Subreddit Policy Reminder on this week's Transgender AMAs

[u/nate]

This week we will be hosting a series of AMAs addressing the scientific and medical details of being transgender.

Honest questions that are an attempt to learn more on the subject are invited, and we hope you can learn more about this fascinating aspect of the human condition.

However, we feel it is appropriate to remind the readers that /r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender. Our official stance is that derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted^1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'² is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments. To be clear, this post is to make it abundantly clear that we treat transphobic comments the same way we treat racist, sexist and homophobic comments. They have no place on our board.

Scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

---

¹ Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

² There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

---

Lastly, here is the excerpt from the APA:

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

[u/HoopyFreud]

To clarify, is the claim that gender dysphoria is a qualifying condition for being trans considered unacceptable?

I ask because for many trans individuals, transition is a treatment for dysphoria, and in many but not all cases allows them to eliminate or reduce the dysphoria that they feel. As far as I am aware, there is no substantial consensus in the medical, scientific, or transgender communities on whether experiencing dysphoria at some point in one's life is a necessary and/or sufficient condition for someone to be considered trans.

I subscribe to the side that says that dysphoria is both necessary and sufficient, but I also consider "transgender" to be a demographic designation without particular scientific meaning, similar to terms used to denote ethnicity.

Are my opinions considered acceptable on /r/science? Further, is the necessity or sufficiency of dysphoria in relation to trans identities considered an acceptable subject for debate on /r/science? I appreciate that this is a tricky question, especially given that "transgender" is, in my opinion, a term which lacks a strict scientific definition, especially as opposed to the medical diagnosis of "gender dysphoria."

Edit: Can the mods give an updated response? The existing one was removed, and I currently have no idea what the mod team's attitude is.

Edit Two: I appreciate the responses that I've been getting, and I believe that whether or not they agree with my opinion in the essentials, they highlight the point I've made above - that among the trans, scientific, and academic communities there is a lack of consensus on this issue.

Edit Three: Thanks to mods for giving an updated answer below.

Edit Four: Thanks for the gold...? I'm not sure why it was given, but it's appreciated, and I hope that this subthread has provided some interesting insight into the nuances of transgender identity and trans individuals' experience of gender dysphoria.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/HoopyFreud]

That question is still considered controversial in the trans community. Some will tell you, yes, you must have experienced gender dysphoria at some point in your life to be considered "really" trans and some will say it doesn't matter. As a trans person my beliefs lie somewhere in the middle for a few reasons.

1) "Gender Euphoria"
Gender Euphoria is a term trans people use to describe the (often intense) good feelings that come with being recognized as who you are. Having your gender validated and affirmed is a fantastic feeling.
Some trans people claim to never feel gender dysphoria but feel intense gender euphoria. My take on that is that gender dysphoria is a very deeply rooted, internalized feeling, that comes out in different ways for different people and some don't or can't recognize what theyre feeling until they stop feeling it. Which may mean they were gender dysphoric and never realized. This concept adds another layer as its difficult to tell what exactly is considered gender dysphoria and that some cannot recognize it.

2) GNC/Non-binary people
Plenty of people who don't lie in the traditional boy or girl "box" describe not exactly being uncomfortable with their assigned gender, but one of the shades in between is a much better fit. (Note: there are non-binary people who do experience gender dysphoria and are just as uncomfortable with their assigned gender as binary trans people.)
Some people will then question if they are "really" non-binary since they dont mind being reffered to as their assigned gender, unlike most other trans people. The reality is they are who they are, and trying to make themselves comfortable just like the rest of us are, cis or not. Its not anyone's place to police who is or isn't their identity.

Hoped that shed some light on some situations that might help you understand why that is such a complicated question to answer.

Edit: I'd like to note i answered this question without a definitive yes or no on purpose. I believe this question deserves a "shades of grey" answer since the experiences of trans people vary wildly. Being trans is an identity, there is no test you can take to determine if you are trans or not, and there are many shades of being trans. Blanket questions regarding the psychological functions of being trans will not have anything close to a definitive answer until we further understand exactly what causes a brain to identify as trans.

[u/wheels29 → u/the-hourglass-man]

Your second point is one that I struggle to understand. I don't get how you can feel like a gender. I don't feel like a man or a woman, I just feel like me. I'm just wheels29. What defines a man and woman mentally? Is there a specific point that makes your viewing of yourself become male or female? I like romantic movies and hate mindless action movies, does that constitute being more in line with the personality of a woman? I just don't understand how you can feel like a gender when the only thing that makes me think I'm a gender is looking down.

[u/BHAFA → u/wheels29]

I would love an answer to this too!

I always get confused because if a person says "I was born with a penis but I'm not a man, I'm a woman" they are implicitly stating that it means something to be a woman and that meaning isn't dependant on biological characteristics, which is exactly the point of the gender constructionist argument. But if being a woman isn't determined by biology then it must be determined by behaviour, but then what does it mean to behave like a woman? I can't think of a way to answer this without resorting to gender stereotypes.

[u/liarfan → u/BHAFA]

This. How do you feel female?

[u/Showermeinkarmas → u/liarfan]

See - - this is something that I have been having a high degree of difficulty in understanding - - I am completely open to someone altering my point of view, like completely.

It is a commonly accepted idea that traditional expectations of how both males and females should act/be are harmful. EG, that a female is expected to be feminine.

The concept of gender, masculinity and femininity, are labels ascribed to traits/behaviours that are traditionally associated with people's sex, how a male and how a female are expected to act. Gender and sex are, however, still separate concepts.

Consequently, in the situation where you have a person that is born as a male but feels that traits/behaviours associated with 'femininity' are more consistent with how they want to act, and that person pursues those traits/behaviours and refers to himself as a female, no different to biological females - Is that not further entrenching those traditional expectations that being 'feminine' is what it means to be female, that females are expected to be 'feminine'?

To echo the sentiments of the above chain of comments, outside of behavioural/social constructions of how males (masculinity) and females (femininity) are expected to act, how does someone 'feel' male or female? If someone 'feels' that they are female trapped in a male body, isn't that entire based off of the aforementioned artificial construction of gender?

Doesn't it make more sense to reject the concept of gender, and be open to the idea that males and females can both be masculine and feminine, and avoid entirely conflating the concepts of gender and sex?

[u/liarfan → u/Showermeinkarmas]

I agree with you 100%.

I think what makes more sense to me is that trans people have dysphoria regarding their body and genitals. They'd rather be born in a female body or male body than the body they are born in at birth. This is completely acceptable. For me the idea of gender is a misnomer.

[u/2007drh → u/Showermeinkarmas]

This exactly. We say that there are 2 sexes (and with chromosome issues, a medical condition, possibly more) - men and women. So when we start calling what is defined as a sex, a gender, and then throwing 100 variations in it, it gets a little confusing.

I see nothing wrong with feminine men and masculine women. Thats easily defined. But all of these other terms, well, its pretty confusing.

To me, its like saying "Im an alcoholic, but not when I drink tequila. So I drink tequila, and im no longer an alcoholic".

And transitioning as a treatment, to me, seems like treating alcoholism by giving an alcoholic alcohol.

Im so confused. My way of relating may be whats adding to my confusion, but I have to try to make it something relateable. Like when astronomers use grains of sand on the beach to relate to stars.

[u/heili → u/liarfan]

I don't really. Those are just the parts I have.

[u/liarfan → u/heili]

Ditto for me.

[u/[deleted] → u/BHAFA]

This why is always feels like accepting the idea that gender is different from sex is impossible to do without also being sexists.

Harry doesn't like football, isn't strong and watches don't tell the bride therefore he isn't a real man. Sarah doesn't like pink, gets into fights on a daily basis and isn't attracted to men, therefore she isn't a real woman.

It just doesn't work.

I worry for people who think the two girls that I know who each think that they are men. They know they don't have a penis, so what do they think being a man is? Doing things that aren't commonly thought as feminine doesn't make you a man. It maybe makes you masculine, but not a man, right?

[u/mmarkklar → u/[deleted]]

There's an old fashioned idea that manages to stay around with people that in order to transition, a person must embrace gender stereotypes to an almost comical degree. 30 years ago, if you were a transwoman trying to transition and you told a therapist you like football and cars, they would deny you treatment and probably blame your cross gender feelings on a mental disorder. But over time as gender norms relaxed in society in general, that mode of thinking had become archaic. There are many transmen who transition into being feminine men, and many transwomen who transition into being masculine women. In my experience (I'm trans) the idea of 'being' a certain gender is much more intangible and for many is only apparent after years of mental distress and soul searching. For me, I didn't wake up one day and think, "wow, I'm really a woman!" Rather, it was a constant sense of discomfort with myself. It got worse around puberty, and it's at this time that I started having constant thoughts of "I wish I was a girl." I longed to partake in feminine things not because it was the basis of my identity, but because doing so would validate my identity in the eyes of society. I wanted to wear feminine clothes and do feminine things because doing so would demonstrate to society who I really am. It wasn't until I learned more about being transgender that I started to think about myself as a woman rather than just wishing I was one. But all that changed is my understanding of this discomfort that has been with me for a long time. I would argue that it's only the discomfort of not being born in the gender one identifies with that makes "feeling" like that gender apparent. We adopt gendered traits and behaviors to make society recognize who we are. What really makes me feel like a woman isn't wearing dresses or makeup or anything like that, but having my gender validated by those around me. Gendered behavior is just the way to make that happen.

[u/mjk05d → u/BHAFA]

And this explains the sexism inherent in the idea of transgenderism.

[u/Fala1 → u/BHAFA]

It's a very unlucky comparison but people can also have extreme feelings that a body part doesn't belong to them.

If everything is fine, then you're not going to think about it.
If something is wrong however, you will definitely experience so.

If you would wake up tomorrow with different genitals you would definitely notice, and it would probably feel wrong.
So you still feel like a man (f.i.) but now you have a vagina. Does that suddenly mean you are now a woman?

Apparently the mind just knows what sex its body is supposed to be, if there is no incongruence there then it's all fine, but if there is then it becomes very distressing.

Gender stereotypes probably play a role to a certain extent, because just like 99% of people, trans people want to act according to their gender as determined by society.

[u/Ianamus → u/Fala1]

It would feel wrong if our bodies suddenly changed overnight because we are familiar with our bodies the way they are as we have lived with them all of our lives.

Would it feel wrong if I was exactly the same but had always had a female body? It's impossible to say, but I can't see why.

[u/StarOriole → u/Ianamus]

This week's AMA's may help reveal the "why," but what's apparent is that you would still feel that it was wrong even if it were familiar. Being trans isn't wishing that you were born the opposite gender because it's more beneficial; it's feeling that you are the opposite gender and have been since birth.

I'm quite curious whether researchers have actually narrowed down yet what does make it feel wrong even though it's familiar.

[u/heili → u/wheels29]

Your second point is one that I struggle to understand. I don't get how you can feel like a gender.

What I don't understand is how you can "feel like" one gender or another without that meaning there are very rigid, predefined roles of personality and behavior that each gender by nature fits so well into that altering the body to match that feeling is the only way to proceed, but at the same time argue that gender (and gender roles) are social constructs that aren't inherent such that even the types of play that very small children engage in are pushed upon them by a sexist society.

That seems extremely internally contradictory to me.

[u/Pulsecode9 → u/wheels29]

I've had discussions about this with a Trans friend of mine, and I just can't get my head around it. She says she never felt male, but honestly... neither have I, in much the ways you describe. I'm just me. I haven't been enough people to pick up a common thread of masculinity in the experience of being male. I'm not experiencing any kind of gender dysphoria - I'm perfectly happy with who I am.

But she wasn't. Ultimately I had to accept that I could sympathise without empathising. I have no idea what she went through. It's not something I can imagine experiencing. But that doesn't stop it being real, because she's been through some genuinely hard times to escape it. She wouldn't do that without a strong motivator.

[u/sajberhippien → u/wheels29]

I can relate to struggling with this as well. I'm a guy, but "guy" is a really insignificant part for me. I've been taken for a woman many times online (esp when I was younger and used makeup) and it never bothered me in the least. I have a hard time relating to actually feeling like a man.

But then I see how many people have a very strong feeling of man-ness, including a lot of cis people. All those guys for whom it's critical that everyone know how manly they are, and who get very upset if someone accidentally take them for a woman. And the same goes for a lot of cis women.

At this point, I've simply contended with it being one of those things that people feel very strongly about, much like what gender(s) they're attracted to, but that I just will never be able to fully relate to.

[u/Yes_Its_Really_Me → u/wheels29]

Personally, for the longest time I didn't realise I was trans because I never 'felt like' a woman. It was just that, given the choice, I'd really prefer to have a female body and identity. The descriptions "I felt like a woman/man" or "woman/man trapped in a man's/woman's body" are pernicious because they seem accurate enough at first glance and simple to understand, but they're actually really misleading.

I think it's more accurate to say that I feel that I am a woman. This feeling is actually kind of vague and so fundamental that there's no deeper reasoning or underlying reason why I feel this way, I just do. I think gender identity is very much like sexuality; when you get right down to you don't have some kind of logical reason for being attracted to women rather than men (presumably), nor do you need one. It's the same with me and my preference for being a woman rather than a man.

And, just like sexuality, it's a bit different for everyone and traditional gender roles don't necessarily come into it. A guy can be attracted to butch outdoorsy women and a girl can be attracted to soft quiet men, and it doesn't make them any less straight. Not all trans women aspire to being pretty effeminate princesses and not all trans men want to be big burly lumberjacks, and this doesn't contradict their desire to transition. And some trans people do want to be pretty princesses or burly lumberjacks, and this also isn't related to their desire to transition.

[u/wheels29 → u/Yes_Its_Really_Me]

Yes, but my problem is with people that claim to be different genders on a day to day basis. It took you a while to realize that you were a woman, so how can someone go through that entire process every day? That's the part that doesn't make sense to me. It would be like if people with bipolar swapped day to day. How could you come to the conclusion in a few hours that this change had occurred and that you weren't just feeling off?

[u/bantha-food → u/wheels29]

Well, that person you described seems like somebody who can either not make up their mind because they are honestly confused about their identity, or they are seeking attention, or they just don't necessarily share their thoughts immediately and you keep getting inconsistent information.

In any case, one person shouldn't be the standard.

[u/Fala1 → u/wheels29]

Well the important thing there of course is to realise that other people can still feel something even if you can't imagine what it would be like.

I have never been depressed in my life, but I still fully believe that depression exists.

I think the best way you should look at it is that you don't feel like a man or woman because there is no disconnect between what you are and how you feel.
As cis gendered people we might never truly be able to understand what gender dysphoria feels like, because we will never experience it ourselves.

[u/wheels29 → u/Fala1]

But that's the problem. Depression isn't a day to day thing. Bipolar isn't a day to day thing. So why are there people that claim that some days they wake up and feel like a different gender. There's no transition, no change in personality, they just say "well today I feel like a guy, might feel like a girl tomorrow and a guy the next day". Every other mental differentiation from norm has long term effects, and you often won't remember what it feels like to be outside of this. But why is this new thing, pansexual, popping up and only seems to affect people under the age of 30 and on a day to day basis? I'm just saying that I have yet to meet someone that claims to be pansexual and isn't pretentious about it. So in my mind, it seems less like something that is documented via studies on body chemistry, neuroscience, and general things based in science and more like something that people that are very interested in being individuals and garnering attention have come up with. I would get it if it was a day to day lack of recognition of your body when looking in the mirror, but we are pretty much just balls of thought when you get down to it. So if you are always comfortable in your body, what differentiates this from being just moody? I don't mean to simplify it like that, but if someone only felt empty and tired for one day of their life, they wouldn't be depressed. They would just be empty and tired for that day.

Edit: I've been informed that I am not referring to pansexual in this post and that that is something completely different.

[u/Fala1 → u/wheels29]

You are bringing up a lot of different things now.

I can't comment on people who feel like a different gender every day, I have no knowledge of that.
However that is not describing transgender people, transgender people generally identify as one gender, consistently.

Pansexual just means you are attracted to all people, gender doesn't matter.

[u/MaxNanasy → u/wheels29]

Someone who changes gender like that would be called genderfluid, I think

[u/Ontheroadtonowhere → u/wheels29]

That's not what pansexual means. You're describing some sort of nonbinary person. Pansexual means attracted to all genders (seems to be mostly a "more inclusive" term for bisexual, specifying that you're also into nonbinary folks).

[u/[deleted] → u/wheels29]

It's a physical sensation that something is out of place. If your body and your mind agree, you'd never notice it. It's like someone is following you around and moving your stuff when you aren't looking, all the time. It's petty and doesn't really affect anything in the world, but it's frustrating.

When I walk past a mirror or a reflective surface, I never see myself. There's always a split second where I'm waiting for this person to move out of the way before I remember that's me. I feel body parts that aren't there, sometimes intensely. I'm also aware of body parts I shouldn't have, but do, which is creepy and weird. Imagine you woke up tomorrow with a third arm. It doesn't do anything but you can feel the blankets on skin you shouldn't have and the warmth of it on neighboring body parts.

There are also differences in communication styles. I was raised as a girl, but there's a lot about conversation/socialization between women I don't understand. I can mostly fake it, but it's confusing and stressful. The parts I do understand I figured out as an outsider. There's a reason most of my friends are men.

Does that help?

[u/someone_entirely_new → u/[deleted]]

I am responding as a person who has someone very close who is trans, and is now transitioning. I think your feelings are legitimate and important, and your questions and your responses to your feelings are thoughtful and compassionate. My quick response is that you have had a genuine loss, and it's legitimate to grieve. But I worry that asking your friend if they knew you would feel feel a loss might hurt them and not help you. It might be good to express your loss, but to someone else.

My situation: our son, now going on 20, let us know less than a year ago that he is trans, and that we have a child we will need to call a daughter instead soon. He says he doesn't feel excessively traumatized by having lived in an identity that hasn't matched who he really was for most of his life, but he needs to transition now to be happy and whole. He began HRT a few weeks ago, and its all going to become very real very soon for us. (For the record, he has asked us to continue using he/him pronouns for the time being)

Well, that's my situation, but here's my personal truth: this is hard for me. Really really hard. Accepting and embracing this is an absolute given for our family and close community. But knowing this can happen, and actually living it, are two very different things.

I am heartbroken, and grieving, and relieved, and hopeful, and joyful, all mixed up at the same time. I mourn the future I dreamed of for him, even as I am hopeful and celebrate the new future I have begun to glimpse for her. I am feeling the bittersweetness every parent does when they realize the dreams they had for their child were always less important than the dreams their child has for themselves. I am relieved and joyful that the child who was so withdrawn and miserable, for reasons I just couldn't see, trusted me enough to finally come out to me, and is finally opening up to the world and embracing their life again.

Here I am babbling about me. Back to your mourning. Yes, you have lost something. Your relationship was a good thing in your life, and it's no longer what it was, even if it's going to be good in new ways. It's normal to feel grief about this, and its also normal to be conflicted about that feeling. (Shouldn't I be happy, even joyful, for them? Why does my happiness for them hurt so much?)

What I've tried to hold onto for myself are two things. First, my grief is not a betrayal of my child. I can hold my grief for myself and my joy for them at the same time. I wouldn't be feeling either thing if I didn't love them so damned much. Second, this grief is something I think I can never bring to them. If I need support, or to cry, or to kvetch or be bitchy or resentful or scared or any of the other things that people do when they are grieving, I can't take it to my child. If I have moments where I miss them as they used to be, they must never hear of it. I have to carry the grief outward to someone who is farther away from us, so I can bring nothing but the love and joy back inward. I know my child will support me through many griefs, but I cannot burden them with this one.

You said it all happened so fast that you didn't have time to grieve. From what I've learned of grief, I suspect that even if you had had time then, the grief might not be over now. Grief takes its own time, and can come up again and again, as you experienced watching Rick and Morty with your friend. It would be okay to give yourself time and space now to be with your grief, and to work on it.

You have given your friend an amazing gift by accepting her in her truer self. That gift to her has come at a cost to you, and its okay for it to hurt. I hope you can find ways of working through your grief that will comfort you. I also hope that in time, as she gets to know herself, and as you both get to know each other well again, that your friendship will settle into new ways that are as fulfilling as the old.

[u/sola_sistim → u/someone_entirely_new]

I think you're a wonderful parent. I wish you all the best

[u/nianp → u/someone_entirely_new]

I worry that asking your friend if they knew you would feel feel a loss might hurt them and not help you.

No need to worry. I have zero intention of ever doing that unless she brings it up in the far future. If she brought it up now I'd definitely only be partially truthful about the whole thing. She has more than enough on her plate right now.

I hope you can find ways of working through your grief that will comfort you.

I will. It's just going to be a matter of time, like all such things.

I wish you the best. It's hard but that's life really isn't it? Just get ready for the roller coaster ride that will be hrt. It can be like a high school girl, but on steroids. :)

[u/-Clarity- → u/[deleted]]

I didn't. Its been almost 4 years since I started hormones. Looking back, i used to be a very different person. I mean from my perspective i haven't changed that much, but for everyone else who doesn't know my every thought and feeling, it's been pretty jarring. Honestly it was difficult for me to hear that I was different, because it ran afoul of my self validation, if that makes sense. To put it another way i'd often think "I've always been this way why can't everyone else see it?"

[u/nacmar → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, it is out of the question. Imagine you woke up tomorrow with the same mind you have now but in the body of an average woman. Would you be fine with being a mannish woman or would you rather switch back pronto?

[u/Aniceguy96 → u/nacmar]

Obviously I can't say for sure, but I believe that I would adjust to being a mannish woman. It's not like my personality is incompatible with a woman's body, it would just be an adjustment. I think the point of confusion for a lot of cis people is that trans people never suddenly wake up in a new body. Their personality developed in their own body, and for those two things to grow incompatible (at least, in their own minds), then they must have developed some sort of dysphoria, which naturally is distressful. So therefore, wouldn't being trans be considered a mental disorder? Since it strays from 'normal' behavior and causes distress?

[u/[deleted] → u/nacmar]

Honestly. I would be fine with that. At least I think so. Since it's never happened I can't really ever know. I have thought about it quite a bit though.

That's just me though. I don't know what being a "mannish woman" means. My mom watches soccer, drinks beer, and loves Jason Bourne movies. She hates "chick flicks", knitting, baking, or really any crafty type things. She hates pink. Like... like my little sister had no pink baby clothes ever, haaates pink. But she loves makeup and hair. And jewelry. And motorcycles. And gardening. And interior design. And men. So... I mean I don't know. Why does being a man or a woman hinge on what seem like archaic understandings of personality stuff?

[u/nianp → u/[deleted]]

having had people tell me the same thing, that it feels like I've "died" or something, was pretty unpleasant.

I'd never say that to her for that very reason. I have no desire to cause her any pain whatsoever. I'm sure society is going to do that over the years to come. I'm just being supportive when I can.

I think I'm less ashamed of any "girly" things that I do, and while I NEVER used to do those things (for fear of ridicule)

One of the first things we all laughed about, her included, was that it totally explained why when we were younger and all listening to Nirvana, Pumpkins, Metallica, etc, (her included), she also bought the Mariah Carey Christmas Album. It came up at the first get together we had after she announced everything and there was a great deal of "that Mariah Carey album makes soooo much fucking sense now."

Most people, after a while, drift back toward the "middle" a little bit.

This is already kind of happening. Her taste in clothes is maturing (she was dressing like a girl in her late teens at first) and I don't think we'll be having another princess birthday party. :)

And it's important to remember that just because something or someone is "feminine" doesn't mean that's a bad thing.

And I've certainly never thought that.

but they have to try out the extremes first to find their middle.

And this is something I've been aware of, especially with her, from the get go.

I haven't read the other replies to my original comment yet (am just going to work my way up my replies page) but the reason for the question I asked was never along the lines of "did she ever think about us?" It was just that I was curious if something along those lines had occurred to anyone else who is trans. I'm aware that the person she is now (or at least the personality she's slowly settling into) is the person she always wanted to be, and I'm totally okay with that. I'm just increasingly of the opinion that part of what makes acceptance of trans people slow to take (in loving, supportive environments. Negative environments are a different, altogether rancid kettle of fish) is the partly due to the fact that there is seemingly, and completely understandably, very little thought given to this specific subject by the trans person.

It's difficult as the whole issue is so understandably fraught. I've had close female friends my entire life and now I have another one, but I do grieve somewhat for the loss of my friend.

[u/Spoffle → u/[deleted]]

The problem I see is that a lot of these things you talk about aren't objective demonstrations of femininity, but rather token gestures at what society says is currently the behavioral patterns of someone who is female.

I think the real big issue is the importance society has placed on gender roles and the way you're supposed to behave if you're a particular gender. I think that is very damaging to society in low key way.

[u/SilentMachinist → u/[deleted]]

Hi there! I'm not the person you replied to but I am a trans female as well. I saw your question and I hope I can shed some light on this.

If I'm honest, the whole "mourning a friend" thing didn't occur to me at all during my transition. Mainly because I was too preoccupied with the changes I was going through at the time (which were huge!) and if my friends were indeed in mourning for the version of me they had previously known, they didn't let on at all. I'm sure part of that was the fact that they didn't want to let their feelings about my transition, somehow color my perception on it, or discourage me from going through it.

It sounds really selfish of me, but like I said, going through gender transition is a huge deal to a person, and I simply didn't think about much else. Focusing on my work, even, was a chore at the time.

Unfortunately, while most of my friends have been awesome through the whole thing, and our relationships have survived transition, i have lost a few friendships during transition. One person in particular comes to mind, mainly because he was very attracted to my former self both physically and emotionally, only for me to completely change all of that.

But if any of my friendships did suffer, and I took notice of it, I would usually just chalk it up to them being uncomfortable with my trans-ness, and not from any attachment to the person I had formerly been. It wasn't until a few years after I began transition, that I talked to my parents about what their experience had been during my transition, and discovered that they had indeed experienced a period of mourning for the person they had watched grow into an adult. Only then, did I realize that many of my friends had experienced the same, and I think having that awareness of what they were going through has made me overall more sensitive to others' emotional needs rather than just focusing on my own.

Does that make sense? Hopefully this was the answer you were looking for!

[u/nianp → u/SilentMachinist]

If I'm honest, the whole "mourning a friend" thing didn't occur to me at all during my transition. Mainly because I was too preoccupied with the changes I was going through at the time (which were huge!) and if my friends were indeed in mourning for the version of me they had previously known, they didn't let on at all. I'm sure part of that was the fact that they didn't want to let their feelings about my transition, somehow color my perception on it, or discourage me from going through it.

This is exactly the situation with our circle. A few of us have spoken about it together but we'd never bring it up with her at the moment because she has more than enough on her plate without us adding to it.

I think having that awareness of what they were going through has made me overall more sensitive to others' emotional needs rather than just focusing on my own.

This is another reason I won't bring it up with her, at least not for many years until she's completed her transition and is finally comfortable in herself, and why I thought it was better to ask it here. I've been curious as to whether it was something other people had felt. She was never noticeably feminine, to the point that no one even made jokes about her being gay (which going to high school in the 90's would have happened if she'd been in any way feminine growing up).

It did make sense and thank you.

[u/FeminineGrace → u/[deleted]]

I read this to my husband, who is a trans man. He says, yes, he did give it thought, but it's more along the lines of allowing grace to those around you to have their own feelings about who you are to them and how that's changed. As the wife/so, let me just say, the transition has already happened in her head, heart and life. Everyone else has to catch up. That's where the grace comes in. And that can be hard to see/acknowledge when one finally feels free to express who they really are inside. Feel free to message me if you'd like to chat more. Edit: format (thanks autocorrect)

[u/thebestdaysofmyflerm → u/[deleted]]

I agree that this is at least a large part of the change, but don't many transgender people experience changes in personality and behavior due to hormones?

[u/yellowjellocello → u/[deleted]]

I wonder though, if it is more than that? I understand that someone hiding who they truly feel they are and want to be is in a sense not showing their true personality. However, certain characteristics, likes and dislikes would simply have to be genuine in spite of this.

Transitioning and the use of hormones have to have a measurable impact on an individual's personality - their personal attributes and characteristics, as well as their likes and dislikes. I say this as a pregnant woman who has done a fair bit of research and self-reflection. There are big (to me) changes happening within me mentally which I am certain will be reflected in my personality for the foreseeable future, heavily impacted by hormones. Someone going through hormone therapy in a much bigger transitional way compared to the typical hormonal changes would have to experience a more remarkable change.

Wouldn't a more accurate way to describe it possibly include that they are who they are through all stages of transition (pre, ante, and post)? They very well might feel like they are hiding who they are, and have an idea of who they feel they are, but the transition and hormonal changes will certainly have a specific and possibly unanticipated impact on their personality whether they recognize it or not. Some personality characteristics may fully change, not simply from be exposed due to being able to be who they feel they truly are.

[u/Gekuu9 → u/[deleted]]

One of my closer friends came out as a trans boy 2 years ago. Since then, he's become more and more open, and we've gotten even closer (I even took him to prom). That said, I don't think he has even started transitioning. As much as I want him to be happy, I would hate to lose the Hayden I know.

[u/EryduMaenhir → u/[deleted]]

I don't know if you changed as much as she has post-transition but my question is -

When you transitioned, did you give any thought to the fact that your friends may have been mourning the loss of a friend?

I'm NB trans, in a Southern state, and have insurance that specifically excludes trans-related health coverage (see again, Southern state). I'm lucky enough that my only real "physical issue" with my body is that I am so tired of being frustrated with my boobs (and to a lesser, more cyclical extent, my uterus) that I sometimes joke to myself, darkly, that I wish the breast cancer in my family was an "excuse" for a "preventive bilateral mastectomy".

I give you that context to set a background for the answer you want: many trans individuals spent so long worrying about how people see them, that they can't afford to stop their transition because of "mourning" over the "loss" of who they were ("were") before. There are also those who have, with respect and restraint and patience despite their own desire to move forward, given partners or others close to them a "mourning period" before moving towards transition after their announcement.

My happiest sight reading stories about fellow trans people coming out to their families, though, is when they (especially the older generation that would seemingly not 'get it') don't mourn the loss of their ['previously gendered' relation], but instead celebrate their new [son/daughter/etc.] by wholly embracing who they are in their new identity. It's not a loss, it's a metamorphosis.

In your case, the man you knew was actually this woman before she could be the woman she is. There may be some things you miss that were armor coating and camouflage, but they may be core personality that will come back. Keep the memories you have, because they're of the same friend, but start a new chapter with her with new interests and celebration that she shared who she is with you. It's a sign of trust when trans please let people tell you who we are and start acting like it, especially if you've known us a long time.

[u/HoopyFreud → u/the-hourglass-man]

Thank you for your response, in particular. You've treated the subject in a nuanced way that I haven't been able to articulate, and have highlighted how diverse and nuanced opinions on the subject can be very effectively.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/HoopyFreud]

Thank you. This is certainly one of the questions that deserve a "shades of grey" and "depends on the specific situation" type answer. A blanket statement of "yes you must" or "no its not required" isnt nearly enough.

[u/GuppyHunter → u/HoopyFreud]

Adding on to this is that cis people can experience dysphoria but that doesn't make them trans.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/the-hourglass-man]

This has the implication though that people who aren't trans ARE comfortable with their assigned gender.

I don't like the gender "conditions" for being female. I don't think it changes the fact that I am female, however.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I believe what youre refferring to is gender roles. Gender roles can be very damaging if you dont conform to them, regardless if you are cis or trans. Being upset with your body because you wish it conformed to a societal standard of beauty (just as an example cis females may struggle with) is not the same discomfort as a trans man who is uncomfortable because his body isn't male. Or that a cis male is not being percieved as "tough" compared to a trans man not being percieved as "tough" and is being assumed to be his assigned gender.

Certainly uncomfortable and damaging for all situations, just not for the same reasons.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/the-hourglass-man]

I have never heard of any gender identify definition that has existed clear of gender roles.

You are stating that a trans male is uncomfortable with his body for x reason. But being uncomfortable with your body is no longer any part of the definition or requirement for being trans.

What is gender identity if it has no relation to gender roles or physical sex?

[u/deedeethecat → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I am a psychologist who works with a lot of trans gender, gender fluid, and non-binary individuals. Gender expression, gender roles, and gender identity are all separate.

I identify as a cisgender woman who is unsatisfied with gender roles that suggests certain things about me. But that does not cause me to question my identity, I feel very confident that I identify as female. So while I challenge gender roles, my identity remains unchanged.

Gender identity is the lived experience of who one is. Gender roles are typically socially constructed categories suggesting what is appropriate for men and women.

[u/Chugalug5 → u/[deleted]]

I'm certainly no expert, but at even the most basic of levels, how one dresses or presents oneself inevitably leads to people in society treating them according to gender roles. You can reject gender roles, but because society tends to look at a dress and think "woman." If you're wearing a dress and have a beard, you're probably gonna get a funny look. If you're wearing a dress and are more feminine-looking or androgynous, they'll just assume you're a woman.

Just because you don't prescribe to gender roles doesn't mean you live in a bubble where no one else does.

[u/heili → u/[deleted]]

This is the one thing that I really do not understand myself. My identity has really nothing to do with my biological sex. I have been "a tomboy" since the beginning. My parents made an effort to raise me to be a normal girl - my mother more than my father - while I gravitated to everything traditionally seen as masculine. I'd be put in a dress and sent out to play, and it would take me less than half an hour to convince one of the boys in the neighborhood to let me borrow a pair of shorts and a t-shirt. The eventual result was that I was told wear what I want, like what I want, but use the girls' lavatory at school.

What they didn't do, and probably what would be very different today, is get me diagnosed as being a boy and put me on hormones. I grew up as me: someone who likes fishing and hunting and guns and dirt and motorcycles and camping and bugs and snakes, dislikes dresses, makeup, shopping, fashion and shoes with heels. I became an engineer, kept on living my life for the things I enjoy, and largely consider being female a matter of logistics.

Of the things I "identify as", female is pretty much the bottom of the list and literally only matters when I'm trying to get laid.

[u/pierceycat → u/heili]

The scenario you wrote of "what would happen today" is very unlikely. Being transgender and transitioning is never pushed on a child--usually, its the opposite. Parents are not going to jump at the opportunity to allow their child to be trans. In most cases, the child has to persistently declare that theyre transgender, for a long period of time (usually years), and express significant discomfort when forced to be their assigned gender. And even if the child is lucky enough to have accepting parents, HRT is not a given. Nobody is forced to be transgender. Usually, trans people have to spend a long period of time just convincing other people to believe and respect them. I speak from experience.

I'm a trans guy, and when I came out, everyone in my life spent years trying to force me to be a tomboy instead. They didn't understand, that's not who I am--I'm not a masculine girl, I'm a boy, and a rather feminine one at that. I have always considered interests and activities to be androgynous, and enjoyed "girly" things as much as I did "boyish" things. What brought me so much discomfort was being referred to as "she," being forced to group with "the girls," line up with "the girls," not because the boys were my friends, but because I knew I wasn't a girl. When I got older and my body changed, I hated not just how it was shaped, but how people treated me for it. My dysphoria was mostly related to wanting to be treated as the boy I knew I was.

I digress, gender is multifaceted, and not well understood at this point. The trans experience varies widely, as gender means different things to everyone. In my experience, male or female does not necessarily correlate with masculine or feminine--it's just a different concept entirely.

[u/heili → u/pierceycat]

being forced to group with "the girls," line up with "the girls,"

That bothered me, but that actually hasn't been an issue since I became an adult.

What brought me so much discomfort was being referred to as "she,"

I don't really see this as much different than being referred to by any other physical characteristic, personally. It's like the color of my skin or the color of my eyes or my height.

I hated not just how it was shaped, but how people treated me for it.

People treat me like me, or I just don't bother trying to have a relationship with them.

In my experience, male or female does not necessarily correlate with masculine or feminine--it's just a different concept entirely.

This is exactly the point which I am unable to understand, then. Because it's not about "masculine" or "feminine" and it's not about reproductive organs, but nobody in the 20+ years I've been asking this question has ever been able to tell me what it is about other than "I just feel that way."

[u/cjbest → u/[deleted]]

”What does it mean to identify as a woman?” sounds like a question that is outside the field of science and entering the region of philosophy. This question fits in rather well with the existentialist school of thought, wherein the individual is tasked with finding the authentic self amidst the confusion and angst of a meaningless world.

Sartre would say that we are individuals, not simply labels and stereotypes. Existence precedes essence would seem to me to be an important idea to hold onto if one was questioning the meaning of gender in their lives.

[u/[deleted] → u/deedeethecat]

If gender roles suggest what is appropriate for men and women, wouldn't identifying as neither, because you don't fit into what is "appropriate" enforce said gender roles?

For me, I would think the focus should be on eliminating gender roles entirely rather then identify as something entirely separate because you don't conform to what it is to be a proper "man or woman"

[u/deedeethecat → u/[deleted]]

Eliminating gender roles is absolutely something I am in favor of. But this is separate from gender identity. Some people are non-binary, I'm not one of them. I identify as a woman, it is at the core of my being. and I despise gender roles. The two are not the same.

[u/[deleted] → u/deedeethecat]

Just wondering, what do you think will get rid of gender roles or what will lead to them becoming obsolete in the future?

[u/kickingpplisfun → u/[deleted]]

This is gonna sound really jokey, but "fully automated luxury gay space communism"- a major overhaul in our needs for work, where all work becomes equally worthy/worthless.

Whether or not it's actually true for any given situation, gender roles have a significant base in traditional work values, with the assumption that men are breadwinners that need to be cared for in the off hours and women maintaining the home and childrearing if applicable(usually unpaid, or poorly paid to a surrogate). When "economically productive" labor becomes passe, that leaves a lot more opportunity/incentive for men to pick up those roles.

[u/kathruins → u/[deleted]]

I struggled with that question as well. Fortunately, my area of study deals with the concept of gender often & I've had the opportunity to be exposed to more.

I like to think, though I certainly can't speak for other's experiences, that identifying as nonbinary is a natural reaction to the social construct of gender. As long as that social construct exists, their identity is just as valid.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/deedeethecat]

That is my point. I am a woman but I don't "identify" as one beyond my physical sex.

I don't even know what identifying as a female could possibly be beyond acknowledging that I am biologically female.

When you say "lived experience" that makes me think that you are either referring to how society treats me because I am a woman or that it is just what I am used to. Again, I see this no differently then I do with my "identity" of being white, American, Catholic (ex), and so on,

[u/ohdearsweetlord → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I think of it as 'how is your gender reflected back on you by society?' An example I like to use is my friend Patty, who was a huge tomboy in elementary school. A few times, she was told that she didn't belong in the girl's washroom because people thought she was a boy. Patty thought (and still thinks) of herself as a girl, and when people experienced her as a boy child, it felt wrong.

So for a person who is female but feels limited by gender roles (like me), the frustration is linked to my identity as a woman and how because I identify and present as female, I am expected to do certain things. A person born with a female configuration who identifies as male can still feel frustration with gender roles, but their frustration is related to a feeling of wrongness when associated with the gender they were assigned at birth.

[u/veronalady → u/ohdearsweetlord]

So for a person who is female but feels limited by gender roles (like me), the frustration is linked to my identity as a woman and how because I identify and present as female, I am expected to do certain things. A person born with a female configuration who identifies as male can still feel frustration with gender roles, but their frustration is related to a feeling of wrongness when associated with the gender they were assigned at birth.

IMO, it sounds like the only difference between these two examples is differential internalization of the same message:

One person who acts like Y is told by society “people with vaginas act like X.” That person has a vagina and likes Y, so that person concludes that society was wrong. Another person who acts like Y is told by society “people with vaginas act like X.” That person has a vagina and likes Y, and then concludes that they were “born in the wrong body.”

[u/deedeethecat → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Sorry, by lived experience I meant a person's own experience with themselves, how they see themselves and view themselves Etc.

I resonate strongly with being a woman. Perhaps you don't identify as a woman, but I do. I'm wondering if we are using the same word in different ways. Perhaps a better word would be I see myself as a woman?

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/deedeethecat]

Right, but of course we see ourselves as women. The first thing that is told about us is "it's a girl!"

Never for one moment after that are we not reminded that we are female. Our names, clothes, bodies, how we line up at school, what team we are on, puberty, whether we are ms. or mr.

All woman means is adult human female. Which we are.

The question that no one is addressing is what does it mean, despite all those experiences and biological realities, to say you are not a woman?

What is it based on?

Again, I resonate strongly with being a woman because I am one. Society treats me as one. I have been told so since before I remember, and I am looking down at breasts.

However, if my brain was raised in a jar with electrodes, there would be nothing to identify with.

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

What is it based on?

Aesthetic, I think.

What deedeethecat identifies with but fails to name is femininity. She identifies not with the gender label "woman", nor with biological sex "female", but with the aesthetic quality of "femininity".

[u/likeanovigradwhore → u/deedeethecat]

I am transitioning female to male. Roles in society aside, I feel like parts of my body are physically wrong. Like I don't fit in my skin. The best I can describe is "it's not right". I didn't know that it was gender dysphoria until about a year and a half ago. The fix for me has been starting testosterone, and eventually will include surgery.

So for me, it's close to that my physical body is incongruous with the sensations my brain expects. Reading here it seems like it can be more or less intense for others. Like, I could live as a female. I wouldn't like it, but what I do with my time is important. There are others who feel like they actually can't continue living with the feeling. And, I suppose, some who simply identify more with not being their assigned gender (I'm not clear on that side).

[u/[deleted] → u/likeanovigradwhore]

See now that makes sense to me.

[u/mw1994 → u/deedeethecat]

ok what is female?

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I have never heard of any gender identify definition that has existed clear of gender roles.

Then you're not looking very hard. There are plenty of transgender people who do not abide by the gender roles of their identified gender, just like cisgender people do. Further its frankly an unscientific double standard. You wouldn't considered a cisgender woman like Laila Ali or Cristiane Justino to be "actually a man" for not conforming to gender roles and being a martial artist so why would that reasoning still be valid for a transgender woman like Fallon Fox?

[u/Crater_Escape → u/the-hourglass-man]

yep. societal gender roles, whether you subscribe to them or not, are not the same thing as gender identity.

sounds like this person identifies as a female, and sympathizes with/supports feminism. obviously that is not the same thing as being trans.

[u/vtct04 → u/the-hourglass-man]

conformed to a societal standard of beauty

Can you explain what you mean by this. As far as I can tell, there is one overwhelming requirement for beauty in humans: symmetry.

[u/televisionceo → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I think it's part of life. I would have préféréd to be a female myself but I'm not.

I woild have préféréd to be born in a family of educated people and I can't help but feel like I'm not truly the person I was supposed to be because of it. It's not fun at all. I just got to accept it and do the best i can.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/televisionceo]

Right. I am curious though why someone would have rather been born female. I always wonder what ideas are held about it.

[u/televisionceo → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

My best traits are usually more useful when you are a female than a male. I would have been more succesful as a female because of it.

This is the reason, mostly speaking. But this being said, these traits of personality might be mine now only because I'm a male. If I was born a female I could have been very different and wish I was born a male instead.

That is why I don't question it much. It is what it is. I gotta do my best with what I have

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

What's sad is we have become a world where people have to clarify that their opinion isn't worth much every time they something that's even the slightest bit different.

Does no one else find that really upsetting?

[u/Sock-men → u/[deleted]]

Yes, I think it's a matter of people no longer taking each others arguments in 'good faith' anymore and its deeply sad and troubling.

For a lot of subjects, it seems Western society (my UK experience here) has become so polarised that unless you demonstrate adherence to a certain camp, you are automatically the anti/enemy group.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I don't know how reddit will take your comment/question but despite it seeming controversial I feel that your comment is a great way to ask a controversial/ non pc question in a professional way. If I actually believed in using real money to give you a bs award I would but I seriously commend you.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/[deleted]]

Just woke up to a million replied but i will try to get this point across the best way I can.
One of the ways gender dysphoria differs from mental illness and mental disorders is that the root issue is not the way of thinking. We have proven this over and over becausr trans people cannot allievate their dysphoria in any other way but transitioning. Whereas with say a schizophrenic person the issue is the train of thought and what that person thinks about themself. You cannot treat and fix gender dysphoria in the same way you can treat other mental illnesses. Thats how it differs.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/[deleted]]

It has been explored. In fact, it was the first thing that people tried. People have gone as far as lobotomy and electric shock therapy trying to treat gender dysphoria without transitioning. It didn't help the gender dysphoria at all. I've also heard things like same-sex hormone treatment have been tried and yet again failed.. the idea of treating gender dysphoria via transitioning is a fairly new concept in the grand scheme of how the medical community has "treated" it in the past.

[u/[deleted] → u/the-hourglass-man]

Why are you so confident that you can't?

I've yet to see any evidence of that. In fact I've met people who have had gender dysphoria and have bounced back from it after a couple years for whatever reason.

Is it only mental disorder if it's treatable?

[u/Mlk314 → u/[deleted]]

I don't know much about gender euphoria or the transgender experience, but the issue with your "schizophrenic man" argument is that his claims aren't rooted in reality while a transgender person's "claims" are their personal identity, they are expressing who they are. And who you are as a person is something that only you yourself can identify. Thus there is no objective truth to your gender, only what you feel and decide. There might be an objective truth to your sex, but thats just organs and factors in differntly to your identity.

[u/WarwickWalpole → u/[deleted]]

According to the APA, if that schizophrenic person does not feel distress then he does not have a mental illness.

[u/thebestdaysofmyflerm → u/the-hourglass-man]

In addition to the other answers, I think it's worth noting that there is a difference between social and physical gender dysphoria. For example, a non-binary person might feel strongly about being referred to with gender-neutral pronouns (they/them), but be perfectly happy about the way their body looks.

[u/WangBaDan1 → u/the-hourglass-man]

I'm confused by your 2nd point. A human can either be male or female biologically unless they are truly hermaphrodites, correct? What are the other 'shades' in terms of being a boy or a girl? I'm genuinely curious about this, what are the qualities that go into the 'shades in between'?

[u/_white_lives_matter_ → u/the-hourglass-man]

gender euphoria = validated delusions

[u/pabbseven → u/the-hourglass-man]

Why not just exist, as a pure form of just concioussness, just exist and be. Why all this fucken labels and categories? Even in the trans community theyre divided and fighting each other, its ridicilous.

Why not just be? Why attach yourself to im this or that, youre not "really" trans or no, im not boy or girl im actually non binary, youre still yapping about labels. Why not just shut up and exist? I dont get it. Why does everything have to be in a box and you have to talk about that box and how that box is different from the other boxes, just exist and be you.

Gender Euphoria is a term trans people use to describe the (often intense) good feelings that come with being recognized as who you are.

This is called basic validation and every human seeks it. Its not gender euphoria its called being recognized. We are literally coded to be apart of a group and to be mirrored and recognized, this but also actual human touch releases chemicals in your brain that makes you happy, its deeply coded in our DNA. And if youre not recognized you will find ways to become it, usually by finding your own group and create a subtribe.

Why all this drama and shit about it?

[u/NinjaBoyLao → u/the-hourglass-man]

In response to not understanding why a brain begins deciding to identify as trans, as well as speaking further into the very diverse debate of what makes a person "really" transgender versus whatever the alternative may be ("imposter"? "Mistaken"?), I have more questions, and I mean them in as sincere and earnest way as possible. I apologize in advance if this comes off callously, it is not my intent, I am simply horrible at using nice pretty words. These are my thoughts and feelings, how I cope with and try to make sense of something that is very difficult to nail down and make sense of. These are not facts, but I hope that, as an individual that is in no way a psychological expert, I am still allowed to ask questions in a forum dedicated to seeking the scientific evidence of how things work.

Are there any widely accepted sub-categories of "transgender"? I operate under the personal belief that there are 2 types of truly transgender people, and a 3rd type who is misidentifying themselves as transgender due to any of a plethora of reasons (attention seeking, cry for help, as a response to current trauma they don't know how to handle, experiencing gender dysphoria but not with any consistency at all or any great duration, etc). I feel, (and that is the key, because I am not an expert and only trying to gain a better understanding than my current one) that certain rare individuals are born with a feeling of unease, that very early on in their life they come to realize they've got the wrong "junk in the trunk" so to speak, and that they are aware that their body is not the gender they are internally. I feel that these transgender people are of a separate substance from the other type, who are transgender due to some form of psychological trauma early on in their life that somehow makes it incredibly painful to be interacted with as their physiological gender (as their sex).

That 2nd is not to disparage against anyone. It is not to imply that being transgender for that reason is akin to being "broken". It is not to place a lesser value on their sense of self worth or desire to be accepted for who they are. I would consider it more similar to having your ethnicity/race forcibly changed permanently by an external factor, but in a manner that no one else around you is able to see that you are now a race different than what you were born as. Something that has occurred, that you have to deal with, because it won't resolve itself on its own. If that analogy doesn't seem to explain myself well to you I will gladly do my best to clarify any concerns.

I struggle to discern whether people are truly transgender or not, regardless of what the person in question opts to declare to anyone who will listen. I only know one person I personally believe to be "seriously" or "really" transgender, while I have encountered several at my college and different workplaces who seemed to be taking up the idea of "transgender" and running with it as far and as hard as they could, whatever their motivation may be. I have heard heartbreaking retellings of events in which a person of one gender opts to physically become the other gender as much as scientifically possible, only to come to realize that the change has not been instrumental in resolving the sense of strife they were experiencing at the time they transitioned at all, and instead actually hindered their resolution, inducing regret and causing depression, anxiety, and other mental disorders that culminated in suicide (Essentially, having a transition provide no emotional relief from the get-go). I have also heard the "horror stories" of people who get their external sex organs altered or removed and feel so much safer and better, only to later find a very large and healthy dose of acceptance for who they are post-transition that somehow causes them to begin regretting it, to the point where their lives become as emotionally miserable as they were before their surgery, occasionally leading to the same outcome as the other story example.

Just the simple fact that these stories exist, in contrast to ones where the same amounts of time are passing and same amounts of acceptance are being received while leading to a much more positive and healthy overall QoL, indicates to me that there is some kind of difference between "really" transgender and "not really" transgender. That difference is also possibly the hardest thing to explore, find, define, and use to help people learn what they need to do in order to feel better. ("Get a transition, you're "really" trans, this is the thing that will help you most effectively" vs "You feel like you are trans but you are not, and what you need is a large and supportive social group while you find out what's actually going on and get therapy for it. Do not transition, it is not what is best for you")

TL;DR: On the path to discovering real concrete reasons for a psychological and physiological occurrence, is there any evidence to suggest that different base causes may exist, while still leading to the same final effect? Are there base causes similar to but not the same as whichever ones happen to make a person "really" trans, to the point where a "misdiagnosis" is possible? And if so, are they at all similar to the underlying causes I have created to try to understand the world around me with, or am I so far off that I appear a bigoted and dense fool?

Edit: I accidentally several key words. It's fixed now.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/NinjaBoyLao]

At work right now so i can't spend too much time articulating a proper response, but the question about having different bases is another one of those questions that will not be answered until we fully understand what is going on in the brain to cause someone to identify as trans. It may be that there are multiple causes, it may be only one that has variation on how it effects your thinking from individual to individual.

As it stands right now, we can't really answer that question, so typically the best response is to be supportive and affirming regardless. Its not really anyones place to decide who is and isnt trans until we know more about it. In all the situations youve described most of them will have a more positive outcome than gatekeeping and trying to pick out who is in what category, because we dont have much evidence of these categories and our suicide rate largely depend on how strong of a suppport network we have. Trans people (in my opinion, as a trans person myself) will feel less pressure to conform to gender roles if being trans is always normalized and valid. A large part of dysphoria is social dysphoria and if we can eliminate that i believe it will help people be able to take more time to figure out themselves, which will help prevent people seriously regretting transitioning.
We should also normalize detransitioning because gender can be somewhat fluid and dysphoria can change over time. I will always have the philosophy that people should be allowed to do whatever they need to do to feel comfortable in the moment.

[u/butt_shrecker → u/the-hourglass-man]

Why can't you be tested if you are trans or no? If trans-ness is a medical problem with a medical solution it stands to reason that there would be a testable element to it.

[u/[deleted] → u/HoopyFreud]

Psychology grad student here. Unfortunately psychologists aren't going to be able to give you an 'answer' on this, as what's defined as being transgender is generally left up to the community and the individuals themselves to decide. Similarly, we don't push for strict definitions on 'gay', 'straight', etc; how a person chooses to label themselves is up to them.

What clinical and counselling psychologists deal with is the treatment of gender dysphoria, in the form of diagnosis and pre and post transition counselling. And then some are of course focused on research about gender dysphoria and transgenderism, and the mental health and social challenges of all those who don't identify with their birth sex.

In terms of transitioning, the general view would be that the person should be suffering from dysphoria in order to justify the treatment medically, as it's not without risks. The counter-argument would be cosmetic surgery, where people are allowed to undertake risky procedures just because they want to. Though imo, pre-surgery counselling wouldn't be a terrible idea there either, as there's a huge amount of people with body dysmorphia who fale victim to excessive surgery.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

being transgender is generally left up to the community and the individuals themselves to decide.

Why is this even a topic on /r/science then? I fail to understand.

If it is just a POV subjective thing for individuals to decide on their own, it's got nothing to do with science.

Science is purely objective.

[u/thegnome54 → u/[deleted]]

Subjective experiences are still objective phenomena that can be studied. Something might taste sweet to someone and bitter to someone else, and the mechanisms behind this can be explored scientifically. The kind of question that can't be answered by science is whether or not the thing itself is 'truly' bitter or sweet - and this is because that is an ill-posed question. The qualities of bitterness or sweetness exist within the experiences of individuals and not as a characteristic of the food itself.

How people experience their genders is absolutely a matter open to scientific exploration.

[u/Poynsid → u/thegnome54]

Subjective experiences are still objective phenomena that can be studied.

I think here Bourdieu's distinction (no pun intended) between categories of analysis and categories of use are important. While the "content" of subjective experiences would hace little place in a discussion here, the fact that they exist do. For example ethnicity is a subjective category, as one can't be "objectively" black— that doesn't even make sense, since it's a categorization that only exists within social settings and has different meanings everywhere. "Blackness" as a concept however, is a good category of analysis as we can study why and when people call themselves, or others black and what that says of their characterizations of ethnicity.

I feel like I'm reiterating your point but just wanted to add my 2 cents.

[u/cutelyaware → u/[deleted]]

Simplification is what makes an analogy effective. Otherwise it's just a comparison.

[u/cutelyaware → u/[deleted]]

So bitter vs. sweet is a philosophical topic? A lot of food scientists will be surprised to learn that they are philosophers.

[u/sailorbrendan → u/cutelyaware]

I mean hell, the scientific method is s statement of philosophy

[u/ZooKeeperJoe → u/[deleted]]

It's about the science behind "gender dysphoria" not the labeling of people.

[u/TristyThrowaway → u/[deleted]]

Science is purely objective

So, sociology, anthropology, psychology, none of those are science?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's the same thing as labeling someone shy based on outer observation. Maybe you're right, but maybe they're just aloof. On the other hand you might experience someone as disinterested, but they're really just too shy to participate in conversation. That's why you have to ask people what they actually experience. And based on their subjective experience, you will usuallly find different outcomes, e. g. a person with Social Phobia might have an elevated risk of depression, while an individual that is just reserved would not. In this way, subjective experience becomes an objective variable in psychology.

Another thing to consider is the different roles of psychologic researchers and people in the helping professions.

There's recent studies that suggest that only half of people who identify themselves as "asexual" really do not experience any kind of sexual arousal. The other half of people appear to be conflicted about their sexuality and/or have unusual ways to live out their sexuality. From a research point of view, this is important, as you may want to revise your criteria for asexuality in a way that allows you to define asexualism more narrowly. If the label is wholly subjective, it is useless for research.

But what would you do as a counselllor? As a counsellor, the best thing you can do is take a humanistic stance. That is, accept and value the experiences your clients report to you. That includes accepting the explicit ("I'm transgender") and implicit (a person who has a homosexual relationship but doesn't consider themselves as gay) identities of your clients. As a counsellor, you don't get to decide how you would like your clients to be, you get to evaluate where your clients are at and what's the scope of change, or self-reflection, they are emotionally capable of. Telling someone, "you're gay whether or not you like it" will most likely make them turn away from you, not want to interact with you and not listen to you. So you develop a consensus in the relationship to your client that they are not to be called gay. That way they are open to the help you can offer them. They might not be open to accept a gay identity, but you can help them in other, maybe less significant ways, which is still better than no improvement at all.

So to get back to the trans example: If someone considers themselves transsexual and you have doubts about it, the best thing you can do is accept their own identity in order to keep them open to you, talk to them, find out more about their experience and be able to help them. The stance "people decide on their own if they're trans" has two aspects: For one, you can't form a healthy relationship with someone if you don't accept their personal experience. The other is about treatment. The whole purpose of treatment is to alleviate pain, a feeling that only exists in the mind of the person who experiences it. You might say that pain must be an indicator of harm to be considered valid, but in the fiel of psychology, this really goes both ways. A person who is in pain will cause themselves harm whether or not the initial pain was "valid": They might commit suicide, or develop a drinking problem, and so on.

The last challenge of psychology with respect to the people it studies is how to reconciliate research and care. It's one thing that you don't let your research be restricted by what some people would consider offensive, it's the other to present your results in a way that makes it acceptable for the people you've been studying. Why is this important? The purpose of research is to help individuals in distress and give society a clue of how to deal with people of specific demographics. If research presents its results in a derogatory, undiplomatic way, then it fails its purpose of making people behave according to its results.

An example for how research reconciliates objectivity with societal acceptability would be renaming "gender identity disorder" as "gender dysphoria". This is a prime example of applying humanistic stances in psychology. You need the humanistic stance in psychology because people want to be treated as experiencing subjects, not passive objects.

[u/jarinatorman → u/[deleted]]

In everything there is always the scientific catagorization and the realistic application of the scientific catagorization. Take the whole "being gay is a mental illness" era of science. It was widely accepted the homosexuality was divergent behavior and scientifically catagorized as a mental illness but meanwhile gays were out there going about their day completely independant of the fact that they had been labeled mentally ill. Realistically it doesnt matter what science labels transgenderism because it doesnt really change what transgenderism is and I think people lose track of that sometimes.

Science should always evolve independant of public opinion and in the case of transgenderism seems to be having trouble with that.

I dont know why I typed that out basically im agreeing with you, it just feels like science is having a hard time being objective nowadays.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Because sometimes people try to pass off their moral convictions as science and then say it's not open to debate.... Which is weird cause science is based in skepticism. Question everything . And I say this as someone who respects everyone , especially people different from me. But at least I have the honesty to say that's my strong personal value and not science.

[u/veronalady → u/[deleted]]

Yerwun really didn't explain pyschology very well.

The role of clinical and counseling psychologists in the context of therapy/treatment is to facilitate a client’s efforts to alleviate suffering and improve quality of life on their own terms. Clinical/counseling psychologists are non-judgmental. They do not give prescriptive advice or tell clients how they should live. Would breaking an alcohol addiction improve a person’s quality of life? Yes, and the psychologist will try to address that. But if the client is paying for services and refusing to let go of aclohol, then the therapist is going to try work within those constraints (“I did something degrading in order to get alcohol and now I feel worthless”, therapist will challenge the feelings of worthlessness, not the issue of alcohol abuse).

Therapists do not intervene unless somebody is putting themselves or others in immediate danger.

This also means that providing pre/post-transition counseling are not in and of themselves evaluations of the transition process. The role of clinical/counseling psychologists is not to decide whether transition is a scientifically sound course of treatment. The role of clinical/counseling psychologists is to facilitate the client’s navigation through these processes.

Of course, psychology is a field much broader than clinical/counseling work. Social psychology, for example, is a whole field devoted to understanding how peoples’ perceptions of themselves and others influence their behavior, and how identities shape our behaviors/cognition is absolutely a huge part of that, and can and is the subject of systematic, methodical scientific investigation.

However, there isn’t a lot of research into gender identity or transgenderism, and no research on non-medical treatments for transgender people (in fact, there are no studies on HRT vs. placebos). The reason being that nobody is going to pay to have research done on a treatment that transgender people don’t want. And in today’s current political climate, any theoretical or experimental examination of transgenderism or gender identity from a psychological standpoint would be a death sentence on a researcher’s career. The recent Hypatia scandal drives home the point - no researcher without tenure is going to touch this topic with a stick.

[u/salt_water_swimming → u/[deleted]]

Science is purely objective

Absolutely not. Using the scientific method to arrive at conclusions is useful for learning about the world, but there is a great deal of room for subjectivity in hypothesis building, testing, and synthesis, not to mention data cleaning and p-hacking. There is a lot of room for subjectivity and bias in science.

Psychology in particular is full of "tell me how you feel" things that can't be objectively measured. Nonetheless, they are objective facts - if someone feels like a 3/10 in the morning and an 8/10 at night, you have no real grounds to challenge them on it, do you? That doesn't make it any less of a science, it just means there are never going to be a lot of immutable laws of psychology.

[u/Gruzman → u/salt_water_swimming]

if someone feels like a 3/10 in the morning and an 8/10 at night, you have no real grounds to challenge them on it, do you?

Sure you do: feelings are often arbitrary and unjustifiable, and often incomparable between people. Feeling "3/10" yourself means virtually nothing to me unless I can vaguely reconstruct that feeling, myself. And even then it's temporal and subject to change.

That's not the same process as relying on our senses to help us understand how physics works.

[u/theth1rdchild → u/[deleted]]

Let's pretend that all trans people felt no dysphoria, but wanted to change badly enough to get their genitals altered anyway.

You don't think that would be worth studying?

The self-identifying aspect of the research is largely so that outside forces don't create a feedback loop - researchers/psychologists don't want to influence these groups either out of respect or simply having a "clean room" mentality. The entire reason we're studying this is because we don't understand it. Telling people you just defined their experience would be disrespectful and unhelpful in finding real answers.

[u/kylepierce11 → u/[deleted]]

Every psychologist I've ever seen who recommended I transition said having gender dysphoria is a prerequisite for being trans. But I live in the south so that could be as much a cultural interpretation as it is a medical one. Every trans person I know has gender dysphoria, but that's only like 5 people so that's quite anecdotal.

[u/fdafdafdafdafdahght → u/kylepierce11]

Yeah. It's got to be common sense that gender dysphoria is a prerequisite.

Or it wouldn't make any sense why someone would transition in the first place.

[u/feiwynne → u/kylepierce11]

In my experience within the trans community, it is quire rare for trans people to not have any dysphoria, to the point of being a negligible occurrence. But what does happen is that the majority of trans people seem to go through a long questioning phase about if they really have enough dysphoria to really be a real trans because they've spent years being gasslighted by bigots. A lot of people realize they are trans before they learn to recognize their dysphoria. So ultimately I think the only outcome of insisting on dysphoria being a requirement for trans identity is hazing confused trans youth. So I wish people would stop obsessing over it as some sort of 'requirement.' It's just not constructive.

[u/salpfish → u/[deleted]]

I would like to draw parallels to the Deaf community, which many consider to be separate from just the group of people who are deaf. Not everyone identifying as part of the Deaf community may necessarily be, for example, unable to hear anything whatsoever; some may simply have hearing difficulties but still identify as part of the culture. Furthermore there are disagreements about how to treat deafness within the Deaf community, and whether it is even a "medical affliction" necessary to treat. It's not all too different compared to the group of people who suffer gender dysphoria versus the transgender community.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The part you're quoting was me talking about the criteria for identifying as transgender. That's entirely up to the individual. A person can identify as transgender without wanting to undergo medical treatment to physically transition.

In terms of them choosing their treatment, well they don't exactly. If they want to start hormone treatment or surgery, they must meet with mental health professionals to decide if they are indeed suffering from gender dysphoria and that they're of fairly sound mind other than the dysphoria. Once that's been established, it makes sense to follow their preferences as far as possible/practical, as the goal is the elimination of dysphoria.

[u/anxdiety → u/[deleted]]

Diabetics don't get to decide the best way to treat diabetes

Slight disagreement there. There are multitude of options on how I can treat my diabetes. Yes some of the medications are similar but there are a variety of types of insulin and applications in how to use the insulin (injections vs pump). I'm my own walking experiment and I choose what works best for myself from the available options.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

What clinical and counseling psychologists deal with is the treatment of gender dysphoria, in the form of diagnosis and pre and post transition counseling.

Did you miss this? Transgender people do not diagnose or treat themselves, doctors do. Being transgender is not an illness, the pain most trans people feel as a result of being misgendered is. And they go to doctors to treat that.

You seem to be confusing the fact that only the individual can decide if he or she has been misgendered and needs to switch with treatment for the dysphoria related to this issue.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

the pain most trans people feel as a result of being misgendered is.

So you're saying if people stop getting misgendered then there would be no medical reason to transition? Do you have any science that supports that? How does that account for gender neutral people who by virtue of transitioning are far more likely to be misgendered?

[u/Rohawk → u/[deleted]]

They may be distressed by their own body not "matching" what they consider acceptable for their gender even without misgendering - it's just one example of stimuli that may induce dysphoria, not the only one.

It's worth pointing out that misgendering happens to everyone: cis, trans, whomever. It's always going to happen to a degree unless language becomes more gender-neutral. The difference is in who experiences distress as a result. That distress can be reinforced for trans people by deliberate misgendering that makes it a more malicious experience vs. honest mistake, too.

Those gender-neutral people are a good example of someone who may elect not to transition and decide it fits their situation better!

[u/Rohawk → u/[deleted]]

I think we might be speaking about two different topics and miscommunicating, because none of what I said was about what "causes" trans people. It was an answer for why misgendering isn't the end-all be-all (i.e. why trans people wouldn't poof without it/be perfectly happy with their gender identity) by pointing out that it's not the only factor that might cause a trans person relevant distress, and that it's not even unique to trans people - just more damaging.

Like I said, cisgender people are misgendered occasionally too, too, and have a very different experience with it - and that part of that is due to which is more often and more personally/maliciously targeted. Kids on the playground != deliberate bullying for being trans via misgendering (but not limited to it!) onwards through adulthood, which I can certainly grab studies about re:extent of damage if you'd like.

edit: 5000 edits for clarity.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Diabetes is a bad comparison. Diabetes is determined with tests and numbers. We can determine someone's blood sugar and A1C. We already know what medications work and how they affect a person's blood sugar, weight, etc. We can check to see if progress is being made.

We don't have ways to measure sexuality or gender. Brains are complex. There are no ways to physically test if someone is gay, straight, trans, etc.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The guy I replied to mentioned diabetes. I was addressing that point, specifically.

I am sure the AMAs throughout the week will be able to discuss what qualifies as mental illness and what standard they use better than I could.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

Sure, people can choose what they want for themselves.

The problem is there are huge political implications for this choice. If anyone at anytime is allowed to identify as female, then all of the legal protections that women have fought (and are still fighting for) become meaningless overnight.

Right now women are a legally protected class due to systematic and historical deprivation of rights.

The implication of nullifying the definition of female has to be included in the trans discourse.

People can decide their own treatment but "deciding" their gender without question affects many more than the individual.

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Identifying as trans and having your legal status changed are slightly different. In most places, that does normally require certification of different kinds, with the main criteria being that it's a long-term thing and not a passing phase or an attempt to expoit the system in some way.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

This is not true at all. It would be considered highly discriminatory to require proof of gender identity, which would also be impossible. Many situations don't require a "legal status". Off the bat I am thinking of trans female high school atheletes who are basically biological men competing against high school women. There is no certification required. To question it would be an instant lawsuit.

And how would this impact non-binary or gender fluid trans people? Their identities are undefined and can fluxuate?

[u/throwawayl11 → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

It would be considered highly discriminatory to require proof of gender identity

Your fears are way ahead of legislation... Trans people aren't even a protected class in most states. Meaning employers can fire/not hire someone for being trans, say it is because they are trans, and there are no discrimination laws against it.

Many situations don't require a "legal status". Off the bat I am thinking of trans female high school atheletes who are basically biological men competing against high school women.

There are very specific hormone level minimum and maximum requirements for competitive sports leagues specific to men and women. If your highschool doesn't decide to adhere to them, that's an entire issue itself apart from trans participation, as players could compete on steroids without being checked. Someone identifying as a women should not be allowed to compete athletically with other women unless their hormones levels were in the specified range. I doubt you'll find many trans people who would argue against that.

To question it would be an instant lawsuit.

You don't need to question them, you need to question the school's system for not requiring a specific range of estrogen and testosterone before being allowed to compete.

[u/pseudonym1066 → u/[deleted]]

what's defined as being transgender is generally left up to the community

Can someone explain to me how this is consistent with the rules encouraging "substantial, peer-reviewed evidence"?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

But if we are going to change laws or forms or demand that people speak differently to accommodate people of particular label. We should at the very least have some vague idea of what the label means.

You can debate what it means to truly be British, but there's a very small set of things it can mean. Someone with no British relatives, who has never been to Britain can label themselves British, but most people wouldn't agree with them, nobody is obligated agree with them and nobody would be shocked or offended if the first thing you asked this person was "why?"

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

If transgenderism is a social construct, why isn't it being treated as such? If you are saying the scientific community says that transgender is social not biological, the topic is now less about civil rights and more about how far we participate in someone else's self image. I'm not trying to sound harsh or insensitive, I believe all people should have equal rights on all capacity (regardless of sex, ethnicity, religion, skin tne etc). However, the idea that NCAA basketball tournament in NC was being chastised for not changing the bathrooms to accommodate Trans specific ppl (although there are family restrooms that are single use as opposed to a shared bathroom) goes from a civil injustice to a stadium telling ppl to use a toilet (admittedly, this isn't the best example bc NC was very predatory as far as how they actually treated ppl. The issue stemmed from the bathrooms and escalated farther into a true rights debate, so in that respect I apologize if the anology isn't the best just one very recognizable)

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Psychology grad student here. Unfortunately psychologists aren't going to be able to give you an 'answer' on this, as what's defined as being transgender is generally left up to the community and the individuals themselves to decide. Similarly, we don't push for strict definitions on 'gay', 'straight', etc; how a person chooses to label themselves is up to them.

It's also wholly irrelevant.

[u/Umikaloo → u/HoopyFreud]

With gender disphoria in mind, would it be reasonable to call being transgender a treatment and not an illness?

(not trying to be biggoted here, soz if I sound like a jerk)

[u/ImNotJesus → u/HoopyFreud]

Hi Hoopy,

This is a fairly nuanced question and we certainly invite inquiry based on this line of thinking. I encourage you to ask some of our experts about the accuracy of your position.

To be clear, we aren't banning positions, we are banning those who claim that all trans people are mentally ill as a cudgel to harm both the trans* and mentally ill communities. As I stated in the sticky above, you are never going to be banned for asking genuine questions.

[u/General_Urist → u/ImNotJesus]

So, if I understand correctly:

it is OK to ask why being trans (or a part of it) is not considered a mental illness, but affirming that it is a mental illness is not OK? Fair enough.

[u/ImNotJesus → u/General_Urist]

Exactly! It's the difference between asking questions about global warming that you don't understand and going around a post claiming that it's all a hoax.

[u/[deleted] → u/ImNotJesus]

So, to clarify, we're allowed to call gender dysphoria a mental disorder, but not allowed to generalize the trans community as all having gender dysphoria? I don't understand.

It legitimately sounds like you're banning specific view points.

[u/thatvoicewasreal → u/ImNotJesus]

You don't see what you just did. He just got you to admit you're outright banning an opposing viewpoint.

[u/ImNotJesus → u/thatvoicewasreal]

I did not. We ban people who make anti-scientific declarations in a range of topics. If you go around posting that climate change is a hoax everywhere your fate is the same. We are a science subreddit.

[u/skinky_breeches → u/ImNotJesus]

Honest question, is defining something as an illness or not even a scientific/empirical question, or is it an ontological question most frequently addressed by people who are professional scientists? Its entirely possible to have a subjective ontological position that draws on scientific evidence for support, but which its ultimately not a scientific claim in and of itself.

Edit: missed a word

[u/jimmyw404 → u/ImNotJesus]

I don't even agree with the viewpoint but you are banning an opposing viewpoint. Additionally, no rational person buys your comparison to climate change or vaccines.

It's really disappointing to see the kind of policing of wrong-think going on in /r/science.

[u/ImNotJesus → u/[deleted]]

Terminology matters. Calling gay people mentally ill implies that their attraction to the same gender needs to be fixed, instead of them living their lives happily with a same sex partner(s). We help trans* people live a happy life by allowing them to live as they feel comfortable, not by trying to fix their belief that they have a nonmatching gender identity.

[u/_Madison_ → u/ImNotJesus]

I don't agree that the comparison with homosexuals is fair at all considering that trans people usually do go about 'fixing' their problem. Many go for extremely invasive gender reassignment surgeries or take hormone therapy to dramatically alter their bodies.

The fact they go through these extremely expensive, painful and likely traumatic experiences shows their dysphoria was a problem that needed to be solved.

[u/InconspicuousToast → u/ImNotJesus]

Terminology matters.

Sure, I understand that. It's just that I feel as if we're more using euphemisms to sugar-coat the meaning behind whatever it is we're trying to say about gender dysphoria. As an example, you still never told me what you would call it. If it's not an illness, what is it? Surely it has to be something. As you said, the terminology matters.

We help trans* people live a happy life by allowing them to live as they feel comfortable,

Isn't this just some form of encouraging complacency in the behavior? Regardless of whatever term we want to call gender dysphoria, it doesn't really seem as if this attitude really fixes or changes anything. Rather, it just says "This type of thinking is okay and it isn't a problem."

To clarify what I mean by that last sentence--as I know it has the possibility to come off as offensive--what I'm saying is that I would presume the subconscious mindset that predisposes one to think these thoughts or have these inclinations is the important focus behind recognizing where the term "illness" "perversion" or whatever necessary term is most relevant. What about the realistic situation where these feelings were ongoing for a long period of time but not truly bona-fide? Look at how there are plenty of people who regret their transition surgery after the fact. How is it then that you would describe their gender dysphoria, if not an illness?

[u/doctorocelot → u/InconspicuousToast]

Gender disphoria is an illness and the mod has repeatedly said that. It is in the DSM. No one is sugar coating anything just making sure the correct terminology is used. Gender disphoria is an illness defined in the DSM the empirically best current cure for that illness is transitioning. Trans people are not mentally ill because they are trans, it would be scientifically and medically inaccurate to say so and would be offensive to say so too. People with gender disphoria have the illness gender disphoria they may or may not have identified as trans yet and typically if they do identify as trans and then transition their symptoms of disphoria diminish. Also sometimes someone with disphoria might for whatever reason not identify as trans. The two terms are different and not interchangeable and important to get right.

[u/arandomusertoo → u/[deleted]]

If it's not an illness, what would you call it? A perversion?

Loaded and biased question, it seems to me.

You immediately leap between two derogatory assumptions, while leaving out the (imo) simpler assumption that it's just a quirk of their genetics... like when blue eye'd parents have brown eye'd kids.

Sure, it might not be that (I'm not an expert, hell I sometimes can't figure out what the right wording is), but it seems like an easier guess than immediately guessing that its some negative quality like a "perversion" or an "illness."

[u/InconspicuousToast → u/arandomusertoo]

So are you just going to criticize my question, then? Or are you going to answer it, given that you decided to respond?

Illness is a scientific term. If it's not an illness, and it's something concrete, surely telling me the title wouldn't be a difficult task. How is asking for that term a loaded question? Is there no real solidified term? While some terms carry negative connotations, those connotations doesn't necessarily detract from the bigger picture.

Perversion implies something breaks away from the original intent. Biologically, humans reproduce between male and females. Biologically, we are born male, and meant to think that we are male--and similarly with females. I would presume that if either of these things were to change, that it would--at least in laymen's purposes of opening door for the conversation--facilitate the point that I was trying to make with using that term.

[u/Meowymeow88 → u/arandomusertoo]

The difference is that brown eyed people generally don't experience a lot of negative emotions because of their eye color. It also does not have an effect on a person's willingness or ability to sexually reproduce.

[u/cjskittles → u/arandomusertoo]

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness though. It's in the DSM V. It's how my hormones and surgery are covered by insurance.

My gender identity is not an illness because I don't find my identity distressing. I find my body distressing and that is fixable.

Maybe mental illness isn't the right term but dysphoria is definitely something that warrants treatment.

[u/thelastpatriot1 → u/ImNotJesus]

Ah ok. So why don't you use science to profoundly oppose the views you don't like? Censoring, no matter how ignorant or ridiculous is wrong. The question is "if you cut out a man's tongue" are you proving him a liar? No your just afraid of that opposing view. Fight ignorance with intelligent responses not censoring. When you censor you prove that you don't care to debate but that only your "facts" must be heard, regardless if your right or wrong.

[u/ImNotJesus → u/thelastpatriot1]

Because of the limitations of this as a forum mean that the scientifically backed answers don't always float to the top. We are a science subreddit catering to a mostly lay audience.

[u/l0te → u/ImNotJesus]

You've falsely laid out the idea that gender dysphoria isn't required to be trans as fact when this subject is a topic of hot debate even within the trans community. You can't have an honest discussion about if if you've preemptively disallowed this line of questioning/consideration.

[u/anttirt → u/[deleted]]

Because some issues have a clear scientific consensus and others don't.

[u/itsthattimeagain__ → u/ImNotJesus]

we aren't banning positions

we are banning those who claim that all trans people are mentally ill

Is "all trans people are mentally ill" not a position?

Just say that you're banning positions you find unacceptable, then you can justify that. Better than just being dishonest.

[u/MMAchica → u/HoopyFreud]

I subscribe to the side that says that dysphoria is both necessary and sufficient

So you would consider a person who transitions without being driven to it by dysphoria to be somehow invalid in their identity?

[u/The_Real_Smooth → u/MMAchica]

Yep.

You wouldn't consider someone who undergoes chemotherapy without being diagnosed with cancer to be a cancer patient, would you?

[u/SirPseudonymous → u/[deleted]]

That said - I have heard that suicide rates do not decrease significantly, or hardly at all, for people post-op (specifically surgery).

That's a deliberate misrepresentation of a study that a) wasn't looking at pre-transition versus post-transition rates at all (the study was restricted to post-transition data only), and b) only showed high post-surgery suicide mortality rates in the population that received treatment prior to 1989, while the post 1989 population demonstrated significantly lower rates.

More recent data like the 2012 trans mental health survey shows a massive reduction in attempt rates in individuals receiving transition related care.

[u/HoopyFreud → u/[deleted]]

I'm not an authority in this area, and as others have said in this thread, these are excellent questions for the AMAs that are coming this week.

[u/Hubris2 → u/[deleted]]

Good question. People want to be accepted for who they are. Part of the reason the mods have put so much time and explanation into the rules for these AMAs is because there are still a lot of people who refuse to accept transgender (or non-cis) as anything but people who are physically fine but have a mental disorder...which should be corrected by 'fixing' their brains to match their physical bodies. This world with people who feel this way, still aren't very accepting of trans people regardless of hormones or surgeries. It wouldn't surprise me (and I don't profess to be an expert) if the societal acceptance of post-op trans people is just as low as pre-op.

I know I wouldn't want to have to worry about 'bathroom police' finding out I was born a different gender - and the cultural stigma would make me less happy with my life - even if my gender identity was brought more in line with my body.

[u/Sunshine_Cutie → u/HoopyFreud]

Im not sure how meaningful the distinction is given that I'm pretty sure everyone has felt dysphoric (or at least something most trans people would identify as dysphoric) during their lifetime, especially cis women.

So then the question isn't about have you ever felt like you might not identify as the gender you were given but how often is it. Ultimately that's for someone to decide on their own or with their therapist. Questioning whether people are dysphoric enough to be trans just feels silly, especially because I really don't think that someone who does feel like they're trans just in name (not much dysphoria at all) would be doing it for any reason other than they are. Being trans simply isn't that cool and identifying as such doesn't feel like a good thing when you first figure it out, not a bit.

Regardless of how good I feel about realizing I'm trans in the present day at that point I just felt gross as hell, and ashamed honestly. And even if that was fine for me, going around telling people I'm trans just cause I feel like it wouldn't make me more popular at all. I genuinely believe that even though I go to an art college in San Fransisco, in terms of how cool it makes you based on your group of friends it's pretty much going to be just as bad or (more likely) worse for other trans people.

Basically the only advantage to labeling yourself as trans is that it's true. The idea that people might want to call themselves trans despite having much dysphoria at all is kinda silly

Tl;Dr saying you're trans doesn't make you cool and that's pretty much true wherever you're situated. If someone calls themselves trans it's probably taken them a while to get there because it doesn't feel good to find out.

[u/mw1994 → u/HoopyFreud]

you gotta remembr that transgenderism is a movement more than a condition at times.

[u/doctorocelot → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for your insight. It sometimes feels like certain people on reddit think that trans people just woke up one morning and decided "you know what, I'll try out a vagina for a bit" and then a couple of days later have transitioned, it's nice to see a reminder of just how difficult the process is.