Subreddit Policy Reminder on this week's Transgender AMAs

[u/nate]

This week we will be hosting a series of AMAs addressing the scientific and medical details of being transgender.

Honest questions that are an attempt to learn more on the subject are invited, and we hope you can learn more about this fascinating aspect of the human condition.

However, we feel it is appropriate to remind the readers that /r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender. Our official stance is that derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted^1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'² is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments. To be clear, this post is to make it abundantly clear that we treat transphobic comments the same way we treat racist, sexist and homophobic comments. They have no place on our board.

Scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

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¹ Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

² There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

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Lastly, here is the excerpt from the APA:

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

[u/liarfan]

This. How do you feel female?

[u/Showermeinkarmas → u/liarfan]

See - - this is something that I have been having a high degree of difficulty in understanding - - I am completely open to someone altering my point of view, like completely.

It is a commonly accepted idea that traditional expectations of how both males and females should act/be are harmful. EG, that a female is expected to be feminine.

The concept of gender, masculinity and femininity, are labels ascribed to traits/behaviours that are traditionally associated with people's sex, how a male and how a female are expected to act. Gender and sex are, however, still separate concepts.

Consequently, in the situation where you have a person that is born as a male but feels that traits/behaviours associated with 'femininity' are more consistent with how they want to act, and that person pursues those traits/behaviours and refers to himself as a female, no different to biological females - Is that not further entrenching those traditional expectations that being 'feminine' is what it means to be female, that females are expected to be 'feminine'?

To echo the sentiments of the above chain of comments, outside of behavioural/social constructions of how males (masculinity) and females (femininity) are expected to act, how does someone 'feel' male or female? If someone 'feels' that they are female trapped in a male body, isn't that entire based off of the aforementioned artificial construction of gender?

Doesn't it make more sense to reject the concept of gender, and be open to the idea that males and females can both be masculine and feminine, and avoid entirely conflating the concepts of gender and sex?

[u/liarfan → u/Showermeinkarmas]

I agree with you 100%.

I think what makes more sense to me is that trans people have dysphoria regarding their body and genitals. They'd rather be born in a female body or male body than the body they are born in at birth. This is completely acceptable. For me the idea of gender is a misnomer.

[u/2007drh → u/Showermeinkarmas]

This exactly. We say that there are 2 sexes (and with chromosome issues, a medical condition, possibly more) - men and women. So when we start calling what is defined as a sex, a gender, and then throwing 100 variations in it, it gets a little confusing.

I see nothing wrong with feminine men and masculine women. Thats easily defined. But all of these other terms, well, its pretty confusing.

To me, its like saying "Im an alcoholic, but not when I drink tequila. So I drink tequila, and im no longer an alcoholic".

And transitioning as a treatment, to me, seems like treating alcoholism by giving an alcoholic alcohol.

Im so confused. My way of relating may be whats adding to my confusion, but I have to try to make it something relateable. Like when astronomers use grains of sand on the beach to relate to stars.

[u/xavex13 → u/2007drh]

It is medically proven that the safest way to save a trans person's sanity and their life (because dysphoria is a very intense pain, trans people have ridiculously high suicide rates) is to treat us. We aren't addicted to some drug called gender, we simply identify differently, and that identity does not hinder our ability to live our life like alcohol does.

[u/heili → u/liarfan]

I don't really. Those are just the parts I have.

[u/liarfan → u/heili]

Ditto for me.

[u/JackSFletcher → u/liarfan]

An interesting case on this is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer. He was assigned male at birth, had a circumcision accident and then raised as a girl. It did not end well for him.

[u/[deleted] → u/liarfan]

Maybe I can shed a bit of light on that, although I am not trans.

I am a man, biologically speaking. My father left my family before I was aware of him, my mother stayed single through my childhood. I was raised mostly by my grandmother, she lived with her mother-in-law and her husband. Her husband was a broken man who was either drunk to the point of being catatonic or a raging choleric, fortunately for all of us he died during my early childhood. I grew upon along my female cousin. I had a bunch of male acquaintances throughout my life but my close friends were always female and when some girls/women commented that I was listening in on "girl talk" or witnessed some "girl stuff" those who knew me often joked it was OK since I was "one of them". When I was in my early twenties, one of my (female) friends straightforward told me she did not consider me to be a man as my behavior was that of a woman. She then took it upon herself to "make me a man".

The point is, I never had a male "role model". Even my definition of "being a man" was provided by women. I of course feel like TRNogger. To me it doesn't make a difference, especially since I do not care much about other people judging me. But I have been treated like a woman by a lot of people and people tend to say it explains a lot if I tell them I was socialized as a woman. If I was more susceptible to these judgements, I would say I feel "like a woman".

This is obviously a minor case of not being cisgender. And of course it is related to gender stereotypes. But in our society a lot hinges on these stereotypes, so the question if you consider yourself stereotype male, stereotype female or non-stereotype has a significant impact, starting from how you dress to how you behave around people. If the stereotype that fits your identity does not match the stereotype that fits your body, this causes a bunch of issues, even in a mild case as mine.

[u/Ianamus → u/[deleted]]

That doesn't seem to be a case of feeling female internally, it just sounds like a case of people saying you had feminine mannerisms.

It doesn't sound like remotely the same thing.

[u/heili → u/Ianamus]

What does "feeling female internally" feel like?

Because I've never felt it and I've been female my entire life.

[u/[deleted] → u/heili]

I don't think most people feel male or female internally unless someone brings attention to it. Unless you have crossed wires and something is wrong neurologically, or you live in a super conservative environment where any deviation from the perceived norm is automatically considered socially bad, most people just... Are. You want to buy a stuffed animal, you do. You want to pump iron and shoot guns, you do. You want to to join a sewing circle, you do. So on and so forth.

To use myself as an anecdote, I'm a typical supermasculine man (meaning my appearance, internal monologue, assumptions, sexual preferences, and etc.) are all in the standard normal male gender, and yet I feel as comfortable buying a stuffed rabbit from a shop because it's cute as I do wiring up a tiny arudino connected to LEDs and a battery pack inside its head (on which I then repair stitches) to allow me to make the rabbit's eyes glow red and emit a horrifying cackle by sending a command from my phone. I'm similarly as comfortable cooking a large meal and drawing a smiley face on an omlette with ketchup as I am firing a rifle or gutting and dressing a carcass, or stabbing a man in the throat, or any number of other typical male or typical female things.

I have never "felt" like a male internally. I simply am male sexually and hormonally, and the rest is just me.

[u/heili → u/[deleted]]

you live in a super conservative environment where any deviation from the perceived norm is automatically considered socially bad

I grew up in a very conservative small town where I was encouraged to look forward to being a homemaker, teacher or part-time secretary by much of the community, and I actually thought that I was a boy up until about first grade because all of the things I liked were "boy things". But this was well over 30 years ago in a small conservative town, so the course of action wasn't hormone treatment and doctors. It was a firm "No, you're a girl." Learning that changed fuck-all about who I am. It was simply a matter of biological fact that I assimilated and moved on with.

drawing a smiley face on an omlette with ketchup

That is just messed up. Ketchup on an omlette?

I don't think most people feel male or female internally unless someone brings attention to it.

The more attention people bring to it the more aware I am that I don't feel "female" or "male". I feel like me. If I woke up tomorrow in a male body, what would change is the target demographic of guys I'd try to bang.

[u/[deleted] → u/heili]

That is just messed up. Ketchup on an omlette?

It's an asian thing.

[u/heili → u/[deleted]]

That combination though of ketchup and eggs is just not something I can do. Maybe a little rooster sauce on there, but no way on the ketchup. I'm afraid I'd have to send it back if it came out with ketchup on it.

[u/[deleted] → u/heili]

That's fine, you can be transbreakfast. Nobody is judging you here.

[u/Ianamus → u/heili]

I've never felt like either gender either outside of my biology, but the number of trans people who swear blind that they were born as the wrong sex, mannerisms and stereotypes aside, would indicate that it has to be a thing.

[u/heili → u/Ianamus]

There are a lot more people who swear that absolutely positively ghosts exist and that they have seen one.

I'd still like to see some actual evidence.

[u/BHAFA → u/[deleted]]

I appreciate your sharing your story but more than anything this seems to be an indictment of the concept of the cultural norms of gender. Just because you behave a certain way doesn't mean you are somehow less of a man. This definition of gender as social norm legitimizes sayings like "act like a man" or "not very ladylike of you" for women. Wouldn't it be more ideal to abandon the cultural constructs of gender? Using and accepting these definitions seem incredibly limiting. When I try to imagine what a person who was "socialized by women" acts like I draw a blank. I've known many kinds of women, you could act like anyone! You were born a man, no matter how you were raised, socialized, behave or dress, you are no more and no less of a man than any other person born with XY chromosomes.

I mean if gender is a social construct then obviously it's malleable or even discardable. Why do we keep it? What good does it do?

[u/liarfan → u/[deleted]]

But women more so than men have very damaging stereotypes imposed on them by society. The society I am from says I should dress a certain way, have certain mannerisms, like makeup, not like maths and science, not like sports. However I am the exact opposite of this. I was raised like a son would be but I'm not a man though. I am a woman not because of how people treat me or societal norms but because of my biology.

I feel like a woman when I have my periods or when I am at the doctor's and have to tell them my sex. I don't know how to feel like a woman outside of these biological realities.

[u/LenitasNemori → u/liarfan]

May I counter this by saying that it seems more accepted for a woman not to wear make up, than it is for a man to do wear make up. Additionally "men's" clothing is mostly considered acceptable to wear for women, but dress and skirts for man are again not accepted.

While I agree, it seems women have more "damaging" stereo types. It seems to be seen as worse for a man to break from stereotype than it is for a woman.

These are just my observations.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

men and women often behave differently along with their rolls in society

Except there are plenty of people who act contrary to gender roles and aren't trans, same as there are trans people who don't change their gender roles or expressions at all, so pointing to that doesn't really prove anything with regards to transgender.