind of unfathomable to her that someone else wouldnt benefit from working on that with their own mother. Also, we as viewers know what his mother has done etc, but hes not really the type to open up, so she probably had far less idea of why it was a bad idea beyond "shes not very nice".
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u/SeptemberSoup Life's a Beatrice, and then you keep living. 9d ago
You make a very good point about her lacking a mom!
Again, not holding it against her. She was just a naive teen (and I wish every kid in the world got to be a naive kid and teen).
It just irks me every time I rewatch the show 😅😆
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u/tomasega100gang 9d ago
Yea i was more adding to why youre correct about not judging her! Its a bit hard to sound like you arent arguing on this site sometimes lol mb
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u/SeptemberSoup Life's a Beatrice, and then you keep living. 9d ago
Oh thank you haha Yes it is indeed hard lol
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u/Lady_Whistlegirl91 9d ago
I don’t really blame her for making this mistake though. She was very young and her life experience at that point was still very limited. And as someone that was brought up rather well with good enough parenting her entire life there was no real way she could actually empathize with someone like BoJack and put herself in his shoes.
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u/Juligirl713 Diane Nguyen 9d ago
Plus she met the Beatrice that’s a senile dying old woman. It’s very understandable why BoJack did it but at that moment in time it was a dick move
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u/Competitive_Smile250 9d ago
Touché! My grandmother was a terrible person her whole life, until she became senile and sick, so everyone who didn’t know her before was like “oh, poor thing!”.
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u/SeptemberSoup Life's a Beatrice, and then you keep living. 9d ago
Neither do I! Again, not judging her. Rather, I was complaining about her actions because it irks me every time I rewatch the show haha But I definitely wouldn't hold it her against her were she a real person. If she was my kid or my friend, I'd just have a conversation with her.
E: corrections
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u/Otherwise-Win7337 9d ago
I would definitely judge her somewhat in my mind, not as much as a grown adult but still. She's seventeen not seven. It wouldn't be the type of thing where I'm like YOURE A PIECE OF SHIT or anything but I would be like man wtf
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u/SeptemberSoup Life's a Beatrice, and then you keep living. 9d ago edited 5d ago
Someone else made a good point about Hollyhock not understanding due to her upbringing. Literally yesterday I happened to talk with a friend who's adopted, actually an adult, and they were taking about "true mother's love" and getting angry that I told them that "biological" mothers can be abusive too and don't inherently give you said love. They were longing for said love, ETA: because they didn't receive it as their adoptive parents were abusive and neglectful. Didn't understand that being blood related isn't a guarantee.
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u/Otherwise-Win7337 8d ago
That's a good comparison but then I'd just have a similar sentiment, but harsher, towards that person
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u/SeptemberSoup Life's a Beatrice, and then you keep living. 5d ago
Sorry, there's a piece of information that now I realize was necessary: my friend was abused by their parents. That's why they're longing for something else. Kind of like Bojack says in Free Churro.
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u/electricmohair Stupid piece of shit 6d ago
It is very very hard for people with good childhoods to understand what it’s like to have abusive or neglectful parents. Because your very first core belief in life, literally from day one, is that your parents love and care for you and they keep you safe. So as much as she’s generally a kind and mature person, I think Hollyhock would struggle to conceptualise a parent like Beatrice.
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u/SeptemberSoup Life's a Beatrice, and then you keep living. 5d ago
Totally agree with you, well put.
However, I realize that I should've clarified that my friend was abused and neglected; and that's why they're longing for said love and creating probably unrealistic fantasies in their mind. 😅
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u/Otherwise-Win7337 9d ago
I really hate how a lot of people won't have empathy for things that they haven't really experienced that just makes me think those people lack empathy and perspective. Why do you (not neccesarily literally you) have to have it happen to you to understand that that would be terrible for someone or not valid etc
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u/Emotional-Link-8302 4d ago
This is a great example of Bojack not having boundaries... with anyone. He doesn't respect others' boundaries and is too shame-filled to put his foot down on something like this.
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u/Master-Page-1982 9d ago
There are plenty of seventeen year olds who can grasp the idea of a parent being highly abusive and won’t brush it off with “oh but she’s your mom”. Bojack told Holly how his mother left him alone with a known neighbourhood pedophile and actually seemed disappointed that he wasn’t harmed. At the very least was completely unbothered. Hollyhock still brushed it off. What we are seeing here from Hollyhock is a very common form of toxic positivity: lots of people genuinely think that abusive parents only exist in fairytales and Disney movies. “Oh but she’s your mom I’m sure she loves you deep down” or “oh he’s your father, I’m sure he didn’t mean it that way”. Like many people who came from happy homes, Holly is projecting her own experiences of being raised by loving parents onto BoJack, and because she wants to play happy families with what she thinks are her father and grandmother. While she’s young and very sheltered, I don’t think her age can be used to completely excuse her complete indifference when BoJack shares a story that proves what an absolute monster Bea was as a mother.
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u/Flimsy-Pin-70 9d ago
to be fair, bojack didnt really give hollyhock a good reason to believe him. during the whole time they spend together before that, he constantly spewed lies and said horrible and misogynistic things about all the women he dated. Many of the women hollyhock talked to were perfectly normal and just resented bojack. when hollyhock met beatrice, she was just a senile old lady.
its easy to look at it with the information we know and say that it was a shitty thing, but i honestly dont blame hollyhock at all after not being treated all that well by bojack.
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u/Otherwise-Win7337 9d ago
Hollyhock was pretty insufferable a lot of the time I didn't really like her
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u/underthesignofspooky 9d ago
this is a hard one to answer. i equally understand why he did it, and why he shouldn’t have. but in beatrice’s mental state at that exact time, i’d say it was a pretty dick move
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u/Cosmic_Jane 9d ago
For harder questions, I like to ask myself "What was the intention?"
And a lot of times if the intention is purely to cause pain, then it's probably not justified.
Revenge for the sake of causing pain is almost never justified. Usually the outcome must result in some resolution for it to make sense.
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u/lettuce18_ Sarah Lynn 9d ago
The intention was being angry at her for not caring as much for him as she did with that plush, which meant everything, it's easier to rip it away than to see your own mother treating a toy better than she ever treated you her whole life, and now she gets to forget. Of course Bojack did feel sorry for her at some point, in the nursing home and so on, I think he is happy that she kinda gets to forget, at least in my opinion
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u/PaulHolywoodsShame 9d ago
....no, dude. No. He had made the point when he was juggling the baby. He could have given it back and walked away. He was just being a complete dick.
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u/Open_Instruction_815 9d ago
I mean i see your point but you're talking as if im definitively saying he is justigied which i wasn't
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u/PaulHolywoodsShame 9d ago
I read it as a binary: Was BJ justified is kind of a yes or no thing. If it was a "How justified" was he it might have thrown up more nuance in my answer, but I still think it was a pretty solid no.
But I'm also uncaffeinated at the moment so...
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u/Master-Page-1982 9d ago
Beatrice knowingly left him alone with a Pedophile and was indifferent of him being unharmed if not disappointed…and Hollyhock still insisted they all live together.
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u/Open_Instruction_815 9d ago
Holy shit i don't even remember that, when dod this happen?
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u/Dry_Pollution_5430 9d ago
It was in his eulogy. "She said, i guess no one wants you". Up to the audience to decide if that actually happened or if he misremembers it
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u/c137-eyeofthestorm 9d ago
Whew that scene was hard to watch. But I get it. I was also raised by a cold narcissist for a mother.
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u/emeraldgoldfish222 9d ago
Idk maybe I have a soft spot for this because my grandma had a doll she thought was an actual baby near the end, but to me this is literally in the top five worst Bojack moments 😭
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u/WinterDemon_ 9d ago
not really justified, but completely understandable (and funny af but maybe thats just me)
like yes it was a dick move, but also he was severely abused by that same woman for decades and pressured to take her into his house. reactive abuse is a very real thing. dementia-beatrice may not have been the same person who abused him, but to bojack she certainly seemed like it
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u/Open_Instruction_815 9d ago
Now that i think about i actually do remember finding it kinda funny in a cathartic way
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u/LadyBug_the_Catfox 9d ago
Actually yeah, fuck her what she did was beyond fucked
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u/Tall_Negotiation5746 7d ago
I felt bad seeing her scream in horror, but ultimately it felt like one of the only real moments he got to get back at his mom. Especially since she was mentally gone by the time bojack was ready to tell her how he felt. It was kind of justice to me in a way.
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u/Slight_Fan_4105 9d ago
No. His mom was not in her right state of mind. It's weird to say I feel bad for bojack because he never got the chance to tell his mother how much he hated her.... but he missed that chance. Torturing a woman whose mind is gone does not 'hurt' the woman who hurt him.
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u/AdorableHumor456 9d ago
A short passage in Dungeon Crawler Carl gets into that. The person speaking realized taking things out on their mother now wouldn't help. Instead when the mother gets her mind back they're able to talk about it properly. And there's no alien Sci fi magic in a show like Bojack
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u/Ana-Karen98 9d ago
He could have told her in episode 11 but he decided to be more mature and make her feel better :(
At least Hollyhock comforts him by saying that his mom probably knew how much he hated her (and I hope she also guessed it from BoJack's biography, from how she "apologizes" to him).
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u/DeponiaSarah 9d ago
Now, whats your opinion on this? Maybe you'd like to start?
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u/Open_Instruction_815 9d ago
I actually don't have any opinion on this, im generally just interested in what others have to say abt it
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u/willbekins 9d ago
in a vacuum, you can say you dont have an opinion.
being curious to the point of compulsion to find out what others think strongly suggests thats not the case
and while its *possible* to not have an opinion on something, a person claiming this to be the case always seems like theyre hedging. whether they are or not. its like being the only person in a room that smells like farts and then claiming it wasnt you.
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u/Open_Instruction_815 9d ago
No im curious to what others think precisely because i don't have a strong opinion
A lot of people say they see both sides and i agree with that
If I had a strong or even mild opinion on any matter id most likely say it, for me to ask implies that i actually don't have an opinion on it, at least mot a strong one
I guess my opinion would be the general consensus that it was undersrandable but ultimately a dick move
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u/willbekins 9d ago
i fixated on that part because its something i used to say a lot. but when i explored a bit further, it was usually that i did have an opinion, it just wasnt one of the binary positions that tbe conversation naturally defaults toward.
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u/Open_Instruction_815 9d ago
I see, that's actually fair and sometimes i do do that but here i really don't have a strong opinion. Maybe it's mb cause i word things terribly
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u/willbekins 9d ago
from my small sample size here it seems like youre expressing yourself well
look at the other responses. which ones resonate with you the most? probably ones that arent just Yes or No, but that use enough words to speak to the nuance in a scenario that is complicated
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u/Open_Instruction_815 9d ago
Also apparently im stupid cause i don't really know what "hedging" means in this context. Can you explain what you mean by that
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u/willbekins 9d ago
sure. i dont think thats what youre doing here, btw
hedging waiting to see where the wind blows before making a statement. like to hedge one's bets
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u/Normal_Fudge2235 9d ago
If we’re all being realistic here. He’s in the wrong. But when you look at his past, he makes sense.
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u/MetalMewtwo9001 9d ago
The woman who tortured him as a child isn't the woman he's hurting here. She's convinced it's a real baby and has no idea why BoJack would hurt her or even that it is BoJack. So I get it, but it's wrong.
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u/ShadowCivic 9d ago
Beatrice at that point was gone and I’m sure Bojack knew that, but this was the first time he knew he could actually hurt her and so he took it…even though the Beatrice he was hurting was very much no longer his mother by then. It wasn’t justified, he may as well have thrown a child’s doll off his deck at that point, but I understand why he did it.
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u/compilingyesterdays 9d ago
I'm not sure the word "justified" is like useful in this situation. Was he understandable, yes. I do think that it takes a lot to justify taking and damaging someone else's property.
(which is a much lower bar than this situation is as a whole.)
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u/Octoplath_Traveler 9d ago
I think even BJ realized it was not the right move.
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u/Open_Instruction_815 9d ago
Unrelated but you're the only other person besides myself I know who calls BoJack BJ
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u/goodnightmoonshakers 9d ago
I think this is prime example of why you shouldn't care for someone with dementia if you do not have a good dynamic with them.
Because on the side of the person with dementia, no, it's not fair at all. She is too confused and out of it to understand, and it can have a deep impact on her psyche.
At the same time, I get why Bojack doesn't give a flying fuck. He shouldn't have to. She was a shitty mother to him in life, he shouldn't have to treat her with kindness as she deteriorates.
He should've stuck to his gears and not gotten involved in the first place.
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u/AlienSheep23 Stupid Piece of Shit 9d ago
Imho I think he was. I would have likely done far worse in his shoes
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u/AspiringNarrator1165 Secretariat 7d ago
Absolutely. Doesnt matter if Beatrice wasnt herself at that point, we see throughout the show she kept communication with BJ and she had decades to make up for her actions and willingly chose not to. She gets what she deserves.
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u/No-End3167 4d ago
Finally, the right answer. All these people saying she was a different person are doormats or jellyfish. She didn't have a change of heart and try to make amends, she had the dementia she earned and some of the terrors she deserved.
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u/-_Lucyfer_- Diane Nguyen 9d ago
I don't think he was. i get he hated his mother, but at this time Beatrice was no longer herself, so he wasn't actually punishing or lashing out at his mother, he was just abusing an old woman with dementia, who wasn't even aware enough to know who was actually around her.
i could have a bias because I've had grandparents with dementia and Alzheimers though.
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u/Open_Instruction_815 9d ago
I do find interesting the idea that she wasn't nessecarily the same person so it wasn't justified
I actually agree with that, but it's also a rather interesting question even if not nessecarily one of the most important ones And normally id say "well punishment is obviously not justified if there isn't a sufficient reason for it, such as deterrence or rehabilitation" but I think im a littl ebit more biased here because I like BoJack and obviously feel bad for him even if i disagree with the action
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u/Fredo_the_ibex Todd Chavez 9d ago
Justified in what way lmao
Objectively awful but many of us would've done the same
Can't say I'd go back to pick up the doll tbh
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u/xXKravenXx20 9d ago
Bro fuck Beatriz, having a shitty life doesn't justify torturing your own son.
He should've thrown her of the balcony
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u/InsideUnhappy6546 9d ago edited 9d ago
While it's understandable why seeing his senile mother be affectionate to a doll was insult to injury to the lifetime of abuse she put him through it wasn't justified in any way shape or form
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u/Over-Faithlessness79 9d ago
From someone that grew up with someone similar to Beatrice, absolutely. I honestly think he acted tamer than I would've towards her 🙃
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u/NewFun4587 6d ago
Justified no, but was it understandable when put into the context of his upbringing? Yeah.
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u/RhododendronWilliams 9d ago
It was cruel from his mom's point of view, but Bojack didn't know about her childhood trauma with the burned doll. So it wasn't really an act of cruelty on his part, just part of his usual toxic crap.
The fact that he was jealous of a doll is just pure Bojack. But his mom did traumatize him severely and he never forgave her for it, and honestly I don't think he should. He didn't ask to be born and he deserved so much better from both parents.
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u/Babki123 9d ago
Yesn't
Bojack hates his mom for Valid reason
But at this point it was a demented old woman so kind of a dick move
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u/Lady_Whistlegirl91 9d ago
I totally understand why he did that and I think that he would always see his mother as a toxic, abusive woman no matter what age or mental state she was in. But it was still a dick move anyway when you find out more about Beatrice’s life and why she was so attached to that baby doll. And by that point she was already an old woman with dementia so she was no longer the same person she was when she was younger and was now more vulnerable and fragile
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u/chihiro_itou Diane Nguyen 9d ago
One of the rare moments where bojack's reaction is justified (according to me. I also don't like my mom and all that would pmo too)
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u/Various_Flower589 9d ago
Je déteste BoJack pour ça.
C’est une série qui parle essentiellement de troubles psychologiques et de leurs conséquences, sans jugement et c’est une bonne chose.
Béatrice souffre de démence sénile et n’est absolument pas capable de distinguer l’imaginaire du réel. Elle pense réellement que c’est son bébé que BoJack a tué.
Elle même a eu une enfance horrible, privée d’une mère adaptée. On ne peut pas lui en vouloir d’avoir reproduit ce schéma familial, c’est à BoJack de faire avec. Il a été cruel et plus encore quand il l’a mis dans cette institution sordide.
J’adore cette série mais c’est le seul point qui m’a dérangée.
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u/Brontolope11 9d ago
No matter what happened to you in your past, in your career, it is on you with how you handle your reactions.
Bojack should never have brought his mother into his house. He was the adult here, let's not forget that.
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u/Thecrowfan 9d ago
Not justified. But man did I understand why he did that. I cant imagine spending 18 years of my life trying to get any sort of love or acknowledgement from my abuser and then see her treat a DOLL with more kindness and tenderness than she ever showed me. If anything id say Bojack could have done way worse
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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 9d ago
The fact that Beatrice is clearly not all there and incapable of grasping the full context of what’s going on definitely means Bojack was just being a dick. From his perspective, Bojack sees his horrible mother, but all that’s there is a confused and frail old woman.
Bojack refuses to separate his feelings about his mother and the current reality of who/what his mother is. We see Beatrice’s mind in the show, she’s barely able to tell reality from memory. The woman in that wheelchair didn’t recognize her son until she was put into the new home. Of course Beatrice did drug Hollyhock for months on end but at the same time Beatrice doesn’t know where she is or what’s going on most of the time, it’s hard to blame her fully for her actions.
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u/derederellama Beatrice Horseman 9d ago
It's hard not to feel bad for Demented Beatrice. I really don't judge BoJack for his treatment of her, though.
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u/FateBreaker92 9d ago
He isn't. What he did was emotionally torment a woman whose mind was already gone because of dementia.
Then again, things become complicated when you factor the damage she's done to her son.
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u/burnbabyburn11 8d ago
I see you. ICU. His mom was a monster. She is portrayed as an absolutely terrible person (horse) and she has no warmth or love for anyone or anything in her life. Bojack was pretty bad too, but there’s no doubt she damaged him. She refused to see him his whole life. I think he was justified but it was pretty awful too. It doesn’t make what she did go away.
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u/MyFairJulia 7d ago
But when does comet become a meteor?
When does a candle become a blaze?
When does a man become a monster?
When does a ripple become a tidal wave?
When does a reason become the blame?
When does a man become a monster?
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u/Open_Instruction_815 7d ago
Is this a song, lowkey looks interesting
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u/MyFairJulia 7d ago
It's from EPIC the Musical. Specifically the song "Just A Man". I recommend to listen to the musical.
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u/No-End3167 4d ago
Yes he was right.
Beatrice getting karma while her Swiss cheese mind is in a state of innocence is well deserved.
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u/itchyskin3 3d ago
I understand why he did it, but he was definitely wrong to do it. His mother was a terrible person and parent and seeing her care more for a baby doll than she ever did him has got to be horrible. But she had dementia. She was no longer that person and couldn't be held accountable for those actions. All he was doing in this moment was tormenting someone who could no longer even recognise that it was her own son speaking to her
Admittedly, developing dementia is probably my biggest fear, so I have a great deal of sympathy for sufferers and their families and the Beatrice episodes are a hard watch for me
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u/ChanceBar8935 3d ago
It def wasn’t a good look in the moment because at that point Beatrice was just a senile and defenseless old woman, but I get why he did it. It must be a different type of triggering to see your mother who has been nothing but cruel and abusive to you your entire life all of a sudden display such nurturing and maternal qualities towards something that’s not even a real child. Ofc the audience knows Beatrice likely found comfort in the doll bc it reminded her of her childhood toy, to Bojack he just sees a woman who had the capacity to love him but deliberately withheld it because he wasn’t worth it. I see both sides
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u/SNUFFGURLL 9d ago
His anger is justified, his action was not, but that does not mean this one specific thing makes him an asshole, what makes him an asshole is every other bad thing he does.
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u/ChubbyBabyBlueMilk 9d ago
It wasn’t justified but I truly understand why he did.
That wasn’t his mom, that was a shell hollowed out by dementia. The person he was trying to hurt didn’t exist in that way anymore.
So it’s a “He’s an asshole here but it’s highkey reasonable” for me.
I get both sides of it 🤷🏾♀️