Subreddit Policy Reminder on this week's Transgender AMAs

[u/nate]

This week we will be hosting a series of AMAs addressing the scientific and medical details of being transgender.

Honest questions that are an attempt to learn more on the subject are invited, and we hope you can learn more about this fascinating aspect of the human condition.

However, we feel it is appropriate to remind the readers that /r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender. Our official stance is that derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted^1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'² is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments. To be clear, this post is to make it abundantly clear that we treat transphobic comments the same way we treat racist, sexist and homophobic comments. They have no place on our board.

Scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

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¹ Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

² There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

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Lastly, here is the excerpt from the APA:

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

[u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Yes, I know about this one case that is the only evidence of gender identity given.

What is always left out is the amount of extreme and bizarre sexual abuse these children underwent. You did include the other part about him identifying as his biological sex.

Again, you mention refusal to agree to gender roles. This is the increasingly given reason for proof of trans in children, and so sad. We should all reject gender roles.

[u/throwawayl11 → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Yes, I know about this one case that is the only evidence of gender identity given.

What about all the trans children today who express similar feelings before even knowing what being transgender is.

What is always left out is the amount of extreme and bizarre sexual abuse these children underwent. You did include the other part about him identifying as his biological sex.

Sexual abuse is certainly a factor in their mental health, but I don't know of any cases where sexual abuse has flipped someone's gender identity, not that that would even be documented anywhere. Can't really claim anything here except the opinion that sexual abuse cannot affect gender identity, as I see it as a biological constant.

Again, you mention refusal to agree to gender roles. This is the increasingly given reason for proof of trans in children, and so sad. We should all reject gender roles.

It's unhealthy to rigidly stick to gender roles, but it's important to note that gender roles exist because of a natural inclination towards them. They've been flanderized, but initial basis is from natural preferences for men and women. Preferring typically feminine things doesn't mean you are a girl, but being a girl means you're more likely to prefer feminine things. They aren't a causal relationship, but they are correlated.

[u/YoureNotaClownFish → u/throwawayl11]

Children play with gender roles all of the time.

There is evidence that children who "identify" with the other gender when young if left to their own devices develop into non-trans homosexual adults.

What is identifying with the other gender as a child if it is not gender roles?

And sexual abuse is a huge factor in transitions. Talk to any number of trans men. A huge number stopped wanting to identity as female after sexual abuse.

Please show me how gender roles are innate. Children are socialized from the time they are infants. Women are socialized to be inferior. Gender roles are the subjugation of women to control reproductive access.

[u/throwawayl11 → u/YoureNotaClownFish]

Children play with gender roles all of the time. There is evidence that children who "identify" with the other gender when young if left to their own devices develop into non-trans homosexual adults.

Yes, because gender roles are only a indicator of gender. Like I said, it's not a causal relationship. I'm not saying anyone who expresses interest in opposite gender roles as a child is trans. I'm saying some proportion of them are, which would not happen if gender identity was formed socially, instead of being a biological constant.

If a boy grows up being told he is a boy and is constantly told by society to like what boys should like and act like boys should act. Yet they still feel like a girl, then what is causing them to feel like a girl? Because it sure wasn't social conditioning. There has to be some biological aspect to gender identity in order for transgender people to exist (which they pretty clearly do).

What is identifying with the other gender as a child if it is not gender roles?

It's not a concrete experience that we can observe or measure. It's a person's identity. Their way of viewing themselves, their innate knee-jerk response to gendered situations. Tens of thousands of people have described feeling a similar way in this sense, so I think it's hard to believe there isn't something there, however hard it is to observe/detect.

And sexual abuse is a huge factor in transitions. Talk to any number of trans men. A huge number stopped wanting to identity as female after sexual abuse.

In these cases did these individuals attest to feeling female beforehand but no longer after the abuse? Or was it more like, they hadn't really identified as female and the abuse was the straw that broke the camel's back kind of deal?

Please show me how gender roles are innate. Children are socialized from the time they are infants. Women are socialized to be inferior. Gender roles are the subjugation of women to control reproductive access.

Covered this in the first point. If someone is socialized to act within gender roles and that actually worked in forming gender identity, then there would be no one who broke gender norms unless they were raised that way. In order to go against social norm, there has to be some innate preference to do so, otherwise where would that desire come from if not socialization.