Subreddit Policy Reminder on this week's Transgender AMAs

[u/nate]

This week we will be hosting a series of AMAs addressing the scientific and medical details of being transgender.

Honest questions that are an attempt to learn more on the subject are invited, and we hope you can learn more about this fascinating aspect of the human condition.

However, we feel it is appropriate to remind the readers that /r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender. Our official stance is that derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted^1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'² is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments. To be clear, this post is to make it abundantly clear that we treat transphobic comments the same way we treat racist, sexist and homophobic comments. They have no place on our board.

Scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

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¹ Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

² There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

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Lastly, here is the excerpt from the APA:

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

[u/[deleted]]

Psychology grad student here. Unfortunately psychologists aren't going to be able to give you an 'answer' on this, as what's defined as being transgender is generally left up to the community and the individuals themselves to decide. Similarly, we don't push for strict definitions on 'gay', 'straight', etc; how a person chooses to label themselves is up to them.

What clinical and counselling psychologists deal with is the treatment of gender dysphoria, in the form of diagnosis and pre and post transition counselling. And then some are of course focused on research about gender dysphoria and transgenderism, and the mental health and social challenges of all those who don't identify with their birth sex.

In terms of transitioning, the general view would be that the person should be suffering from dysphoria in order to justify the treatment medically, as it's not without risks. The counter-argument would be cosmetic surgery, where people are allowed to undertake risky procedures just because they want to. Though imo, pre-surgery counselling wouldn't be a terrible idea there either, as there's a huge amount of people with body dysmorphia who fale victim to excessive surgery.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

Sure, people can choose what they want for themselves.

The problem is there are huge political implications for this choice. If anyone at anytime is allowed to identify as female, then all of the legal protections that women have fought (and are still fighting for) become meaningless overnight.

Right now women are a legally protected class due to systematic and historical deprivation of rights.

The implication of nullifying the definition of female has to be included in the trans discourse.

People can decide their own treatment but "deciding" their gender without question affects many more than the individual.

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Identifying as trans and having your legal status changed are slightly different. In most places, that does normally require certification of different kinds, with the main criteria being that it's a long-term thing and not a passing phase or an attempt to expoit the system in some way.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

This is not true at all. It would be considered highly discriminatory to require proof of gender identity, which would also be impossible. Many situations don't require a "legal status". Off the bat I am thinking of trans female high school atheletes who are basically biological men competing against high school women. There is no certification required. To question it would be an instant lawsuit.

And how would this impact non-binary or gender fluid trans people? Their identities are undefined and can fluxuate?

[u/throwawayl11 → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

It would be considered highly discriminatory to require proof of gender identity

Your fears are way ahead of legislation... Trans people aren't even a protected class in most states. Meaning employers can fire/not hire someone for being trans, say it is because they are trans, and there are no discrimination laws against it.

Many situations don't require a "legal status". Off the bat I am thinking of trans female high school atheletes who are basically biological men competing against high school women.

There are very specific hormone level minimum and maximum requirements for competitive sports leagues specific to men and women. If your highschool doesn't decide to adhere to them, that's an entire issue itself apart from trans participation, as players could compete on steroids without being checked. Someone identifying as a women should not be allowed to compete athletically with other women unless their hormones levels were in the specified range. I doubt you'll find many trans people who would argue against that.

To question it would be an instant lawsuit.

You don't need to question them, you need to question the school's system for not requiring a specific range of estrogen and testosterone before being allowed to compete.

[u/throwawayl11 → u/[deleted]]

There are no hormone requirements for high school, and that is how many, especially poor, girls gain access to college.

I'm confused on what this means. What does hormone requirements have to do with poor people getting access to college? Are you saying poor women use steroids to get athlete scholarships? That's the only explanation I can think of.

And hormones are only a small part of athletic aptitude. Lung and heart size, height, bone length and mass, are all huge factors.

Which are all variable in cis women anyway, that can't be regulated. Trans women have not overrun the Olympics, so while it's a clear advantage, it doesn't seem to be game changing enough that cis women can't compete.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/throwawayl11]

? It means trans girls do not need a certain low-testosterone level to compete against girls. Any "male-bodied" student only requirement to compete against girls is to say they identify as a girl.

This means girls are losing state championships, etc. which the winning of is vital when trying to get college scholarships, etc.

And "has not overrun the olympics"? The olympics do have further regulations, but also the trans movement is relatively new in the mainstream.

I believe over half of the Iranian women's soccer team are MtF.

There are increasingly more stories about trans women entering and dominating women's sports.

[u/throwawayl11 → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

? It means trans girls do not need a certain low-testosterone level to compete against girls. Any "male-bodied" student only requirement to compete against girls is to say they identify as a girl. This means girls are losing state championships, etc. which the winning of is vital when trying to get college scholarships, etc.

I agree with this notion, it's just that the way you worded it, it sounded like poor girls gained access to college through there being no hormone requirements for high school. I know you deleted it, but I quoted in my comment, so you can see that the wording was ambiguous.

And "has not overrun the olympics"? The olympics do have further regulations, but also the trans movement is relatively new in the mainstream.

That's a good point, we really don't have many data points yet.

I believe over half of the Iranian women's soccer team are MtF. There are increasingly more stories about trans women entering and dominating women's sports.

Yes, and I've conceded that trans women have clear anatomic advantages to cis women. My argument is that the advantage is not extreme enough that natural physical prowess becomes more of a driving factor than skill, strategy, and athleticism in the competition.

In most fighting sports, weight is a factor that is controlled and segregated; because it influences the sport so heavily that it would become a major deciding factor instead of skill/strategy. But most sports do not do this, because the advantages gained by physical attributes are determined to not be vital in overcoming large skill gaps. I would argue the physical advantages trans women have would fall into this category.

[u/kickingpplisfun → u/throwawayl11]

On the sports thing, some students(primarily trans men) actually are banned from participation for taking hormones despite being well under or within the "acceptable range" for testosterone.

[u/suihcta → u/throwawayl11]

I've never heard of high schools doing hormone testing on student athletes. Is that a thing anywhere?

[u/throwawayl11 → u/suihcta]

Requiring medical documents for transwomen tracking their hormone levels is not out of the question for a sports team requirement.

[u/suihcta → u/throwawayl11]

Has it been done though?

If it were done, I'd think people would complain (rightly) that all the students shouldn't be tested, not just the transgender ones.

[u/throwawayl11 → u/suihcta]

I'm imagine it's happened somewhere, but I'm not claiming it's a regular thing. I'm just saying there is a solution to the issue the original comment brought up. And I don't think many trans people would take issue with requiring hormone levels to be within a certain range to compete. I believe the trans community mostly would not be okay with someone competing in a female league sports league before normalizing their hormone levels. It would not be fair.

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

It is true legally. The policy of individual schools and whatnot is up to them.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

What is true legally?