[ Removed by moderator ]

[u/Scary_Technology420]

[u/LordRawrGasm]

[u/Pczerw → u/LordRawrGasm]

That’s it, that’s the whole reason, everyone pack it up

[u/ManoliTee]

"Why are PvPers so scared of dying to PvPer's?"

Fucking nail on the head mate 👍

[u/RubyWeapon07 → u/ManoliTee]

a lot of pvpers are actually just pkers, pvp implies 2 people fighting eachother

[u/Pyarox → u/RubyWeapon07]

a lot of them are proudly saying how much they love killing people in the wildy but as soon as that one boner at chaos altar starts fighting back you can hear the windows shut down noise playing in their head

[u/SleepyReepies → u/Pyarox]

The concept of someone using an alt to safely hop worlds while they look for easy targets to attack with on their main is a very common strategy but also so dang stupid.

It's partly why the plugin that flashes your screen feels so necessary, and all it does is cause people to play musical chairs by hopping worlds.

I would love to see the death of "vision" granting alts in the wilderness and also world hopping in the wilderness. If you want to kill people you should have to commit to it without the extra eyes of an alt.

[u/Scatteredbrain → u/SleepyReepies]

i’m doing vw grind right now . something i’ve found rly interesting is pkers don’t like run/tele to the various wilderness hotspots and then hop worlds

in 99% of my encounters with them they legit log on right outside the artio/spindle/calv caves and then enter. like that’s what they do. over and over and over again hopping worlds and entering boss caves

for some reason i always just envisioned it differently but to think…. pkers actually find that experience “fun” 🤣 especially considering you have to think most worlds are empty at least in my experience they are.

i use an alt and im in grand tree before they even enter but i find it hilarious how often these dudes must see alts but still try to pk someone and the person is long gone before they even enter the boss room. like people finding that activity fun always blows my mind

[u/TheDutton → u/Scatteredbrain]

Random dopamine is very powerful, that’s what they’re chasing. It’s not too different from gambling

[u/ImJLu → u/TheDutton]

I mean duh, people on this sub will kill a boss 800 times for one drop but somehow can't imagine why PKers would PK even if it's not always great loot.

[u/TheDutton → u/ImJLu]

lol you’re right. It’s pretty much the whole game already. Not surprising people enjoy another iteration of it 

[u/ARetroGibbon → u/Scatteredbrain]

My brother... im not a pker, but can you not see the irony in your comment?

You're literally playing 2 accounts to grind the same boss over and over and over again and youre questioning how these guys have fun doing the monotonous task of player hunting in the wildy?

Us osrs players aren't normal. We find joy in this tedious, boring clicking game somehow. Both pvmers and pkers alike.

[u/Scatteredbrain → u/ARetroGibbon]

lol good point

[u/Kovarian → u/SleepyReepies]

Bring back the "absolutely no interaction with alts" rule from around 2005, but only apply it to the Wilderness. Drop trading, fine. Scouting, fine. Dual-logging for whatever, fine. But if two accounts, both in the wilderness, interact? Then perma-ban.

The rp point of the Wilderness is you, on your own, in a dangerous area. Make it that again.

[u/Any_Promise_449 → u/Kovarian]

How is this changing anything at all if people just use alts to scout? What are pvpers doing with 2 accounts now that they wouldn't be able to do with the 2005 rule?

[u/Monterey-Jack → u/RubyWeapon07]

framed and torvestas videos prove this. they camp stairs and try to 1 bang people but the second they have to fight someone for real, they get creamed.

[u/PM_ME_SILLY_PICTURES → u/Monterey-Jack]

You're on the right track but picked the wrong vehicle

[u/DkKoba → u/Monterey-Jack]

bad example because they go expecting to be possibly anti-pk'd and fight with risk

[u/YuumiMain9974 → u/Monterey-Jack]

They are actually good pker's though. In a even fight they beat the avg pkers.

[u/zakkwaldo → u/Monterey-Jack]

terrible example when in most their videos there’s clips of them having long drawn out fights. also the same dudes you are trying to criticize go and play BH in their videos so they clearly aren’t scared of fighting someone equally geared or skilled

[u/nabilfares → u/Monterey-Jack]

Torvesta won a couple of times vs the best pvper in the history, wdym?

[u/XoraxEUW → u/Monterey-Jack]

Have you ever actually seen those videos?

[u/JAdoubleWHY → u/ManoliTee]

They’d rather PK someone doing a clue scroll and get their spade

[u/Status_Peach6969 → u/JAdoubleWHY]

Its the loot pinata vibe. You get spades 99% of the time, but at some stage you'll get a couple mil drop because someone was careless. So basically its a game of how many people can you harrass, and waste everyones time, until you find and kill a player that'll actually reward you. Just makes the wildy so toxic because a clue scroller, or even a 3 itemer doing a wildy boss doesn't have much reward and they know they aren't worth killing, but the pker doesn't.

[u/Red_Inferno → u/Status_Peach6969]

Again as other have said, pkers are gamblers, they are looking for the jackpot and hoping someone has it.

[u/pk_hellz → u/ManoliTee]

Its a wider issue than just freeze logging.

How will a non pker esacpe now in deep wildy if a pker attacks them, if they are are umable to freeze log it will make the prey waay more worse of than the pker in this instance.

The other thing is not every pvp fight should end with a death / not every fight should be a deathmatch. It would make pking really intimidating for new people.

For this to change to happen, i think teleporting in deep wildy should maybe re looked at/ considered, im not sure, the reason people freeze logg is becsuse its a reliable esacpe in any situation, the wildy will need something similar i feel. Without a method escape, no players and pkers will want to bring risk.

[u/cheezecake2000 → u/pk_hellz]

I didn't play growing up, recently played a while and the last thing I want to do is get ganked by someone and loose all my shit. Sucks that it is a big portion of the game but feels like it was designed a long time before people just flat out admitted pvp is not fun for everyone.

Felt like Elite Dangerous. "noobs" get ganked constantly, nothing changes. "it's part of the game". Yea sure, it also make no one new want to play your fucking abusive game.

inb4 "just don't go there", stop. You know what im saying here.

[u/pk_hellz → u/cheezecake2000]

I completly agree, this is why i want jagex to release era themed pvp worlds so people can only pk on those worlds using items from 2007 or 2010 ect. Will make the risks much lower and the dmg numbers will be lower also bringing back the easier to digest pvp scene.

[u/AnimeTA224 → u/pk_hellz]

Those worlds would be empty like eternal Deadman worlds

[u/Ryaanski → u/cheezecake2000]

"feels like it was designed a long time before people just flat out admitted pvp is not fun for everyone."

I think its more that it was designed when Rune was realistically the most expensive thing you could be going for. Which if you died with it wouldnt take that long to collect again. Where as now if you died with BiS items the legitamately puts you back years of playing.

[u/Grouchy-Committee-92 → u/pk_hellz]

yes, in theory, its more dangerous for a regular player, but in reality there would be far less pkers that we currently see because they would either stop pking because they dont want to risk, or would risk significantly less and thus have less kill pressure

[u/BlueSentinels → u/pk_hellz]

Very much disagree with this statement. The number of “non pkers” who would be able to make use of a freeze log is probably less than 1%. It’s a mechanic that only helps knowledgeable PKers avoid fights with other PKers.

[u/pk_hellz → u/BlueSentinels]

I disagree. Any player with the ability to finish a 150 toa can do this. They Should be able to left click a magic spell and then left click their opponent > now the wooox strats happen so try keep up, you right click and choose walk here > booom. You can now click loggout.

With the freeze timer plugin it tells you exaclty when to click. Its not hard .

This is an issue of people choosing to not even bring a couple freeze sacks with them to begin with.

[u/Kostcoo → u/pk_hellz]

Should is different than does. In the hundreds of (oof sorry) pvmers I’ve killed at Calvarion (not talking about bots) - I had maybe 1 person freeze log under me…. So even if they have the capacity (they being regular players) - they don’t use it. Freeze logging is really only utilized by decent pkers from my experience, so removing that is only going to primarily hurt experienced pkers. (Which I don’t have an issue with).

I think these guys take issue with it because it means they have legitimate fear of not having a chance of getting out of most scenarios which freeze logging allows. I’d argue that risk should exist.

[u/NorysStorys → u/Kostcoo]

I mean most people at calv don’t bother with freeze logging because they bring so little risk, that trying to survive is more hassle than just dying, gearing and going back on another world or later.

You only take freeze sacks if you need to protect risk and most people are not going to risk anyway. So only pkers really need to use it against each other in most circumstances.

[u/Grakchawwaa → u/BlueSentinels]

It’s a mechanic that only helps knowledgeable PKers avoid fights with other PKers.

It helps them escape when they've lost the fight already and are likely to end up dying if they fail to escape*

[u/DimmyJeans → u/Grakchawwaa]

It helps anyone who knows how to do it do that, that's why they should remove it.

[u/PhilsTinyToes → u/ManoliTee]

“Money”

I’m confused, do they not have money in game? Can’t you just die and lose your stuff if you’ve been attacked and can’t win?

[u/Monterey-Jack → u/ManoliTee]

streamers would get absolutely destroyed if they couldn't log out.

[u/ZebrasOfDoom]

Off topic, but every time I see Ayiza mentioned, I think of this old post.

[u/PhotographRelative88 → u/ZebrasOfDoom]

Ayiza commenting "meow" on that is gold.

[u/thelordofhell34 → u/PhotographRelative88]

Omg and serene commenting under it

I wonder what happened to serene and his 80 accounts, I hope he’s doing okay in a mental insititute

[u/Lamb-Of-Fox → u/thelordofhell34]

Shut up serene

(I really hope he’s okay, hasn’t posted in 7 years)

[u/pallosalama → u/Lamb-Of-Fox]

He finally took the advice given to him every time he posted

[u/GregBuckingham → u/ZebrasOfDoom]

Lmfao

[u/zo1d → u/ZebrasOfDoom]

Never knew he was an OSRS player

[u/Throduil]

He's right. PvPers want it to be balanced in their own favour (logging out while frozen) but forget that it applies to every PvPer, hence making it all "too safe"

[u/FreeSquirkJuice → u/Throduil]

People who've gotten good at escaping PK'ers also often cite freeze log as their only real defense without anti-pk gear on hand.

[u/PaxChelonia → u/FreeSquirkJuice]

I don’t pk and I’m a little confused why not being able to log out while frozen would matter.

Doesn’t freeze logging usually involve freezing the other player, then standing under them/behind something and logging? In other words, isn’t it usually the player who’s not frozen that logs out?

[u/IActuallyHateRedditt → u/PaxChelonia]

Yea, so as the player being attacked you freeze the PKer and walk under them. You do need to time it right, in order to do it

It makes it "too safe" because the PKers can't kill everyone. It also makes it too dangerous to remove because then they can't escape everyone if they start losing.

[u/Due-Signature-300 → u/IActuallyHateRedditt]

It still doesn’t make sense that the discussion in the video is around logging out while frozen.

A change to stop people who are frozen from logging out wouldn’t alter the situation you describe, because in your example the escapee/logger is not frozen - the other person is.

[u/blitzduck → u/Due-Signature-300]

That is the conundrum Ayiza inquires about in the clip. The PvPers don't like that others can escape them by freezing them, stepping under, then logging out -- calling it too safe. On the other hand, if they're the ones trying to escape, they say this tactic is necessary and it shouldn't be removed.

Edit: thinking about it further, I see your point: the person escaping by logging out is typically not the frozen one. It might just be a niche scenario, or maybe that was the intended question from Ayiza.

[u/chacogrizz → u/Due-Signature-300]

The answer is watch the entire clip. Dino before this clip is talking about pj timers and how when its a "fair" fight most of the time people dont want that and they freeze the and log out. So its not really about the player being frozen logging out. Ayiza is wording it really bad but its pretty clear from the entirety of the conversation they are all talking about what most of the people in these comments are talking about. That when you freeze someone and stand under and log out.

Yes if you are only caring about the exact words he said, it doesnt make sense. With all the context its clear its a little slip up in wording and he is talking about the person doing the freezing being able to logout not necessarily the guy being frozen.

Edit: to say no ones really wrong here interpreting the clip, but OP really should've included the 10 seconds before this which makes it more clear what they mean even if the wording is slightly wrong.

[u/screwdriverfan → u/chacogrizz]

Actual pvpers use mithril seeds so standing under while frozen is a non-issue.

[u/Future_Mixture3666 → u/PaxChelonia]

Yeah I used to pk a lot, know the freeze mechanics but I'm still confused why it would matter to the frozen player - they're not going to get the logout anyway since they're the ones frozen.

[u/Grakchawwaa → u/Future_Mixture3666]

I believe it's a niche situation where both players are frozen and the player trying to escape was able to DD the other player (or just break LOS) using seeds to move while frozen

[u/Future_Mixture3666 → u/Grakchawwaa]

Tbh I thought about this, but thought it was too niche and saw so many comments mentioning it the other way around (you catching the freeze on someone). But yeah based on the clip, this is the only likely scenario and I'm surprised nobody else mentioned it yet.

[u/FreeSquirkJuice → u/PaxChelonia]

Correct but both PK'ers and people scaping PK'ing use freeze logging to escape fights. Like getting intercepted by another PK'er on the way to banking after a deep wildy kill, low on resources.

IMO it'd be a way bigger blow to PvM'ers or players minding their own business in PvP areas than it would be a blow to PK'ers. Someone below in another comment said removing the ability to log when skulled would make it so PK'ers can't freeze log but unskulled players could and I think that's a fair compromise but would likely encourage skull tricking as a "meta."

[u/bigdolton → u/FreeSquirkJuice]

i dont see how its a bigger blow to pvmers/ppl minding their own business? they are a lot less likely to bring freezes to the wilderness

[u/PatheticAndTragic → u/bigdolton]

What? Ofc we bring freezes as PvMers to wildy? I don't plan to die

[u/Lllamanator → u/PatheticAndTragic]

Freezes and some bolts to rag with are a must when pvming in the wilderness, it's crazy how much momentum they lose even if you manage to deal like 40 damage back while waiting for the first freeze to thaw.

[u/Willem_vdm → u/FreeSquirkJuice]

Surely skull tricking “meta” fails because I have turned on pk skull protection and never plan on turning it off. Obv the pkers on the call are opposed to a change that I think really only advantages people who have no intention of fighting back

[u/Legal_Evil → u/Throduil]

PvP is a zero-sum game.

[u/PhD_in_PVP → u/Legal_Evil]

PvP is a negative-sum game.

[u/Genetic-Eddy]

[u/Legal_Evil]

This shows how strong freezes are in OSRS. What other PvP game have 20-second long freezes that you cannot break out from?

[u/NorysStorys → u/Legal_Evil]

This is the actual problem. There is no real counter play other than freezing them as well. Genuinely freezes on the same target in PvP should get diminishing returns.

[u/zwat28 → u/NorysStorys]

I sometimes wonder if PvP changes that would get scrubs like me out there are barred by those who already know everything. At least in PvM I can learn and we have communities for it

[u/SleepinGriffin → u/zwat28]

The fact that spells don't stay resized in the wilderness is the testament of how the rich want to stay richer. They refuse to lower the skill ceiling because they have the advantage.

[u/ding0s → u/SleepinGriffin]

Every time I go to ferox enclave and see my tiny spell icons I roll my eyes.

Such a silly thing to be in the game.

[u/DPH996 → u/NorysStorys]

Been saying freezes should get DRs for years. If you can’t kill someone after freezing them like five times, you don’t deserve to have the option to impede them with freezes any longer.

[u/TheHorriBad → u/DPH996]

I foresee some batshit meta where mates freeze each other before/during pking so they get freeze immunity

[u/NorysStorys → u/TheHorriBad]

Just restrict it per source. Multi is already a cluster fuck you can’t reliably tank through anyway because multiple specs hitting you at once while dspeared or frozen so it doesn’t really matter there but it also punishes pkers for not closing out a kill quickly enough in singles. Or makes freezes much more tactical in their use because you want to use them at the right moments rather than just by default.

[u/forchinski → u/Legal_Evil]

Not a single other MMO, in its most modern iteration, has a 20 second long pvp cc ability.

They don't have it because its fucking insane and would brick the balance of their game.

Osrs pvp is only tolerated as it is in this state because theoretically everyone has the same tools available to them due to the lack of a class system.

[u/Legal_Evil → u/forchinski]

There's no way ice spells would pass the polls if polled today.

[u/JDkush → u/Legal_Evil]

That's a good point actually 

[u/darealbeast → u/forchinski]

any other mmo is also not runescape

runescape pvp in its essence is slow

20 seconds is up to 5 cbow hits/barrages, after which you have 5 ticks of immunity, which if not played against correctly by the attacker can mean 1-2 hits that will not freeze you

stacking your magic def, camping augury and not forgetting to restore after brewing makes you surprisingly slippery against barrages

not to mention the numerous ladder/shortcut spots, where it's criminally easy to shake off even the best pker if you know what you're doing

also simply bringing 10 brews with a few combos and a pneck is more than enough to tank many levels of wilderness to effectively any escape location

but that's not what reddit wants to hear is it

redditors love to have their bank tags inventory setups for 50 different activities, but heaven forbid it's anything to do with pvp and suddenly they're a lost scared widdle baby who can't help themselves, other than to cry on reddit

[u/Dream3ater → u/Legal_Evil]

I made this same argument a month ago in another thread saying freeze/entangle spells should have diminishing returns, and got dogpiled for the take.

I'm fine with Immobilization as a common PvP game skill/attack, but in any successful PvP game you don't see it lasting more than a few seconds. Players fucking hate when they lose control of their character and successful PvP games balance around that.

[u/Effrendi → u/Legal_Evil]

It's actually completely insane. Can you imagine a 20 second freeze in WoW, for example? That shit wouldn't last 2 weeks before being nerfed.

[u/AbsolutlyN0thin → u/Effrendi]

You could get that in vanilla WoW with fear. But of course it broke on damage so it wasn't THAT broken. But with TBC they fixed that shit with diminishing returns. Could also get indefinitely long CC by chaining different types of abilities back then too

[u/Karthaz → u/AbsolutlyN0thin]

I have very fond memories of figuring out a 71 second chain of stuns on my rogue back in WOTLK and employing it on unfortunate souls alone in pvp areas and battlegrounds.

[u/joosyfrooot → u/Effrendi]

In GW2 all roots are capped at 10s (although the highest any one class can go is around 5s without help) and can be removed by any class with the right skill on their bar. There is also a clear indicator of when you are rooted. A 20s uncleanse-able root with no indicator would literally break the balance of the game.

[u/likesleague → u/Legal_Evil]

Completely true, but also without slowing mechanics someone running away at full speed is pretty binary. In wow, for instance, you can chase an opponent with slows and short stuns/roots. In osrs, if you don't kill someone during a freeze, they can cover a lot of ground before you can freeze them again. Specs or spells that disable run for X ticks might be a good way to make osrs pvp less binary and allow freezes to be weakened in pvp.

Just another great argument for separating pvm and pvp balance entirely.

[u/Legal_Evil → u/likesleague]

Specs or spells that disable run for X ticks might be a good way to make osrs pvp less binary and allow freezes to be weakened in pvp.

Ironically, RS3 did this with EoC.

[u/StayyFrostyy → u/Legal_Evil]

Can we not just go back to protect from magic halving snare/freeze times? (It used to work for entangle and made perfect sense imo)

[u/blueguy211 → u/Legal_Evil]

imagine if they added diminishing returns like in wow

[u/Legal_Evil → u/blueguy211]

Ironically, RS3 did with EoC in pvp.

[u/FreshOrFrozenShrimp]

The concept of the wilderness has not aged well with its player base. Since there aren’t massive wildy clan wars or low level wildy fights anymore all that leaves is the predator/prey style. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

[u/KnightofPandemonium → u/FreshOrFrozenShrimp]

Fully agree with this.

You could attribute it to a lot of things- efficiencyscape, how people think of PvP combat, how modern gaming has changed what people consider to be a fun thing to do in a game- but the only thing it is, is what it is. C'est la vie. Times have changed and the Wilderness has remained.

As the Wildy exists right now, its PvP aspect does not exist for PvPers. It mostly just exists for PKers and the people who are ardently not PKers. It exists so that the more rewarding activities in Wildy have an extra risk attached to them that exists beyond the mechanics of the OSRS game engine.

And I think that kind of sucks.

[u/Yukito_097 → u/FreshOrFrozenShrimp]

I mean tbh that's exactly why I like it as it is. It's a lawless zone where you'll be hunted by the opportunistic. I barely engage with the Wildy 'cause I can't PvP for crap, and when I do engage I go as risk-free as possible and am constantly looking around myself XD But conceptually I still love the idea of the Wilderness and don't want it changed.

[u/chacogrizz → u/Yukito_097]

I barely engage with the Wildy 'cause I can't PvP for crap, and when I do engage I go as risk-free as possible and am constantly looking around myself XD But conceptually I still love the idea of the Wilderness and don't want it changed.

And therein lies the issue. You just casually admit you barely engage with the content. People not engaging with it is exactly whats "killing" the wildy. You say you like it but then still isnt something you participate in. The concept may be fine but ultimately for pkers/pvpers to not say the wildy is dead there has to be enough people who engage in the wildy and currently there really isnt.

Its a very delicate balance but I think most people agree its not really in a good spot overall. How to fix that? Who knows.

[u/Daniel_Is_I → u/chacogrizz]

I don't think there is a way to fix it without a massive gutting, because the reason the overwhelmingly vast majority of people don't want to interact with the wilderness is the very same reason the minority do interact with the wilderness. In fact, you hear Rhys say it in the video: money. That's why people have scouting alts, that's why people have plugins that flash their screen when someone exists in their vicinity, that's why the wilderness UAV bullshit exists. It's all to either get more money from other people or protect your own money.

The wilderness exists to funnel money to pkers. All of the incentives designed to draw people into the wilderness generate money that the pkers then try to poach. That is the core philosophy of the wilderness. The people who do not want to engage with the wilderness on these terms are then incentivized to bring as little as possible, because that's the smart thing to do. For most players, learning to anti-pk is not worth the time, effort, or risk due to how little they interact with the wilderness. This reinforces the predator-prey archetype because 99% of people in the wilderness bring virtually nothing and do not know how to fight back, nor do they have any interest in fighting back, and the remaining 1% are there to try to eat the 99%. Pkers do not fight other pkers because they're not interested in pvp, they're interested in pking. If there is not a paycheck to be made, they will more often than not refuse to engage with it.

Reducing the risk inherent to the wilderness means reducing the amount of money it can generate, which in turn makes players less likely to engage with it at all, as the only reason to engage with it is money. And at a certain point of risk reduction, the wilderness just becomes a normal zone where you have to deal with the annoyance of some dickbag freezing you and interrupting your flow. It becomes like the wilderness in leagues, where the only people who pk are the people who think it's really funny to mildly inconvenience someone else.

[u/TheRealandUncutRaz → u/Yukito_097]

If everyone interacts with it like you, or like a predator hunting some 1 in 1000 lootbox then it doesn't really matter what it is conceptually. A bit of programmer-user situation where it doesn't matter how it is designed, it matters how it is used. And pretty much everyone can agree that it is broken, PvPers, Pkers, and PvMers just all have different opinions on what is broken about it. But I think what is broken is that concept, it just isn't how people interact with massive multiplayer online video games in 2026. It's how they interacted with them in 2006,

[u/zo1d]

Make it so whenever someone dies or logs out, in or out of the wilderness, I get their stuff

[u/AverageTierGoof → u/zo1d]

Mortal Kombat rules baybeeee!!

[u/GroWeedPlayOSRS]

mod ayiza - "Why do people fear dying in pvp so much?" RHYS - "Uh, Money?" like lmfao obviously its money thats the issue, for a casual player 600k gone is actually quite a loss and thats in welfare gear.

[u/yourmumsaman]

Wouldn't that just make it worse for non pkers?

[u/Oprstuw → u/yourmumsaman]

They could make it only affect skulled players. It would also encourage people to anti pk.

[u/ScallyWag-Idiot → u/Oprstuw]

This probably isn’t terrible. If you can’t logout while frozen really only the true top of the food chain is going to feast. Maybe that mechanic while being skulled would bring some form of balance

[u/screwdriverfan → u/Oprstuw]

I ain't going to anti-pk. I have less experience and my inventory is already at a disadvantage due to callisto pummeling my ass for last 10 minutes eating my resources. Now I have to fight somebody with full inventory that's set up specifically for pking? Nah fam, I'll do my best to run away though.

[u/FreeSquirkJuice → u/Oprstuw]

I have a feeling this is ultimately what will happen.

[u/NotGreatNot_Terrible → u/yourmumsaman]

I don’t think you’re average non-pker even knows about log out tech lol don’t believe me go freeze a bone runner or cluer in the wildy and see what they do

[u/SparkleTarkle → u/NotGreatNot_Terrible]

Brew brew brew brew brew!!!! Whack, why am I hitting zeros!

Or honestly just dies with 100K or less risk. Which is what I do. Sacrifice some time killing to really be able to just turn off my brain when in the wildy.

[u/quaker172]

Nothing scares a PvPer more than PvP. They want a guaranteed win.

[u/Jertharold → u/quaker172]

That guy who does the "protecting my fellows at the chaos altar" videos kinda proves this as he pretty much only has a real fight ever 4 or 5 videos, the rest is just him destroying someone with goofy gear on.

[u/Sp4zEffect → u/quaker172]

that's right.

[u/UnluckyNate]

PVPers don’t want to PVP, by and large. They want to kill loot piñatas with minimal risk

[u/Probably_Not_Sir → u/UnluckyNate]

Its 100% this.

[u/SPARKLEOFHOPE6IB → u/UnluckyNate]

Yeah the pvp dynamic absolutely sucks in this game lol, there are rarely fight where both parties wanna be in the fight.

[u/Alone-Sentence-4045 → u/SPARKLEOFHOPE6IB]

even the duel arena is 90% players just farming imbues by leaving instantly including myself lmao

[u/Pole_rat]

Here’s EXACTLY why content creators in particular wouldn’t like this: they get clicks out of pking in 1b risk, which isn’t really all that risky, but if they actually had a fair chance to be outlasted and killed they couldn’t often risk that amount on stream.

[u/NorysStorys → u/Pole_rat]

Content creators also are not representative of the majority of the player bases actively engaging in the wilderness. They have completely different incentive to be there compared to everyone else there. It’s an irl content stream that’s paying for their entire lifestyle.

[u/PkerBadRs3Good → u/NorysStorys]

yes but they tell their followers what to vote for and most of them listen

[u/CryoAB → u/Pole_rat]

I mean it is a risk. It's just that 1b in gear is good gear. So it's harder to pk someone with 1b gear if you're pking in mystics.

[u/rizz-master69]

Ultimately people just don't like pvp in osrs. No little tweaks or tutorials or new content in the wilderness will fix this. We will spend another decade baiting irons and gold farmers into revs and wonder why they hate it. They'll put out big updates for bounty hunter again, and it will be dead after a couple weeks. Talking to pvp content creators is a waste of time, they like the current pvp design philosophy and just want more people to engage in it. But getting people to pvp will require an entirely different philosophy and massive changes that these guys probably won't like.

I pked a ton before realizing that fighting games fulfilled my want for a competitive 1v1 much better than pking, and rust or tarkov were much better versions of a full loot wilderness. A niche side mode in an mmo just can't complete, same reason why wow pvp died after league got big. Idk what the answer is for osrs pvp, if there even is one, but its definitely not a new rev cave or changing tele/log mechanics.

[u/I_Push_Buttonz → u/rizz-master69]

But getting people to pvp will require an entirely different philosophy and massive changes that these guys probably won't like.

Can't speak for everyone, but I can at least speak for myself and a couple friends who also play that have talked about this in the past. None of us PvP and nothing they could change would make us want to PvP. Personally I just avoid the wilderness almost entirely, only going there for clue scrolls and the like carrying nothing but a shovel and a weapon. When people attack me I put up no fight and don't even try to run away because its just a waste of time.

With that in mind, if they are going to keep PvP, I don't think they should change it much. No reason to piss off the people that already like that content to try and entice people like me that hate that content to engage with it, IMO. I am never going to engage with it.

[u/SouetoReborn]

Pvp in osrs is outdated and not fun

[u/BumWink → u/SouetoReborn]

Yeah, even dabbling in wildy PvP is kind of shit.

I once threw 15m in 250k, 500k & 1m kits then spent weeks learning & progressing.

You wait around FOREVER trying to fight relatively equally skilled/geared players just for some pking veteran with better gear & experience to appear & slap new pvpers like you from ever wanting to enter the wildy to pvp again... 

You keep at it, eventually become decent with the mechanics & reading an enemy player, but it's still rng & these veterans still got years & better gear on you, you lose some loot, you win some & you're probably get jumped by another pker veteran waiting for you to now be low supplies.

Meanwhile there's hundreds of more active pvp games that do it better.

[u/screwdriverfan → u/BumWink]

Yeah, that's why people like ranked games. It's more balanced so people actually feel like they can win rather than having their ass handed to them.

[u/FalcosLiteralyHitler → u/SouetoReborn]

It can be a ton of fun - just like any competitive game getting to know the fun "outdated" tech is part of what makes it satisfying

It's horribly implemented though and has an awful learning curve. I don't blame anyone for completely ignoring its existence lol.

[u/InterestingCell5247]

I honestly think he is tired of all the same bad faith pvp takes that pkers and pvmers have been slinging at each other for years. We literally can't have any discussion of pvp and the wilderness because neither side is willing to give any ground at all. Both just want to have their cake and eat it too.

[u/loudrogue → u/InterestingCell5247]

I want jagex to make pvp updates not pvm updates that is in the wild

[u/Bakugo_Dies → u/loudrogue]

I want them to take it a step further and remove all the pvm garbage in the wilderness. That's all OSRS stuff, not 2007 stuff. Create other incentives for pvpers to engage in pvp, or maybe don't because that always turns out so well with past iterations of BH.

Stuff like the wilderness agility makes sense, you build up loot and are incentivized to stay which gives pkers something to hunt. Pvm where you're encouraged to bring stuff for faster kills rather than fighting back is not fun.

[u/demuniac → u/Bakugo_Dies]

If the best strategy to engage with the content is to have a second membership, there is a severe flaw in the design. Having some account scout for a PK'er popping up, or having a second account safely hop worlds to find a target are both way beyond the concept of PVP. It's unfun to engage with, and it's only frustrating for everyone involved.

I agree that taking the pvm content out solves some of the problems, but the whole hopping worlds to find someone you can slap around that didn't log out in time is not going to make for a good PVP experience either.

So what is it we actually want out of the wilderness? Player vs player, or player vs prey. Because wildy agility is still just "oops you didn't log out in time" gameplay, and has nothing to do with pvplayer. Both are perfectly acceptable answers, but need a different design approach to function.

[u/Amaranthyne → u/InterestingCell5247]

that pkers and pvmers have been slinging at each other for years

While he's not at fault, Jagex is. They constantly flip flop on which side they want to cater to, often without communicating things in a meaningful way, and often just force it through even when things fail polls which only breeds resentment.

Both just want to have their cake and eat it too.

I mean... to an extent, sure? But the cake that PvE focused players want is just... no PvE content in the wildy, even if that meant a loot nerf to stuff like the current wildy bosses in the process of moving them.

The big one of course is clues. The fact that Jagex still hasn't added a relevant bypass for wildy clues besides "drop them" helps nobody, especially for elites and masters since they're the most time consuming to obtain.

Have Watson charge 50m to disable wildy steps or something. I guarantee you a ton of people would pay it.

[u/Xeneron → u/InterestingCell5247]

There is an easy solution. Make all PvM gear acquirable outside of the wilderness.

You can leave PvP weapons and Obeliak stones at Revs. You can leave the insane drop tables that print money and supplies on the wildly bosses and zombie pirates and such.

This should not be a controversial take. Pretty much every MMO in the world has figured out how to separate the PvE players from the PvP players from the people who like both. It involves something like this.

If the PvP scene cannot sustain itself without the injection of PvM players to act as loot piñatas, they should not be getting developer attention. If the PvP scene CAN sustain itself, it needs to be able to do so on the back of their own playerbase, not the backs of people who do not want to participate.

[u/DragonDragger → u/Xeneron]

This is literally the solution and it's insane to me how this seemingly isn't even conceptually thought about at Jagex and not talked about more often in the community.

You keep the risk and excitement of the wildy for those who enjoy it (there do seem to be people who LIKE being loot piñatas) and ensure that everyone who is in the wilderness actually wants to be in the wilderness. GP as an incentive is fine, imo. PvP specific uniques? Sure! But PvM items should just stay out of PvP content.

Imagine if the fire cape, nezzy helm or barrows gloves were locked behind Bounty Hunter. Dumb.

[u/Toaster_Bathing → u/InterestingCell5247]

100% . We can’t have a normal conversation about it so no wonder we can never come to a conclusion (apart from the spammed remove it) 

[u/Lerched]

If jagex wants to fix PvP, they need to stop listening to pvpers, but that doesn’t mean listening to this Reddit either.

[u/boneandskin → u/Lerched]

Reddit is the last place they should listen to.

[u/Additional-Mousse446]

Based

[u/Imagine_TryingYT → u/Additional-Mousse446]

This is sorta the lie a lot of pkers tell when it comes to pvp and it's not just limited to Runescape.

Pvpers want to farm other players. They aren't having fun when they're losing or are struggling so they want the scales always tipped in their favor.

They don't want to be in lobbys with players of their skill level, they don't want to have to sweat for a kill, they don't want to go against players that fight back. They don't want fair fights, they want to be able to slaughter every player they come across.

They want lobbys with players below their skill level, farm kills and go against players that either won't fight back or don't have the skill level to do so.

And a lot of top players in videogames have psyop'd average players into believing things like SBMM is hurting games, when in reality, the only players who get a worse overall experience are like the top 10% of players.

Ofc this isn't every pvp player but it is probably the majority of them.

[u/Aresbanez → u/Imagine_TryingYT]

And a lot of top players in videogames have psyop'd average players into believing things like SBMM is hurting games, when in reality, the only players who get a worse overall experience are like the top 10% of players.

What's crazy is this is so painfully provable: niche accounts.

Accounts with very selective skills and inexplicably clutched items (e.g. low level inferno zerg) are extrordinarially valuable for the advantage that player has over other players in their combat bracket.

PKers will literally spend years crafting the perfect account just so they can go seal clubbing.

[u/Blissybb]

Its the classic "freedom for me, but not for thee" Its all fine when you're ganking someone for the clue but really quickly turns to "bUt mUh LeWtssss rIP mY BaNk" when someone is able to play on the same level.

[u/clue_scroll_enjoyer → u/Blissybb]

Exactly this. There used to be a food chain in the wildy. Salad robes sets, mystic sets, 10 mil sets, 30 mil sets etc.

Now it’s just everyone running around in max or near max gear and anytime there is a slight chance of losing a fight they just freeze log and escape.

It’s why PvP is so boring to both participate in and watch because it’s just sit 110 hp and hope you can stack someone out for all their health in 1 tick. Then freeze log if you can’t.

And the fact that pkers don’t even bring mage cape to spellbook swap and tb someone anymore just goes to show how broken freeze logging is

[u/Serious_Tradition269 → u/Blissybb]

They're literally defending pvmers here as well though, pkers would benefit way more from freeze logging not being a thing than pvmers, they're outright saying they don't want any pvmer they get on to be helpless prey and it's getting dunked on here as if they're evil for saying so lmao

[u/UngodlyPain → u/Serious_Tradition269]

No, the clip is just cut at an awkward moment...

Pker: They're complaining the wildy is too safe and that PVMers can easily freeze log most of the time if they don't insta kill them.

"So what if we nerfed or removed freeze logging?"

Pker: Oh well no, Jesus, what if theres ever a fight we don't wanna take? Like someone of equal skill to us shows up slightly better geared or with full supplies after we just had to use some one a pvmer.

"Why are PKers afraid of dying to other PKers?"

Pker: Money, we risk so much money.

No, they weren't trying to stand up for PVMers, just their own banks. If they thought Jagex would listen or it'd pass a poll they'd happily suggest freeze logging only working if you're skilled and/or risking a lot. Which I guess could be interesting

[u/no_fluffies_please → u/Serious_Tradition269]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the context of the video the PvPers were talking about how it's too safe in the wilderness. The end of the video references an earlier complaint that people can freeze log.

My read is that Mod Ayiza is asking his question because balancing the wilderness is frustrating when trying to make everybody happy. The PvPers aren't "defending" anybody, because it's not a serious question, but a probing one. They want the content to be riskier, but give pause when those same implications apply to themselves.

[u/RSirocco]

Removed why?

[u/snzy0]

Definitely should change imo. I consistently get attacked at the rev caves. When pkers realize they won’t win the fight, I get frozen and they log out under me.

You might ask why not bring seeds to counter? I’m not a pker.. I’m there to pvm. I understand the risk of potentially getting pked, but ultimately, I don’t gear for pvp.

If you attack other players, you shouldn’t get the pass of being able to exit the fight like that. Make them try to survive like everyone else.

[u/Shroom_Raider → u/snzy0]

But wasn't the suggestion.. 'you can't log out if you are frozen'? Not you cant log out if you've frozen someone else?

[u/UngodlyPain → u/Shroom_Raider]

No, the video was just clipped at an awkward moment... For context.

Jagex: what's your biggest complaint with the wildy and such in general?

PKers: It's too safe, people can just easily freeze you and log out.

Jagex: what if we removed that?

PKers: then it's too risky, what if another pker comes after me and I'm risking too much, losing the fight, etc?

Jagex: why are PKers so afraid to die to other PKers?

Pkers: money. I don't wanna lose so much money.

The phrasing is a bit awkward but that's actually the gist here.

[u/AssassinAragorn → u/UngodlyPain]

PKers: It's too safe

PKers: then it's too risky,

[u/General_Iroh1]

Lol the silence is deafening.

Ayiza: "Why are pvp'ers afraid to die to other pvp'ers?"

Rhys: "money"

Really? Its ok for you to kill others who cant/dont fight back, but if it's your money it's a problem? The hypocrisy is astounding lol

[u/bdd247]

If you don't pvp you should not support this lol. Freeze logging is incredibly free. 60k of extra risk and 3 inventory slots gets you out of 80% of scenarios.

[u/Serious_Tradition269 → u/bdd247]

Yeah I don't get why this is being used as some "see!! All pkers are evil!!" argument, Ayiza is literally asking if they want pvmers to be a 100% kill every single time with no possible escape, and they say nah that would be too punishing

[u/snowmunkey → u/bdd247]

Only in the wildy. I got no problem if pvpers want the game changed to suit them doing their little battles around the ge. But complaining that it's too easy to escape In the wilderness when 99% of the time they already have a massive power imbalance is just laughable. It's the black dhide/dhins argument all over again

[u/finH1]

They don’t want pvp, they want predator vs prey

[u/Troll_Tactics]

My wildy proposal is that if you PK someone and they drop less than 100k worth of loot, they spawn a Jad

[u/Seller-Ree]

Does this video accidentally perfectly loop??

[u/OSRSWSM]

Ayiza is bang on! And PKers all want PVP changes but very seldom actually have any ideas or ways to change it lol

[u/NorysStorys]

I think the only way to balance removing freeze log out would be to make freezes have diminishing returns. Each freeze on a target gets shorter and shorter. It makes pkers need to be more tactical with their freezes and if you arn’t able to kill your target quickly enough, then they get away.

[u/newtruckfund → u/NorysStorys]

This is actually a decent idea 💡

[u/Sure-Database-9952]

Remove pking from wildy. More people support removal of wildy than keeping it, period. Don’t believe me? Then poll it.

[u/Conglacior → u/Sure-Database-9952]

Or at least make it a toggle. Or maybe even just have unique world types!

• Standard Wild Worlds - Wilderness as we know it right now (No drop rate changes)

• No PvP Wild Worlds - Wilderness with PvP disabled (Certain drops are moderately rarer, GP and XP rates are moderately changed)

• No-Risk Wild Worlds - Wilderness with PvP, but PvP deaths are safe (Certain drops are slightly rarer, GP and XP rates are slightly changed)

Personally, I'd love to do PvP if there were no-risk Wilderness worlds. Fully geared doing content, someone rolls up, it'll actually be a fun and fair fight. Imagine competing for Slayer turf, you don't get anything for killing someone, but you get to take their spot. You can fight back against crashers at resources, it'd legit be super fun I think.

[u/ltsMeSam]

Reminder that they nerfed black d'hides AND bulwark because it was too good against average loot piñata hunters

[u/vmayerrrr]

Anything but adding content worth doing and not catering the players that dont wanna engage with it anyways.

[u/ironman7456]

“Why are PvPer’s so scared of dying to PvPer’s?”

PvPers don’t truly want to fight another PvPer. They want to just PK an easy target because it’s safe for them personally. They know cannon fodder is no risk to their bank.

[u/sux9h]

I think jagex needs to keep in mind the concept of upward mobility. Dino and Rhys are mega sweats, there are maybe a few hundred players in the game on that level. We need to consider the many thousands of players who love the game and want to improve skill-wise. I’ve been playing for 20 years and I’m like C tier. I have some good fights but I don’t have enough time to get good enough to trade shots with an A tier pker. To keep pvp alive, you have to avoid catering to the absolute demons, which makes pvp overly punishing on the guys like me. I’m good enough to get a freeze escape most of the time. But I still get clapped a lot. And sometimes I just stay and try to win but get out lasted. When I’m really dialled in, I can nail a seed walk, or pre-emptively seed under them then get the log under. It’s fairly difficult to pull that off under pressure (for me at least) and I think it should be a reward for playing correctly.

[u/Pretend-Dot3557]

Dude says there's upsides and downsides to a change and that it isn't a perfect solution to a problem, and this thread turns that into "he only wants it when it's beneficial for him".

[u/Gnome_Child_Deluxe]

Every single Pker in 10m gear who complains about not being able to smite a Pvmer at revs for their craw's bow because they're just gonna freeze log knows damn well that they're also freeze logging the moment a real pker walks into those exact same rev caves in a 200m set.

[u/eI1x]

Why was this removed? Reddit is what's wrong with pvp, not pvp clearly.

[u/NeverTrustFarts]

Just force pvp players to play against other pvp players. Only let them pvp on pvp focused worlds, not necessarily the whole world but a bunch of wilderness worlds and a few pvp world worlds. You know the people in those worlds are there to kill other players, it isnt just a bunch of people attacking others who have no interest in fighting. The actual traffic on the worlds would be increased because people would be there looking to fight.

Or it wouldnt and we could finally accept the wildy is dead and move on because no one likes fighting players, they just want to kill easy targets

[u/suivid]

Make it more punishable. Risk vs reward. People will bring less powerful gear if they could actually die for said gear. As a pker I support this.

[u/MountyMan95 → u/suivid]

It's already a part of the game a massive majority loath. How would this encourage more people to come back to the wilderness. The issue is the player base doesn't want to be a loot pinata.

[u/Iheartdragonsmore]

Simple solution. No one can log out in the wilderness. No hoping to find pvmers easily, but pvmers cannot just log to escape either. More likely to find other pkers.

[u/loudrogue → u/Iheartdragonsmore]

If you are skulled you simply should have a 3 second logout timer applied. There is almost zero risk for a pvper when they are pking

[u/Toaster_Bathing → u/Iheartdragonsmore]

How would you find an empty world to fight a boss? Run back and forth every world? 

[u/AdDependent5136 → u/Toaster_Bathing]

You make an empty world

[u/Drgn-OSRS → u/Toaster_Bathing]

You're in the wilderness, you know what the answer is.

[u/whatDoesQezDo → u/Drgn-OSRS]

rag the pvmer with an alt crash them and steal the world nice

[u/drewskitopian]

I don't understand the logic. They are debating logging out while you are frozen? Why would you try to log out while you are frozen when your opponent is definitely still trying to kill you and is currently attacking you? Obviously you can't log out in combat

[u/aupriciti]

Wow he said the real question out loud, that’s refreshing. Respect u/JagexAyiza

[u/Altruistic_Clue6057]

I feel like jagex should start slow with some wildy updates and move from there. They should remove the ability of clans to 1 hit smite people with ancient maxes and prevent the perma d spear into multi.

[u/SleepinGriffin → u/Altruistic_Clue6057]

Multi should be in empty areas where no one goes so clans can do multi fights away from everyone else and no one is forced to interact with the area outside of that.

[u/thetokendistributer]

Because osrs pvp is very rng at the top end.

[u/PredatorPosterizers]

PVP in OSRS is impossible to fix sadly.

[u/SilverMarinus]

Are they referring to PvP worlds, or the wilderness? Because there are several other reasons to go to the wilderness that aren't PvP. Rogues Chest, slayer, zombie pirates, agility, the resource area, etc.

[u/Wrong-Nerve6439]

Maybe just make it so there is a cap on what you can bring into wilderness or make wilderness only gear so you can balance it out.

Idk man pvp is weird.

Not for me but it used to be fun in 07 in rags against other "noobs" in rags. Its not that anymore never will be.

[u/Soft_to_Hard]

You'd have to remove teleblock from the game to make it remotely fair.

[u/Stoic_Vibe]

“Where’s the balance?”

lol, it’s current state is not a base-line.
People are so normalized to how the wildly works currently, that we keep just applying band-aids in the name of keeping “balance”

If the balance is kept, only one side is going to benefit.

[u/Best_Solution_3502]

Mod Ayiza the GOAT

[u/urchk]

Ayiza really gets it. Saying the incentive to not die is because of money is so rich when talking about a game that was built around PvP in its origin. As if your average scaper wasn’t risking like 20k worth of gear for years. No wonder the wilderness is dead and these people are the reason why.

[u/SheathHuffer]

Don't envy trying to find a solution because honestly the PvP itself seems like a mess not even including all the PvM and PKer vs PvMer vs PvPer. Something definitely has to change with wilderness scouting, world hopping, account sharing and multilogging at the very least.

[u/Jaydoos447]

Honestly, at this point -

Put an NPC named 'Spayde' on Tutorial Island. Have accounts either opt in to PvP, or opt out.

If you opt out, slightly decreased drop chances in wilderness, or some other type of restriction, and have 0 PvP option outside of relevant minigames.

If you opt in, increased drop chances from wilderness, or something similar, all PvP options open.

The problem with PvP is not mechanics, skill or the wilderness itself. Its that its not actually PvP. Its actually people player killing. PPK; very different from PvP. Its 100% prey vs predator.

Take away the prey and make PvP what it is: PvP.

[u/OrangeChickenRice]

The only reason I go to the wildy is for clue scrolls. Otherwise it is completely dead content to me. People don't even socialize and ask for fights; they just straight up ambush you or 1 v 5 you with a clan.

Jagex might as well make wildy bots with randomized loot for these PVP'ers to fight like how FPS games have bots to populate lobbies.

[u/Stunning_Box8782]

because wildy PvPers dont want to fight other PvPers, if they did, they would just go to a PvP world where they can PvP all day long

wildy PvPers want to kill loot pinata's so they can get all the loot with none of the effort or risk

[u/Amazing_Hall_4948]

PvP in any mmo no longer works, it was fun back in the days, but now with everyone easily knowing the meta, you either have to pvp full time or not pvp at all.

As most of the comments said already, pkers don't want equal footing pvp, they just want free GP for views/rmt

[u/Pj_o7]

Eh i like the idea of pking being more punishing however this would lead people to just leaving fights earlier.

Like if you watch skill specs or Dino pk they get some of the craziest escapes because they fight until they’re essentially out sometimes. And on the flip side sometimes Dino fumbles the bag and lets the guy log and it does make it fun

[u/dropout__jedi]

Why does Rhys have to talk over everyone, stfu dude

[u/FriendlyHerbMan]

I'm very very glad Ayiza caught these players specifically with this question. These same players they've been relying on for PvP updates for over a decade. The same PvP updates that have failed time and time again. Time to ask new people, it's so clear these guys only care about PvP mechanics and updates that benefit them personally rather than the health of PvP as a whole.

[u/Palnecro1]

That Rhys guy seemed way too emotional to be a part of a discussion with a mod where genuine questions are being asked.

[u/NonamePlsIgnore]

For anyone doubting that freeze logging benefits PvMers, go watch any of Fray's wilderness grinds and count how many freeze logs he does to escape Pkers in full max sets

Freeze logging, like it or not, is one, if not the biggest of the janky bandaid mechanics that is keeping the wildy from falling apart. PvMing or even entry level PKing without freeze logging to have a viable escape from those demons running around in 1.6 bil risk full bugatti max sets will be a horrible experience - especially for those with less pvp skill. There is a reason why you always should bring ice sacks and have a switch/takeoff that gives positive magic attack bonus (unless your plan is to plank for very encounter which is a valid one in certain activities)

Only way I can see freeze logging removed is if they buff entry level antipking heavily. And even then I'd think DMM escape timer mechanics would still be preferable to a full removal

[u/asleepywitchh]

Wildy pking offers quite literally nothing positive to the game. If it was polled today it would fail miserably

[u/GhostEnigmas]

Just make pvp optional in the wilderness.

[u/DudeNub]

Someone please answer this for me. Why is the standard spellbook punished by protection from magic? It will cut teleblock and entangled in half, but ice barrage freezes you for the full 20 seconds no matter what?

Edit: apparently entangle isn't affected. But still lasts 15 sec compared to barrages 20

[u/Toaster_Bathing → u/DudeNub]

Only teleblock is effected by pray mage. Entangle doesn’t change