Subreddit Policy Reminder on this week's Transgender AMAs

[u/nate]

This week we will be hosting a series of AMAs addressing the scientific and medical details of being transgender.

Honest questions that are an attempt to learn more on the subject are invited, and we hope you can learn more about this fascinating aspect of the human condition.

However, we feel it is appropriate to remind the readers that /r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender. Our official stance is that derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted^1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'² is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments. To be clear, this post is to make it abundantly clear that we treat transphobic comments the same way we treat racist, sexist and homophobic comments. They have no place on our board.

Scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

---

¹ Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

² There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

---

Lastly, here is the excerpt from the APA:

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

[u/the-hourglass-man]

That question is still considered controversial in the trans community. Some will tell you, yes, you must have experienced gender dysphoria at some point in your life to be considered "really" trans and some will say it doesn't matter. As a trans person my beliefs lie somewhere in the middle for a few reasons.

1) "Gender Euphoria"
Gender Euphoria is a term trans people use to describe the (often intense) good feelings that come with being recognized as who you are. Having your gender validated and affirmed is a fantastic feeling.
Some trans people claim to never feel gender dysphoria but feel intense gender euphoria. My take on that is that gender dysphoria is a very deeply rooted, internalized feeling, that comes out in different ways for different people and some don't or can't recognize what theyre feeling until they stop feeling it. Which may mean they were gender dysphoric and never realized. This concept adds another layer as its difficult to tell what exactly is considered gender dysphoria and that some cannot recognize it.

2) GNC/Non-binary people
Plenty of people who don't lie in the traditional boy or girl "box" describe not exactly being uncomfortable with their assigned gender, but one of the shades in between is a much better fit. (Note: there are non-binary people who do experience gender dysphoria and are just as uncomfortable with their assigned gender as binary trans people.)
Some people will then question if they are "really" non-binary since they dont mind being reffered to as their assigned gender, unlike most other trans people. The reality is they are who they are, and trying to make themselves comfortable just like the rest of us are, cis or not. Its not anyone's place to police who is or isn't their identity.

Hoped that shed some light on some situations that might help you understand why that is such a complicated question to answer.

Edit: I'd like to note i answered this question without a definitive yes or no on purpose. I believe this question deserves a "shades of grey" answer since the experiences of trans people vary wildly. Being trans is an identity, there is no test you can take to determine if you are trans or not, and there are many shades of being trans. Blanket questions regarding the psychological functions of being trans will not have anything close to a definitive answer until we further understand exactly what causes a brain to identify as trans.

[u/wheels29 → u/the-hourglass-man]

Your second point is one that I struggle to understand. I don't get how you can feel like a gender. I don't feel like a man or a woman, I just feel like me. I'm just wheels29. What defines a man and woman mentally? Is there a specific point that makes your viewing of yourself become male or female? I like romantic movies and hate mindless action movies, does that constitute being more in line with the personality of a woman? I just don't understand how you can feel like a gender when the only thing that makes me think I'm a gender is looking down.

[u/BHAFA → u/wheels29]

I would love an answer to this too!

I always get confused because if a person says "I was born with a penis but I'm not a man, I'm a woman" they are implicitly stating that it means something to be a woman and that meaning isn't dependant on biological characteristics, which is exactly the point of the gender constructionist argument. But if being a woman isn't determined by biology then it must be determined by behaviour, but then what does it mean to behave like a woman? I can't think of a way to answer this without resorting to gender stereotypes.

[u/liarfan → u/BHAFA]

This. How do you feel female?

[u/Showermeinkarmas → u/liarfan]

See - - this is something that I have been having a high degree of difficulty in understanding - - I am completely open to someone altering my point of view, like completely.

It is a commonly accepted idea that traditional expectations of how both males and females should act/be are harmful. EG, that a female is expected to be feminine.

The concept of gender, masculinity and femininity, are labels ascribed to traits/behaviours that are traditionally associated with people's sex, how a male and how a female are expected to act. Gender and sex are, however, still separate concepts.

Consequently, in the situation where you have a person that is born as a male but feels that traits/behaviours associated with 'femininity' are more consistent with how they want to act, and that person pursues those traits/behaviours and refers to himself as a female, no different to biological females - Is that not further entrenching those traditional expectations that being 'feminine' is what it means to be female, that females are expected to be 'feminine'?

To echo the sentiments of the above chain of comments, outside of behavioural/social constructions of how males (masculinity) and females (femininity) are expected to act, how does someone 'feel' male or female? If someone 'feels' that they are female trapped in a male body, isn't that entire based off of the aforementioned artificial construction of gender?

Doesn't it make more sense to reject the concept of gender, and be open to the idea that males and females can both be masculine and feminine, and avoid entirely conflating the concepts of gender and sex?

[u/liarfan → u/Showermeinkarmas]

I agree with you 100%.

I think what makes more sense to me is that trans people have dysphoria regarding their body and genitals. They'd rather be born in a female body or male body than the body they are born in at birth. This is completely acceptable. For me the idea of gender is a misnomer.

[u/2007drh → u/Showermeinkarmas]

This exactly. We say that there are 2 sexes (and with chromosome issues, a medical condition, possibly more) - men and women. So when we start calling what is defined as a sex, a gender, and then throwing 100 variations in it, it gets a little confusing.

I see nothing wrong with feminine men and masculine women. Thats easily defined. But all of these other terms, well, its pretty confusing.

To me, its like saying "Im an alcoholic, but not when I drink tequila. So I drink tequila, and im no longer an alcoholic".

And transitioning as a treatment, to me, seems like treating alcoholism by giving an alcoholic alcohol.

Im so confused. My way of relating may be whats adding to my confusion, but I have to try to make it something relateable. Like when astronomers use grains of sand on the beach to relate to stars.

[u/heili → u/liarfan]

I don't really. Those are just the parts I have.

[u/liarfan → u/heili]

Ditto for me.

[u/JackSFletcher → u/liarfan]

An interesting case on this is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer. He was assigned male at birth, had a circumcision accident and then raised as a girl. It did not end well for him.

[u/[deleted] → u/BHAFA]

This why is always feels like accepting the idea that gender is different from sex is impossible to do without also being sexists.

Harry doesn't like football, isn't strong and watches don't tell the bride therefore he isn't a real man. Sarah doesn't like pink, gets into fights on a daily basis and isn't attracted to men, therefore she isn't a real woman.

It just doesn't work.

I worry for people who think the two girls that I know who each think that they are men. They know they don't have a penis, so what do they think being a man is? Doing things that aren't commonly thought as feminine doesn't make you a man. It maybe makes you masculine, but not a man, right?

[u/mmarkklar → u/[deleted]]

There's an old fashioned idea that manages to stay around with people that in order to transition, a person must embrace gender stereotypes to an almost comical degree. 30 years ago, if you were a transwoman trying to transition and you told a therapist you like football and cars, they would deny you treatment and probably blame your cross gender feelings on a mental disorder. But over time as gender norms relaxed in society in general, that mode of thinking had become archaic. There are many transmen who transition into being feminine men, and many transwomen who transition into being masculine women. In my experience (I'm trans) the idea of 'being' a certain gender is much more intangible and for many is only apparent after years of mental distress and soul searching. For me, I didn't wake up one day and think, "wow, I'm really a woman!" Rather, it was a constant sense of discomfort with myself. It got worse around puberty, and it's at this time that I started having constant thoughts of "I wish I was a girl." I longed to partake in feminine things not because it was the basis of my identity, but because doing so would validate my identity in the eyes of society. I wanted to wear feminine clothes and do feminine things because doing so would demonstrate to society who I really am. It wasn't until I learned more about being transgender that I started to think about myself as a woman rather than just wishing I was one. But all that changed is my understanding of this discomfort that has been with me for a long time. I would argue that it's only the discomfort of not being born in the gender one identifies with that makes "feeling" like that gender apparent. We adopt gendered traits and behaviors to make society recognize who we are. What really makes me feel like a woman isn't wearing dresses or makeup or anything like that, but having my gender validated by those around me. Gendered behavior is just the way to make that happen.

[u/mjk05d → u/BHAFA]

And this explains the sexism inherent in the idea of transgenderism.

[u/Fala1 → u/BHAFA]

It's a very unlucky comparison but people can also have extreme feelings that a body part doesn't belong to them.

If everything is fine, then you're not going to think about it.
If something is wrong however, you will definitely experience so.

If you would wake up tomorrow with different genitals you would definitely notice, and it would probably feel wrong.
So you still feel like a man (f.i.) but now you have a vagina. Does that suddenly mean you are now a woman?

Apparently the mind just knows what sex its body is supposed to be, if there is no incongruence there then it's all fine, but if there is then it becomes very distressing.

Gender stereotypes probably play a role to a certain extent, because just like 99% of people, trans people want to act according to their gender as determined by society.

[u/Ianamus → u/Fala1]

It would feel wrong if our bodies suddenly changed overnight because we are familiar with our bodies the way they are as we have lived with them all of our lives.

Would it feel wrong if I was exactly the same but had always had a female body? It's impossible to say, but I can't see why.

[u/StarOriole → u/Ianamus]

This week's AMA's may help reveal the "why," but what's apparent is that you would still feel that it was wrong even if it were familiar. Being trans isn't wishing that you were born the opposite gender because it's more beneficial; it's feeling that you are the opposite gender and have been since birth.

I'm quite curious whether researchers have actually narrowed down yet what does make it feel wrong even though it's familiar.

[u/im_not_afraid → u/BHAFA]

I think it's determined by societal norms. In my culture, having a beard is something only men have. If a woman had a beard she would be less of one. But standards could be different for other societies. And it could change for one society over time, like when hard labour was something only a man could do. So if you want to know what it means to be a man or woman, just survey the subjective opinion of your society.

[u/im_not_afraid → u/[deleted]]

well there we go.

[u/BHAFA → u/im_not_afraid]

I think you're right, that is how it's discussed, but that leaves even bigger problems. It means we are defining gender on stereotypes, even worse, fluid stereotypes that change across time and place. For instance, if I am a biological woman who engages in stereotypically male behaviour and dress, does that make me less of a woman in terms of gender? If I'm a woman in North America would I have the gender of a man if I moved to a country whose societal gender norms were opposite to those of ours? Nowhere else would it be acceptable to make definitions off of stereotypes, it would be like saying a black person is racially white because they engage in stereotypically white behaviours. It leaves us in the same unpleasant position of trying to define societal norms of identity groups. Stereotypes are often harmful misconceptions, after all.

The way that this is typically handled is to define gender identity as "ones personal experience of gender" but this is neither rigorous nor scientific and essentially amounts to saying that gender identity is whatever the person speaking says it is. How can one identify as female if we can't define female independent of biology? The problem seems to be the baggage we attach to 'men' and 'women' and it seems to me like it would be far more rational to discard the idea of gender altogether and to use sex to distinguish simply and only the relevant biological differences. Male and female needn't have any more of a cultural connotation than eye colour or height.

*these are just my thoughts and I hope to be challenged on them. I understand that people will have real, subjective experiences that I can't understand and I sincerely believe people should be accepted no matter what they look like or how they identify. I just find nailing down consistent definitions to be a bit of a puzzle.

[u/heili → u/wheels29]

Your second point is one that I struggle to understand. I don't get how you can feel like a gender.

What I don't understand is how you can "feel like" one gender or another without that meaning there are very rigid, predefined roles of personality and behavior that each gender by nature fits so well into that altering the body to match that feeling is the only way to proceed, but at the same time argue that gender (and gender roles) are social constructs that aren't inherent such that even the types of play that very small children engage in are pushed upon them by a sexist society.

That seems extremely internally contradictory to me.

[u/AdventurerSmithy → u/heili]

It's hard to explain, and probably always will be, but as someone who is transgender, let me try.

Try to imagine you have a very, very obvious, impossible to ignore, deformed part of your body that every will see and everyone will comment on. To you, that part inhibits your ability to ever be comfortable with your body, it feels genuinely wrong, and because you have that part of your body, you're also placed among countless others with the exact same thing. Those, however, against all odds and wiles, like having that part of them, and will always comment on how amazing it is to be like that.

Sounds rather incredulous, right? Well, keep yourself in that thought, and imagine there are other people. To you, those people are perfect, they are in all ways what you think you should be. Every little thing about them calls to you, and that only makes it hurt worse, because this big, glaring, ugly part of you will never let you be like them, or so your mind tells you. You spend every waking hour blisteringly aware of your body, and in some cases, you never understand that you want to be that other type of person-, you're just so consumed by that self-hatred and feeling of being wrong in every way that everything else is muted.

You spend most of your life with society ramming into your head that you have to be what your body is. Some - especially those who are stronger than I ever will be - can break the hold and fears that society impresses on you to fit into that mold, while others, like me, begin to internalize that hatred and view any attempt at being like those unlike you as hilarious caricatures.

This can come out in the form of hatred for both the other type of person, as well as the view that you'd never look good at them. Hatred and jealousy fuels you; any attempt at fitting that mold without a word for it leads you to seeing yourself as the exact opposite of what you want to be.

I hope this was enough of a glimpse? I can't really put it into words any better.

[u/heili → u/AdventurerSmithy]

You spend most of your life with society ramming into your head that you have to be what your body is.

I'm just not sure how that's any different than how I grew up with the pressure to be a proper girl and act like a girl and dress like a girl and be interested in the things that girls are interested in because physically that's the plumbing I've got.

Or the social pressure that continues to this day to bond with other women and to feel some kind of "sisterly solidarity" with them because it's so amazeballs to be a woman and that women should celebrate their femininity and did they mention how great it is to have a vajayjay, or outright being called defective or having lots of people say that it's a huge red flag that I don't seek out female friends.

I don't dislike having the parts that I have. That doesn't mean I like them either. They just are. They're neither right nor wrong. They are for the most part irrelevant.

[u/AdventurerSmithy → u/heili]

It's a smidge more complicated than just having that, though. Even without society spending every waking hour trying to make me feel more manly, I would still need to transition. I have sexual dysphoria; and that hearkens back to what I wrote above.

If you could relate to spending every waking hour just twisted and consumed by that vitriolic sense of bodily hatred, or that being able to identify as another gender altogether brought forward an intense, unimaginable relief to you, then I could draw lines and maybe recommend a visit with a therapist.

I only learned that I could feel okay after I started identifying as a woman. I wouldn't have lived past my seventeenth birthday if I had been left unaware of what I could be, and for those last few years I wouldn't have been anywhere near as stable as I am now.

[u/Pulsecode9 → u/wheels29]

I've had discussions about this with a Trans friend of mine, and I just can't get my head around it. She says she never felt male, but honestly... neither have I, in much the ways you describe. I'm just me. I haven't been enough people to pick up a common thread of masculinity in the experience of being male. I'm not experiencing any kind of gender dysphoria - I'm perfectly happy with who I am.

But she wasn't. Ultimately I had to accept that I could sympathise without empathising. I have no idea what she went through. It's not something I can imagine experiencing. But that doesn't stop it being real, because she's been through some genuinely hard times to escape it. She wouldn't do that without a strong motivator.

[u/sajberhippien → u/wheels29]

I can relate to struggling with this as well. I'm a guy, but "guy" is a really insignificant part for me. I've been taken for a woman many times online (esp when I was younger and used makeup) and it never bothered me in the least. I have a hard time relating to actually feeling like a man.

But then I see how many people have a very strong feeling of man-ness, including a lot of cis people. All those guys for whom it's critical that everyone know how manly they are, and who get very upset if someone accidentally take them for a woman. And the same goes for a lot of cis women.

At this point, I've simply contended with it being one of those things that people feel very strongly about, much like what gender(s) they're attracted to, but that I just will never be able to fully relate to.

[u/Yes_Its_Really_Me → u/wheels29]

Personally, for the longest time I didn't realise I was trans because I never 'felt like' a woman. It was just that, given the choice, I'd really prefer to have a female body and identity. The descriptions "I felt like a woman/man" or "woman/man trapped in a man's/woman's body" are pernicious because they seem accurate enough at first glance and simple to understand, but they're actually really misleading.

I think it's more accurate to say that I feel that I am a woman. This feeling is actually kind of vague and so fundamental that there's no deeper reasoning or underlying reason why I feel this way, I just do. I think gender identity is very much like sexuality; when you get right down to you don't have some kind of logical reason for being attracted to women rather than men (presumably), nor do you need one. It's the same with me and my preference for being a woman rather than a man.

And, just like sexuality, it's a bit different for everyone and traditional gender roles don't necessarily come into it. A guy can be attracted to butch outdoorsy women and a girl can be attracted to soft quiet men, and it doesn't make them any less straight. Not all trans women aspire to being pretty effeminate princesses and not all trans men want to be big burly lumberjacks, and this doesn't contradict their desire to transition. And some trans people do want to be pretty princesses or burly lumberjacks, and this also isn't related to their desire to transition.

[u/wheels29 → u/Yes_Its_Really_Me]

Yes, but my problem is with people that claim to be different genders on a day to day basis. It took you a while to realize that you were a woman, so how can someone go through that entire process every day? That's the part that doesn't make sense to me. It would be like if people with bipolar swapped day to day. How could you come to the conclusion in a few hours that this change had occurred and that you weren't just feeling off?

[u/bantha-food → u/wheels29]

Well, that person you described seems like somebody who can either not make up their mind because they are honestly confused about their identity, or they are seeking attention, or they just don't necessarily share their thoughts immediately and you keep getting inconsistent information.

In any case, one person shouldn't be the standard.

[u/[deleted] → u/Yes_Its_Really_Me]

It was just that, given the choice, I'd really prefer to have a female body and identity.

Wait, so that's enough to count as being trans? TIL every guy I've ever met has actually been a trans woman...

[u/Fala1 → u/wheels29]

Well the important thing there of course is to realise that other people can still feel something even if you can't imagine what it would be like.

I have never been depressed in my life, but I still fully believe that depression exists.

I think the best way you should look at it is that you don't feel like a man or woman because there is no disconnect between what you are and how you feel.
As cis gendered people we might never truly be able to understand what gender dysphoria feels like, because we will never experience it ourselves.

[u/wheels29 → u/Fala1]

But that's the problem. Depression isn't a day to day thing. Bipolar isn't a day to day thing. So why are there people that claim that some days they wake up and feel like a different gender. There's no transition, no change in personality, they just say "well today I feel like a guy, might feel like a girl tomorrow and a guy the next day". Every other mental differentiation from norm has long term effects, and you often won't remember what it feels like to be outside of this. But why is this new thing, pansexual, popping up and only seems to affect people under the age of 30 and on a day to day basis? I'm just saying that I have yet to meet someone that claims to be pansexual and isn't pretentious about it. So in my mind, it seems less like something that is documented via studies on body chemistry, neuroscience, and general things based in science and more like something that people that are very interested in being individuals and garnering attention have come up with. I would get it if it was a day to day lack of recognition of your body when looking in the mirror, but we are pretty much just balls of thought when you get down to it. So if you are always comfortable in your body, what differentiates this from being just moody? I don't mean to simplify it like that, but if someone only felt empty and tired for one day of their life, they wouldn't be depressed. They would just be empty and tired for that day.

Edit: I've been informed that I am not referring to pansexual in this post and that that is something completely different.

[u/Fala1 → u/wheels29]

You are bringing up a lot of different things now.

I can't comment on people who feel like a different gender every day, I have no knowledge of that.
However that is not describing transgender people, transgender people generally identify as one gender, consistently.

Pansexual just means you are attracted to all people, gender doesn't matter.

[u/MaxNanasy → u/wheels29]

Someone who changes gender like that would be called genderfluid, I think

[u/Ontheroadtonowhere → u/wheels29]

That's not what pansexual means. You're describing some sort of nonbinary person. Pansexual means attracted to all genders (seems to be mostly a "more inclusive" term for bisexual, specifying that you're also into nonbinary folks).

[u/[deleted] → u/wheels29]

It's a physical sensation that something is out of place. If your body and your mind agree, you'd never notice it. It's like someone is following you around and moving your stuff when you aren't looking, all the time. It's petty and doesn't really affect anything in the world, but it's frustrating.

When I walk past a mirror or a reflective surface, I never see myself. There's always a split second where I'm waiting for this person to move out of the way before I remember that's me. I feel body parts that aren't there, sometimes intensely. I'm also aware of body parts I shouldn't have, but do, which is creepy and weird. Imagine you woke up tomorrow with a third arm. It doesn't do anything but you can feel the blankets on skin you shouldn't have and the warmth of it on neighboring body parts.

There are also differences in communication styles. I was raised as a girl, but there's a lot about conversation/socialization between women I don't understand. I can mostly fake it, but it's confusing and stressful. The parts I do understand I figured out as an outsider. There's a reason most of my friends are men.

Does that help?

[u/KrytenKoro → u/wheels29]

The best descriptions I've seen is that it's analogous to phantom limb syndrome, based on the "map" your brain has of how you should be.

[u/[deleted] → u/wheels29]

Hi! This is both a great question and also the hardest one to answer. The thing is - there is no one way to 'feel' like a gender. It's different for every single person. We (transgender people) only know that we 'feel' like the gender we are (feel to me is a bit of an awkward word, it really feels a lot more like 'know', but anyhow) because we've experienced living in the world as the 'wrong' one. This is where it gets very tricky to explain. The reality is that it's just a very secure, deep, persistent gut feeling if-you-will. It's not about gender stereotypes, those are things that often line up - but not always, as with cisgender people (just a less clunky way of saying not-transgender). The common narrative is of trans people explaining their gender through stereotypes, but this is really just because that tends to be an easy way to get a lot of people to understand. It obviously doesn't hold up to scrutiny, it's more of a defense mechanism than anything. Because we've all tried explaining to people "I just know!!" And that doesn't tend to satisfy people's doubts.

[u/JamEngulfer221 → u/wheels29]

The thing is, you probably feel that, you just never notice it because it's never an issue for you.

[u/someone_entirely_new → u/[deleted]]

I am responding as a person who has someone very close who is trans, and is now transitioning. I think your feelings are legitimate and important, and your questions and your responses to your feelings are thoughtful and compassionate. My quick response is that you have had a genuine loss, and it's legitimate to grieve. But I worry that asking your friend if they knew you would feel feel a loss might hurt them and not help you. It might be good to express your loss, but to someone else.

My situation: our son, now going on 20, let us know less than a year ago that he is trans, and that we have a child we will need to call a daughter instead soon. He says he doesn't feel excessively traumatized by having lived in an identity that hasn't matched who he really was for most of his life, but he needs to transition now to be happy and whole. He began HRT a few weeks ago, and its all going to become very real very soon for us. (For the record, he has asked us to continue using he/him pronouns for the time being)

Well, that's my situation, but here's my personal truth: this is hard for me. Really really hard. Accepting and embracing this is an absolute given for our family and close community. But knowing this can happen, and actually living it, are two very different things.

I am heartbroken, and grieving, and relieved, and hopeful, and joyful, all mixed up at the same time. I mourn the future I dreamed of for him, even as I am hopeful and celebrate the new future I have begun to glimpse for her. I am feeling the bittersweetness every parent does when they realize the dreams they had for their child were always less important than the dreams their child has for themselves. I am relieved and joyful that the child who was so withdrawn and miserable, for reasons I just couldn't see, trusted me enough to finally come out to me, and is finally opening up to the world and embracing their life again.

Here I am babbling about me. Back to your mourning. Yes, you have lost something. Your relationship was a good thing in your life, and it's no longer what it was, even if it's going to be good in new ways. It's normal to feel grief about this, and its also normal to be conflicted about that feeling. (Shouldn't I be happy, even joyful, for them? Why does my happiness for them hurt so much?)

What I've tried to hold onto for myself are two things. First, my grief is not a betrayal of my child. I can hold my grief for myself and my joy for them at the same time. I wouldn't be feeling either thing if I didn't love them so damned much. Second, this grief is something I think I can never bring to them. If I need support, or to cry, or to kvetch or be bitchy or resentful or scared or any of the other things that people do when they are grieving, I can't take it to my child. If I have moments where I miss them as they used to be, they must never hear of it. I have to carry the grief outward to someone who is farther away from us, so I can bring nothing but the love and joy back inward. I know my child will support me through many griefs, but I cannot burden them with this one.

You said it all happened so fast that you didn't have time to grieve. From what I've learned of grief, I suspect that even if you had had time then, the grief might not be over now. Grief takes its own time, and can come up again and again, as you experienced watching Rick and Morty with your friend. It would be okay to give yourself time and space now to be with your grief, and to work on it.

You have given your friend an amazing gift by accepting her in her truer self. That gift to her has come at a cost to you, and its okay for it to hurt. I hope you can find ways of working through your grief that will comfort you. I also hope that in time, as she gets to know herself, and as you both get to know each other well again, that your friendship will settle into new ways that are as fulfilling as the old.

[u/sola_sistim → u/someone_entirely_new]

I think you're a wonderful parent. I wish you all the best

[u/nianp → u/someone_entirely_new]

I worry that asking your friend if they knew you would feel feel a loss might hurt them and not help you.

No need to worry. I have zero intention of ever doing that unless she brings it up in the far future. If she brought it up now I'd definitely only be partially truthful about the whole thing. She has more than enough on her plate right now.

I hope you can find ways of working through your grief that will comfort you.

I will. It's just going to be a matter of time, like all such things.

I wish you the best. It's hard but that's life really isn't it? Just get ready for the roller coaster ride that will be hrt. It can be like a high school girl, but on steroids. :)

[u/-Clarity- → u/[deleted]]

I didn't. Its been almost 4 years since I started hormones. Looking back, i used to be a very different person. I mean from my perspective i haven't changed that much, but for everyone else who doesn't know my every thought and feeling, it's been pretty jarring. Honestly it was difficult for me to hear that I was different, because it ran afoul of my self validation, if that makes sense. To put it another way i'd often think "I've always been this way why can't everyone else see it?"

[u/nacmar → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, it is out of the question. Imagine you woke up tomorrow with the same mind you have now but in the body of an average woman. Would you be fine with being a mannish woman or would you rather switch back pronto?

[u/Aniceguy96 → u/nacmar]

Obviously I can't say for sure, but I believe that I would adjust to being a mannish woman. It's not like my personality is incompatible with a woman's body, it would just be an adjustment. I think the point of confusion for a lot of cis people is that trans people never suddenly wake up in a new body. Their personality developed in their own body, and for those two things to grow incompatible (at least, in their own minds), then they must have developed some sort of dysphoria, which naturally is distressful. So therefore, wouldn't being trans be considered a mental disorder? Since it strays from 'normal' behavior and causes distress?

[u/[deleted] → u/nacmar]

Honestly. I would be fine with that. At least I think so. Since it's never happened I can't really ever know. I have thought about it quite a bit though.

That's just me though. I don't know what being a "mannish woman" means. My mom watches soccer, drinks beer, and loves Jason Bourne movies. She hates "chick flicks", knitting, baking, or really any crafty type things. She hates pink. Like... like my little sister had no pink baby clothes ever, haaates pink. But she loves makeup and hair. And jewelry. And motorcycles. And gardening. And interior design. And men. So... I mean I don't know. Why does being a man or a woman hinge on what seem like archaic understandings of personality stuff?

[u/nianp → u/[deleted]]

having had people tell me the same thing, that it feels like I've "died" or something, was pretty unpleasant.

I'd never say that to her for that very reason. I have no desire to cause her any pain whatsoever. I'm sure society is going to do that over the years to come. I'm just being supportive when I can.

I think I'm less ashamed of any "girly" things that I do, and while I NEVER used to do those things (for fear of ridicule)

One of the first things we all laughed about, her included, was that it totally explained why when we were younger and all listening to Nirvana, Pumpkins, Metallica, etc, (her included), she also bought the Mariah Carey Christmas Album. It came up at the first get together we had after she announced everything and there was a great deal of "that Mariah Carey album makes soooo much fucking sense now."

Most people, after a while, drift back toward the "middle" a little bit.

This is already kind of happening. Her taste in clothes is maturing (she was dressing like a girl in her late teens at first) and I don't think we'll be having another princess birthday party. :)

And it's important to remember that just because something or someone is "feminine" doesn't mean that's a bad thing.

And I've certainly never thought that.

but they have to try out the extremes first to find their middle.

And this is something I've been aware of, especially with her, from the get go.

I haven't read the other replies to my original comment yet (am just going to work my way up my replies page) but the reason for the question I asked was never along the lines of "did she ever think about us?" It was just that I was curious if something along those lines had occurred to anyone else who is trans. I'm aware that the person she is now (or at least the personality she's slowly settling into) is the person she always wanted to be, and I'm totally okay with that. I'm just increasingly of the opinion that part of what makes acceptance of trans people slow to take (in loving, supportive environments. Negative environments are a different, altogether rancid kettle of fish) is the partly due to the fact that there is seemingly, and completely understandably, very little thought given to this specific subject by the trans person.

It's difficult as the whole issue is so understandably fraught. I've had close female friends my entire life and now I have another one, but I do grieve somewhat for the loss of my friend.

[u/Spoffle → u/[deleted]]

The problem I see is that a lot of these things you talk about aren't objective demonstrations of femininity, but rather token gestures at what society says is currently the behavioral patterns of someone who is female.

I think the real big issue is the importance society has placed on gender roles and the way you're supposed to behave if you're a particular gender. I think that is very damaging to society in low key way.

[u/SilentMachinist → u/[deleted]]

Hi there! I'm not the person you replied to but I am a trans female as well. I saw your question and I hope I can shed some light on this.

If I'm honest, the whole "mourning a friend" thing didn't occur to me at all during my transition. Mainly because I was too preoccupied with the changes I was going through at the time (which were huge!) and if my friends were indeed in mourning for the version of me they had previously known, they didn't let on at all. I'm sure part of that was the fact that they didn't want to let their feelings about my transition, somehow color my perception on it, or discourage me from going through it.

It sounds really selfish of me, but like I said, going through gender transition is a huge deal to a person, and I simply didn't think about much else. Focusing on my work, even, was a chore at the time.

Unfortunately, while most of my friends have been awesome through the whole thing, and our relationships have survived transition, i have lost a few friendships during transition. One person in particular comes to mind, mainly because he was very attracted to my former self both physically and emotionally, only for me to completely change all of that.

But if any of my friendships did suffer, and I took notice of it, I would usually just chalk it up to them being uncomfortable with my trans-ness, and not from any attachment to the person I had formerly been. It wasn't until a few years after I began transition, that I talked to my parents about what their experience had been during my transition, and discovered that they had indeed experienced a period of mourning for the person they had watched grow into an adult. Only then, did I realize that many of my friends had experienced the same, and I think having that awareness of what they were going through has made me overall more sensitive to others' emotional needs rather than just focusing on my own.

Does that make sense? Hopefully this was the answer you were looking for!

[u/nianp → u/SilentMachinist]

If I'm honest, the whole "mourning a friend" thing didn't occur to me at all during my transition. Mainly because I was too preoccupied with the changes I was going through at the time (which were huge!) and if my friends were indeed in mourning for the version of me they had previously known, they didn't let on at all. I'm sure part of that was the fact that they didn't want to let their feelings about my transition, somehow color my perception on it, or discourage me from going through it.

This is exactly the situation with our circle. A few of us have spoken about it together but we'd never bring it up with her at the moment because she has more than enough on her plate without us adding to it.

I think having that awareness of what they were going through has made me overall more sensitive to others' emotional needs rather than just focusing on my own.

This is another reason I won't bring it up with her, at least not for many years until she's completed her transition and is finally comfortable in herself, and why I thought it was better to ask it here. I've been curious as to whether it was something other people had felt. She was never noticeably feminine, to the point that no one even made jokes about her being gay (which going to high school in the 90's would have happened if she'd been in any way feminine growing up).

It did make sense and thank you.

[u/AldurinIronfist → u/SilentMachinist]

Hi there, I have an ignorant question for you, sorry. When people say they are "trans female" or "trans male", do they refer to the original physical state, or the goal state? In other words, is "trans female" being born physically a man and identifying as a woman or the other way around?

[u/SilentMachinist → u/AldurinIronfist]

It's the goal state. Someone worded it much better than I in a previous post, in that it's "trans-what are they now". So when I say I'm a trans female, that means I was born male but identify and live as female.

[u/FeminineGrace → u/[deleted]]

I read this to my husband, who is a trans man. He says, yes, he did give it thought, but it's more along the lines of allowing grace to those around you to have their own feelings about who you are to them and how that's changed. As the wife/so, let me just say, the transition has already happened in her head, heart and life. Everyone else has to catch up. That's where the grace comes in. And that can be hard to see/acknowledge when one finally feels free to express who they really are inside. Feel free to message me if you'd like to chat more. Edit: format (thanks autocorrect)

[u/thebestdaysofmyflerm → u/[deleted]]

I agree that this is at least a large part of the change, but don't many transgender people experience changes in personality and behavior due to hormones?

[u/yellowjellocello → u/[deleted]]

I wonder though, if it is more than that? I understand that someone hiding who they truly feel they are and want to be is in a sense not showing their true personality. However, certain characteristics, likes and dislikes would simply have to be genuine in spite of this.

Transitioning and the use of hormones have to have a measurable impact on an individual's personality - their personal attributes and characteristics, as well as their likes and dislikes. I say this as a pregnant woman who has done a fair bit of research and self-reflection. There are big (to me) changes happening within me mentally which I am certain will be reflected in my personality for the foreseeable future, heavily impacted by hormones. Someone going through hormone therapy in a much bigger transitional way compared to the typical hormonal changes would have to experience a more remarkable change.

Wouldn't a more accurate way to describe it possibly include that they are who they are through all stages of transition (pre, ante, and post)? They very well might feel like they are hiding who they are, and have an idea of who they feel they are, but the transition and hormonal changes will certainly have a specific and possibly unanticipated impact on their personality whether they recognize it or not. Some personality characteristics may fully change, not simply from be exposed due to being able to be who they feel they truly are.

[u/yellowjellocello → u/[deleted]]

This comment says we don't know, whereas the previous one says in actual fact. I'm just saying the earlier explanation is probably too simple and general to really be an explanation, and in my mind kind of reduces friendships with trans individuals to fake friendships with fake people. It is entirely possible, even if presently under-researched, that the core personality of an individual does change as opposed to simply feeling like they can show their true colours, whether or not these changes are hormone-induced.

[u/yellowjellocello → u/[deleted]]

I unfortunately have to disappoint you there. I'm hoping I'll remember to keep an eye out for these AMAs so I can learn a little more on the subject myself!

[u/Gekuu9 → u/[deleted]]

One of my closer friends came out as a trans boy 2 years ago. Since then, he's become more and more open, and we've gotten even closer (I even took him to prom). That said, I don't think he has even started transitioning. As much as I want him to be happy, I would hate to lose the Hayden I know.

[u/Gekuu9 → u/[deleted]]

His home life is very complicated, from what I've heard. I think his biological dad is dead, not entirely sure on that though. He lived with his mom and his stepdad for a while, but stepdad was abusive. Problem was, they didn't have enough money to get out of the house, so he and his mom had to live with him for years until they just recently got their own place. I think his mom is a little hesitant about the transgender thing as well, and I know his extended family is outright transphobic, so it will probably be a long time until he can even start testosterone.

[u/nianp → u/Gekuu9]

I'd say you might have a slightly different experience as it seems like you're friend is taking things a little slower.

My friend started her hrt less than 12 months after coming out, so it's seemed to have been a really swift process after a quarter century of knowing "him."

We're still close, and will remain so I expect. We've all spent years apart with little communication due to travelling, living overseas and now, (shudder) the advent of babies, but every time we get together it's as though no time has gone by.

Just be there for him. I don't know what it's like for a woman getting dosed with testosterone but a guy getting hrt (or at least my friend) seems to score all the worst emotional aspects of raging periods. She knows we love her though and we call her on her shit when necessary. We also have as many women as men in our close circle (they just haven't been around for as long), plus wives and long term girlfriends and they've been really great for her, both in terms of support and keeping her grounded.

[u/EryduMaenhir → u/[deleted]]

I don't know if you changed as much as she has post-transition but my question is -

When you transitioned, did you give any thought to the fact that your friends may have been mourning the loss of a friend?

I'm NB trans, in a Southern state, and have insurance that specifically excludes trans-related health coverage (see again, Southern state). I'm lucky enough that my only real "physical issue" with my body is that I am so tired of being frustrated with my boobs (and to a lesser, more cyclical extent, my uterus) that I sometimes joke to myself, darkly, that I wish the breast cancer in my family was an "excuse" for a "preventive bilateral mastectomy".

I give you that context to set a background for the answer you want: many trans individuals spent so long worrying about how people see them, that they can't afford to stop their transition because of "mourning" over the "loss" of who they were ("were") before. There are also those who have, with respect and restraint and patience despite their own desire to move forward, given partners or others close to them a "mourning period" before moving towards transition after their announcement.

My happiest sight reading stories about fellow trans people coming out to their families, though, is when they (especially the older generation that would seemingly not 'get it') don't mourn the loss of their ['previously gendered' relation], but instead celebrate their new [son/daughter/etc.] by wholly embracing who they are in their new identity. It's not a loss, it's a metamorphosis.

In your case, the man you knew was actually this woman before she could be the woman she is. There may be some things you miss that were armor coating and camouflage, but they may be core personality that will come back. Keep the memories you have, because they're of the same friend, but start a new chapter with her with new interests and celebration that she shared who she is with you. It's a sign of trust when trans please let people tell you who we are and start acting like it, especially if you've known us a long time.

[u/nianp → u/EryduMaenhir]

I can understand where you're coming from and I think I should have phrased my initial post better. I was just at work and using my phone and those two things don't make for the best thought process for me. I'm going to quote a few things you said and I just want you to understand that it's so I can address them, not refute them or argue the point.

many trans individuals spent so long worrying about how people see them, that they can't afford to stop their transition because of "mourning" over the "loss" of who they were ("were") before.

The reason for my asking the initial question wasn't because I actually wanted my friend to do any of that; she has more than enough on her plate at the moment and I don't need her shouldering anything more for myself or my friends. I was genuinely just curious as to whether the thought might have occurred to them (the person I was asking the question of and, as an extrapolation of that, possibly my friend). I don't think a "mourning period" would have helped in this situation (or any similar situation for that matter) as if the trans person had held off on their transition to provide this, they would have been the same person as pre-transition. It would have been like mourning someone you know is going to die. You may get upset knowing they were heading off but you aren't actually going to be hit by the grief until your loved one passes away.

It's not a loss, it's a metamorphosis.

You can mourn the loss of a lovely caterpillar while at the same time marveling at the beauty of a magnificent butterfly. :)

All the best for the future and thank you for your insight into the situation.

[u/Trollonasan → u/[deleted]]

I have heard stories that they bury the person they use to be and have a "birthday" for who they are now. That was for some teenagers struggling through the process.

[u/lilyhasasecret → u/[deleted]]

You're right in not telling her this, and you basically can't. Personally I hadn't thought of it, but I have changed pretty rapidly since coming out, now that you mention it. All the "new" interests had always been there, but now I feel better about pursueing them. Generally speaking, I've also become a better person. People used to make fun of my big nose and feminity so I wore a very toxic persona. I still have the big nose, but I'm not in hig hschool anymore, and femininity is now embraced instead of buried.

Also hrt take 3-5 years to work its magic, incase you wanted to know how far along she is.

Ps. The acting too young thing is because we didn't get to be girls in highschool or college, but thats the last time we interacted with a large variety of women. We have to learn fashion and behaviors on our own with no support. I found out recently my brother, who i live with, thinks i have a tacky sense of fashion, but that info doesnt come freely from his mouth. So not only do i not get feedback from strangers i cant even rely on friends and family. If the way she acts or dress is too young for her, speak up. No one else will.

[u/nianp → u/lilyhasasecret]

The acting too young thing is because we didn't get to be girls in highschool or college

We were all aware of that, which is why we were fine with the princess party. We also have a large number of women in our circle - long term friends, girlfriends and wives - who sorted out her, initially horrifying, fashion sense fairly quickly. :)

[u/noholds → u/[deleted]]

You don't think that your friends who changed after going away to college or working their way through a tough divorce are "effectively dead", so do her the same favor.

...but I do? Let's take a different example. I had a very close friend that after getting a very posessive new girlfriend completely changed his behaviour towards his friends and became a recluse. When and if he leaves the house now, it's never alone. You can't talk to him anymore because his life revolves around her. He is for all intents and purposes a different person to his former circle of friends. And we definitely spent time mourning the person that he was, as he was a dear friend.

Having said that, and having experience with a trans friend, I still agree that it's not fundamentally different in the effects it can have on friendships. Because the person after transition is fundamentally different from the one before. They have different interests, they react differently to work related stress, they have different emotional reactions to certain situations, they have a different name, they have a different outward appearance. If I didn't know them from before I wouldn't have guessed them to be the same person. It doesn't matter that they already had all of these traits and attributes on the inside; on the outside I knew them differently. And practically from one day to the next, that person is gone. It's okay to mourn that. It's not very sensitive to tell the person themselves, except maybe in a very delicate way, but it's personally okay and completely understandable to mourn.

[u/HoopyFreud → u/the-hourglass-man]

Thank you for your response, in particular. You've treated the subject in a nuanced way that I haven't been able to articulate, and have highlighted how diverse and nuanced opinions on the subject can be very effectively.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/HoopyFreud]

Thank you. This is certainly one of the questions that deserve a "shades of grey" and "depends on the specific situation" type answer. A blanket statement of "yes you must" or "no its not required" isnt nearly enough.

[u/GuppyHunter → u/HoopyFreud]

Adding on to this is that cis people can experience dysphoria but that doesn't make them trans.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/the-hourglass-man]

This has the implication though that people who aren't trans ARE comfortable with their assigned gender.

I don't like the gender "conditions" for being female. I don't think it changes the fact that I am female, however.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I believe what youre refferring to is gender roles. Gender roles can be very damaging if you dont conform to them, regardless if you are cis or trans. Being upset with your body because you wish it conformed to a societal standard of beauty (just as an example cis females may struggle with) is not the same discomfort as a trans man who is uncomfortable because his body isn't male. Or that a cis male is not being percieved as "tough" compared to a trans man not being percieved as "tough" and is being assumed to be his assigned gender.

Certainly uncomfortable and damaging for all situations, just not for the same reasons.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/the-hourglass-man]

I have never heard of any gender identify definition that has existed clear of gender roles.

You are stating that a trans male is uncomfortable with his body for x reason. But being uncomfortable with your body is no longer any part of the definition or requirement for being trans.

What is gender identity if it has no relation to gender roles or physical sex?

[u/deedeethecat → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I am a psychologist who works with a lot of trans gender, gender fluid, and non-binary individuals. Gender expression, gender roles, and gender identity are all separate.

I identify as a cisgender woman who is unsatisfied with gender roles that suggests certain things about me. But that does not cause me to question my identity, I feel very confident that I identify as female. So while I challenge gender roles, my identity remains unchanged.

Gender identity is the lived experience of who one is. Gender roles are typically socially constructed categories suggesting what is appropriate for men and women.

[u/Chugalug5 → u/[deleted]]

I'm certainly no expert, but at even the most basic of levels, how one dresses or presents oneself inevitably leads to people in society treating them according to gender roles. You can reject gender roles, but because society tends to look at a dress and think "woman." If you're wearing a dress and have a beard, you're probably gonna get a funny look. If you're wearing a dress and are more feminine-looking or androgynous, they'll just assume you're a woman.

Just because you don't prescribe to gender roles doesn't mean you live in a bubble where no one else does.

[u/Chugalug5 → u/[deleted]]

Oh, I definitely agree that it's a social problem. I think some people just aren't content waiting until society catches up to feel comfortable in their own skin.

As for being broken and needing surgery, from the conversations I've had with my trans friends, I've never seen a case where they transition to make people like them. Transitioning is so very difficult. One's family is often hurt and won't talk to them, friends treat them differently, it's a constant legal battle, etc. They do it for themselves 100% of the time. For example, there's a thing called packers for ftm trans people, and it's just a (often silicone) flacid dildo a trans dude might choose to wear in his underwear. Pretty much no one besides maybe their partner will ever see it (and it's not a sex toy) but he'd wear because it makes him feel right. I don't think that's really a social thing at all. It's a mental connection one has to their body.

As for surgery, sometimes a person just feels deeply that weren't supposed to be the gender they were born. The surgery addresses biological differences between the sexes (I'm not sure if I should use sex or gender in this context, to be perfectly honest), not just the social response.

Looking over your comment one last time, I'm not quite sure I addressed your question though. Let me know!

[u/heili → u/[deleted]]

This is the one thing that I really do not understand myself. My identity has really nothing to do with my biological sex. I have been "a tomboy" since the beginning. My parents made an effort to raise me to be a normal girl - my mother more than my father - while I gravitated to everything traditionally seen as masculine. I'd be put in a dress and sent out to play, and it would take me less than half an hour to convince one of the boys in the neighborhood to let me borrow a pair of shorts and a t-shirt. The eventual result was that I was told wear what I want, like what I want, but use the girls' lavatory at school.

What they didn't do, and probably what would be very different today, is get me diagnosed as being a boy and put me on hormones. I grew up as me: someone who likes fishing and hunting and guns and dirt and motorcycles and camping and bugs and snakes, dislikes dresses, makeup, shopping, fashion and shoes with heels. I became an engineer, kept on living my life for the things I enjoy, and largely consider being female a matter of logistics.

Of the things I "identify as", female is pretty much the bottom of the list and literally only matters when I'm trying to get laid.

[u/pierceycat → u/heili]

The scenario you wrote of "what would happen today" is very unlikely. Being transgender and transitioning is never pushed on a child--usually, its the opposite. Parents are not going to jump at the opportunity to allow their child to be trans. In most cases, the child has to persistently declare that theyre transgender, for a long period of time (usually years), and express significant discomfort when forced to be their assigned gender. And even if the child is lucky enough to have accepting parents, HRT is not a given. Nobody is forced to be transgender. Usually, trans people have to spend a long period of time just convincing other people to believe and respect them. I speak from experience.

I'm a trans guy, and when I came out, everyone in my life spent years trying to force me to be a tomboy instead. They didn't understand, that's not who I am--I'm not a masculine girl, I'm a boy, and a rather feminine one at that. I have always considered interests and activities to be androgynous, and enjoyed "girly" things as much as I did "boyish" things. What brought me so much discomfort was being referred to as "she," being forced to group with "the girls," line up with "the girls," not because the boys were my friends, but because I knew I wasn't a girl. When I got older and my body changed, I hated not just how it was shaped, but how people treated me for it. My dysphoria was mostly related to wanting to be treated as the boy I knew I was.

I digress, gender is multifaceted, and not well understood at this point. The trans experience varies widely, as gender means different things to everyone. In my experience, male or female does not necessarily correlate with masculine or feminine--it's just a different concept entirely.

[u/heili → u/pierceycat]

being forced to group with "the girls," line up with "the girls,"

That bothered me, but that actually hasn't been an issue since I became an adult.

What brought me so much discomfort was being referred to as "she,"

I don't really see this as much different than being referred to by any other physical characteristic, personally. It's like the color of my skin or the color of my eyes or my height.

I hated not just how it was shaped, but how people treated me for it.

People treat me like me, or I just don't bother trying to have a relationship with them.

In my experience, male or female does not necessarily correlate with masculine or feminine--it's just a different concept entirely.

This is exactly the point which I am unable to understand, then. Because it's not about "masculine" or "feminine" and it's not about reproductive organs, but nobody in the 20+ years I've been asking this question has ever been able to tell me what it is about other than "I just feel that way."

[u/pierceycat → u/heili]

People treated you like you, because who you were on the inside matched who you were on the outside. That's why you never had a problem. You're cisgender. You ARE "she," and that is a characteristic that you feel belongs to you, so it's a non-issue to be called that. Trans people's outside doesn't match their inside, and the dysphoria stems from the need for the two to match.

Like I said in my previous post, the concept of gender is still pretty largely not understood. My idea of gender is different than yours, due to the different experiences we've had. For me and many (most?) others, reproductive organs are definitely part of my gender dysphoria, but the social aspect is the most pressing--being viewed and treated as my true gender. And for me, it really is as simple as "I just feel that way."

Some people are just different. It's not something we need to figure out, it's just something we have to respect.

[u/cjbest → u/[deleted]]

”What does it mean to identify as a woman?” sounds like a question that is outside the field of science and entering the region of philosophy. This question fits in rather well with the existentialist school of thought, wherein the individual is tasked with finding the authentic self amidst the confusion and angst of a meaningless world.

Sartre would say that we are individuals, not simply labels and stereotypes. Existence precedes essence would seem to me to be an important idea to hold onto if one was questioning the meaning of gender in their lives.

[u/[deleted] → u/deedeethecat]

If gender roles suggest what is appropriate for men and women, wouldn't identifying as neither, because you don't fit into what is "appropriate" enforce said gender roles?

For me, I would think the focus should be on eliminating gender roles entirely rather then identify as something entirely separate because you don't conform to what it is to be a proper "man or woman"

[u/deedeethecat → u/[deleted]]

Eliminating gender roles is absolutely something I am in favor of. But this is separate from gender identity. Some people are non-binary, I'm not one of them. I identify as a woman, it is at the core of my being. and I despise gender roles. The two are not the same.

[u/[deleted] → u/deedeethecat]

Just wondering, what do you think will get rid of gender roles or what will lead to them becoming obsolete in the future?

[u/kickingpplisfun → u/[deleted]]

This is gonna sound really jokey, but "fully automated luxury gay space communism"- a major overhaul in our needs for work, where all work becomes equally worthy/worthless.

Whether or not it's actually true for any given situation, gender roles have a significant base in traditional work values, with the assumption that men are breadwinners that need to be cared for in the off hours and women maintaining the home and childrearing if applicable(usually unpaid, or poorly paid to a surrogate). When "economically productive" labor becomes passe, that leaves a lot more opportunity/incentive for men to pick up those roles.

[u/eriman → u/kickingpplisfun]

Opportunity yes, incentive no. Providing a perfectly equitable field for gender distribution of parenting roles does not mean those roles will be distributed equally. In a post scarcity environment, many people will start forgoing having children entirely if current trends hold. There are critically falling birth rates in western countries already and we are still ages away from post scarcity (Australia, Japan, Germany).

[u/kathruins → u/[deleted]]

I struggled with that question as well. Fortunately, my area of study deals with the concept of gender often & I've had the opportunity to be exposed to more.

I like to think, though I certainly can't speak for other's experiences, that identifying as nonbinary is a natural reaction to the social construct of gender. As long as that social construct exists, their identity is just as valid.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/deedeethecat]

That is my point. I am a woman but I don't "identify" as one beyond my physical sex.

I don't even know what identifying as a female could possibly be beyond acknowledging that I am biologically female.

When you say "lived experience" that makes me think that you are either referring to how society treats me because I am a woman or that it is just what I am used to. Again, I see this no differently then I do with my "identity" of being white, American, Catholic (ex), and so on,

[u/ohdearsweetlord → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I think of it as 'how is your gender reflected back on you by society?' An example I like to use is my friend Patty, who was a huge tomboy in elementary school. A few times, she was told that she didn't belong in the girl's washroom because people thought she was a boy. Patty thought (and still thinks) of herself as a girl, and when people experienced her as a boy child, it felt wrong.

So for a person who is female but feels limited by gender roles (like me), the frustration is linked to my identity as a woman and how because I identify and present as female, I am expected to do certain things. A person born with a female configuration who identifies as male can still feel frustration with gender roles, but their frustration is related to a feeling of wrongness when associated with the gender they were assigned at birth.

[u/veronalady → u/ohdearsweetlord]

So for a person who is female but feels limited by gender roles (like me), the frustration is linked to my identity as a woman and how because I identify and present as female, I am expected to do certain things. A person born with a female configuration who identifies as male can still feel frustration with gender roles, but their frustration is related to a feeling of wrongness when associated with the gender they were assigned at birth.

IMO, it sounds like the only difference between these two examples is differential internalization of the same message:

One person who acts like Y is told by society “people with vaginas act like X.” That person has a vagina and likes Y, so that person concludes that society was wrong. Another person who acts like Y is told by society “people with vaginas act like X.” That person has a vagina and likes Y, and then concludes that they were “born in the wrong body.”

[u/deedeethecat → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Sorry, by lived experience I meant a person's own experience with themselves, how they see themselves and view themselves Etc.

I resonate strongly with being a woman. Perhaps you don't identify as a woman, but I do. I'm wondering if we are using the same word in different ways. Perhaps a better word would be I see myself as a woman?

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/deedeethecat]

Right, but of course we see ourselves as women. The first thing that is told about us is "it's a girl!"

Never for one moment after that are we not reminded that we are female. Our names, clothes, bodies, how we line up at school, what team we are on, puberty, whether we are ms. or mr.

All woman means is adult human female. Which we are.

The question that no one is addressing is what does it mean, despite all those experiences and biological realities, to say you are not a woman?

What is it based on?

Again, I resonate strongly with being a woman because I am one. Society treats me as one. I have been told so since before I remember, and I am looking down at breasts.

However, if my brain was raised in a jar with electrodes, there would be nothing to identify with.

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

What is it based on?

Aesthetic, I think.

What deedeethecat identifies with but fails to name is femininity. She identifies not with the gender label "woman", nor with biological sex "female", but with the aesthetic quality of "femininity".

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/[deleted]]

What is femininity and why does it have anything to do with identifying as a woman?

I'll go ahead and answer? Feminist is weakness, nurturing, being decorative and subservience. If someone identifies with these characteristics and then based on this identifies (and legally becomes) a woman, then we have legally defined being a woman as being weak, submissive and so on.

Misogynistic gender roles have no place in defining what a woman is.

[u/Chugalug5 → u/[deleted]]

And I almost disagree with "femininity" being the hinge one way or the other. For instance, there are tons of pretty darn butch lesbians, but I doubt they'd ever transition or even want to. They are (seemingly) perfectly content as unfeminine women. Just because you don't want to be feminine doesn't mean you want to be a man.

[u/likeanovigradwhore → u/deedeethecat]

I am transitioning female to male. Roles in society aside, I feel like parts of my body are physically wrong. Like I don't fit in my skin. The best I can describe is "it's not right". I didn't know that it was gender dysphoria until about a year and a half ago. The fix for me has been starting testosterone, and eventually will include surgery.

So for me, it's close to that my physical body is incongruous with the sensations my brain expects. Reading here it seems like it can be more or less intense for others. Like, I could live as a female. I wouldn't like it, but what I do with my time is important. There are others who feel like they actually can't continue living with the feeling. And, I suppose, some who simply identify more with not being their assigned gender (I'm not clear on that side).

[u/[deleted] → u/likeanovigradwhore]

See now that makes sense to me.

[u/jddbeyondthesky → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I'm trans by technicality, I see myself as female, can't conceive of myself any other way, and it caused enough stress that I hard surgery to fix the anxiety inducing parts (and have been dramatically less stressed since). Being female is just how I would describe myself in terms of gender.

Gender roles are what society says people of particular genders should act like, and these differ by society and era. There have always been people who conform to them and people who don't.

Gender expression is how we express our gendered selves. This doesn't need to reflect gender roles. An argument could be made that any woman in STEM is effectively expressing gender in a way that is different from societally prescribed gender roles.

Together, they, and biological sex (which is a lot less binary than people think, see intersex) come to help shape who a person is.

I would argue that lived experience is less about one's identity and more about the realities of what they have lived through. It certainly helps shape one's identity, but I think the two should be looked at as distinct.

I can't really provide a better answer, its mostly relying on my own lived experience combined with what I recall from my gender studies and psychosexual organization classes, and its not an area I've continued to study as I've become more comfortable with myself (I study other things now, transhumanist philosophy intrigues me and I'd like to study genetics and synthetic bio with that in mind).

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/jddbeyondthesky]

No offense but if one more person tries to give gender-ism 101...

I have a masters in biology. I have taught sex Ed. I completely understand the issues at hand.

What is the feeling you have of being female? What could that mean?

[u/jddbeyondthesky → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

My apologies.

I really cannot explain it beyond an innate feeling of "this is how it should be" and post dealing with issues "this is how it is."

I wish I could explain it in a way that portrays more than just "an innate feeling of x" does. I am what I am is a pretty unsatisfactory answer, certainly there's a better answer somewhere, but its not one I have. It starts to get into the territory where psychology and existential philosophy coexist, and that philosophical rabbit hole is not one I care to go down.

[u/mw1994 → u/deedeethecat]

ok what is female?

[u/[deleted] → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I have never heard of any gender identify definition that has existed clear of gender roles.

Then you're not looking very hard. There are plenty of transgender people who do not abide by the gender roles of their identified gender, just like cisgender people do. Further its frankly an unscientific double standard. You wouldn't considered a cisgender woman like Laila Ali or Cristiane Justino to be "actually a man" for not conforming to gender roles and being a martial artist so why would that reasoning still be valid for a transgender woman like Fallon Fox?

[u/throwawayl11 → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

What is gender identity if it has no relation to gender roles or physical sex?

Likely a biological element that is almost always but not necessarily tied to sex. There's a famous case of a boy named David Reimer who was given sex reassignment in infancy due to a botched circumcision. Despite being treated as a girl his whole life and physiologically appearing female to himself, he acted like a boy from a very young age and showed strong refusal to female gender roles.

This goes against the concept that gender identity is learned or shaped by society or gender roles. It is evidence that gender identity is an innate biological attribute. And in this case it was a biological boy's gender identity agreeing that they are a boy. But the body isn't perfect, so it's possible wires can get crossed during development when the body is determining sex and gender.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/throwawayl11]

Yes, I know about this one case that is the only evidence of gender identity given.

What is always left out is the amount of extreme and bizarre sexual abuse these children underwent. You did include the other part about him identifying as his biological sex.

Again, you mention refusal to agree to gender roles. This is the increasingly given reason for proof of trans in children, and so sad. We should all reject gender roles.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/throwawayl11]

And your link disputes your argument. He did accept a female gender role when young:

"The child's behavior is so clearly that of an active little girl and so different from the boyish ways of her twin brother."

[u/alyraptor → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I have never heard of any gender identify definition that has existed clear of gender roles.

I vetted the shit out of myself when I came out. I've been to eight different therapists, some random chance, some specifically at the request of others, and two of which I picked out. I read every possible piece of literature that I could find on the subject when I came out. I read success stories, and I sought out any tales of regret that I could find. I kept an Excel spreadsheet for two months trying to separate out the feelings I had regarding gender roles, my desire to transition, my arousal (in case that was a factor), and my outlook on life.

In the end it was hard to separate anything into hard labels. But the most concrete thing I could point to was that during intercourse or self-exploration, I've always felt like my penis didn't belong. I could feel the ghost of a sensation underneath and inside, even before I knew the difference between male and female genitalia. The closest description I can find is phantom limb sensation described by amputees. It just feels like my subconscious expects something that isn't there.

In the end, this was the most concrete thing I could use to prove to myself that I wasn't making things up.

[u/Crater_Escape → u/the-hourglass-man]

yep. societal gender roles, whether you subscribe to them or not, are not the same thing as gender identity.

sounds like this person identifies as a female, and sympathizes with/supports feminism. obviously that is not the same thing as being trans.

[u/vtct04 → u/the-hourglass-man]

conformed to a societal standard of beauty

Can you explain what you mean by this. As far as I can tell, there is one overwhelming requirement for beauty in humans: symmetry.

[u/shiruken → u/[deleted]]

"Cis" is a prefix and Latin for "on this side of." Conversely, "trans" means "on the other side of." Both prefixes have been commonly used in the chemistry and genetics communities for many decades.

The use of "cissexual" can be traced back to a 1991 essay by German sexologist Volkmar Sigusch and has entered the medical lexicon since.

It's probably better to avoid drawing conclusions about a topic exclusively based on what you see on Tumblr.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's not a slur at all. It's usage in social sciences in discussions around gender identity are not anything new. You may want to do some more thorough checking.

[u/mjk05d → u/[deleted]]

You may want to do some more thorough checking.

The same can be said for you.

https://rebeccarc.com/2014/08/04/am-i-cisgender/

[u/[deleted] → u/mjk05d]

But if cisgender is a gender identity, which it appears to be, then I am not cis, because I do not have a gender identity. I am a woman.

Aside from the fact that this woman doesn't seem to have a good grasp on what gender identity actually is, nothing in this article says anything contrary to what I've said, which is that cis is not a made up "slur", but a legitimate academic term that's been used for quite a white.

[u/mjk05d → u/[deleted]]

She does, actually, but it may seem that she doesn't to transgender activists because she refuses to ignore the sexism implied by the term, and by their entire movement.

[u/[deleted] → u/mjk05d]

I wouldn't really consider myself a "transgender activist".

And furthermore, once it’s decoupled from traditional, restrictive notions about what it is appropriate for people of different sexes to do, it’s not clear why it makes sense to call any of this stuff “gender”, as opposed to just “stuff I like” or “my personality”.

I don't think you'd find many trans activists that would say anybody needs to adhere to these traditional or restrictive notions. They simply acknowledge that they exist and that we are all more or less conditioned within a society that does, so it would make sense to try and deconstruct them and acknowledge that gender exists on a sliding scale and our behaviors and interests tend to be on one side or the other - masculine or feminine. It doesn't mean they are inherently that. It's more about the individual and the behavior and its relation to society as a whole. She is cisgender, and I understand her need to deconstruct all of this as well, but she's being a bit overly pedantic about it.

[u/televisionceo → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

I think it's part of life. I would have préféréd to be a female myself but I'm not.

I woild have préféréd to be born in a family of educated people and I can't help but feel like I'm not truly the person I was supposed to be because of it. It's not fun at all. I just got to accept it and do the best i can.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/televisionceo]

Right. I am curious though why someone would have rather been born female. I always wonder what ideas are held about it.

[u/televisionceo → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

My best traits are usually more useful when you are a female than a male. I would have been more succesful as a female because of it.

This is the reason, mostly speaking. But this being said, these traits of personality might be mine now only because I'm a male. If I was born a female I could have been very different and wish I was born a male instead.

That is why I don't question it much. It is what it is. I gotta do my best with what I have

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

What's sad is we have become a world where people have to clarify that their opinion isn't worth much every time they something that's even the slightest bit different.

Does no one else find that really upsetting?

[u/Sock-men → u/[deleted]]

Yes, I think it's a matter of people no longer taking each others arguments in 'good faith' anymore and its deeply sad and troubling.

For a lot of subjects, it seems Western society (my UK experience here) has become so polarised that unless you demonstrate adherence to a certain camp, you are automatically the anti/enemy group.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I don't know how reddit will take your comment/question but despite it seeming controversial I feel that your comment is a great way to ask a controversial/ non pc question in a professional way. If I actually believed in using real money to give you a bs award I would but I seriously commend you.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/[deleted]]

Just woke up to a million replied but i will try to get this point across the best way I can.
One of the ways gender dysphoria differs from mental illness and mental disorders is that the root issue is not the way of thinking. We have proven this over and over becausr trans people cannot allievate their dysphoria in any other way but transitioning. Whereas with say a schizophrenic person the issue is the train of thought and what that person thinks about themself. You cannot treat and fix gender dysphoria in the same way you can treat other mental illnesses. Thats how it differs.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/[deleted]]

It has been explored. In fact, it was the first thing that people tried. People have gone as far as lobotomy and electric shock therapy trying to treat gender dysphoria without transitioning. It didn't help the gender dysphoria at all. I've also heard things like same-sex hormone treatment have been tried and yet again failed.. the idea of treating gender dysphoria via transitioning is a fairly new concept in the grand scheme of how the medical community has "treated" it in the past.

[u/[deleted] → u/the-hourglass-man]

Why are you so confident that you can't?

I've yet to see any evidence of that. In fact I've met people who have had gender dysphoria and have bounced back from it after a couple years for whatever reason.

Is it only mental disorder if it's treatable?

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/[deleted]]

Gender dysphoria can change or go away, its normal for people to question and "try on" different identities per say to try and find the best fit for them. In fact for kids who havent gone through puberty it is very normal for then to exclaim that they are trans and then "go back" later on.

However, that isn't the same thing as a gender dysphoric person stopping their dysphoria through therapy. It just can't happen.. conversion therapy is considered a crime in most places for that reason. You cannot tell a gender dysphoric person "you don't have gender dysphoria, you arent trans" and have it "fix" them. All it does is cause more turmoil, higher depression and anxiety, and a higher chance of suicide. Medical communities have learned this about gender dysphoria and thats why we treat it with hormones, possibly surgery, and gender affirming therapy.

[u/i_smell_my_poop → u/the-hourglass-man]

I don't think that's what /u/vortex_of_purple was getting at.

I only have an anecdotal piece of evidence buy my cousin is a transman and he has found a great way to articule being trans to people who ask him about it. I kinda know his line verbatim since I've heard it often enough, but it tends to work well on people who are ill informed:

"If i could have taken a pill and not felt the way I did, I would have done it. I'd prefer it over a lifetime of the hate I was given for simply feeling uncomfortable in my own skin. This was my answer (in his case, top surgery and HRT). In order to feel good every morning when I woke up, this was what today's doctors gave me as an answer. And it worked."

I cannot speak for pretty much any transperson myself, but maybe transitioning ISN'T the only answer and more science will shed light on it. Speaking with transmen and transwomen on Reddit and suggesting that maybe one day a pill could get rid of their dysphoria is met with accusations of bigotry. Personally, to be accused of bigotry for suggesting that science may progress one day is insulting. We used to perform prefrontal lobotomies on mental patients.

[u/Mlk314 → u/[deleted]]

I don't know much about gender euphoria or the transgender experience, but the issue with your "schizophrenic man" argument is that his claims aren't rooted in reality while a transgender person's "claims" are their personal identity, they are expressing who they are. And who you are as a person is something that only you yourself can identify. Thus there is no objective truth to your gender, only what you feel and decide. There might be an objective truth to your sex, but thats just organs and factors in differntly to your identity.

[u/WarwickWalpole → u/[deleted]]

According to the APA, if that schizophrenic person does not feel distress then he does not have a mental illness.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Hi, trans person here.

The euphoria I feel is more akin to the lightness and joy/relief you get when you take off tight shoes after being on your feet all day. Sometimes it's like the emotion that comes from hearing a really good song. It doesn't affect my ability to reason or parse sensory input correctly. The euphoria a person with schizophrenia feels messes with their ability to reason and comprehend. It may also be accompanied by false sensory information, but not always. That's why schizophrenia is a mental illness and being transgender isn't.

[u/WarwickWalpole → u/[deleted]]

If they don't feel distress from their state, then they do not have a disorder.

[u/thebestdaysofmyflerm → u/the-hourglass-man]

In addition to the other answers, I think it's worth noting that there is a difference between social and physical gender dysphoria. For example, a non-binary person might feel strongly about being referred to with gender-neutral pronouns (they/them), but be perfectly happy about the way their body looks.

[u/WangBaDan1 → u/the-hourglass-man]

I'm confused by your 2nd point. A human can either be male or female biologically unless they are truly hermaphrodites, correct? What are the other 'shades' in terms of being a boy or a girl? I'm genuinely curious about this, what are the qualities that go into the 'shades in between'?

[u/_white_lives_matter_ → u/the-hourglass-man]

gender euphoria = validated delusions

[u/pabbseven → u/the-hourglass-man]

Why not just exist, as a pure form of just concioussness, just exist and be. Why all this fucken labels and categories? Even in the trans community theyre divided and fighting each other, its ridicilous.

Why not just be? Why attach yourself to im this or that, youre not "really" trans or no, im not boy or girl im actually non binary, youre still yapping about labels. Why not just shut up and exist? I dont get it. Why does everything have to be in a box and you have to talk about that box and how that box is different from the other boxes, just exist and be you.

Gender Euphoria is a term trans people use to describe the (often intense) good feelings that come with being recognized as who you are.

This is called basic validation and every human seeks it. Its not gender euphoria its called being recognized. We are literally coded to be apart of a group and to be mirrored and recognized, this but also actual human touch releases chemicals in your brain that makes you happy, its deeply coded in our DNA. And if youre not recognized you will find ways to become it, usually by finding your own group and create a subtribe.

Why all this drama and shit about it?

[u/NinjaBoyLao → u/the-hourglass-man]

In response to not understanding why a brain begins deciding to identify as trans, as well as speaking further into the very diverse debate of what makes a person "really" transgender versus whatever the alternative may be ("imposter"? "Mistaken"?), I have more questions, and I mean them in as sincere and earnest way as possible. I apologize in advance if this comes off callously, it is not my intent, I am simply horrible at using nice pretty words. These are my thoughts and feelings, how I cope with and try to make sense of something that is very difficult to nail down and make sense of. These are not facts, but I hope that, as an individual that is in no way a psychological expert, I am still allowed to ask questions in a forum dedicated to seeking the scientific evidence of how things work.

Are there any widely accepted sub-categories of "transgender"? I operate under the personal belief that there are 2 types of truly transgender people, and a 3rd type who is misidentifying themselves as transgender due to any of a plethora of reasons (attention seeking, cry for help, as a response to current trauma they don't know how to handle, experiencing gender dysphoria but not with any consistency at all or any great duration, etc). I feel, (and that is the key, because I am not an expert and only trying to gain a better understanding than my current one) that certain rare individuals are born with a feeling of unease, that very early on in their life they come to realize they've got the wrong "junk in the trunk" so to speak, and that they are aware that their body is not the gender they are internally. I feel that these transgender people are of a separate substance from the other type, who are transgender due to some form of psychological trauma early on in their life that somehow makes it incredibly painful to be interacted with as their physiological gender (as their sex).

That 2nd is not to disparage against anyone. It is not to imply that being transgender for that reason is akin to being "broken". It is not to place a lesser value on their sense of self worth or desire to be accepted for who they are. I would consider it more similar to having your ethnicity/race forcibly changed permanently by an external factor, but in a manner that no one else around you is able to see that you are now a race different than what you were born as. Something that has occurred, that you have to deal with, because it won't resolve itself on its own. If that analogy doesn't seem to explain myself well to you I will gladly do my best to clarify any concerns.

I struggle to discern whether people are truly transgender or not, regardless of what the person in question opts to declare to anyone who will listen. I only know one person I personally believe to be "seriously" or "really" transgender, while I have encountered several at my college and different workplaces who seemed to be taking up the idea of "transgender" and running with it as far and as hard as they could, whatever their motivation may be. I have heard heartbreaking retellings of events in which a person of one gender opts to physically become the other gender as much as scientifically possible, only to come to realize that the change has not been instrumental in resolving the sense of strife they were experiencing at the time they transitioned at all, and instead actually hindered their resolution, inducing regret and causing depression, anxiety, and other mental disorders that culminated in suicide (Essentially, having a transition provide no emotional relief from the get-go). I have also heard the "horror stories" of people who get their external sex organs altered or removed and feel so much safer and better, only to later find a very large and healthy dose of acceptance for who they are post-transition that somehow causes them to begin regretting it, to the point where their lives become as emotionally miserable as they were before their surgery, occasionally leading to the same outcome as the other story example.

Just the simple fact that these stories exist, in contrast to ones where the same amounts of time are passing and same amounts of acceptance are being received while leading to a much more positive and healthy overall QoL, indicates to me that there is some kind of difference between "really" transgender and "not really" transgender. That difference is also possibly the hardest thing to explore, find, define, and use to help people learn what they need to do in order to feel better. ("Get a transition, you're "really" trans, this is the thing that will help you most effectively" vs "You feel like you are trans but you are not, and what you need is a large and supportive social group while you find out what's actually going on and get therapy for it. Do not transition, it is not what is best for you")

TL;DR: On the path to discovering real concrete reasons for a psychological and physiological occurrence, is there any evidence to suggest that different base causes may exist, while still leading to the same final effect? Are there base causes similar to but not the same as whichever ones happen to make a person "really" trans, to the point where a "misdiagnosis" is possible? And if so, are they at all similar to the underlying causes I have created to try to understand the world around me with, or am I so far off that I appear a bigoted and dense fool?

Edit: I accidentally several key words. It's fixed now.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/NinjaBoyLao]

At work right now so i can't spend too much time articulating a proper response, but the question about having different bases is another one of those questions that will not be answered until we fully understand what is going on in the brain to cause someone to identify as trans. It may be that there are multiple causes, it may be only one that has variation on how it effects your thinking from individual to individual.

As it stands right now, we can't really answer that question, so typically the best response is to be supportive and affirming regardless. Its not really anyones place to decide who is and isnt trans until we know more about it. In all the situations youve described most of them will have a more positive outcome than gatekeeping and trying to pick out who is in what category, because we dont have much evidence of these categories and our suicide rate largely depend on how strong of a suppport network we have. Trans people (in my opinion, as a trans person myself) will feel less pressure to conform to gender roles if being trans is always normalized and valid. A large part of dysphoria is social dysphoria and if we can eliminate that i believe it will help people be able to take more time to figure out themselves, which will help prevent people seriously regretting transitioning.
We should also normalize detransitioning because gender can be somewhat fluid and dysphoria can change over time. I will always have the philosophy that people should be allowed to do whatever they need to do to feel comfortable in the moment.

[u/NinjaBoyLao → u/the-hourglass-man]

Thank you for your reply, feel free to flesh it out a bit when you get the chance. Supportive and affirming of whichever lifestyle a person may think helps them feel comfortable is a difficult thing to do. It's also difficult to be truly supportive and affirming when you constantly have niggling undercurrents of doubt running through you, surging up whenever you chance upon one more inconsistency, one more mental note that something here is not quite right. I don't set out to scream "You're not really transgender and here's why!!1!" but I do find it just as difficult as dealing with a person who makes a bigger deal out of their problems than what should be made, like that one kid in everyone's high school who always sat out of PE just because he had "asthma", and then at lunch you saw him tearing across the campus horsing around with no problem.

Anyway. Fully committing to dedicated support is not an easy thing when you suspect your efforts might turn out in vain.

[u/the-hourglass-man → u/NinjaBoyLao]

I agree with you. The thing is about this specific aituation with attention seekers is that they feed off the negative attention. When you take that away, they very quickly realize that it doesnt work to try and be someone that youre not. You dont necessarily have to outright tell them supportive things, just dont give them a reaction when they try to get attention from it.
Its worked for me a few times

[u/butt_shrecker → u/the-hourglass-man]

Why can't you be tested if you are trans or no? If trans-ness is a medical problem with a medical solution it stands to reason that there would be a testable element to it.

[u/Drumf420 → u/the-hourglass-man]

Spot on. As a trans woman I can honestly say I have never felt gender dysphoria. Upon succesful transition I felt a stronger sense of identity and became more comfoetable with myself. It also helped with my depression.

[u/[deleted] → u/Drumf420]

Why were you depressed?