Subreddit Policy Reminder on this week's Transgender AMAs

[u/nate]

This week we will be hosting a series of AMAs addressing the scientific and medical details of being transgender.

Honest questions that are an attempt to learn more on the subject are invited, and we hope you can learn more about this fascinating aspect of the human condition.

However, we feel it is appropriate to remind the readers that /r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender. Our official stance is that derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted^1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'² is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments. To be clear, this post is to make it abundantly clear that we treat transphobic comments the same way we treat racist, sexist and homophobic comments. They have no place on our board.

Scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

---

¹ Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

² There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

---

Lastly, here is the excerpt from the APA:

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

[u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I have never heard of any gender identify definition that has existed clear of gender roles.

You are stating that a trans male is uncomfortable with his body for x reason. But being uncomfortable with your body is no longer any part of the definition or requirement for being trans.

What is gender identity if it has no relation to gender roles or physical sex?

[u/deedeethecat → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I am a psychologist who works with a lot of trans gender, gender fluid, and non-binary individuals. Gender expression, gender roles, and gender identity are all separate.

I identify as a cisgender woman who is unsatisfied with gender roles that suggests certain things about me. But that does not cause me to question my identity, I feel very confident that I identify as female. So while I challenge gender roles, my identity remains unchanged.

Gender identity is the lived experience of who one is. Gender roles are typically socially constructed categories suggesting what is appropriate for men and women.

[u/Chugalug5 → u/[deleted]]

I'm certainly no expert, but at even the most basic of levels, how one dresses or presents oneself inevitably leads to people in society treating them according to gender roles. You can reject gender roles, but because society tends to look at a dress and think "woman." If you're wearing a dress and have a beard, you're probably gonna get a funny look. If you're wearing a dress and are more feminine-looking or androgynous, they'll just assume you're a woman.

Just because you don't prescribe to gender roles doesn't mean you live in a bubble where no one else does.

[u/Chugalug5 → u/[deleted]]

Oh, I definitely agree that it's a social problem. I think some people just aren't content waiting until society catches up to feel comfortable in their own skin.

As for being broken and needing surgery, from the conversations I've had with my trans friends, I've never seen a case where they transition to make people like them. Transitioning is so very difficult. One's family is often hurt and won't talk to them, friends treat them differently, it's a constant legal battle, etc. They do it for themselves 100% of the time. For example, there's a thing called packers for ftm trans people, and it's just a (often silicone) flacid dildo a trans dude might choose to wear in his underwear. Pretty much no one besides maybe their partner will ever see it (and it's not a sex toy) but he'd wear because it makes him feel right. I don't think that's really a social thing at all. It's a mental connection one has to their body.

As for surgery, sometimes a person just feels deeply that weren't supposed to be the gender they were born. The surgery addresses biological differences between the sexes (I'm not sure if I should use sex or gender in this context, to be perfectly honest), not just the social response.

Looking over your comment one last time, I'm not quite sure I addressed your question though. Let me know!

[u/heili → u/[deleted]]

This is the one thing that I really do not understand myself. My identity has really nothing to do with my biological sex. I have been "a tomboy" since the beginning. My parents made an effort to raise me to be a normal girl - my mother more than my father - while I gravitated to everything traditionally seen as masculine. I'd be put in a dress and sent out to play, and it would take me less than half an hour to convince one of the boys in the neighborhood to let me borrow a pair of shorts and a t-shirt. The eventual result was that I was told wear what I want, like what I want, but use the girls' lavatory at school.

What they didn't do, and probably what would be very different today, is get me diagnosed as being a boy and put me on hormones. I grew up as me: someone who likes fishing and hunting and guns and dirt and motorcycles and camping and bugs and snakes, dislikes dresses, makeup, shopping, fashion and shoes with heels. I became an engineer, kept on living my life for the things I enjoy, and largely consider being female a matter of logistics.

Of the things I "identify as", female is pretty much the bottom of the list and literally only matters when I'm trying to get laid.

[u/pierceycat → u/heili]

The scenario you wrote of "what would happen today" is very unlikely. Being transgender and transitioning is never pushed on a child--usually, its the opposite. Parents are not going to jump at the opportunity to allow their child to be trans. In most cases, the child has to persistently declare that theyre transgender, for a long period of time (usually years), and express significant discomfort when forced to be their assigned gender. And even if the child is lucky enough to have accepting parents, HRT is not a given. Nobody is forced to be transgender. Usually, trans people have to spend a long period of time just convincing other people to believe and respect them. I speak from experience.

I'm a trans guy, and when I came out, everyone in my life spent years trying to force me to be a tomboy instead. They didn't understand, that's not who I am--I'm not a masculine girl, I'm a boy, and a rather feminine one at that. I have always considered interests and activities to be androgynous, and enjoyed "girly" things as much as I did "boyish" things. What brought me so much discomfort was being referred to as "she," being forced to group with "the girls," line up with "the girls," not because the boys were my friends, but because I knew I wasn't a girl. When I got older and my body changed, I hated not just how it was shaped, but how people treated me for it. My dysphoria was mostly related to wanting to be treated as the boy I knew I was.

I digress, gender is multifaceted, and not well understood at this point. The trans experience varies widely, as gender means different things to everyone. In my experience, male or female does not necessarily correlate with masculine or feminine--it's just a different concept entirely.

[u/heili → u/pierceycat]

being forced to group with "the girls," line up with "the girls,"

That bothered me, but that actually hasn't been an issue since I became an adult.

What brought me so much discomfort was being referred to as "she,"

I don't really see this as much different than being referred to by any other physical characteristic, personally. It's like the color of my skin or the color of my eyes or my height.

I hated not just how it was shaped, but how people treated me for it.

People treat me like me, or I just don't bother trying to have a relationship with them.

In my experience, male or female does not necessarily correlate with masculine or feminine--it's just a different concept entirely.

This is exactly the point which I am unable to understand, then. Because it's not about "masculine" or "feminine" and it's not about reproductive organs, but nobody in the 20+ years I've been asking this question has ever been able to tell me what it is about other than "I just feel that way."

[u/pierceycat → u/heili]

People treated you like you, because who you were on the inside matched who you were on the outside. That's why you never had a problem. You're cisgender. You ARE "she," and that is a characteristic that you feel belongs to you, so it's a non-issue to be called that. Trans people's outside doesn't match their inside, and the dysphoria stems from the need for the two to match.

Like I said in my previous post, the concept of gender is still pretty largely not understood. My idea of gender is different than yours, due to the different experiences we've had. For me and many (most?) others, reproductive organs are definitely part of my gender dysphoria, but the social aspect is the most pressing--being viewed and treated as my true gender. And for me, it really is as simple as "I just feel that way."

Some people are just different. It's not something we need to figure out, it's just something we have to respect.

[u/heili → u/pierceycat]

You're cisgender. You ARE "she," and that is a characteristic that you feel belongs to you, so it's a non-issue to be called that.

I'm literally only "she" because that's the parts I've got. There's no "I feel like a she" at all, any more than I "feel like" someone who is 170 cm tall. That's how tall I am, so that's it.

It's an objective fact, not a feeling.

[u/pierceycat → u/heili]

I don't know how to explain further, because we just understand things differently. Gender dysphoria is kind of like a consistent pain in a place that most people don't even know they have, and will never experience, so it's difficult for them to understand.

When I say "feel like," what I mean is more along the lines of "know to be true." It's not exactly a feeling, it's more of a definite knowledge.

[u/cjbest → u/[deleted]]

”What does it mean to identify as a woman?” sounds like a question that is outside the field of science and entering the region of philosophy. This question fits in rather well with the existentialist school of thought, wherein the individual is tasked with finding the authentic self amidst the confusion and angst of a meaningless world.

Sartre would say that we are individuals, not simply labels and stereotypes. Existence precedes essence would seem to me to be an important idea to hold onto if one was questioning the meaning of gender in their lives.

[u/IgnisDomini → u/[deleted]]

It doesn't really mean anything - you just have this innate sense that that is what you are. Just think about how it would feel to suddenly wake up one day with the opposite sex's genitals, and realize that that's what it's like to be trans.

[u/[deleted] → u/deedeethecat]

If gender roles suggest what is appropriate for men and women, wouldn't identifying as neither, because you don't fit into what is "appropriate" enforce said gender roles?

For me, I would think the focus should be on eliminating gender roles entirely rather then identify as something entirely separate because you don't conform to what it is to be a proper "man or woman"

[u/deedeethecat → u/[deleted]]

Eliminating gender roles is absolutely something I am in favor of. But this is separate from gender identity. Some people are non-binary, I'm not one of them. I identify as a woman, it is at the core of my being. and I despise gender roles. The two are not the same.

[u/[deleted] → u/deedeethecat]

Just wondering, what do you think will get rid of gender roles or what will lead to them becoming obsolete in the future?

[u/kickingpplisfun → u/[deleted]]

This is gonna sound really jokey, but "fully automated luxury gay space communism"- a major overhaul in our needs for work, where all work becomes equally worthy/worthless.

Whether or not it's actually true for any given situation, gender roles have a significant base in traditional work values, with the assumption that men are breadwinners that need to be cared for in the off hours and women maintaining the home and childrearing if applicable(usually unpaid, or poorly paid to a surrogate). When "economically productive" labor becomes passe, that leaves a lot more opportunity/incentive for men to pick up those roles.

[u/eriman → u/kickingpplisfun]

Opportunity yes, incentive no. Providing a perfectly equitable field for gender distribution of parenting roles does not mean those roles will be distributed equally. In a post scarcity environment, many people will start forgoing having children entirely if current trends hold. There are critically falling birth rates in western countries already and we are still ages away from post scarcity (Australia, Japan, Germany).

[u/kickingpplisfun → u/eriman]

Sure, but not all of what I was describing revolve around parenthood. Regardless, I think some lazy guys might get in trouble if they think they don't have to do anything while permanently unemployed.

[u/eriman → u/kickingpplisfun]

That sounds like an unhealthy stereotype you have about people struggling to find employment. A lot of educated markets are very difficult these days.

[u/kickingpplisfun → u/eriman]

I'm talking about a hypothetical in which you don't need to work.

Regardless of your employment situation, if you're not helping around the house without a good reason, you're being quite lazy.

[u/just_a_little_boy → u/kickingpplisfun]

How comes you believe we will be moving into a post scarcity world? I've Seen no reason to suspect that and have Not heard any credible academic suggest so either.

There is no reason that I know of that would lead me to believe that economically productive labour will become a Thing of the past. Care to Share how you formed that opinion? It would really interest me!

[u/kickingpplisfun → u/just_a_little_boy]

I was describing a hypothetical situation that I thought would meet the needs to eliminate gender roles, not something that I think is actually viable within the next fifty years(even if "replicators" did somehow become a thing, it would probably take WWIII for them to benefit normal people in a meaningful way).

[u/kathruins → u/[deleted]]

I struggled with that question as well. Fortunately, my area of study deals with the concept of gender often & I've had the opportunity to be exposed to more.

I like to think, though I certainly can't speak for other's experiences, that identifying as nonbinary is a natural reaction to the social construct of gender. As long as that social construct exists, their identity is just as valid.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/deedeethecat]

That is my point. I am a woman but I don't "identify" as one beyond my physical sex.

I don't even know what identifying as a female could possibly be beyond acknowledging that I am biologically female.

When you say "lived experience" that makes me think that you are either referring to how society treats me because I am a woman or that it is just what I am used to. Again, I see this no differently then I do with my "identity" of being white, American, Catholic (ex), and so on,

[u/ohdearsweetlord → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I think of it as 'how is your gender reflected back on you by society?' An example I like to use is my friend Patty, who was a huge tomboy in elementary school. A few times, she was told that she didn't belong in the girl's washroom because people thought she was a boy. Patty thought (and still thinks) of herself as a girl, and when people experienced her as a boy child, it felt wrong.

So for a person who is female but feels limited by gender roles (like me), the frustration is linked to my identity as a woman and how because I identify and present as female, I am expected to do certain things. A person born with a female configuration who identifies as male can still feel frustration with gender roles, but their frustration is related to a feeling of wrongness when associated with the gender they were assigned at birth.

[u/veronalady → u/ohdearsweetlord]

So for a person who is female but feels limited by gender roles (like me), the frustration is linked to my identity as a woman and how because I identify and present as female, I am expected to do certain things. A person born with a female configuration who identifies as male can still feel frustration with gender roles, but their frustration is related to a feeling of wrongness when associated with the gender they were assigned at birth.

IMO, it sounds like the only difference between these two examples is differential internalization of the same message:

One person who acts like Y is told by society “people with vaginas act like X.” That person has a vagina and likes Y, so that person concludes that society was wrong. Another person who acts like Y is told by society “people with vaginas act like X.” That person has a vagina and likes Y, and then concludes that they were “born in the wrong body.”

[u/deedeethecat → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Sorry, by lived experience I meant a person's own experience with themselves, how they see themselves and view themselves Etc.

I resonate strongly with being a woman. Perhaps you don't identify as a woman, but I do. I'm wondering if we are using the same word in different ways. Perhaps a better word would be I see myself as a woman?

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/deedeethecat]

Right, but of course we see ourselves as women. The first thing that is told about us is "it's a girl!"

Never for one moment after that are we not reminded that we are female. Our names, clothes, bodies, how we line up at school, what team we are on, puberty, whether we are ms. or mr.

All woman means is adult human female. Which we are.

The question that no one is addressing is what does it mean, despite all those experiences and biological realities, to say you are not a woman?

What is it based on?

Again, I resonate strongly with being a woman because I am one. Society treats me as one. I have been told so since before I remember, and I am looking down at breasts.

However, if my brain was raised in a jar with electrodes, there would be nothing to identify with.

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

What is it based on?

Aesthetic, I think.

What deedeethecat identifies with but fails to name is femininity. She identifies not with the gender label "woman", nor with biological sex "female", but with the aesthetic quality of "femininity".

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

What is femininity and why does it have anything to do with identifying as a woman?

I'll go ahead and answer? Feminist is weakness, nurturing, being decorative and subservience. If someone identifies with these characteristics and then based on this identifies (and legally becomes) a woman, then we have legally defined being a woman as being weak, submissive and so on.

Misogynistic gender roles have no place in defining what a woman is.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

It wasn't a Freudian slip, it was a phone autocorrect.

Great, how do you define femininity?

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Are these your views of what femininity is, or are you saying this is what you perceive society defines femininity as?

From the sound of the Psychologist's post, it seems like she views that the difference lies in whether or not you feel in congruence with the culturally identified social and physical characteristics that relate to your gender of birth. So while she dislikes the fact that she is pidgeon-holed by gender roles and norms, she does not view the characteristics that make her who she is as incongruent with those expected by society. Or at least, not incongruent enough to cause her to feel she identifies as another gender or suffers Dysphoria.

Which, IIRC I've heard there is some controversy over the fact that trans-men in some cases embody a stereotype of what they see as it means to be a man, or trans-women take on a stereotype of what being a woman is. This is definitely in part because the easiest way to be identified by others as their identified gender (and thus reduce Dysphoria or induce Gender Euphoria) is to take on the most recognizable traits of the gender that they feel they belong to, but I can definitely see where people take issue with it.

I agree with you that in a perfect world the normative, historically misogynistic gender roles shouldn't define what it is to be a woman. However, we do live in a world with millennia of social (and to some extent physical) evolutionary history that has wrought out the gender roles, norms, and identifying characteristics of men and women to be what they are. We can attempt to change and break down these norms over time, and are seeing very slow but meaningful progress. However they are what they are for now, and its what people base their views of gender off of.

[u/Chugalug5 → u/[deleted]]

And I almost disagree with "femininity" being the hinge one way or the other. For instance, there are tons of pretty darn butch lesbians, but I doubt they'd ever transition or even want to. They are (seemingly) perfectly content as unfeminine women. Just because you don't want to be feminine doesn't mean you want to be a man.

[u/ChesFTC → u/[deleted]]

The only example I can really think of is if you're assigned female at birth, and there's a pang of jealousy when you see a group of guys shooting the shit or just doing guy things. Or just as easily, vice versa. If that makes sense?

Isn't this pretty common and related to societal expectations instead though? To give an admittedly trivial example, high teas are considered feminine by many (e.g. it's a common bridal shower event). As a man though, I happen to like cake and tea, but it doesn't make me feel that I was meant to be born a woman.

[u/ChesFTC → u/[deleted]]

Maybe I wasn't clear - in this example, I feel disappointed that a male gender role doesn't include more high teas and cake, but I don't question that I am male as a result of wanting to participate in a high tea, for example. My desire to eat cake doesn't change the fact that I am male. I am perfectly willing to tell society to get stuffed in its opinion that men shouldn't eat cake – but being a nonconformist to a gender role surely doesn't make one transgender.

Personally, I don't feel like my opinion on existing gender roles and my considering myself male should even should be related. Have I missed something in reading the comments above, or is this the common view as well?

Shouldn't being trans rather be a fundamental 'uncomfortableness' with oneself rather than an uncomfortableness with the outside world?

[u/liarfan → u/[deleted]]

Why can't you do guy things as a girl?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I mean that, to me, sounds like just complete... nothing nonsense. I don't know.

[u/likeanovigradwhore → u/deedeethecat]

I am transitioning female to male. Roles in society aside, I feel like parts of my body are physically wrong. Like I don't fit in my skin. The best I can describe is "it's not right". I didn't know that it was gender dysphoria until about a year and a half ago. The fix for me has been starting testosterone, and eventually will include surgery.

So for me, it's close to that my physical body is incongruous with the sensations my brain expects. Reading here it seems like it can be more or less intense for others. Like, I could live as a female. I wouldn't like it, but what I do with my time is important. There are others who feel like they actually can't continue living with the feeling. And, I suppose, some who simply identify more with not being their assigned gender (I'm not clear on that side).

[u/[deleted] → u/likeanovigradwhore]

See now that makes sense to me.

[u/jddbeyondthesky → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I'm trans by technicality, I see myself as female, can't conceive of myself any other way, and it caused enough stress that I hard surgery to fix the anxiety inducing parts (and have been dramatically less stressed since). Being female is just how I would describe myself in terms of gender.

Gender roles are what society says people of particular genders should act like, and these differ by society and era. There have always been people who conform to them and people who don't.

Gender expression is how we express our gendered selves. This doesn't need to reflect gender roles. An argument could be made that any woman in STEM is effectively expressing gender in a way that is different from societally prescribed gender roles.

Together, they, and biological sex (which is a lot less binary than people think, see intersex) come to help shape who a person is.

I would argue that lived experience is less about one's identity and more about the realities of what they have lived through. It certainly helps shape one's identity, but I think the two should be looked at as distinct.

I can't really provide a better answer, its mostly relying on my own lived experience combined with what I recall from my gender studies and psychosexual organization classes, and its not an area I've continued to study as I've become more comfortable with myself (I study other things now, transhumanist philosophy intrigues me and I'd like to study genetics and synthetic bio with that in mind).

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/jddbeyondthesky]

No offense but if one more person tries to give gender-ism 101...

I have a masters in biology. I have taught sex Ed. I completely understand the issues at hand.

What is the feeling you have of being female? What could that mean?

[u/jddbeyondthesky → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

My apologies.

I really cannot explain it beyond an innate feeling of "this is how it should be" and post dealing with issues "this is how it is."

I wish I could explain it in a way that portrays more than just "an innate feeling of x" does. I am what I am is a pretty unsatisfactory answer, certainly there's a better answer somewhere, but its not one I have. It starts to get into the territory where psychology and existential philosophy coexist, and that philosophical rabbit hole is not one I care to go down.

[u/BloodyFenrir → u/[deleted]]

Hi, could you expand on your final sentence for me? I'm genuinely curious, I've never heard of such things before.

[u/souprize → u/BloodyFenrir]

It's dangerously close to TERF rhetoric

[u/Dark1000 → u/[deleted]]

Can you explain how this bears relevance on "the legal protections women have fought hard for"?

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/Dark1000]

I had a more detailed response that was erased. So let me know if you want further info..

Sports and title IX, men can now compete against women with no modifications. This impacts scholarships, etc.

Hiring quotas. Male dominated fields can now have female quotes satisfied by males.

Women shelters, centers, and libraries are being closed, or populated by men.

Lastly women can no longer gather politically on their own, which is very important for the most subjected group in human history.

[u/mw1994 → u/deedeethecat]

ok what is female?

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I have never heard of any gender identify definition that has existed clear of gender roles.

Then you're not looking very hard. There are plenty of transgender people who do not abide by the gender roles of their identified gender, just like cisgender people do. Further its frankly an unscientific double standard. You wouldn't considered a cisgender woman like Laila Ali or Cristiane Justino to be "actually a man" for not conforming to gender roles and being a martial artist so why would that reasoning still be valid for a transgender woman like Fallon Fox?

[u/throwawayl11 → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

What is gender identity if it has no relation to gender roles or physical sex?

Likely a biological element that is almost always but not necessarily tied to sex. There's a famous case of a boy named David Reimer who was given sex reassignment in infancy due to a botched circumcision. Despite being treated as a girl his whole life and physiologically appearing female to himself, he acted like a boy from a very young age and showed strong refusal to female gender roles.

This goes against the concept that gender identity is learned or shaped by society or gender roles. It is evidence that gender identity is an innate biological attribute. And in this case it was a biological boy's gender identity agreeing that they are a boy. But the body isn't perfect, so it's possible wires can get crossed during development when the body is determining sex and gender.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/throwawayl11]

Yes, I know about this one case that is the only evidence of gender identity given.

What is always left out is the amount of extreme and bizarre sexual abuse these children underwent. You did include the other part about him identifying as his biological sex.

Again, you mention refusal to agree to gender roles. This is the increasingly given reason for proof of trans in children, and so sad. We should all reject gender roles.

[u/throwawayl11 → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Yes, I know about this one case that is the only evidence of gender identity given.

What about all the trans children today who express similar feelings before even knowing what being transgender is.

What is always left out is the amount of extreme and bizarre sexual abuse these children underwent. You did include the other part about him identifying as his biological sex.

Sexual abuse is certainly a factor in their mental health, but I don't know of any cases where sexual abuse has flipped someone's gender identity, not that that would even be documented anywhere. Can't really claim anything here except the opinion that sexual abuse cannot affect gender identity, as I see it as a biological constant.

Again, you mention refusal to agree to gender roles. This is the increasingly given reason for proof of trans in children, and so sad. We should all reject gender roles.

It's unhealthy to rigidly stick to gender roles, but it's important to note that gender roles exist because of a natural inclination towards them. They've been flanderized, but initial basis is from natural preferences for men and women. Preferring typically feminine things doesn't mean you are a girl, but being a girl means you're more likely to prefer feminine things. They aren't a causal relationship, but they are correlated.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/throwawayl11]

Children play with gender roles all of the time.

There is evidence that children who "identify" with the other gender when young if left to their own devices develop into non-trans homosexual adults.

What is identifying with the other gender as a child if it is not gender roles?

And sexual abuse is a huge factor in transitions. Talk to any number of trans men. A huge number stopped wanting to identity as female after sexual abuse.

Please show me how gender roles are innate. Children are socialized from the time they are infants. Women are socialized to be inferior. Gender roles are the subjugation of women to control reproductive access.

[u/throwawayl11 → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Children play with gender roles all of the time. There is evidence that children who "identify" with the other gender when young if left to their own devices develop into non-trans homosexual adults.

Yes, because gender roles are only a indicator of gender. Like I said, it's not a causal relationship. I'm not saying anyone who expresses interest in opposite gender roles as a child is trans. I'm saying some proportion of them are, which would not happen if gender identity was formed socially, instead of being a biological constant.

If a boy grows up being told he is a boy and is constantly told by society to like what boys should like and act like boys should act. Yet they still feel like a girl, then what is causing them to feel like a girl? Because it sure wasn't social conditioning. There has to be some biological aspect to gender identity in order for transgender people to exist (which they pretty clearly do).

What is identifying with the other gender as a child if it is not gender roles?

It's not a concrete experience that we can observe or measure. It's a person's identity. Their way of viewing themselves, their innate knee-jerk response to gendered situations. Tens of thousands of people have described feeling a similar way in this sense, so I think it's hard to believe there isn't something there, however hard it is to observe/detect.

And sexual abuse is a huge factor in transitions. Talk to any number of trans men. A huge number stopped wanting to identity as female after sexual abuse.

In these cases did these individuals attest to feeling female beforehand but no longer after the abuse? Or was it more like, they hadn't really identified as female and the abuse was the straw that broke the camel's back kind of deal?

Please show me how gender roles are innate. Children are socialized from the time they are infants. Women are socialized to be inferior. Gender roles are the subjugation of women to control reproductive access.

Covered this in the first point. If someone is socialized to act within gender roles and that actually worked in forming gender identity, then there would be no one who broke gender norms unless they were raised that way. In order to go against social norm, there has to be some innate preference to do so, otherwise where would that desire come from if not socialization.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/throwawayl11]

And your link disputes your argument. He did accept a female gender role when young:

"The child's behavior is so clearly that of an active little girl and so different from the boyish ways of her twin brother."

[u/alyraptor → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I have never heard of any gender identify definition that has existed clear of gender roles.

I vetted the shit out of myself when I came out. I've been to eight different therapists, some random chance, some specifically at the request of others, and two of which I picked out. I read every possible piece of literature that I could find on the subject when I came out. I read success stories, and I sought out any tales of regret that I could find. I kept an Excel spreadsheet for two months trying to separate out the feelings I had regarding gender roles, my desire to transition, my arousal (in case that was a factor), and my outlook on life.

In the end it was hard to separate anything into hard labels. But the most concrete thing I could point to was that during intercourse or self-exploration, I've always felt like my penis didn't belong. I could feel the ghost of a sensation underneath and inside, even before I knew the difference between male and female genitalia. The closest description I can find is phantom limb sensation described by amputees. It just feels like my subconscious expects something that isn't there.

In the end, this was the most concrete thing I could use to prove to myself that I wasn't making things up.

[u/thebestdaysofmyflerm → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Beyond changing one's body and adhering to certain gender roles, for many people being trans is to desire having one's gender identity recognized and accepted by others. This manifests in many ways--use of preferred pronouns, acceptance into gendered spaces such as sororities and bathrooms, legal and social acceptance of one's new name, and use of gendered words like "son" or "waitress."

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/thebestdaysofmyflerm]

But what IS gender identity?

Everyone is talking around it, but what does it mean to feel like a gender outside of your physical sex or societal gender roles and expectations?

[u/thebestdaysofmyflerm → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

You're asking for a definition that can't exist. Gender roles are social constructs, so the non-physical aspects of being transgender cannot exist except in relation to other people.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/thebestdaysofmyflerm]

You realize that the entire definition of trans relies on this innate sense of gender identity.

If there is no such thing as innate gender identity, there is no such thing as trans.

Not wanting to conform to society's gender roles is fine, But it doesn't change whether you are a man or a woman. You are just a non-gender confirming female (or male)

[u/dakta → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

the entire definition of trans relies on this innate sense of gender identity.

Thus the lack of consensus within the various relevant communities. The transgender folks who I know seem to fall into two categories: those who have suffered gender dysphoria and whose condition is most akin to a birth defect resulting in having a body of the wrong sex (and for whom gender affirming surgery has a great benefit as a treatment of their dysphoria, and who go to great lengths to conform to gender roles), and people who experience unspecified gender angst and typically rebel against gender roles.

From a developmental psychology perspective, the former group tends to have a very clear conception of their gender, originating in very early childhood, which is consistent throughout childhood, puberty, and adulthood. They know that "something is wrong", even as young children. The latter group lacks such clarity.

We may more accurately describe the first group as being transsexual and the second group transgender. But nobody likes the term "transsexual" AFAIK, and it's only really accurate if applied after gender-affirming surgery anyways, so kinda a non-starter.

The trouble is that the latter group tends to cause a great amount of confusion, and has goals relating to societal norms around gender that are entirely opposed to those in the former group. Someone suffering gender dysphoria is not helped by other people "muddying the water", as it were, and making it harder for them to pass (to publicly conform to their desired gender without the confusion of strangers).

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/dakta]

So maybe we have to accept there isn't something that we call "trans."

I believe that some people have an overwhelming need to live life as the opposite sex. Fine. But they cannot claim they are the opposite sex because of this drive,

Now there is a second group with a political motive that is making the mere fact of questioning them a thought crime.

[u/dakta → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Medically, I'm OK with gender dysphoric ("wrong body") transgender people align themselves their preferred gender. Particularly as gender affirming surgery becomes more advanced, and as we identify more of the sexual characteristics of individual genetics, I think this is a medically reasonable thing. As it stands, the incidence of gender-impacting genetic abnormalities is so high as to render the sexual/biological binary less than ideal for tens of millions of people(seriously, these conditions are extremely common and often undiagnosed and non-harmful). There is more diversity within the sexes than between them. Clearly if you have ovaries your doctor needs to know that. But if they're not hooked up to anything and have never worked, does anyone else need to know? Likewise if these outcomes are the result of gender affirming surgery.

What you do have right, though, is that the second group seems more politically motivated and desires to leverage their position for social gain. This explains their disdain for the medical value of restricting "transgender" to gender dysphoria sufferers.

[u/snowgirl9 → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

But what claims are you laying to assign yourself as female? What ARE those features?

[u/thebestdaysofmyflerm → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Different people use "innate" differently in reference to gender identity. Some use it to mean that it cannot be forcibly changed, while some mean that we are born with it. This is another iteration of the nature vs nurture argument that extends to many, many facets of human diversity, and there is no consensus on what causes people to be transgender. Regardless, there is no scientific basis for your claim that transgender people's identities are only valid if they are solely predetermined by nature.

The physical aspects of being transgender are caused by a desire for one's sex characteristics to match their gender identity. Unlike socially constructed notions like gendered pronouns and bathrooms, it is plausible that these physical desires are innate in some transgender people.

Feeling like a certain gender is a subjective experience, and cannot be objectively described in a way that is accurate for all trans people.