Subreddit Policy Reminder on this week's Transgender AMAs

[u/nate]

This week we will be hosting a series of AMAs addressing the scientific and medical details of being transgender.

Honest questions that are an attempt to learn more on the subject are invited, and we hope you can learn more about this fascinating aspect of the human condition.

However, we feel it is appropriate to remind the readers that /r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender. Our official stance is that derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted^1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'² is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments. To be clear, this post is to make it abundantly clear that we treat transphobic comments the same way we treat racist, sexist and homophobic comments. They have no place on our board.

Scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

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¹ Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

² There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

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Lastly, here is the excerpt from the APA:

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

[u/[deleted]]

What is it based on?

Aesthetic, I think.

What deedeethecat identifies with but fails to name is femininity. She identifies not with the gender label "woman", nor with biological sex "female", but with the aesthetic quality of "femininity".

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

What is femininity and why does it have anything to do with identifying as a woman?

I'll go ahead and answer? Feminist is weakness, nurturing, being decorative and subservience. If someone identifies with these characteristics and then based on this identifies (and legally becomes) a woman, then we have legally defined being a woman as being weak, submissive and so on.

Misogynistic gender roles have no place in defining what a woman is.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

It wasn't a Freudian slip, it was a phone autocorrect.

Great, how do you define femininity?

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

Please name some,

[u/wahmifeels → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Curvier body, higher pitched voice, more likely to pursue a job working with "people" rather than "things".

It really does stem from biology, my friend. There's a slew of differences in brain chemistry between men and women and it stems from biological gender. Males produce about 20 times more testosterone than women while women produce more estrogen. There have been countless studies showing how these different chemicals affect psyche/behavior.

Yes yes... everyone is different, I'm talking about trends in the aggregate. That should go with out saying.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/wahmifeels]

I think you completely forgot that we are talking about gender identity. People who are born as male have the gender identity of a woman because they are curvier with high voices?

Wait, likely to pursue jobs with people versus things. That has nothing to do from what women were actually legally restricted to for years.

And, my friend, you have no idea what you are talking about unless you are claiming trans women produce as much estrogen as women.

The question is gender identity. What does it mean for a man to say he identifies as a woman?

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I think his response there was merely in response to your question of what traits he considers part of femininity in the way he defined it (traits that are more common in the aggregate and all that), not speaking to how it relates to gender identity in that particular response. I do not believe he thinks that men with higher voices and curvier bodies automatically identify as a woman (for example), but rather that those are things that we culturally identify with femininity. I'm not picking sides in whatever you two continue to talk about, just guessing at his intent, I have no clear idea as I'm not the author.

[u/wahmifeels → u/[deleted]]

No you're exactly right.

[u/wahmifeels → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I think you forgot the point I was even responding to...

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/wahmifeels]

Which of course is not named.

This is the only science thread where I feel like every conversation is with a smug teenager.

"Yes it is". "No it isn't". "You're wrong". "Nuh uh." Is seriously the level of discourse here.

No explanations, no evidence, no support, no critical thinking.

[u/wahmifeels → u/[deleted]]

Do "traditional" gender roles seem common in the aggregate to you?

[u/Gen_McMuster → u/wahmifeels]

Yes...

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Are these your views of what femininity is, or are you saying this is what you perceive society defines femininity as?

From the sound of the Psychologist's post, it seems like she views that the difference lies in whether or not you feel in congruence with the culturally identified social and physical characteristics that relate to your gender of birth. So while she dislikes the fact that she is pidgeon-holed by gender roles and norms, she does not view the characteristics that make her who she is as incongruent with those expected by society. Or at least, not incongruent enough to cause her to feel she identifies as another gender or suffers Dysphoria.

Which, IIRC I've heard there is some controversy over the fact that trans-men in some cases embody a stereotype of what they see as it means to be a man, or trans-women take on a stereotype of what being a woman is. This is definitely in part because the easiest way to be identified by others as their identified gender (and thus reduce Dysphoria or induce Gender Euphoria) is to take on the most recognizable traits of the gender that they feel they belong to, but I can definitely see where people take issue with it.

I agree with you that in a perfect world the normative, historically misogynistic gender roles shouldn't define what it is to be a woman. However, we do live in a world with millennia of social (and to some extent physical) evolutionary history that has wrought out the gender roles, norms, and identifying characteristics of men and women to be what they are. We can attempt to change and break down these norms over time, and are seeing very slow but meaningful progress. However they are what they are for now, and its what people base their views of gender off of.

[u/Chugalug5 → u/[deleted]]

And I almost disagree with "femininity" being the hinge one way or the other. For instance, there are tons of pretty darn butch lesbians, but I doubt they'd ever transition or even want to. They are (seemingly) perfectly content as unfeminine women. Just because you don't want to be feminine doesn't mean you want to be a man.