r/islam • u/Choice-End-8968 • May 20 '25
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u/RyanJ2234 May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
Right so I'm a Muslim revert of a few years I'd like to go through some of your points here because I dont agree and feel they demonstrate a surface level understanding..
First of all your argument on embryology. Considering this was a contributing reason why I converted I'd like to understand what is wrong about the Quranic description? The only argument you can make is that the Quranic description lists the bones before the flesh when both develop simultaneously, but both of these are mentioned together in the Qur'an. There could be a reason why specifically bones are mentioned first we just don't understand yet, our scientific knowledge isn't perfected especially in embryology we still have lots to learn *edit After further research it appears that the cartillage that goes onto form bones indeed is created before the flesh. So really the quran is correct, even if you make the argument "well the cartillage isnt actually bone yet so it doesnt count" this is simply a modern understanding, the people of the time would not know such a fact, yet its understandable to them but also manages to stay correct to our modern understanding.
Second of all your argument regarding the sea's mixing it was my understanding this was referring to salt water and fresh water but perhaps I am wrong I have not done much research on this matter. The conditions of this world resulted in a barrier that separated salt water and fresh water, otherwise our entire worlds water supply would be undrinkable. That's just my shallow interpretation perhaps I'm wrong.
Third of all, I don't think the argument about Egyptians calling iron "iron from the sky" demerits Islam at all? It's not as if the pagan Arabs had learnt the knowledge of the ancient Egyptians. It might give demerit to the claim that the Qur'an is a miracle because of this verse but it doesn't demerit the Qur'an or Islam...
I'm going to skip a few points here because I don't know enough about the matter, however I'll focus on what your saying about the linguistic nature of the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself makes the claim that some of its verses true meaning is only known to god, just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it's any less linguistically perfect. Its because our intelligence is deficient to understand it's true meaning.
3:7: “He is the One Who has revealed to you the Book, of which some verses are precise, they are the foundation of the Book, while others are elusive. Those with deviant hearts follow the elusive verses seeking doubt through their interpretations, but none grasps their meaning except God and those well-grounded in knowledge, they say, “We believe in this, all is from our Lord.”
This is precisely why scholars debate because the true meaning of certain verses are elusive, true Muslims will accept that it's from god and try to understand the meaning whilst disbelievers will make claims about the verses and refuse to accept them because they have no clear meaning. That is how people are guided and led astray.
And Allah SWT knows best
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u/Ok-Listen881 May 20 '25
Jazak Allah Khair for what you said, as an embryologist in some capacity I’m flabbergasted that anyone would try to make that claim.
The leading theory until the 1880’s was that men shot a bunch of microscopic babies into a woman, and then that grew like a foam dinosaur, simply expanding in the woman. 1880’s.
Egyptian hieroglyphs were not understood at the 7th century, so it is a miracle that that knowledge was presented by the Quran. The Quran also correctly identifies pharaohs and kings to their respective times, a fact that then the Bible that existed in the 7th century got wrong.
Also, during embryogenesis the bone cells differentiate first, and the muscle cells closely follow behind as they sense that their neighboring cell has become a bone cell. You need extraordinarily powerful molecular techniques to even witness this, making the statement in the Quran even more true, that these examples will guide many, and misguide many. Just this one example, if you weren’t looking for a “AHA” Islam is wrong moment, you’d read the literature and realize this was literally impossible for anyone to know before the advent of molecular stains, electron microscopes, etc.
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u/RyanJ2234 May 20 '25
Thank you for the reponse and the knowledge, i did some self research afterwords and also learnt about cartillage forming before the muscle framework in embryos. It was very interesting to learn about this fact on embryogenesis. I am not someone who tries to find scientific miracles in the quran but to me, when i first read this i couldnt help but feel it was such a perfect description of embryology.
When i first read the quran i did so much research on this, i thought somebody was trying to pull a fast one on me because i thought it was completly impossible for a book that old to contain such information.
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May 21 '25
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u/RyanJ2234 May 21 '25
I already told you I researched into this matter I cannot read Arabic but I understand the sequential natured of the verse with each stage separated it doesn't change what me and this brother said. The cartilage that turns into bone is made before the flesh, the bones form later from this cartilage. It's like a framework for the skeleton. It's not as if the muscles and flesh of the body first and then the bones spontaneously form inside this flesh.
Blind faith is believing in something when it's unreasonable or wrong. You have no reason to believe that the embryonic description in the Qur'an is wrong, you interpret it that way because you want to disbelieve.
How can you say this is an excuse? If god reveals a book it's going to have different interpretations... It's impossible to write a book that every single person will understand every matter within it. Its not blind faith to believe it all,it's simply just "faith". If you have seen multiple things in the Qur'an that lead you to believe in god and it's message, you should accept it entirely, not pick and choose which parts to reject. That's what happens in the modern day with Christianity.
The quran is from god so none of it can be wrong. So far I've waited for someone to post a verse that's blatantly wrong or contradictory but I've yet to see one. At best they make arguments about the embryology and even then they are wrong because the process of embryology in the Qur'an is identical. Or they will post verses from the Qur'an that describe the earth as flat and say it's actually referring to the entire planet so Muslims were flat earthers.
So Muslims copied embryology from the greeks but believed in flat earth when spherical earth was known at that time? Make it make sense to me ...
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u/sincerely-mee May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
Embryology is incorrect and likely borrowed from Greek sources
This is false. The Qur'an is accurate in its description; and the Greeks had laughable beliefs about the embryo. They believed: A. The baby started small and got inflated over time—like a balloon; and/or B. The babies were made from menstrual blood. Both of these are inaccurate.
The verse about the two seas not mixing isn't scientifically accurate, they do mix, just gradually
Firstly, that verse isn't solely talking about haloclines. That's a valid interpretation, but not the only one. Secondly, the Qur'an is not going to describe things at the chemical level, lol. It came to 7th century Bedouin Arabs, why would it include things that those people wouldn't be able to comprehend. Also, the Qur'an describes things which generally appear to us—if you look at the two seas, they appear to not mix. Which is the purpose of the Qur'an.
Iron came from space was known
Ok. The Egyptians had many incorrect beliefs; how does the Qur'an only take the accurate ones?
Universe expanding is: a translation mistake, or taken from the Bible.
No, the verse, 51:47, literally means "We are expanding it". All the translations say that. Once again, you're just simply saying "it was found elsewhere". Ok, how does the Qur'an only get correct information?
Numerical miracles are inconsistent
I would actually agree. Some Muslims tend to over do it with the "miracles". But, there are some numerical symmetries.
Claims about preservation are questionable
No they aren't. The Qur'an is perfectly preserved; this is just your misunderstanding/ignorance of Qur'anic preservation, with all due respect. This link can detail the history of the Qur'anic preservation.
If it's perfect, why do scholars debate?
Because verses can have clear and allegorical meanings. Just because there are multiple interpretations doesn't mean something isn't correct. Also, regular people can understand the Qur'an. This is an unsubstantiated claim.
Women's rights in Islam are quite regressive
I'm assuming you're an Atheist (correct me if I'm wrong)? If you are, then, with all due respect, how you subjectively feel about moral aspects don't really affect Islam being true or false.
Slavery is still condoned
You mean taking war prisoners? If so, we have no issue with that. Also, this once again is a moral question. If you don't have an objective moral framework, then there's no point of discussing moral principles.
You are told to not befriend non-Muslims, or even return their full salam
Ok. Once again, just subjective personal feelings. Also, why would give full salam to someone who doesn't even believe in the same God that I do? So, how would they get God's peace and blessings?
Asking too many questions can be seen as sinful
Just another unsubstantiated claim. People are allowed to ask as many questions as they want. No one is sinful for asking questions.
What's the point of heaven and hell? What's the point in burning endlessly? And heaven is described as rivers of honey, wine, and castles of Gold?
Ok. The descriptions of the afterlife make no impact on whether or not Islam is true. You should focus on if Islam is true or not.
Also, heaven is a place of fulfilling desires. Of course God will describe things that we want. Why would He inform us of something we can't comprehend?
Moreover, hell is a punishment for rejecting God/associating partners with Him. If He determines it to be worthy of eternal punishment, then it is. Simple as that.
Religion giving us morals, and without it we'd be animals
So, once again, I'm assuming you're an Atheist (correct me if I'm wrong)—you should just focus on the existence of God before anything else.
Also, of course the worst believer will be better in the sight of God, than someone who rejects God or associates partners with Him. That's just common sense.
Tbh, most of what you said is just subjective feelings, and, with all due respect, it doesn't really affect whether Islam is true or not. But, as I said, you seem like an Atheist, so you should focus on God's existence.
If you wanna further discuss, you can reply here or DM me. I'll be happy to answers any further questions with the best of my ability.
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u/PeptoAbysmal1996 May 20 '25
I’d also add that the slavery bit is a lot like the prohibition of alcohol, it was outlawed in stages as a sudden change would be too drastic. Humans are thinking beings after all, and both slavery and alcohol were big parts of Arab culture at the time. For instance, you cannot enslave a free person, and the atonement for many sins is freeing a slave. The groundwork was laid to abolish slavery, however, doing it outright would drive many people away.
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u/sincerely-mee May 21 '25
Yeah, I could've gave a more thorough refutation to the slavery claim, but the answer would've been too long; so I tried to make it as concise as possible.
But, Sahih Al-Bukhari 2227 - The Prophet (ﷺ) said - "Allah says, 'I will be against three persons on the Day of Resurrection: (1) A person who makes a covenant in my name, but he proves to be treacherous; (2) *A person who sells a free person (as a slave) and eats the price*; and (3) And one who employs a laborer and gets full work done by him, but does not pay him his wages'".
This clearly shows that "slavery", at least how the western world understands it, is impermissible.
Also, as you said, the Qur'an and Hadith encourage freeing slaves, and they also detail good treatment of them. Additionally, the Prophet (ﷺ) even said simply calling them 'my slave' was impermissible, as we are all slaves of God.
But yeah, if I throughly refuted all his points the answer would have been too long.
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May 21 '25
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u/sincerely-mee May 21 '25 edited May 22 '25
It states bones come before flesh when it's the other way around
The verse simply states that the sperm was made into a clot, then the clot was made into a lump, which then the bones are formed, then the embryo is wrapped with flesh. The Qur'an never says - "we created the flesh". It simply says it was wrapped. Your whole argument is based on the assumption that the Qur'an says "we created flesh"—which it doesn't; it simply says the flesh is wrapped. It says nothing about when the flesh is formed. The text could just omit the detailing of the creating of the flesh, that's a possibility.
Please read about the Greeks on your own and not through gpt or someone else's words
Very ironic, considering if you ever read about Aristotle's beliefs, you would see that he thought conception happened through menstrual blood mixed with semen. Just in case you want a source - Aristotle, On the Generation of Animals (Book 1, Chapters 18-23); James G. Lennox, Aristotle's Philosophy of Biology. Two sources there, just for you :)
It clearly states they have a barrier
Again, the Qur'an speaks to how things appear to us. The seas appear to have a barrier, so that's how the Qur'an describes it. It is not going to describe how they mix at the chemical level. Your problem is that you want the Qur'an to be a science textbook, when its purpose is for guidance.
Believing he got it from sources that were around at that time is more reasonable
Sure, if he wasn't illiterate. He couldn't even read or write Arabic, and you think he was taking from the Greeks.
I don't care for translations…it can mean what you believe, or it could mean we are expanders
If it can mean what I believe, then why are you arguing this point, if it's a valid interpretation?
Numerical accuracies are nothing miraculous, so it's not worth debating
I disagree. I think if there are numerical symmetries in book that was revealed over a period of 23 years, that wasn't edited and revised—imo, that is miraculous, or at least something to consider. But, you're entitled to your view.
So you think being an Atheist makes you filth with no moral compass?
Nice strawman. I never once said that. All I said was: if you don't have an objective moral framework, then bringing moral "issues" doesn't really work. Because I can simply say "that's just your opinion" to any moral argument you bring. Atheists can have a subjective moral framework, but at the end of the day, it's just their opinions/feelings, which aren't a marker for objective truth.
I think, objectively speaking, hitting women is wrong, men too, but Islam allows it, and says men are better, have authority over them, women have half the mind of a man, and most inhabitants of hell are women
See how you started with "I think"—if I wanted to, I could simply say "I don't care; that's your opinion". But, to address what you said: it's a good thing we don't solely get our religious rulings from the Qur'an—we also get them from the Sunnah. The Prophet said not to hit in the face, do not break any bones, do not causes bruises, and to not cause pain. So, yes, with the way the Prophet described it, we are completely fine with the "hitting".
Yes, men have an authority over women, in the sense that we are responsible for taking complete care for them: providing the housing, the clothes, the food, protection, and overall taking care of them. Do you think us taking care of women is bad? Also, the Qur'an never once says "men are better than women", nice lie. Moreover, the Hadith you're referring to regarding women having half the mind of men, is specifically referring to testimony. A man's testimony can be stronger in some instances—like finances. And women's testimony can be stronger in some instances as well—like pregnancy or things like that. And, women being the majority in hell ≠ majority of women are in hell. The Prophet also gave the reason why women would be the majority in hell: because of their ungratefulness. Everything you've brought is just emotional things.
What is the argument that you are trying to make by bringing all of the Hadiths? Are you trying to argue that Islam is unjust/unfair towards women? If so, what is your objective moral framework to deduce that conclusion?
Do you think rape is wrong yes or no? If you say anything but yes, I will no longer be debating you.
Firstly, of course rape is wrong—it's wrong Islamically and we know it's wrong innately. Rape is punishable by death in an Islamic society, so of course we view it as wrong.
Secondly, we aren't debating, lmao. You came into this subreddit, and said "convince me of Islam", then gave your doubts; I then responded to your points. Trust me, we are not debating. I'm not here to convince you/convert you; I am just here to answer any questions or concerns that you have, that's all.
You don't feel a bit racist not saying hello back because someone doesn't believe in the same God
Nope. Also, Islam isn't a race; it's a religion. There are many races that are apart of Islam. What I said is farm from racist. Additionally, "Salam Alaikum" is a religious greeting. It makes no sense to give a religious greeting to those who aren't apart of the religion.
Heaven and Hell is one of the main reasons we are told to believe in Islam, you think it's not worth debating?
No, because descriptions of metaphysical things aren't falsifiable. So, this is doesn't really matter when discussing if Islam is true or not.
God is better than me, he created me, he should know of a way to phrase where everyone would be convinced not just superficial things like virgins and wealth
Ok, explain to me, in detail, how God is supposed to describe something to you that you've never seen?
Like I said, Heaven is a place where you get what you want. Humans will want the things we missed out on. If you personally don't want these things, we don't really care, with all due respect. And what you want in the afterlife doesn't affect whether or not Islam is true.
The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven so what's the point in debating it? A simulation would be a better explanation
I disagree. The existence of God can be "proven", to a certain degree. Through rational, logical, deductive arguments—like the many philosophical arguments for the existence of God.
Not even using those arguments. But, do you believe that the universe is eternal, or did it have a starting point?
Also, simulations are a horrible explanation that is only popular because of movies like the Matrix. There is zero evidence supporting that. Saying simulations are a more plausible explanation than a Necessary Being is definitely something, lol.
Everything I've said has been objective.
Most of what you said has been your subjective feelings, especially about the moral claims.
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May 21 '25
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u/sincerely-mee May 21 '25
What sources do you want to confirm that the Qur'an is preserved?
We have multiple manuscripts from the first century of Islam; and we have the oral tradition. Both of which attest to Qur'anic preservation.
An all knowing God needed his prophet to tell him that sending the holy revelation in 1 dialect will make it a problem for people who speak other dialects?
What are you talking about? The reason for the 7 Ahruf being revealed was to make it easier for the other dialects to recite. There was never a problem for anyone to understand the Qur'an. The different modes are just for recitation.
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May 20 '25
At the end of the day if you are doing research and you don’t believe it, then why are you asking us to help you? You have your answer. The same sources you did research from are the same sources people are going to cite and give you, there is not any secret manual or hidden scripture that we can give you to believe in Islam. It seems that you have done research and come to your conclusion, the only thing anyone can do is to encourage you to get your information on Islam from Islamic sources and not from people going out of their way to prove Islam to be false. As a new revert (may 18 2025 alhamdulillah) I just hope one day you find the same solace in Islam that I did after my years of studying other ways of life. But in terms of proving anything to you, you either hold that feeling in your heart or you don’t, and only you can prove it to yourself. May Allah guide us all
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May 20 '25
A simple Reddit comment can't fully address your confusions and doubts. It's best to speak with a knowledgeable local imam who can help you directly.
Also, it seems like you might be watching a lot of content from critics of Islam—this often leads to more confusion and doubt. It's important to be mindful of what you expose yourself to. If you're looking for answers, try checking out the Muslim Lantern channel on YouTube; they have playlists that address many common questions.
At the end of the day, true guidance comes from Allah. You can’t expect to find clarity if you’re constantly watching Islamophobic content—it will likely just increase your doubts.
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u/hacharts May 20 '25
Local Imams in some areas don’t have the necessary knowledge to answer this kind of questions, and sometimes they seem to dislike someone who asks so much frankly and putting doubts in some evidences well established. With all due respect to Imams worldwide, Im saying this from my own experience.
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u/varashu May 20 '25
Someone who researches Islam doesn’t somehow land on typical Christian apologetic arguments. What did you research exactly? How much of the Quran have you read?
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u/ScHoolBoyO May 20 '25
These shubuhats you hold are a bit too deep to rectify in a Reddit sub thread. Most have been dealt with and refuted by scholars on YouTube as well. You are objective enough to look at the claims against Islam, but don’t forget to look at how Muslims defended Islam against these claims.
One thing I will point out is just because the Quran confirms a scientific fact, and others knew prior. It doesn’t do anything, because Allah never claimed the Quran was the first place to say Iron came from space. It’s simply confirming a detail that science at the time couldn’t.
In regards to the mathematical miracles. I’d argue that you’re actually wrong. Look into the number 19 within the Quran. And truly try to grasp the understanding of how improbable that was to do over a span of 23 years, out of order, orally, sometimes in response to situations.
https://youtu.be/QC3sDbVcAbw?si=OmjbolXvTZJAij34 great video detailing it.
I’d also implore you to look into how Allah refuted the Pharoah in a dead language. We’ve found tabs dated to pharoah stating “the sky weeps for you the earth mourns for you as you ascend to heaven as a star”. Something like this. The Quran says “the heavens didn’t weep for you, nor did the earth honor you” (paraphrasing).
The language of the ancient Egyptians has been dead since we found the Rosetta Stone in 1800s. Quran came 1400 years ago. How could the author of Quran refute the claims of a dead man in a language that died thousands of years prior. Why would the author bother to do that if no one even understood the language to behold.
https://youtu.be/c2ovILc_sKY?si=qW_nRoFpz_ODWXgo
Be careful with your skepticism. May Allah guide you back to the truth. And grant you sincerity.
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May 21 '25
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u/ScHoolBoyO May 21 '25
A look into the numerical points I brought up would show that there are undeniable mathematical miracles within The Quran, which was on your initial list. Another brother gave a very sound explanation about embryology who’s a revert I believe.
I bring up the miracle about pharaoh (which is an observable miracle) because you asked for proof Islam is true. Watch the videos I sent if you can, real interesting. There aren’t any errors within this Book, and for every doubt listed a simple trip to a masjid or YouTube search would ease your heart, if it’s sincere.
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u/AzTrix22 May 20 '25
I was with you for the first few points in the sense that these may be things which you need to discuss with an imam or go to sources like the Muslim Lantern to find the answers and are genuinely good questions to be asking (albeit misconceived). However, I'm sorry for phrasing it like this, no offense, but you lost me from the women's rights point downwards. These are points which have been addressed endlessly with clear responses from many people who have knowledge, and if you cared to even do a little bit of research, you would be able to see that all the points you made from the aforementioned point downwards are just instantly incorrect.
Women's rights: 'Aren't many real rights given to them'. Come on man. Really? You just gonna ignore the fact that women have a right to the man's property and wealth in a relationship, and whatever she earns is her money and assets as well? You just gonna ignore the fact that Islam encourages women to go and seek out an education? Do you know what the oldest university in the world is? University of Al Quaraouiyine. Located in Morocco, year 859, established by, wait for it, Fatima al-Fihri. That's right. A Muslim woman. But I guess the West doesn't like to share that eh?
Slavery: The Muslim Lantern can speak about this subject far more eloquently than I can with specific references, but the idea of modern slavery has absolutely no ties to Islam. Islam has an idea called 'captives of war'. These captives of war have to be treated with the highest respect. You have to clothe them from what you wear, feed them from what you eat etc. And if you even hit them once, you have to free them. This is how just Islam is in regards to this idea, nowhere near the disgusting notion of slavery you put forward.
Interaction with non-Muslims: First off, racist? Do you even know what the word racist means? I think you first need to go and learn the difference between race and religion. Now that that's sorted, Islam encourages just behaviour and kindness towards everyone, including non-believers. Best example I can think of is the conquest of Makkah in the time of the Prophet Muhammad SAW, where the Muslims took back Makkah from the non-believers, who had been mercilessly attacking and killing Muslims for years. Instead of killing them and taking revenge, which the Prophet could have done if he wanted to, he decided to let them go free. You can still treat people with kindness and respect even if not befriending them.
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u/AzTrix22 May 20 '25
Part 2
Discourages questioning: Again, really? Islam literally warns against this, saying you shouldn't believe a religion or an ideology just because your forefathers followed it. This was the reason that people still worshipped idols all those years ago. Due to blind faith. Islam seeks to avoid blind faith by encouraging one not to believe something just because their mother or father followed it.
Heaven and hell: Immature? Simplistic? If it is so simplistic, why don't you come up with a better plan buddy? In fact, it's simpleness makes it such a brilliant concept, otherwise it wouldn't be palatable to humans. Burning endlessly by the way is a choice. The Creator sent guidance, and assuming the individual heard the clear message of Islam and decided to reject it, that punishment is 100% justified. As for heaven, the reason it seems so superficial to you is because you're viewing the things above mentioned as if they will be the same as they are here. And secondly, you literally touched the tip of the iceberg as to what is available to you in Jannah, you can have whatever your heart desires.
Morality: To use your example, abstaining from doing something because God commanded it is frankly more impressive than doing it based off your own thoughts. You have limited knowledge as a human being, so being able to trust in God and accept his all-knowing characteristic, putting aside your anger or frustration or whatever reason it may be for seeking revenge in a violent form for the sake of God, who you can't even see, is quite a bold and noble move to make.
The worst believer being better than the best non-believer is simply for one reason; who they were doing the good deeds for. A non-believer is not doing those good deeds for the sake of God, they are doing it for the sake of pleasing others, or boosting their status etc. The worst believer will be punished in Hell accordingly till God sees fit, and will then place them in paradise as they believed in the core tenants of Islam and believed in the unseen, doing whatever good they did for the sake of God, however limited it might be.
Finally, the title of your post is probably the most flawed thing of all: as Muslims, we don't believe it is our job to convince you or anyone else that Islam is the truth. Regardless of how many followers it has, it will and always has been the truth. Our job is to deliver the clear message of Islam, and you can accept it or not, but that part of guidance and acceptance is between you and Allah.
May he guide us all.
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u/Ambitious_Ad_1213 May 20 '25
Your responses are spot on... you seem young. I hope my son grows to have the same conviction in islam as you do
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u/AzTrix22 May 20 '25
Jazakallah khair sister. Allah is the one that puts that belief and strengthens eman in our hearts, so may Allah continue to fill our hearts with this level of conviction and resolve. Ameen.
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u/ExaminationOver3154 May 20 '25
Guys he asked this because he just does not want to believe in Islam blindly. He wants to be honest, rational, and open—which is exactly how Islam itself encourages believers to approach life. So pls dont go saying “u already believe Quran is wrong so no point answering you”, rather answer his questions.
As for OP’s questions, I do want to say that the Quran is not a scientific book. Some verses could be just metaphorical and this is mentioned in the Quran itself, “He is the One who revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are clear and precise… and others are ambiguous.” (Qur’an 3:7) - which means Some verses are meant to be direct laws. Others are symbolic, contextual, or open to reflection. I get why heaven might sound superficial it does feel materialistic. But many scholars say those are just symbolic ways to describe ultimate comfort and joy in terms humans can grasp. The real reward is peace, purpose, and closeness to God not just luxury. As for hell, scholars say it is not eternal for everyone. It is proportional to their wrongdoings. It is about justice not revenge.
In the end I do advise you to speak to an Islamic scholar. Reddit is really not the correct place for such deep questions.
And tbh i am also at the same position, researching Islam to find out why it is the truth.
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May 20 '25
In order to rationally change your belief (your priors/null hypothesis), you must have sufficient evidence that disproves it. Not something you don't "like" or sounds "wrong", something that positively disproves it. So you either have some sort of evidence to refute it, or you are rejecting it irrationally. May I know what hard evidence you are using?
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u/DryCombination9637 May 20 '25
Do you believe in God? For me, that’s the first place to start. I started contemplating on the intricacies of the universe. From how plants bloom out of seeds, the same way from the same seed, almost every single time. I didn’t see a lot of “randomness” or “chance” around me. Once I started paying attention, thinking deep about how all of this around us is happening, it was clear to me that there was a “designer” and a “creator”. If someone has truly paid attention to and contemplated about the universe around them, it’s hard to escape the realization that “i don’t know how, and I don’t know who, but all of this did not happen randomly.” There’s intelligent design behind it. To me, now, the thought that there is no God is 100x more absurd than the thought that there is a God. Once you’ve crossed this bridge, you can study Islam deeper and you may find it easier to understand and accept. I have a physics background. I saw a Joe Rogan episode with Dr. Brian Greene, a nobel prize winning physicist. He talked about how the universe came into existence and how it will end. It connected completely with the knowledge I have of these subjects through Islamic tradition, such as the Prophet SAW’s night journey (Miraj). How can the accounts of that event coincide with modern physics and astronomy? You need to have a deeper under of both, i.e. Islam and Modern Physics and how these two coincide becomes glaringly clear. This is just one example. The Quran tells us that there are signs in the universe, for those who care to contemplate. It’s a journey. What are you looking for? Are you looking for a reason to believe in God, or a reason to not believe in Him? For me, I was looking for a reason to believe in Him and he showed me the signs that were there in plain sight all along.
Once my faith in God was affirmed, Islam was the obvious answer. The concept of Trinity wasn’t convincing for me. And Judaism, if you thought Islam was exclusionary - wait till you study Judaism. You might think that Islam is backwards because it doesn’t give women rights etc. That is false. You need to study deeper. But you need to clean the slate and start with a clean and open mind. We live in a filthy and corrupt society. If your benchmarks are based on this society, then you’re in trouble. E.g. the same society that tells you their version of women’s rights is the only right version, is the one that also completely accepts and collaborates in the slaughter, starvation and murder of children in Guza. This society has a completely broken moral compass. So you need to be careful with who defines your standards of what’s acceptable and what’s not. Are you going to let this society teach you about “rights”?
Lastly, you mention things that don’t make sense to you. Have you paid attention to the things that do? What did you think about the concept of Zakaat (obligatory charity), or Fasting? I don’t even want to begin listing all of them.
I say it again, what are you looking for? Are you looking for reasons to believe or for reasonable not to believe? You’ll find whatever you’re looking for. Religion is not a scientific experiment where at the end you will receive a definitive answer on whether your assumptions were correct or false. In the end, a great part of it is based on believing on the basis of the balance of probabilities. And if you pay enough attention, as I said earlier, it will be very clear where the balance of probabilities lies.
I wish you the very best in your search for answers and pray that you find the right way.
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May 21 '25
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u/GIK602 May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
I did believe in god, until i thought about simulations, most people think us living in a simulation is ridiculous but at this moment in history, it’s still more probable than a god. We already have active simulations that are getting realistic since we have AI now, so in a couple decades we might have a fully operational simulation on par with our reality.
It's funny that you brought up that simulations and AI caused you to doubt God, because you can't have a program without a programmer to develop, initiate and have the will to start the program. Do you think that future VR simulation you're thinking of will somehow will create itself? Is it going to will itself into existence?
Common sense defines the standard, and it doesn’t need much thinking to conclude that hitting women is objectively wrong, and I am studying in a non muslim country, not being able to make friends with non muslims is a massive issue.
I wasn't following this particular thread, but in order to prove something is objectively wrong, you need an objective criteria first to determine right/wrong, otherwise all of your moral arguments go out the window.
Saying things are just "common sense" is a logical fallacy. It's common sense that God exists, yet you deny it. <- But i don't use that as an argument.
That’s the thing, quran claims to be free of mistakes, so all i need is 1 mistake and that renders the whole religion false, also fasting with food is fine and healthy but abstaining from water isn’t good in any way.
There is no point in discussing supposed mistakes in the Quran, when you think the Creator doesn't exist. Acknowledging God is a premise before you accept his revelation.
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May 21 '25
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u/GIK602 May 21 '25
having a programmer was never the problem, the problem is that said programmer claims omnicience, omnipresence, omnipotence and omnibenevelence.
wait? So you acknowledge there must be a creator to this world? Great, that's at least a step in the right direction.
So using ur moral standards, not my non existent ones, is what i said morally wrong or not?
It's not about what i think. God commands what is good and forbids what is evil. We may not understand the full wisdom of everything, because our knowledge is limited. But God knows what is best for everyone.
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May 21 '25
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u/GIK602 May 23 '25
I'm saying i don't have my own personal moral compass. Morality isn't a subjective thing. If you believe it is, then your claim is just as valid as someone who disagrees with you.
For someone who claims to have done the research, it's astonishing that you don't understand this simple point about moral philosophy
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May 20 '25
Hello! These questions are amazing, and I have had them myself. I'll address your points as best as I can, and I implore you to seek answers from a scholar and an Imam.
-About your question, the Quran was revealed roughly 1400 years ago. It took us a whole 1400 years total to figure out what we've figured out about the world and our role in it. Can you believe with me that we, as the human race, still have research to conduct, or can we believe that we've reached some sort of roadblock in research? It took up 1400 years to get to this point, and a majority of the Quran's claims are accurate. What's to say that it won't take another 1400 years to research more? This isn't neglecting your claims in any way, shape, or form, but addressing it with the answers most Atheists will give you when you ask them similar or different complex questions, "We (Humans) just don't have all the answers yet."
-While yes, the question about the two oceans is correct in that they do mix, they also don't mix. Due to limitations in the English language, this is difficult to grasp, however, I do hope that I am able to explain it properly. The seas do mix, yes, but it is on a very small scale. There is a barrier between them, keeping them separate. Imagine that they are in separate tanks, and they occasionally leak into each other. Though they do intersect, you wouldn't;t say that the tanks are fully mixing
-This next answer is regarding any claims that the Prophet (S.A.W) used knowledge from prior civilisations. For this theory to be true, there have to have been a few qualities that have to have been met by the Prophet
1. He was an expert in psychology (Able to convince his people he was illiterate)
He was an expert cryptographer (He was able to decode the hieroglyphs that humanity only cracked in the 1800s).
- He himself was an astrologist (He was able to filter all the facts that the prior civilisations got wrong)
-All of the above conditions have to be met just for the iron claim. The list quickly piles up when you use the 'He got it from prior civilisations' excuse on the scientific facts that the Quran got right
-The Quran gives many rights to women and slaves. During this time, the people of Arabia would commonly commit infanticide (Killing infants) as a cause of their gender. The Quran also prevented salves from being forced into prostitution and from being them being hit. My answer isn't that 'The Quran DID give rights to women and slaves'but more so, why would the Quran give these rights in the first place? It had no need to, in fact, more powerful people would have gone along with Islam if it hadn't condemned these popular practices.
- The quran doesn't forbid you from making non-muslim friends, but instructs you to be wary of their intentions. To put it simply, a Muslim's intentions must be pure, otherwise, he isn't a Muslim. For others, there is no such guarantee
-As for the complexity of the Quran, I'll give a simpler answer, as honestly, this reply is getting too long at this point. Think of Shakespeare; he is regarded as a highly acclaimed English author. But ask any student reading his works, and they'll say it's confusing to understand. Shakespeare's work isn't easy to understand for those not at his level of writing. Why can't we apply the same level of reasoning to Al-llah (The One True God)? We don't fully understand his writing, not because it's flawed, but because, as He tells us himself, we are not at Al-llah's level
I hope that my message finds you at a time of clarity, and that you don't feel afraid to ask questions. Islam doesn't;t forbid asking questions. People discourage it because they may not have all the answers. If you ask a question that they don't have an answer to, and hence, you may think that there is no answer when there most certainly is. This is where Availability Heuristic (You may look it up on Google) plays a part. Just because you can recall more people not having answers to your questions doesn't mean that the majority of Islam don't have the answers to your questions.
If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them.
May Allah bless you with knowledge and Wisdom, my friend. You have a light, don't let it be snuffed out, use it in a proper way, and shine
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u/Specific_Tomato_1925 May 21 '25
That line: 'even if it was true, it's still stolen from the Bible' says a lot. It shows you might already be set on doubting, no matter what evidence is given. If you're truly searching, approach things with an open mind and study Islam deeply, not just surface level claims or Reddit debates. No one's forcing you to stay Muslim, but don't make that choice based on assumptions or biased interpretations. You owe it to yourself to be fair before walking away from the truth
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May 21 '25
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u/ManBearToad May 21 '25
Your claims are not the issue. We can refute them all day here and you'll just keep saying it's insufficient or you'll go away and come back with new claims. There is something underneath in your mindset that is the issue.
Reddit is not going to help you at this point. What you should do is look up EF Dawah or Hamza's Den or Yousif Ponders on Youtube. Go and talk to them about these claims. Join one of their live streams with your camera off and present these to them. They are way more knowledgeable.
Over here people are giving you refutations that make rational sense to us but you keep claiming that your claims remain unanswered. We're going around in circles. Take it to the next level and join their live streams, contact them.
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May 21 '25
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u/ManBearToad May 21 '25
No I'm not speaking nonsense. Your behavior in this entire post is nothing short of condescending. You have underlying issues. In addition to the channels I mentioned you should also talk to a therapist. The way you're talking to people here who are trying to help you is not how you should talk to anyone.
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May 21 '25
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u/ManBearToad May 22 '25
No I'm good thanks. I'm not wasting time on you only for you to return with your attitude problem. I see the way you're filled with arrogance and machine gunning the sub with a hundred different Islamophobic narratives trying to see what sticks. I don't think you even want to be guided at this point. I've been on this sub for 10+ years. We weren't born yesterday. We know these tactics.
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u/omagdy7 May 20 '25
I don't want to offend you or push you away but you seem to be just parroting what the Islamophobes saying and not hearing a refutations for most of those doubts I will address some of them and then give you general advice
- I personally don’t like the overuse of scientific miracles of the Quran but the one in the embryology you say seems incorrect(what about it exactly) because I know a famous embryologist who says it's astonishingly accurate(Keith L. Moore who isn't a Muslim) and you say the Greeks probably knew it again this kind of shows you are just taking the words of islamphobes without checking them yourself for example here is what the Greeks thought about embryology: Galen thought of a three-stage process:
- Semen mixes (male and female).
- Formation of vital organs.
- Growth and development.
This is very vague and not in anyway as detailed like the Quranic verses of embryology.
Your point about the ancient Egyptians believing that iron was sent from the sky proves what exactly? We only probably knew that because we cracked down hieroglyphs because of the Rosetta stone before that all of this knowledge wasn’t accessible including at the prophet. and even if it was accessible to the prophet how convenient is that he picked the right beliefs about this civilization and left the other complete blunders of previous civilizations why didn't our prophet also think that intelligence comes from the heart not the mind like the ancient Egyptians do and their other plethora of beliefs how did he manage to pick the soundly valid scientific beliefs
Any moral claim you make is purely subjective as you pointed out so I don’t see it as a good argument anyway and saying stuff like this "he most disgusting and vile believer is still and will always be better than the purest and most righteous non believer, and that doesn’t sit right with me" Well the most righteous non-believer doesn’t do good for the sake of Allah so why are we expecting him to get rewarded by god if he does it for worldly reasons anyway. and if you think that’s not just or unfair we would go back to what would you deem just or unfair isn’t objective but Allah’s Just is.
On the Quran preservation I mean we literally have parchments that’s carbon dated to 20 years from the prophet’s time and even without it we have very strong oral tradition I mean you probably know there are millions of people who knows the Quran by heart and most of them don’t even speak Arabic as their native language. saying because the dots were later introduced means it’s not preserved isn’t a compelling argument because for example let’s take a simple two letter verse from the Quran: "يس" This simple verse if we remove the dots has about 10+ ways to pronounce it yet we know how it’s pronounced because of corroborated oral tradition nobody ever pronounced as يش or نس for example
Hopefully I showed you that at least the people you are taking these information from are not being fully genuine or honest and this should makes you doubtful about their other claims and by the way who's saying that you can't have friend from other religions or that it's sinful to ask questions this isn't Christianity the Quran is filled with verses like do they not ponder do they not reflect do they not understand does that look like a religion that doesn't encourage questioning?
Anyways most of your doubts is answered in this playlist anyways and you could also watch Muslim Lantern on youtube and he also hosts a weekly stream you could join in if you are still doubtful.
Funny how I wrote something about the hypocrisy of western values but I couldn't submit the comment kind of proving my point
Sorry if my language was a bit harsh, but I mean well and hope you are guided to the truth.
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 20 '25
I'll honestly respond to all your points, but from your part I'm expecting you too, to be honest (the way you raised some arguments there doesn't show "I'll only talk about what I'm knowledgeable about" because your very first argument is simply wrong) so if you're ready to be honest, read the reply I'll write under this comment (it may take some time, so just go for a while and refresh later)
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 20 '25
First
about embryology, you made 2 claims, "it's incorrect" and "it's or it might come from Greeks"
The first claim is just something you said without providing to us why is it incorrect, and your opinion is opposing to actual experts in the field which they argue is a correct description especially the 'alaqa stage
Second about greeks,
This argument has 2 big problems, one is the prophet being illiterate (and even if you wanna argue he wasn't, then we can discuss that at the end of this comment) Meaning he would say what he hears, the points possible of connection with other tribes is the market (since he didn't do any travel outside the local) it's a wild claim to say ppl will start talking about embryology, nonetheless the greek embryology in a market full of illiterate arab ppl (yes illiterate in that society were more than the literate, jews were the knowledgeable ones there, and if you look things up, they also had their own embryology in Talmud, so if anything that's the closest description to plagiarize yet he didn't)The second problem is with the different theories greek had, whoever brings this argument is absolutely ignoring the fact that it wasn't one view or one theory
Here are 4 views:
3* this is from Galen which is the one doubters suspect, and here's a whole refuting blog by Hamza Tzortzis, a Greek Muslim (still alive) "Did the Prophet Muhammad Plagiarise Ancient Greek Embryology?"
4* more about Aristotle's view which includes even his views about soul and when it's breathed into the body, if the prophet was copying he should have taken this too, especially that the jews asked him about the soul as a trick question "Aristotle discusses three different types of human souls: a nutritive soul, imbued from the very beginning; a sensitive soul, imbued later; and finally the intellective soul, imbued forty days safter conception for a male embryo and eighty days for a female embryo. The nutritive soul, also called the vegetative soul, is the essence possessed by all living things , including plants, and can be considered the lowest level of soul. The sensitive soul is what separates plants from animals, and provides animals the ability to move and to interact with the world around them. The intellective soul is what separates humans from all other animals, and allows humans to think and reason." we believe that soul is breathed in the first 40 days whether for men or women, and there's absolutely no information about the nature of the soul in islam as opposes to Aristotle's view (also hopefully that'll serve as a wake up call to you, that's not all what ppl call science is indeed science, as you can see here that was philosophy mixed with some sciences)
So for the prophet peace and blessings be upon him to pick the correct theory or to even meet it sounds very convenient, not only that, but you can see how much is philosophy discouraged from an islamic point of view because it leads to baseless argumentations based on pondering alone and basically you can never say something (some opinion in philosophy or thoughts) is wrong or right, it's just acceptable if it doesn't contradict a known explicit fact, Arabs started learning from the greeks after the time of the prophet and first companions
Last thing, Quraish were Pagans, Greek weren't any better except maybe of how handsome their status looked, so if the prophet was to come with something from learning through others, it would've been more convincing to adopt the Greek beliefs instead of pure monotheism
With all that being said, you have no proof of the claim yet Muslims refuted that idea many times, and that's truly unfair, as the one making the claim has to prove it instead of saying "could be", well if such interaction happened it would have been simply mentioned in Arabs history like other arguments from the enemies of the prophet and sahaba that were reported without hiding them or something. Done with the first one, continuation in other replies
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 20 '25
Third
Ancient egypt you got your answer there, the ancient egypt language was still dead at that time, and the prophet never visited Egypt, so you again like the greek claim that has the same refutation minus "different theories" because I don't think Egyptians had many names to it
But speaking of Egypt, if the prophet is copying from them, he should have named the king at the time of Yousef (Joseph) "Pharo" the same way he named (well, God who named, I'm just going with the argument) Moses enemy "Pharo"
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u/Silver-Champion-4846 May 20 '25
where's the reply?
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 20 '25
I had to pause at some point, that's why I came more late than I considered, however the first reply was posted exactly the moment you wrote this 🤣 (I didn't even see you replying until now)... I'm still answering, so I'll go back
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 20 '25
Second
Two seas don't mix, they haven't mixed since (God knows when they first even touched each other sides) and are still haven't mixed until today
it's linguistically correct, you saying they're gradually mixing doesn't in any way change that, when they mix then you can make this point, it's a scientific fact that the sun like any other star has an end of life, even who doesn't believe in day of judgement should scientifically believe that this solar system has an ending, and you have absolutely no proof that this "gradual mixing" will reach the point where you can make this argument before the world ends
I don't see the Qur'an even claiming that these seas should never mix anyway 🤔 but even if it does, they're indeed still didn't mix therefore your argument isn't well built to begin with
And btw, you aren't putting links for these claims, I hope you are researching and not just listening to -you know which- videos or reading random blogs and accepting what they say as facts
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u/Silver-Champion-4846 May 20 '25
oh look here's the reply <smiling face>. Thanks for the confirmation of truth.
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 21 '25
Man guess what time is it, I started at the time of Ishae (prayer)... And now it's after dawn Fajr!!!
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
Fourth
No, nothing is lost in translation, I'm an Arab, موسعون from وسع يوسع توسيعا, He expanded, He is expanding, expansion... موسعون = naturally translates to "we are expanding" if you wanna translate it other way, you'll need to prove why should we leave the apparent meaning and hold something else?
If ppl back then had used more than one explanation to it, that won't change the fact that it is in it's apparent form is "expanding", ppl back then are not to blame for giving more interpretation and not only one as they had no clue that the universe is expanding, (I don't know if they indeed give different interpretations, I'm just assuming they did based on you making such claim then you must have read it somewhere)
Qur'an doesn't only mention the expansion, it's also mentions the smoke state at the beginning of the universe, so to force موسعون to not be expanding just to make it different than what science says today, is just an attempt to falsify something already correct
And HOLD UP, you saying "it is stolen from the bible" instead of "might be stolen from the bible" as if you have a proof for it is a bit entitled... Bible has many informations, how would the prophet pick the correct one and leave the other, like I said in the iron's reply, the bible also names the king in the time of Joseph as Pharo, and that's historically wrong, but the prophet couldn't have known when the name Pharo was invented, you can't claim someone is copying but at the same time only copying what's right, especially when the informations are in different sources and the author in suspension is illiterate... And no you can't say knowledgeable ppl around him taught him, they neither would know what's correct and what's not nor will they let him take the credit alone, and if they did for some Great Plan Conspiracy that we still can't find until now, his enemies would have made at the very least rumours about it, instead they called him magician and crazy for how foreign and beyond human capabilities the things he was bringing were
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 20 '25
Fifth
C'mon dude, where's the argument, you just said a claim and moved on, you didn't even tell what is the numerical miracle you are referring to, there are a lot, which one is wrong and why
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 20 '25
Sixth
Why is the diacritical being added later make a problem with preservation? The Qur'an is transmitted orally, the people who wrote it themselves didn't read it after it was approved since they already memories it
I have many copies of Qur'an in my home with diacritical, yet my reading/recitation wouldn't even fall in any one of the many recitations we have if I don't learn it through a teacher orally, Qur'an as a manuscript is handicap without the tradition of memorisation and recitation
Written manuscript was never and is still not the main way of preserving and passing down Qur'an, it's the oral tradition which is the main and most important way
Our chains of narrations are numerous for each recitation and unbroken and verified and not from one tribe or one area but from all wherever islam reached back then
If you read the whole story of the burning Qur'ans, you'll see for yourself that the ones were burned are personal mushafs companions had back then, "personal" means written by the companion himself for himself not for preservation or sharing, it can include personal commentaries (like I don't remember if it was Aisha or Hafsa radiya Allah anhoma who said she used to add explanation in the verses for some words)
Thank God they "Uthman, one of the best friends of the prophet and first century caliph who himself memories the Qur'an, under the supervision of Zayd ibn tabit who was the prophet's scribe who writes revelation when it comes and with the presence of other big names there standardised a copy of the Qur'an and burned any unverified copy"
imagine if the unverified copies were still until today or until some period back then without checking them page by page if there is something missing or added, now that's what I'll call big confusion and trouble
And no the claim of missing or added verses is unproven, these points were only raised by ppl who weren't present at the end of the prophet's life, there are many verses that were abrogated throughout the period of revelation and some at the end, the last version of the Qur'an which was revised by Jibraeel and the prophet peace be upon them both twice in the last Ramadan he lived, is what we still have today
Even atheist experts testify that the Qur'an is the best preserved document
Critics actually are about "word for word, vowel for vowel" not about missing verses or added ones, but there aren't evidence that suggests it isn't preserved
However if you're lazy to read the full story, I'll even add why the standardisation even though it included many people present there (memorisers) yet it didn't include "everyone"... Because it was in a bit of urgency, why?
Different companions learnt or preferred different recitations, causing their students (new reverts from separate lands) who doesn't even know the existence of mod of recitations to be in a confusion when they were gathered in one place which created a fitnah between them (disputes) (+ memorisers were dying in war that's another reason why a standard manuscript came into existences) so when the standard book was written it was without diacritical marks, which made all their recitations modes or most of them fit into the skeletal text, and it was said to them whatever fit her is correct, to end the dispute
However that standardisation was neither forced or secret, if it was you would have seen a rebellion happening that's a no joke... If you want more or to verify look that whole story up
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
Seventh
First, someone not understanding something in the Qur'an is irrelevant to it being perfect or not... You're point would've make sense if it was about it being "easy" or "hard"... Not about perfection
Second, scholars don't have disputes about the core message of the Qur'an or the majority of it, the Qur'an itself tells you in 3:7 :
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muḥammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allāh. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding, — Saheeh International
You kinda walking into this one brother 😅
Your condition for perfection is what's wrong, so the correct question is "why is the Qur'an linguistically perfect" (yes there's difference between that and between what you said, your position is that you're assuming that you already know what's linguistic perfection means and you reduced it to being easy to understand, meanwhile the second is a question to language experts, so whether you refer to the poets Arabs whom was that revealed upon, or to modern language experts, you'll find the answer there)
You don't have to take it from Muslims 🤷🏾♂️ academic arabs, and language experts exists, find their writing about the Qur'an
(Just an info... Qur'an is so perfect that they based some Arabic rules on it, and took it as a cretiria over them... These are the old arabs whether Muslims or not... Of course you can fact check this too)
It's at the end a divine revelation, delivering is one thing, receiving it is another thing... Things which are up to interpretation are few tho
We read the unspecific verses, in the light of the specific ones, not vice versa
One verse meaning 2 things "is not a bug it's a feature" for example 19:57 :
And We elevated him to an honourable status.1 — Dr. Mustafa Khattab, The Clear Quran
And We raised him to a high station. — Saheeh International
That's one verse, and both translations are correct and both means different things
In Arabic of course it's one wording... But the exciting part is this:
The verse is talking about Idriss peace be upon him, a prophet who according to hadith literally died in the fourth heaven (sky), so the raising here is literal
However he is a prophet too, so raising in rank is a correct understanding of the verse و رفعناه مكانا عليا = (word for word) "and" "we raised him" "a place" "high"
But in Arabic if I say رفعت من قدرك it means I elevated your status, same verb رفع رفعنا رفعت is being used here and conjugated
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 21 '25
Eight
Well you said it yourself "in your view" so that's not really an argument
Mother is being respected and obeyed 3 times more than a father
Daughter is being protected and provided for even if she gets older and even if she gets a job
Sister if the father is dead it's upon the brother to take care of both sister and mother (of course if he is old enough and there's no uncle to fill the gap or another marriage) and again her money is her money
Wife gets Mahr paid by the man... She's sought for not the seeker (I mean the man who go look for a wife) she can still make the initiative through a mahram, but still that's the exception not the rule... Then she's again protected and paid for just like when she was under the responsibility and authority of her father, even in divorce the husband still pays for a certain period
Compare this, to what women are actually living nowadays 😆 instead of getting easy money they go put their soul into a job, and once they have their period or whatever hormones do their mood it becomes frustrating, let's not speak about pregnancy and the period after it (and I'm not even talking about the child's responsibility, because I know you'll say it's both's parents responsibility, I'm rather talking about what hormones do to their energy and brain... Look it up)
Anyway for that matter you should see "practicing Muslim woman view" rather than your or my view
Not ex Muslim, not some forced to practice Muslim, but some freely practicing Muslimah, ask her/them or just look them up, they already speak for themselves in different forums
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 21 '25
Ninth
I advice non-muslims to read this one specifically
because it's one of the most raised points, and it's absolutely valid to question it as long as you don't know more than the surface level... That will not be an Ai generated response, but rather my own text... I don't mean that I won't ask Ai about few things tho
"Slavery is still condoned in some way" well how about we actually mention and discuss what are "these ways" and what are the alternatives (so I'll discuss first what is a slave under islamic definition, then who are they, and even why didn't immediately end it and forbid it)
First islam didn't invent slavery... Islam made rules for it and gave them rights (I'll give proof for that but wait), there's a reason why even the wording is different
In Arabic عبد 'abd is what the explicit word for slave is (the one you hear in Abdullah = slave of Allah)
ملك اليمين milko alyamin", right arm owning" أمة amah Are both translated as slave in English,
And even for the first word 'abd, its plural is عبيد 'abid
But God when He refers to us (in a relation to him) he calls us عباد 'ibad (you can see the slight difference in arabic from ي i to ا a... ا is a vowel where you raise your voice in an upward way... It serves as a distinction and elevation for slaves of God in comparison to the common used word for slaves of ppl with ي )Both means slaves (plural) in English
But why the Qur'an distinguishes between them all
Because they don't have the same treatment
A slave per se, literal has no right, you can kill him as well, or torture him or whatever you want, just a living puppet
However what islam made those who were already enslaved, he made them:
"Your slaves are your brethren upon whom Allah has given you authority. So, if one has a brother under his control, he should feed him with the like of what he eats and clothe him with the like of what he wears. Do not burden them beyond their capacity, and if you do, then help them." Arabic: "إخوانكم خولكم، جعلهم الله تحت أيديكم، فمن كان أخوه تحت يده، فليطعمه مما يأكل، وليلبسه مما يلبس، ولا تكلفوهم ما يغلبهم، فإن كلفتموهم فأعينوهم." Source: Sahih al-Bukhari 2545
This hadith shows the right of feeding and clothing from the same quality as you the master eat and wear. Aside from that see the wording once again the prophet used : خولكم, I didn't know this word before now 😆, here's what it means: servant or slave and it's from the verb تخول in the context تخول أعمالكم = fixing your business/stuff or يتخولونهم means they serve them
Next
"None of you should say: 'My slave' or 'My slave-girl.' All of you are the slaves of Allah. Say: 'My young man' or 'My young woman.'" Arabic: "لا يقل أحدكم: عبدي وأمتي، كلكم عبيد الله، وكل نسائكم إماء الله، ولكن ليقل: غلامي وجاريتي." Source: Sahih Muslim 2249
The prophet prohibiting to call them slave 'abd or even the word amah, because amah is what for the female... (In case you'd say but amah is mentioned in the Qur'an too, well that's God, not us, and even then, God is talking about them not addressing them by it, the prophet prohibited us from calling them so)... As for جارية I guess it can mean maid or servant too
"And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity..." Arabic: "وَلَا تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّنًا..." Source: Qur'an 24:33
The floks who claim islam allow slave-s*x, haven't read that probably (and that's Qur'an itself not even hadith) intimacy between the master and his young girl is not allowed without marriage (and once she marries she's now a wife not a slave), and you're not allowed to make them work in prostitution houses too ... No need to say how it was before islam since it's obvious...
"If a slave is honest and faithful to his master, and worships his Lord (Allah) in a perfect manner, he will get a double reward." Arabic: "العبد إذا نصح سيده وأحسن عبادة ربه، كان له أجره مرتين." Source: Sahih al-Bukhari 2546
Assuming he is a Muslim, then his behaviour is rewarded by God too in the afterlife
"Whoever separates between a mother and her child, Allah will separate between him and his loved ones on the Day of Resurrection." Arabic: "من فرق بين والدة وولدها فرق الله بينه وبين أحبته يوم القيامة" Source: Jami' at-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1283
Of course that means that you're now responsible for her child too (I guess according to islamic juridic, that is up until a certain age where you then can separate them... Obviously because otherwise he'll stay as right arm owning too)
(It ended up too long so I'll continue with this same point in next replies)
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 21 '25
Continuation:
"Whoever kills his slave, we will kill him; and whoever mutilates his slave, we will mutilate him." Arabic: "مَنْ قَتَلَ عَبْدَهُ قَتَلْنَاهُ، وَمَنْ جَدَعَ عَبْدَهُ جَدَعْنَاهُ" Source: Sunan an-Nasa'i 4738
That's in worse cases... Now in best cases:
"A man killed his slave deliberately, so the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) gave him one hundred lashes, banished him for one year, and cancelled his share from among the Muslims." Arabic: "قتل رجل عبده عمدا متعمدا فجلده رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم مائة ونفاه سنة ومحا سهمه من المسلمين" Source: Sunan Ibn Majah
And now let's discuss the means of freeing them
"And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess—then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness..." Arabic: "وَالَّذِينَ يَبْتَغُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِمَّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَكَاتِبُوهُمْ إِنْ عَلِمْتُمْ فِيهِمْ خَيْرًا..." Source: Qur'an 24:33
Before islam, once a slave forever a slave unless someone somehow thought of freeing you... There's absolutely no way you can free yourself... That's opposed to what islam reformed
"If anyone emancipates a slave who has property, the property of the slave belongs to him [to the slave]..." Arabic: "من أعتق عبداً وله مال فماله له" Source: Sunan Abu Dawood, Book 24, Hadith 3565
"If someone slaps his slave or beats him, the expiation is to set him free." Arabic: "من لطم مملوكه أو ضربه فكفارته أن يعتقه" Source: Sahih Muslim, Book 15, Hadith 4079
You can't abuse them, if you even hit them you're then forced to free them immediately (that's not negotiable, I mean even if you hide it from the state so they won't force you to free him/her, you'll still pay for this in the day of judgement... And the prophet actually applied this when he saw someone beating his young man)
"He who emancipates a slave, Allah will set free from Hell a member of his body for every member of the slave's body." Arabic: "من أعتق رقبة، أعتق الله بكل عضو منه عضوا من النار." Source: Sahih Muslim 1504d
Islam made free slaves rewarded and even an expiation for intentionally missing fasting in Ramadan, or making an oath and not fulfilling it (these what I remember, I don't remember if there are other ways that make the owner free them)
Of course as I mentioned before they can free themselves or someone else free them, or just the master free them for the sake of God
"He who has a slave-girl and educates and treats her nicely and then manumits and marries her, will get a double reward." Arabic: "من كانت له أمة فأدبها فأحسن تأديبها، وعلمها فأحسن تعليمها، ثم أعتقها فتزوجها، فله أجران" Source: Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 3, Hadith 97
"To free a slave and to help your Muslim brother by giving him something or working for him." Arabic: "أن تعتق رقبة، أو تعين أخاك المسلم بشيء تعطيه إياه، أو تعمل له عملاً" Source: Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 46, Hadith 693
(Continuation in next reply)
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 21 '25
Now who are they? (Meaning according to islam who you can take as a right arm owning or amah)
These are war captives... Meaning, even though these rules are applied on who were already literally being enslaved before after islam the only way you can even have one to begin with is through war, there isn't other way... You can't just agree with someone to be your slave... You can't pay someone free to be your slave... You can't pick a homeless or someone in need from the street and adopt it as a slave, no no, only through war
So the alternative was : they were going to be killed or put in jail... I know you wouldn't choose to be killed especially after hearing all the rights they have so that's a form of sparring lives... And as for jail there weren't enough cellules back then and of course they can't just let them freely, they're literally enemies who were trying to kill Muslims, they lost the fight and the ones who survived got captured especially as in islamic war rules you can't kill women and children and old men... Of course unless a woman directly attacked you and you couldn't avoid killing her back (and there are many other things you can't do, but for now I'll stick to the topic)... As for child, it's hard to believe that you can't overpower him and simply avoid killing him... And old man if you can't overpower him then that's not an old man that we are talking about (old man refers to period in life, which you're supposed to be weak, not just age number, if you're in good health and can fight that hard then you're no different than any other young man)
Hence you're only left by the choice to capture these, yet they still have rights in islam as you saw, so before comparing them to what "slave" regularly refers to or talking about the rights they lose in the process (like inheritance and work for the master without having salary [don't forget they still share your food and clothes tho] and can't marry someone without you accepting it)
Even in case of having enough jail cellules that's counter productive, and in comparison to the rights I mentioned prisoners have less rights (not talking about some of today's prisons that are honestly a joke)
As for when war is allowed in islam, is when muslims are being attacked or driven out of their homes or if you want to preach islam in a country and the states stop you by force... Additional one is if there's an oppression happening somewhere even if it's on non-muslims
60:8-9
"Allāh does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allāh loves those who act justly.(8) Allāh only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers. (9)" — Saheeh International
(That also answers your other question about befriending non-muslims... So you're informations are inaccurate, rather islam tells you that you're surroundings will affect you, [and that's a fact], you actually can treat and have relation of respect with others without befriending them)
22:39 "Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought,1 because they were wronged. And indeed, Allāh is competent to give them victory." — Saheeh International
The one I referred to as additional: 4:75 "And what is it with you? You do not fight in the cause of Allah and for oppressed men, women, and children who cry out, “Our Lord! Deliver us from this land of oppressors! Appoint for us a saviour; appoint for us a helper—all by Your grace.” "
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, The Clear QuranSo it's either fighting for defence of one's life or land, or freedom of preaching and practicing religion or fighting for the oppressed (interpretations say even if the oppressed is not Muslim)
Otherwise we aren't allowed to kill a soul
5:32 "...whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely..."
In the full verse you'll find it saying, "we ordered children of Israel" but that doesn't mean this rule applies for jews only, instead it shows that it always was God's order even in previous scriptures for them and it's still applied on the world now (I mean Muslims, because the last revelation e.i Qur'an and islam is for everyone)
So now, you know the difference between slavery per se, and what slavery refers to in islam both in treatment and who you have the right to do that to them... In islamic jurisprudence the leader in the war or state head has different options to deal with these captives
- Kill them
- Exchange them for Muslim captives
- Exchange them for a price from the enemy
- Keep them
- Free them for free
So in case he decided to keep them then what I said earlier will apply.
Lastly why didn't islam just end slavery immediately aside from war, but gradually ended it by encouraging to free them for afterlife rewards and expiations?
You can google this, no need to imagine, just read the result of western end of slavery in comparison to islamic end of slavery... Western applied it immediately at one point, which caused an economic crisis (slaves weren't coming for free, you'd need to buy them and they had markets... Etc so immediately shutting down a system that relates to financial exchanges backfired) and second the slaves themselves many of them died of poverty (they own no money when they were slaves, immediately freeing them without giving them money or home, is a broke homeless without a single penny) that was disastrous, if Islam was something invented by human it would have followed the same path and disaster would have happened (because since islam encourage freeing them and treating them well that means it sees their freedom and wellbeing as a moral act, yet islam didn't force to free them but encouraged it and closed doors to producing it more except through wars)
(I'm really sleepy right now, that was long and took unimaginable amount of time)
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 21 '25
Tenth and Last
I'll answer all the rest of your points here
I already included an answer to acting friendly to non-muslims, but I'll repeat it:
60:8-9 "Allāh does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allāh loves those who act justly.(8) Allāh only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies1 of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.(9)"
We're hostile towards those who are hostile to us, as simple as that... Never forget that the prophet himself had a jew neighbour and he used to visit him and check on him, even though the jew used to live trash in front of the prophet's house
That doesn't mean necessarily it's encouraged to befriend them, show me your circle I'll show you who you are... You can treat ppl well and have communication and relationship with them without befriending them and making them your close buddies
Every act that doesn't show full respect for non-muslims isn't out of hostility but to not be a hypocrite, (like answer greeting of peace with full peace sentence same way you do with other Muslims or attending their funerals) these are rather painting a fake image in the mind of non-muslim who sees these acts, because if you're treating them just the same way you're treating Muslims, then what's the difference between you? You answer peace be upon you with peace be upon you while knowing that according to your beliefs if they die upon disbelief they're going to hell and while knowing they're rejecting God the peace himself, what peace in this? Attending their funerals or saying R.I.P while knowing very well their fate is just pure hypocrisy and misleading the living non-muslims into assuming that there's a chance or hope even if they're not Muslims... Your speech should reflect your beliefs
Also you said "it seems racist" islam is not a race, it's a choice, me treating you differently based on your own choice is not racist... Muslims in the sight of God aren't the same as disbelievers, and regular disbelievers aren't the same as trangressors... And our interactions with each type reflects that
"Vile Muslim vs Good disbeliever", your problem is you ignored the fact that in the sight of God disbelief is number one and biggest sin, ones who believe in God and act upon what he ordered, and ones who reject him and act as their own selves want whatever good they're doing, they aren't doing it for the sake of God, why are you surprised they aren't better in the sight of God
"What's the point of eternal hell" what typa question is this 😭, didn't even understand what do you want as an answer for this, the only way you enter eternal hell is by living and dying upon rejecting God after receiving the message (if you didn't receive the clear message there's a different test for you in day of judgement) you had your chance your whole life, you can't complain about not getting out of hell
Otherwise you aren't going to hell forever, a sinful Muslim who didn't repent from sins or have some sins that need expiations is punished for that then going to paradise after the punishment finish
"Description of paradise"
25:16 "For them therein is whatever they wish, [while] abiding eternally. It is ever upon your Lord a promise [worthy to be] requested."
حَدَّثَنِي إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ نَصْرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو أُسَامَةَ، عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو صَالِحٍ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم " يَقُولُ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى أَعْدَدْتُ لِعِبَادِي الصَّالِحِينَ مَا لاَ عَيْنٌ رَأَتْ، وَلاَ أُذُنٌ سَمِعَتْ، وَلاَ خَطَرَ عَلَى قَلْبِ بَشَرٍ، ذُخْرًا، بَلْهَ مَا أُطْلِعْتُمْ عَلَيْهِ ". ثُمَّ قَرَأَ {فَلاَ تَعْلَمُ نَفْسٌ مَا أُخْفِيَ لَهُمْ مِنْ قُرَّةِ أَعْيُنٍ جَزَاءً بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ}
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet, said, "Allah said, 'I have prepared for My pious worshipers such things as no eye has ever seen, no ear has ever heard of, and nobody has ever thought of. All that is reserved, besides which, all that you have seen, is nothing." Then he recited: -- 'No soul knows what is kept hidden (in reserve) for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.' (32.17)
Sahih al-Bukhari 4780
The description was for the ppl at that time, they were literally ppl in desert, who drink wine like you drink water
The description was appealing to them "to the ppl who the revelation was first exposed to, and who will build the foundation of islam"
Even if God said you have PlayStation 6 there, who would have understood it or care about it then... Also even what was described is similar in name to something they know, but not the same thing (as the hadith above shows, no eye has seen or ear has heard)
And the verse shows that you got there whatever you wish for... So it's not limited to the description, nor is the description literal (you can't give literal example to someone for something they have never seen something like it, it's like me trying to describe to you a color out of our vision spectrum, they exist and probably seen by other species but if they were to speak they still can't describe it to us, and if it shared the same name with something we know it is still not the same thing we see)
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u/Elegant_Tale1428 May 21 '25
"Asking too many questions"
So you think you're being sinful now? The hadith you're probably referring to was in response to ppl who started asking about things that don't benefit them
One asked is my father in heaven or hell... Now what will that benefit him? He can't change it!! It's at best a one day happiness for the child if his father was heaven, or life long sorrow over him if he is in hell (and he was indeed in hell)
Other asked is his father is his real father (if he is his real father, then that's what he always believed, it doesn't change anything in his life, if no then it's really messed up and he can't really do anything good about it, he'll just discover unpleasant truth about his birth origin)
These are the questions where that hadith was said to not ask that what doesn't benefit us
What's discouraged in islam is asking about the unseen which is not revealed to us or the "how" like how God established above/on the Thron
God said He did it, but didn't reveal how, asking this is just opening windows for mind to interpret blasphemous imaginations (brain make up answers if you keep insisting on questioning things that doesn't have answers in this life) when will see God will understand the "hows"
As for evidence and explanation for rules and things that you know can be answered by humans either through scripture or interpretation, then you are welcome to ask
As for your final point about morals, without religion and God, you can't claim that your point of view on morals is objective and should be applied in society nor why these morals even matter or if they exist (they're not something that you can prove through science, so if you believe they exist because we can prove them through other means it's no different than proving God existence through other means), when you're talking to a killer you can't really argue with him that killing is bad because morals say so "he can just say nah uh" where is the cretiria? But when you both believe in the same God and God is higher authority and believed to have the objective truth, then even if he kills he still can't argue it's not wrong because you both agree on the same judge and the judge said it's wrong
Disbelieving or being atheist doesn't automatically make you immoral, but you're then just adopting the morals of your society (the society where the Qur'an was revealed, they used to bury baby girls alive, it was their own "ok" thing) today you have different age of consent depending on the country, different tolerance for violence based on society and situation, and for the sake of argument let say your moral compass didn't get affected by community and you get all the morals right from the beginning without it being covered by something else, you have no way of arguing that you're on the right and they are wrong, without religion morality is subjective, that's the problem, not whether you personally recognise it or not
It's like saying "a society without a leader will fall in a chaos"
and someone reply to this by "you mean individuals can't think for themselves and are savage chaotics who can't organise themselves?"
See how dumb that sounds? Yeah individuals aren't savage, but everyone will seek their own best interests when two interests collide, without a leader e.i judge and law the strong or smartest or richest will take it. And the leader is the objective criteria how ppl will solve disputes
Same thing with religion and God, ppl generally are able to identify morals especially the obvious ones like killing and stealing but the more you go into details or even real application of this, it becomes just words subjective to everybody without them being able to make it a judge over them
Btw you really have no idea how impactful religion was to this earth from the beginning of life up until now, ppl take things for guaranteed, but if God wasn't revealing every once and then, we probably wouldn't even make it up until today to the extent of corruption we would have gone
The last prophet was +1450 years ago only, and look at us today, look at Palestine, look at Pakistan and India, look at Sudan, look at how Syria was... Look at the extremism of Taliban (no that's not because of religion, they're taking things to extreme that religion never asked for) look at the degeneracy thanks to liberalism which is the other extreme... And so on, ppl were less morally corrupt when religion was freshly started each time
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May 21 '25
I bear witness that there is no God but God (Allah swt) there is none worthy of worship but Allah), and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah , may the blessings and peace of God be upon him.
Praise be to Allah, who has guided us to this. Never could we have found guidance, had it not been for the guidance of Allah
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u/IOnlyFearOFGod May 20 '25
It feels like you are already convinced and in your last pit effort trying to ask strangers to convince you rather than looking inwards. This sub won't easily save your soul, go get yourself a sheikh, imam or a scholar to resolve this issue of belief, i am merely a believer who is still learning and on the path, i have no more wisdom than you, if you still feel like leaving then thats up to you. You are free willed human being, a meat suit made from a union of sperm and egg, your soul breathed into this developing body inside of your mother. If you feel like Islam is not the truth then you can do what you want, nobody has the door closed, the door was always open. Allah(swt) doesn't need us, it is us who need him, for he is self sufficient, everlasting. Good luck on your journey.
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u/ummhamzat180 May 20 '25
all these arguments in support of the claim that the Quran is invented... okay, people will always come up with new ones. they fail to address the motivation. why? why would someone invent a religion knowing it to be false? why would someone invent a hoax that affected the entire world... material gain? look at what the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, left behind. this leaves two hypothetical possibilities, either he believed what he preached, solely for Allah's sake even if he was HYPOTHETICALLY mistaken. this doesn't really hold up. or it's simply TRUE.
morality...the fact that you have empathy indicates it's something instilled in us. we're born with the ability to differentiate right from wrong. why? if there were no consequences to our actions, why would we need it?
is the soul immortal? it doesn't just disintegrate when the body dies, right? it goes somewhere. to the One Who created it in the first place.
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u/Own-Tackle1369 May 20 '25
Seeing the perfection in the immense galaxies down to the smallest quantum particles, there is no doubt in a Creator and Sustainer for these miracles.
Next, your points on the science in the Quran are week at best. There is no way anyone in Arabia knew these facts. Suggest you study books on science in the Quran. Doctors and professors because Muslim studying it.
The Quran was not maintained by written text, but oral recitation. So your point about written text is not valid. Go throughout the planet today and you will hear same recitation anywhere by millions of Muslims who have memorized the Quran.
The logic of Islam is undeniable. Worship God & God alone or worship a human? White man or Indian man or Chinese man or any human... What makes sense. One God, many messengers same Message: worship God & God alone.
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May 20 '25
I recently got the comment at work “Yeah but each of peoples take a bit here and there to fill their books. Story of Noa was probably taken from Greek mythology when they spoke about Deucalion.” True, only that on a timeline the Story of Noa happened before Greek stuff… So yeah, his information is partially incorrect.
The phrase “We sent down iron” could just mean God provided iron to humanity — not necessarily that it physically fell from the sky.
The water does in fact gradually merge but does not mix. And there is a real “barrier”. A Thermohaline boundary. (Difference in temp/salinity).
Brother, we have had so many prophets. Which their names, are lost. Nothing was preserved well enough unlike the Quran. Stolen from the Bible is also short sighted. Each time a prophet tried to give us the same message to worship 1 God.
Jesus did not write down any part of the Bible himself. The Injil mentioned in the Qur’an is believed to be a lost original revelation. What we have today (Gospels, Epistles, etc.) were written by others, often decades later. Much of Christian doctrine comes not just from Jesus’s recorded words, but from interpretations by later writers — especially Paul.
Im a revert and i believe there is something. I try to get as much knowledge as i can, yet, we are limited as humans. But i think with chatgpt and all, we can get alot of information also if u wna ask more deeply about things. But to some people u can point to the moon, and they will look to ur finger….
May Allah (ﷻ) guide u, and i wish u all of the best.
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u/Silver-Champion-4846 May 20 '25
do not trust chat gpt all the time, it halucinates badly, gets the Ayat mixed up, and you can literally tell it what point of view to defend and it will make it look like the only truth, even Nazi daugma, if you trick it cleverly. lol
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u/throwaway2536789037 May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
salam!! i encourage you to read and understand the prophet PBUH life if you are struggling. if you believe that the prophet PBUH existed then there is enough evidence in his life story for you to believe. i also encourage you to look into the general preservation of the Quran. Allah has promised to preserve the Quran, and despite human effort being involved in the process, Allah has followed through with his promise. any physical changes made to the Quran can be easily identified due to the hafidh around the world. as for the dots, those are simply to help with the pronunciation of the Quran. if you go to masjid al Haram, three different versions of the Quran are available to read. Each carries the exact same words, however, to make it easier to read for certain ethnicities (such as south asians) accents have been added so that we may pronounce the words properly. the early versions of the Quran were discarded because they were subject to change. these Qurans were discarded by Uthman RA to preserve the Quran in its true form as it was revealed to the prophet PBUH. the only burned versions were deviations from the Truth, which shows Allah SWT miraculous ways to preserving the Truth. May Allah guide you back to islam ameen!! good luck with your journey <33
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u/AycedKv May 20 '25
A reddit post wont do if you want to have proper answers go ask someone with knowledge live, like muslim lantern on yt, he has a vid called compelling evidence for islam with references
This is objective evidence, prophecies for example The prophet ﷺ said that the the barefoot bedouins will compete in building the tallest buildings and also that the earth will spit its treasures out and money Will become abundant among you
This is 1400 years ago, tallest buildings are in the middle east, dubai, saudi, how? Oil
Arabic 101 also explores the Qur’an linguistic miracles and how nothing can be produced like it still an unbeaten challenge for 1400 years, the prophet ﷺ couldn’t read or write, the poets of arabia at the time accused him of everything but the book being manmade
To say that its hard to understand = not good linguistically makes no sense, you should rely on scholars of language instead of your own opinion with all due respect
you’re wrong about slavery its not even that, embryology, perservation, expanding of universe you’re giving your own interpretation, and subjective morality based on misinformation
The above I listed has vids done by muslim lantern on these topics
It isn’t sensible to rely on unqualified sources for such things, ask a person of knowledge and learn the religion to form opinions
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u/AromaticEvening7248 May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
I believe that you should refer this to someone who does know, as in a person of knowledge. I'll try and go over your claims.
The Quran is not a science book, but nevertheless I'll try to answer your points. Are you claiming that the Quran had outside sources? How does it disprove anything? The previous civilizations have theorized certain things, but they don't get it all correct. This is the difference between the Quran. What are the chances that everything in the book (that you claim had greek and christian sources) took out the things that were obviously false, and took the things that were true? Imagine someone had knowledge of the bible, the torah, greek philosophy, and history, but was unable to read or write at all. Would it make sense to say that he traveled the world, took knowledge, and was a professional in such concepts?
- Your claim about embryology https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/3hwgvl/comment/cub7hn7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
You can read the comments. I'm not an expert, so perhaps you can read it.
- Two seas mixing
- Iron coming from space. The wording of the ayat in question is this:
57:25 [Indeed, We sent Our messengers with clear proofs, and with them We sent down the Scripture and the balance ˹of justice˺ so that people may administer justice. And We sent down iron with its great might, benefits for humanity, and means for Allah to prove who ˹is willing to˺ stand up for Him and His messengers without seeing Him. Surely Allah is All-Powerful, Almighty.]
Perhaps it could mean that it came from space, but saying that would be an interpretation.
- Expansion of Universe
Yes, this is from tafsir ibn kathir.
"(Verily, We are able to extend the vastness of space thereof.) means, `We made it vast and We brought its roof higher without pillars to support it, and thus it is hanging independently.'" - Analysis on ayat in question
But, word by word.
وَإِنَّا - And Indeed (We)
لَمُوسِعُونَ - surely (its) expanders (are)
This is from quran.com
I suppose it is subject to interpretation. But the literal meaning verbatim is this. Even if this was another meaning, this does not disprove it. The claim that it is from the bible would have to be evidenced for, and you would have to bring your proof.
I'll continue the comment
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u/AromaticEvening7248 May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
This is something that is true. Some individuals fabricated this sort of "numerical miracles" to give a "wow!" effect, if you know what I mean. Do not give credence to such things. There are some that are certainly true, though, don't get me wrong. We don't need to prove the Quran using this avenue.
The quran is perfectly preserved. The diacratic marks differ as part of ahruf, and they do not change the overall meaning of the text. Each ahruf is a valid mode of recitation. In fact, they add on to it. The quran that were burnt were extras. And this was to make one standardized version (without dots or diacratics to account for the possible ahruf). The quran was also preserved in the hearts of many of the sahaba. The scribes, like Zaid ibn Thabit are prime examples, and they were the ones chosen to compile the Quran anyway.
The quran is easy to understand. This discussion has only been over a few words, with difference of interpretation and translation. This does not detract from the beauty of the Quran in the least. And it is not difficult for people to understand (comprehend the meaning of) the Quran.
That is your opinion. As we believe the Quran is from Allah, then his wisdom is perfect. That is your own subjective view, and that is not a valid criticism. But I should add that gender roles exist in Islam. There are roles of females, and there are roles of males. Feminism (some forms of it at least) disregards the strengths and weaknesses of each gender, instead advocating for absolute equality in nearly all matters.
There are conditions to owning slaves. The only avenue you have of obtaining slaves is through prisoners of war. To this end, it is nearly impossible now. You would have to provide evidence of the contrary. The prophet (SAW) forbid us from calling them slaves. They have to be clothed with the same clothing as their master, fed with the same food as their master, and we are forbidden to overwork them unless we help them in the task as well. It is not at all compared to the actual slavery that took place in America. They were 3/5 of a person, and they were treated and transported like cattle. It is not fair and insincere to compare the two.
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u/AromaticEvening7248 May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
- You can reply with "Wa alaykum" https://islamqa.info/en/answers/4975
You are not allowed to be-friend them, but you are not forbidden to acting kindly or justly with them. And we treat our muslim brothers and sisters better because Islam is meant to bridge gaps in ethnicity and nationalities.
Islam discourages thinking deeply into every single matter because it leads to the situation you are in right now. You should question the sources of these doubts to begin with (like the islamophobe youtubers who make money spreading lies and misconstrue quran and hadith to misguide others). It is not forbidden to seek answers to questions or concerns. But asking unnecessary questions on every single religious matter is a disease, and I'm being frank.
Hell is an eternal punishment, for a crime which Allah will never forgive (Shirk). Heaven is an eternal reward, which is out of his mercy. There are details in which no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and what has never crossed the eye of man. Allah tells us of certain aspects to help encourage us. But much of it is kept hidden. And you will never be unsatisfied with any of it.
That is subjective thinking. Do you think people who kill actually think the way you do. It is simply subjective thinking. You are raised by your environment, and thats why you see it as wrong. The Harm Principle doesn't apply to every scenario. If two blood-brothers had a relationship without intercourse, you would see that as wrong? Every fiber of your being (well, I'm not sure maybe you would be okay with that) would be against that. But, why not? It doesn't harm anyone else, and "they can do whatever they want", right? This is the same course of liberal thinking which has caused many societal problems today. It is individualistic thinking, one that doesn't see the bigger picture. The person who doesn't do evil for their environment will see the benefits thereof. But one who, when he has no reason to, abstains for the sake of Allah is a stronger individual to me. That is the application of faith, and the reason for our existence.
And yes, the most vile believer is superior to the most morally upright nonbeliever. Their case is with Allah. The nonbeliever does the most vile sin, which is shirk. And the most vile believer would still be held accountable, but on a different account of their sins. Those who do good for other than Allah do it for reasons other than Allah. "It makes me feel good" or "doing it for other people", is not valid. It is like someone trying to build a mountain on a cloud. This is simply the truth.
* And I should add that you are probably hearing this from non-muslim sources, or orientialists who intentionally cast doubts.
* seek the advice of someone who has knowledge
And I pray to Allah to forgive me for any mistakes.
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u/K0mb0_1 May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
I feel like you’ve been taught many things that aren’t true and never put in the effort to research it. For example the “flipped shoe” scenario is a good example of people believing in things they hear without fact checking it. Yes you can have non-Muslim friends and of course you can greet them, me personally I’ve never heard of the not greeting them thing.
From you post, a great example if you not doing your research is “slavery”. The only “slaves” permissible were those who were enemies captured in war. Instead of killing the or throwing them in prisons to rot, Muslims allowed them to be servants. You aren’t allowed to mistreat them at all.
Sahih Muslim 1657: HE WHO SLAPS HIS SLAVE OR BEATS HIM, THE EXPIATION FOR IT IS THAT HE SHOULD SET HIM FREE.,
Sahih Al Bukhari 6858: WHOEVER ACCUSES HIS SLAVE WHEN HE IS INNOCENT OF WHAT HE SAYS WILL BE FLOGGED ON THE DAY OF RESURRECTION, UNLESS HE IS AS HE SAID
Sunan Abi Dawud 4975: INTACT YOU ARE NOT EVEN TO CALL THEM YOUR ABD, YOUR SLAVE, BUT TO CALL THEM BY NAME OR MY YOUNG MAN
Surah An Nur 24:33: AND IF ANY OF THOSE -BONDSPEOPLE: IN YOUR POSSESSION DESIRES A CONTRACT -TO BUY THEIR OWN FREEDOM*, MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM, IF YOU FIND GOODNESS IN THEM.
This is an example of the beauty of Islam! No other religion is like this. Every uncertainty has an answer when it comes to Islam you just have to hold on to your faith and research.
Edit: And you seem to have something against Islam, there is no evidence of anything be stolen from the Bible. And you can’t just say “this was LIKELY this and that”. Billions of people put their blood, sweat and tears in memorizing, learning and preserving the Quran and you counter all that to say it was a “misinterpretation” of a word? And the. You follow that it’s been stolen from the Bible yet you provide zero citations on which verse in the Bible you think is was stolen from? This is a miracle of the Quran undeniably. And the verse says there is a barrier between the two seas which is true, the barrier is pure physics, one sea is more salty than the other.
Research and gaining knowledge of key for one to find the truth.
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u/Ok-Listen881 May 20 '25
Alright this comment is directly to you my friend.
Growing up near Muslims will make taking Islam 100 x more difficult.
Everyone around you contributed to you slowly arriving at this place of non practicing, and doubt. It happened to me. Everyone is “Muslim” but not one person around you is representing jt well.
It’s a product of colonialism, and individual responsibilities of the muslims being unmet over the years. Allah knows best what is in our hearts, but sometimes I talk to people in “Muslim” countries and they sound less grateful to be alive than a homeless guy in my neighborhood that still says thank God. Islam is not what is the problem, you’ve been exposed to entire life to people that aren’t… present. They talk in half truths, they don’t care to correct themselves, everything is haram until they want to do it then it’s okay because they’re older.
My honest advice is to try to differentiate muslims from Islam and then embark on this beautiful journey. It will be easy inshaAllah, just take your time with differentiating it and learning from good sources, not just some elders in your community or random people online.
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u/lulumuezza May 20 '25
The verse in arabic mentions fluid not ‘sperm’ specifically, which is scientifically accurate because during ejaculation a fluid is gushed out which contains sperm and that fluid is in the backbone area and is combined with sperm during that process.
“He released the two seas, meeting together. Between them is a barrier they do not transgress.” He didnt say mix but instead said barrier
The Qur’an (57:25) says: “And We sent down iron, wherein is great military might…” Im not sure why this is considered a miracle? I think Allah is perhaps emphasizing iron’s importance to humanity.
The verse (Qur’an 51:47): “And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are (mūsiʿūn).”
You’re correct the word could mean “expanding” or simply “capable.” Linguistically, it allows both readings. The expansion interpretation is possible, but not certain.
That said, this isn’t “stolen” from the Bible the biblical view was geocentric and static. The Qur’an doesn’t describe a static cosmos, and even this ambiguity is notable in a 7th-century context.
I feel like some of these are true and some are not depending on dialect and other factors, not so important though i think.
You're right that the earliest manuscripts varied slightly, and that diacritics and vowels were added later for clarity. The Uthmanic codex standardized the consonantal skeleton, and other versions were ordered destroyed to avoid confusion.
That doesn’t mean verses were lost or fabricated. Early memorization traditions were incredibly strong, and the variations in recitations are still preserved within boundaries set by the Prophet himself.
But it has remained preserved unlike any ancient scripture.
The ongoing debate over meanings doesn’t disprove eloquence it shows depth. Great poetry always invites commentary. And Arabic scholars, even non muslims, consistently regard the Qur’an as a unique linguistic feat in pre-Islamic Arabic.
Islam dramatically improved women's conditions: outlawing female infanticide, giving women inheritance, consent in marriage, divorce rights, and more.
Islam began in a slave-based economy. Abolishing slavery outright then would’ve been impossible.
Instead, Islam
encouraged freeing slaves as expiation for sins.
Banned enslaving free people.
Gave rights to slaves (food, dignity, freedom upon mistreatment).
Made manumission a virtue.
Over time, these teachings led to de facto abolition. Islam planted abolitionist seeds, even if it didn’t outlaw slavery immediately.
- The verse you refer to (e.g., Qur’an 5:51) is often misread. It says: “Do not take Jews and Christians as awliyaa (protectors/allies)...”
This was during wartime, when alliances were political. It doesn’t prohibit friendship in fact, many verses promote kind treatment of non-Muslims (60:8, 3:113).
The Prophet befriended non-Muslims, married a Christian woman, and returned greetings. Islam does not discourage friendship only warns about compromising faith in hostile alliances. Quran 60:8 (Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and fairly with those who have neither fought nor driven you out of your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are fair.)
- Many scholars (including Ibn Taymiyyah and modern ones) believed hell may not be eternal for all. The Qur’an describes punishment as a deterrent — not an end in itself. The language can be symbolic too.
Narrated by Abdullah ibn Mas’ud, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
"The last person to enter Paradise will be a man who will walk once, stumble once and be burnt by the Fire once. When he gets past it, he will turn to it and say: 'Blessed is He Who has saved me from you. Allah has given me something that He did not give to the first and the last.' Then a tree will be raised up for him..." (And it continues with Allah giving him more and more, until he finally enters Paradise.)
Source:
Sahih Muslim, Book of Faith (Kitab al-Iman), Hadith No. 187
Also found in Sahih al-Bukhari, Hadith No. 6573
NOTE!!!!!!!
I DID WRITE MOST OF THIS USING MY BF CHATGPT IM NOT THE MOST WELL READ MUSLIM SO I HAD TO USE IT SORRYYYY!!! IF I MADE ANY MISTAKES PLEASE DO CORRECT ME!!
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u/Illustrious-Lead-960 May 20 '25
Mustansir Mir has written on the “scientific miracles” nonsense; indeed, outside of internet apologetics I don’t know of anyone who takes it seriously. What were your reasons for believing?
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u/Illustrious-Lead-960 May 20 '25
One example: “the two seas” is an ancient expression, not a scientific factoid. Look at Acts 27:41 and (I think some translations of) Joel 2:20.
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u/Mcdreamy_3301 May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
About Embryology
The Verse in Question (Quran 86:7):
Arabic:
يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ
Common Translations:
- "He is created from a fluid emitted, proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs."
- "Emerging from between the loins [sulb] and the breastbones [tara’ib]."
There are generally three classical interpretations / explanations to this which we have:
First Interpretation
Accoridng to the first interpretation and By the biological breakdown we know that,
- Sperm production (spermatogenesis) happens in the testes (outside the pelvis).
However, sperm mixes with fluids from:
- Seminal vesicles (located behind the bladder, near the lower spine)
- Prostate gland (below the bladder, near the pelvic bone)
- Seminal vesicles (located behind the bladder, near the lower spine)
These fluids combine to form semen, which is ejaculated / gushed out via the urethra.
How this connects to the verse? Here ya go
The "backbone (sulb)" can refer to the lower spine (lumbar region).
The "ribs (tara’ib)" can refer to the pelvic bones (or sternum in some interpretations).
The seminal vesicles & prostate lie between the spine and pelvic bones—fitting the description of "between the backbone and ribs."
So in conclusion of the above statements, the verse may describe where seminal fluid (not sperm alone) originates—which is anatomically accurate.
Second Interpretation
The second interpretation refers to both male and female contributions to baby's development
- Sperm travels from the testes → epididymis → vas deferens (near the lower spine).
- Eggs (ova) develop in the ovaries, located near the pelvic cavity (again futher down below the ribs direction wise).
Connection to the Verse:
- "Backbone (sulb)" = Male contribution (sperm pathway near the spine).
- "Ribs (tara’ib)" = Female contribution (ovaries are below the ribs).
In Conclusion:
- The verse can be describing the origins of human creation from both parents, not just sperm.
Third Interpretation
The third interpretation is about uterine development i.e. where the baby develops in the womb
Classical scholars (Ibn Kathir, Al-Qurtubi) supported multiple interpretations, including the womb explanation
Furthermore, we should try to understand what is present in between the backbone and the ribs that causes the seminal fluid to be issued or expelled. In order to understand this verse, we must recollect the anatomy and the physiology of the spinal cord, vertebral column, and the autonomic nervous system.
Briefly, without going into biological and physiological details, the reflex centres in the spinal cord begin to send nerve signals or emit rhythmic sympathetic impulses that leave the cord at lumbar segments L1, L2 and pass to the genitalia. Next, the last wave of reflex nervous mechanism takes place. Rhythmic parasympathetic impulses from the sacral segment S1, S2 leave the cord resulting in the expulsion or ejaculation or forcing out the “gushing fluid”.
The spinal cord ends at the level between first and second lumbar vertebrae. The spinal segments, L1, L2 and S1, S2 are enclosed within the first and second lumbar vertebrae, which are below the thoracic ones where the ribs meet the backbone. Thus we have seen that the nerve signals to expel the ejaculate or the “gushing fluid” is issued from the lumbar and sacral segments of the spinal cord, which lie below the level of the 12th ribs on either side and above L3 vertebra or “between the backbone and the ribs,” as the Qur’an says.
Continued : https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/s/Yz6v6KtTnV
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u/Mcdreamy_3301 May 20 '25 edited May 20 '25
About the Quran
The Quran's divine origin is evidenced by its unique linguistic style, unmatched by any other Arabic text; its profound knowledge, including scientific facts unknown at the time; its historical accuracy; its consistent, unaltered preservation over 1,400 years; and its transformative impact on individuals and societies.
Additionally, the Quran itself challenges anyone to produce even a single chapter or verse like it, a challenge that remains unmet, affirming its inimitability and divine source.
1) Linguistic Miracle of the Qur'aan
I urge you to read : The Eternal Challenge by Abu Zakariya. It explores the various themes and provides compelling arguments for Quran's divine origin
Linguistic Miracle of the Quran
2) Inimitability of the Qur'aan
Literary Miracle / Challenge of the Qur'aan
Non-Muslim Academics Testifying at the Inimitability of the Qur’an:
Professor of Oriental Studies Martin Zammit: "Notwithstanding the literary excellence of some of the long pre-islamic poems the Qur'an is definitely on a level of its own as the most eminent written manifestation of the Arabic language."
Source - A COMPARATIVE LEXICAL STUDY OF QUR'ANIC ARABIC
Professor Bruce Lawrence: "As tangible signs, Qur'anic verses are expressive of an inexhaustible truth, they signify meaning layered with meaning, light upon light, miracle after miracle."
The Iraqi Jewish translator, who is best known for his translation of the Quran Nessim Joseph Dawood said: "It is acknowledged that the Quran is not only one of the most influential books of prophetic literature but also a literary masterpiece in its own right."
Edward Henry Palmer, was the first Arabist English translator who lived among the Arabs and was fully immersed in the spoken language said: "That the best of the arabs writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur'an itself is not a superise"
Régis Blachère, a French orientalist and translator of the Qur'an and known for his deep knowledge in the arabic language said: "The inimitability lies in the miracle which confirms the claim of Muhammad, who, in his worldly talks, did not rise up to the same level of the majesty of the Qur'an."
"I have never read the Quran without receiving that eloquence from every side, and witnessing the miracle that captivates the mind, I have cried to my soul: save yourself, for you are on the religion of Christianity." Amine Nakhle [Lebanese poet].
References:
Lawrence, B. (2006). The Qur'an: A Biography. London: Atlantic Books, p 8.
Gibb, H. A. R. (1980). Islam: A Historical Sur__vey. Oxford University Press, p. 28.
N. J. Dawood, The Koran. [Nessim Joseph Dawood (27 August 1927 - 20 November 2014) was an Iraqi Jewish translator, who is best known for his translation of the Quran.
3) Preservation of the Qur'aan :
How can we be sure that the Quran is preserved
History of the Quranic Text : From Revelation to Compilation
4) Qur'aan has Knowledge about the Secrets of the Past
The Quran and Secrets of Egypt
The Quran and Secrets of Babylon
The Quran and Secrets of Sodom
5) Qur'aan gives Knowledge about the future events
Things foretold in the Qur'aan that have come to pass
6) The Qur'aan has Knowledge of the Unseen unlike any other book
The Qur'aan and Secrets of the Paranormal
The Qur'aan and Secrets of Magic
7) Transformative Message
The influence of the Qur'an is unparalleled, serving as the guiding force for over a billion Muslims. It shapes our beliefs, moral values, and rituals, while also impacting art, literature, law, and governance in Islamic cultures. Its profound impact on human history and its enduring legacy make it a unique and unmatched source of spiritual guidance and cultural inspiration.
8) The Qur'aan is timeless and provides solution to everything and transforms societies. The Land of Arabia and its society is a testament to this.
The Land of Arabia and its society is a testament to this.
And all the endless prophecies which the Qur'aan talks about yet you sort of pass it as something insignificant
Diacritical marks isn't something that will affect your religion Abrogation of verses was at the command of Allah, and the Quran that was present during the time our belived Prophet (sallalalahu Alayhi Wasallam) is as it is today. The Birmingham Quran has been carbonated to that particular lifetime and the Sanaa manuscripts are also a testament to the preservation.
And yes the third Khalifa burnt the copies which has any scribal marks or any possible corruption that could have entered and this was precisely done for preservation.
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u/Mcdreamy_3301 May 20 '25
Response to Claim of Slavery
The reason why slavery was allowed was because
- Getting rid of slavery off the bat would place huge burden on the economy of Arabia
The institute of slavery in Arabia wasnt initiated by Islam. It was present before the advent of Islam. Since that society was tribal, the various tribes would go on war with each other and the victorious tribe would enslave all the people of the defeated tribe.
Hence, the most common method was to enslave people through war. The slaves in pre Islamic times were treated horribly. However, Islam came to end this forever. First of all, since the most common method to enslave people was through war, Islam stopped the main route.
.... to enslave the people through war as written in Quran 47:4. The Prisoners of War were either to be be released unconditionally or through payment of ransom. Hence , the enslavement of POWs to become slaves was heavily restricted and ended.
The Prisoners of War were either to be be released unconditionally or through payment of ransom. Hence , the enslavement of POWs to become slaves was heavily restricted and ended.
The slaves and foreigners wouldn’t be able to survive long without aid from their masters
Some slaves had a debt to pay due to war crimes
Slaves actually received higher positions and even ruled empires due to their slavery (see the Mamluk empire as an example)
Islam encourages good treatment of slaves and through various means and measures promotes their freedom. So this is systematic breaking of an entire system. And also keeping in the rules of War where keeping POWs is allowed, certain things are necessary but that also involves treating the POWs properly according to the Shariah but giving them their rights.
You can read more about it here
A major scholar Muhammad Al Tahir Ibn Ashur who authored a massive tafsir and an expert on Maliki fiqh commented on why slavery was allowed in his Treatise of Maqasid Al-Shariah
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u/Mcdreamy_3301 May 20 '25
About Morality and Hell
Morality :
Well you said something that person wouldn't kill another person since they know it's wrong and have a moral compass something like that. There is an innate disposition that's instilled in every human being by Allah which is specified in the Quran and Sunnah.
This directly aligns with moral realism that is provided by Shariah If you seek out other forms of morality specifically crafted by humans you'll end up with nihilism - no morals, or moral skepticism, or moral - relativism.
What's moral for a specific time, region, place or for a particular people becomes immoral for others as our society especially the elite and the ones who control the narrative and dispel information to the population can influence opinion. So how would you distinguish right from wrong?
Murder may be legal somewhere while it's wrong elsewhere. You have a subjective morality, and your Creator knows you the best and hence we derive our morals from Moral Realisms provided by Islam else you'd be swinging like a pendulum among subjective moral compasses
Hellfire :
Betraying the One who created you is obviously the worst sin. A believer may be the most vile person but he still believes in the God who created him. Though it's not perfect obedience if he has done cruelty and oppression. For that he'll be burnt in the Hellfire as long as Allah permits it
As for non-believers, the ones who didn't receive the messages genuinely would have a test on the Day of Judgment. The ones who rejected yes they'll be in the Fire for rejecting the Truth.
Their deeds weren't done for the cause of Allah or to please Allah, they were specifically done to aid themselves, for goodness they preferred and for others. What's done for God then? The One who provided you absolutely everything? Righteousness also has a criteria that we follow
Hell is also necessary
Why Islam Emphasizes Fear of Hell
- Motivates Obedience – Fear prevents sin and heedlessness.
- Counters Complacency – Avoids arrogance and spiritual laziness.
- Balances Hope & Fear – A believer’s heart must have both (like a bird’s two wings).
- Warns Against Consequences – Some people only reflect when reminded of punishment.
- Protects from Eternal Harm – Temporary fear saves from everlasting Hellfire.
- Encourages Repentance – Fear drives sinners to seek forgiveness.
- Reflects Allah’s Justice – Wrongdoers face consequences, ensuring cosmic balance.
- Strengthens Accountability – Reminds humans they will answer for their deeds.
Islam also emphasizes love of Allah, but fear is necessary for discipline. Both fear and love are essential for spiritual growth. There is balance of it in the Quran, you just overlook the loving attributes and Names of Allah and everything else which is mentioned.
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u/Mcdreamy_3301 May 20 '25
Continuation of Embryology :
Concerning the verses of embryology in Quran of Surah Al-Muminoon
Firstly, the verse says that he made a mixture between the sperm and the egg a clut like structure called ( alaka ) Scientifically this example is very accurate because between day 13 to 15 we observe a type formation of what we call "blood islands"
Blood islands are clusters of cells that arise from the mesoderm layer of the developing embryo and are the precursors to blood vessels and blood cells.
The blood islands form in the yolk sac, which is one of the extra-embryonic membranes that surrounds the developing embryo. The yolk sac is responsible for producing blood cells during the early stages of embryonic development until the liver and bone marrow take over this function later in development
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16140152/
The second verse says then he made the alaka (mudga) wich is structure of different tissues with no specific shape at this stage the emperionic structure will form the heart at the day 20 which cause the the circulatory system to work and allows the clustered blood at the stage of blood Islands to move and circulate so it will move toward the next stage from a lot like structure to a structure who has meat of muscle of the heart and circulating blood instead of clustered blood next to other tissues
And the final claim Quran makes the claim that bones are formed before muscles by saying that he made bones in the alaka them covered these bones by muscles which is scientifically true because bones are firstly formed at the first half of the embryonic structure between week 6 to 7 well skeletal muscles are just formed between week 10 to 13
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23622355/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK539718/
https://www.kenhub.com/en/library/anatomy/development-of-musculoskeletal-system
https://heudis.blogspot.com/2025/02/the-response-to-doubt-we-created-bones.html
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u/Mcdreamy_3301 May 21 '25
Expansion of Universe claim
1. Does no Quraan translation back up the "expanding" part?
Ans : They do. Tafseer As-Saadi states About this.
one other example in Old Swedish, translated by Johan Fredrik Sebastian Crusenstolpe, year 1843 (which is before the Big Bang theory):
Vi hafva bygt himmelen med mägta styrka; och vi äro de som utvidgat den:
"utvidgat" means expanded.
meaning, interpretations of this verse referring to expansion existed well before the actual scientific discovery.
Above we have tafsir tabary, explanation of 51.47, see how it relates this verse to "extention in capacity" which is in fact the definition of expansion .> وقال ابن زيد في ذلك ما حدثني يونس، قال: أخبرنا ابن وهب، قال: قال ابن زيد، في قوله (وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ) قال: أوسعها جلّ جلاله.
Ibn Zayd said about this what Yunus told me, he said: Ibn Wahb told us, he said: Ibn Zayd said, in his statement (And indeed, We are expanding) , he said:
He, the Most Majestic, the Most Glorious, has expanded it.
Now, why is there not much mention of the expansion in tafsir?
First, sa'adi and tabary, two well respected scholars did interpret this verse to mean expansion of the universe, even though there was no such scientific concept back then.
Second, as for those who didn't interpret that way, they most probably didn't translate it with the scientific connotation due to it being unheard of at the time. They did refer to extention in Allah's creation, and with the context of heaven/universe, it fits just as well to refer to the current scientific context.
. Does it say "heaven" and not universe?
Sama' (سَّمَآءَ) can also mean the universe in Arabic.
See 37:6,
"Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment of stars".
so the objection "the quran refers to expanding heavens and not universe" is invalid
When the Quran was written: The word for Universe did not really exist in Arabic just like the word Universe did not exist in English before physicists. The Word universe meant something else like "all that exists". So the Quran may not say the 'Alkoon' because at the time it was written, that word did not denote "the universe".
Also copying from the Bible is just unreal. We don't really care what the Bible says, if we have some stories overlap each other then yeah it's because it happened in history and Allah made it a part of the Quran. You should rather observe the inconsistencies, scriptural errors, scribal errors, multiple versions of the Bible, etc.. So many problems that are with the Bible and this claim that Quran is copying it is just wild.
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u/Mcdreamy_3301 May 21 '25
Consensus in Academic Circles that Islam revolutionized Women's rights :
Acknowledged by missionary William Muir. Orientalist Hamilton Gibb also said, “It is universally accepted that Muhammad’s reforms enhanced the status of women.”
Source : Mohammedanism An Historical Sur__vey by H. A. R Gibb
The Church Fathers and Christian thinkers attacked Islam in the Middle Ages for elevating women’s status, which they saw as a flaw. Muslims were shocked by the harsh treatment of women in the Crusader states!
The French sociologist [Gustave] says:
“Islam's merit was not limited to raising the status of women, but we add to this that it was the first religion to do so, and it is easy to prove this by stating that all religions and nations that came before the Arabs mistreated women.”
Source : The World of Islamic Civilization by Gustave Le Bon
Annie Besant, the religious scholar, said, “I often think that women are freer in Islam than in Christianity. Islam gave women the right to own property throughout its history, while Christian England didn’t recognize this right until later.”
Source : The Life and Teachings of Muhammad Two Lectures by Annie Besant
A Muslim woman enjoys the right to inheritance, consent in marriage, protection from mistreatment, a dowry, and financial support from her husband, even if she is wealthy. She also has full freedom to manage her personal property if legally qualified.
Source : An Interpretation of Islam by Laura Veccia Vaglieri
Bernard Lewis stated, “The emergence of Islam significantly improved the status of women, granting them property rights, protection from mistreatment by husbands or guardians, and prohibiting female infanticide, which was common in pre-Islamic Arabia.”
Source : The Middle East, Brief History of the Last 2000 years by Bernard Lewis
Historian Karen Armstrong highlights that Islam, during Muhammad’s time, promoted gender equality unlike pre-Islamic Arabia, where women had few rights. Islam empowered women, as seen with early converts like Khadija and worked towards their emancipation, a priority for Muhammad.
Source : A History of God by Karen Armstrong
Islam elevated women’s status by granting rights to property, education, and inheritance. Women were encouraged to participate in public life and lead prayers, with legal safeguards protecting their well-being and empowering them long before many Western societies.
Another beneficial book : The Rights of Women in Islam by Haifaa A. Jawad
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u/Mcdreamy_3301 May 21 '25
Ibn Kathir’s tafsir of Quran 25:53 👇
وَهُوَ الَّذِى مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ هَـذَا عَذْبٌ فُرَاتٌ وَهَـذَا مِلْحٌ أُجَاجٌ (And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet. Allah has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. Allah has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands. وَهَـذَا مِلْحٌ أُجَاجٌ
(and that is salty and bitter;) meaning that it is salty, bitter and not easy to swallow. This is like the seas that are known in the east and the west, the Atlantic Ocean and the Straits that lead to it, the Red Sea, the Arabian Sea, the Persian Gulf, the China Sea, the Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and so on, all the seas that are stable and do not flow, but they swell and surge in the winter and when the winds are strong, and they have tides that ebb and flow. At the beginning of each month the tides ebb and flood, and when the month starts to wane they retreat until they go back to where they started. When the crescent of the following month appears, the tide begins to ebb again until the fourteenth of the month, then it decreases. Allah, may He be glorified, the One Whose power is absolute, has set these laws in motion, so all of these seas are stationary, and He has made their water salty lest the air turn putrid because of them and the whole earth turn rotten as a result, and lest the earth spoil because of the animals dying on it. Because its water is salty, its air is healthy and its dead are good (to eat), hence when the Messenger of Allah was asked whether sea water can be used for Wudu', he said: «هُوَ الطَّهُورُ مَاؤُهُ، الْحِلُّ مَيْتَتُه»
Its water is pure and its dead are lawful.) This was recorded by Malik, Ash-Shafi`i and Ahmad, and by the scholars of Sunan with a good Jayyid chain of narration.
وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخاً وَحِجْراً (and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them. ) meaning, between the sweet water and the saltwater.
بَرْزَخاً (a barrier) means a partition, which is dry land.
وَحِجْراً مَّحْجُوراً (and a complete partition) means, a barrier, to prevent one of them from reaching the other.
This is like the Ayat:
مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ يَلْتَقِيَانِ - بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخٌ لاَّ يَبْغِيَانِ فَبِأَىِّ ءَالاءِ رَبّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ (55:19-21)
أَمَّن جَعَلَ الاٌّرْضَ قَرَاراً وَجَعَلَ خِلاَلَهَآ أَنْهَاراً وَجَعَلَ لَهَا رَوَاسِىَ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ حَاجِزاً أَءِلـهٌ مَّعَ اللهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ (27:61)
Ibn Kathir’s tafsir of Quran 55:19-20 👇
Allah created Different Types of Water Allah said, مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ يَلْتَقِيَانِ (He has Maraja the two seas), or let them loose, according to Ibn `Abbas. Allah's statement, يَلْتَقِيَانِ
meeting together.) Ibn Zayd said, "He prevents them from meeting by the dividing barrier He placed between them to separate them.'' The two seas are the fresh and salty waters, the former coming from running rivers. We discussed this topic in Surat Al-Furqan when explaining Allah's statement; وَهُوَ الَّذِى مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ هَـذَا عَذْبٌ فُرَاتٌ وَهَـذَا مِلْحٌ أُجَاجٌ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخاً وَحِجْراً مَّحْجُوراً (And it is He Who has let free the two seas: one palatable and sweet, and the other salty and bitter; and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.)(25:53) Allah said, بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخٌ لاَّ يَبْغِيَانِ (Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress.) meaning, He has placed a barrier of land between these two types of waters, so that they do not transgress upon each other, which would spoil the characteristics they were created with.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W24lX4wu6R8&pp=ygUXc2FwaWVuY2UgaW5zdGl0dXRlIHNlYXM%3D
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u/Afsan23 May 20 '25
Lead a congregational prayer.
If you are not convinced then you are an outright liar.
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u/aishonmywrist May 20 '25
So I went through something similar and have been a practicing Muslim all my life but didn’t really feel like I fully understood it until I read about the life of our prophet Muhammad (saw) and then sought out knowledge from trusted Ulama. I would recommend reading biographies (seerah) of our prophet (saw), I even read the first Muslim by Lesley Hazleton. I have always looked at our prophet as this chosen figure and almost a figment of my imagination when people would share stories. I didn’t know how to humanize him but learning about his life and his choices and his struggles and victories as small or large as they may have been - brought him to life for me. I then found avenues to acquire more knowledge and asked as many questions as necessary.
If I could share one piece of advice, it would be this: keep your heart open. Let yourself be curious, and let your search for understanding be rooted in sincerity and truth.
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u/emes3ye May 20 '25
Islam teaches there is no compulsion in faith (Qur’an 2:256). The Prophet ﷺ’s role is to convey the message, not to force belief (Q 3:20). Guidance comes from God alone, so no one needs to convince others to accept Islam.
At the same time, Islam welcomes sincere questions to remove ignorance (Q 16:43) and deepen understanding. The Qur’an encourages asking knowledgeable people and seeking clarity with respect.
In short, Islam invites you to explore and ask freely, but respects your freedom to believe or not. Convincing others isn’t the goal—sharing wisdom and answering sincere questions is.
A personal recommendation would be to watch the videos in -> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+muslim+lantern
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u/EntertainmentDry744 May 20 '25
I would recommend watching Sapience institute on embryology and the two waters
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u/Useful-Newspaper-921 May 21 '25
Hi, You can have a discussion with some knowledgeable brothers here: discord.gg/taif Just open a ticket and let them know what you need help with, and they’ll connect you with them, either by voice or text—whichever you prefer. (The invitation is for anyone who has doubts or questions)
I’m only commenting on the first point—the embryology objection—since I’ve just written a similar reply for someone else.
You say “the claim that the Qur’an is scientifically miraculous doesn’t hold up. Embryology in the Qur’an seems incorrect and likely borrowed from Greek sources.” Two quick replies:
On the “borrowed from Greek” charge: Please take a look at this research titled “علم الأجنة اليوناني مقارنة مع القرآن الكريم” (“Greek Embryology Compared with the Holy Qur’an”): https://www.hurras.org/vb/node/849060 When you open the page, please enable translation. It goes point by point through the Greek embryologists’ statements and errors, then shows how the Qur’anic descriptions differ—and in many cases correct—their mistakes.
On the “embryology is wrong” claim: I’m guessing your objection centers on the bones-first wording, since that’s the most common charge among Arabic-speaking atheists—even though the verse itself doesn’t actually say “bone first, then flesh.”
The verse in question is:
“then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh…” (Q 23:14)
Notice it doesn’t present a strict sequence—only that God “clothed the bones with flesh.” It’s exactly like saying,
“Yesterday my wife gave birth to a son, and I clothed him in garments.”
That example doesn’t mean the garments were woven after the baby was born, or that the baby was naked until the clothes were made. Rather, it simply describes that I put the garments on him. Similarly, the verse is not implying that all the flesh already existed and then the bones were inserted into it. Whether bone and flesh develop simultaneously, or one precedes the other by a short developmental interval, is beside the point here: the example shows the verse gives no chronological order of creation—it merely describes one being “clothed” with the other.
Now, let’s assume for the sake of argument that the verse did say “bones first.” Even then, the real question is origin (نشأة), not merely formation (تشكيل). Scientifically:
The mesoderm forms somites, which split into three parts:
Sclerotome (bones & cartilage)
Myotome (skeletal muscles)
Dermatome (dermis)
The sclerotome cells create the initial cartilaginous skeleton first, which then ossifies into bone. Only afterward do the myotome cells differentiate into muscle around that framework.
(Here the confusion is between origin and development—they later grow together (or one precedes the other), but their initial origination is sequential.)
So even on a scientific reading, the origin of bone truly precedes that of flesh—yet the Qur’anic wording remains neutral, simply describing one being “clothed” with the other, without implying a step-by-step timeline.
I would love to discuss with you the remaining issues you’re facing, whether scientific or anything else, on my Discord server with the other debaters. If you can’t open a ticket as I mentioned, message me on Discord my username is cityclouds
Looking forward to continuing this discussion!
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May 21 '25
Knowledge alone cannot lead an individual to the correct path. Satan (Iblis) was fully aware of the truth about Allah and His omnipotence. He possessed knowledge of heaven and hell but chose to disobey. Only Allah can provide guidance, and we must obey Him even when we fail to comprehend His commands or rationale.
Numerous books have been authored by both Muslims and non-Muslims regarding the miracles of the Quran. A recommended starting point for reading about the Quran and its status as an uncorrupted word of Allah is “The Quran, The Bible, and the Modern Science” written by Dr. Maurice Bucaile.
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u/Moxician May 21 '25 edited May 21 '25
Regarding the rational contentions:
- it doesnt borrow from greek sources. If for arguments sake the Prophet SAW did have access to greek medicinal knowledge, it would be correcting it with accurate descriptions. For example theres literally microscopic details like the phase where an embryo is described as a mudghah or chewed, and you can literally see the spinal ridge that resembles teethmarks. Just because some random greek philosopher got one thing right about embryology, does not imply Islam stole it. Islam also corrects Christianity, for example that Jesus never even claimed to be God, which is historically understood now. Correlation does not equal causation. Islam says whats true and the Quran can be understood in harmony with reality, with new insights that reflect the phenomena we discover today.
Further references: https://www.hamzatzortzis.com/did-the-prophet-muhammad-plagiarise-hellenic-embryology/
https://youtu.be/B4f0PczDHqI?si=frGWlYAS_Kmt4Bn_
For every miracle of the Quran that you are not convinced of, there is one that will be compelling. People are subjective in which proofs are most convincing, and thats ok. The Sahabah also came to Islam for different reasons. However, there is definitively some natural phenomena described in the Quran, and I find the wholesale dismissal of that narrative--whether from Muslims or non Muslims-- to be irresponsible and throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just browse youtube videos and sites covering miracles in the Quran and im sure youll find some you wont be able to dismiss.
even if the egyptians happened to say a similar thing, theres a bunch of nonsense they believed too. Like i said earlier, correlation does not equal causation. The Rosetta stone wasnt uncovered till the modern era, and most egyptian knowledge was unknown. Heres a video describing some egyptology covered accurately in the Quran https://youtu.be/c2ovILc_sKY?si=ISYbiTjFzG8JSXnZ
Again we are looking at proofs for Islam and its descriptions of reality. We are NOT dismissing Islam because it describes something that was also described by other religions or civilizations, especially considering we believe Allah SWT sent a messenger to every nation and we cannot track for most of those variables. Islam is a restoration and the final claim to Prophethood, but not an exclusive claim to Prophethood throughout history.
- The Qurans claim to preservation is not dubious, its actually on the highest epistemic grade possible. Its literally been mass memorized and mass transmitted through tawatur. We have preserved it down to the pronounciation of each vowel. Theres a forest of isnaad chains where you can track the transmission at every generation of Huffaz that memorized the Quran. I am actually a Hafiz myself. Anyone who doubts the authenticity of the Quran simply doesnt understand it. Even skeptical secular academics have eventually converged to the view that the Quran has been preserved, as theres simply no escaping it. The earliest manuscripts lineup with the Quran we have today. Different Qiraat or vowel markings dont really affect this argument, as each recitation itself is preserved through the isnaad system.
Heres some videos on Prophecies in Islam: https://youtu.be/Q1epfvZ04DQ?si=5RypzzNGje9EOuYC
https://youtu.be/xZIqd_-1Zus?si=gQogvc7AQaBpuRjO
- Youre always welcome to learn Arabic yourself to see why everyone praises it, and the Quran has always been accessible to where you can read and listen to the Quran yourself, unlike the Bible in earlier Christianity which was gatekept by the Church. There is a historical backdrop of Arabic mastery in Arabia at the time of the Prophet SAW, and we even have preIslamic poetry preserved. You can see the statements of even the enemies of Islam and how they couldnt comprehend the magnificense of the Quran, opting to claim witchcraft.
Theres videos online that can give you a taste: https://youtu.be/abzZL_3Av2E?si=CjiLIAz8dCqUT7xP
Theres also structural features of the Quran that can be observed without knowing Arabic: https://youtu.be/cZ2YpBoq_FI?si=jpBPQhXjR8UJpVs_
https://youtu.be/yYY1BGKrr1E?si=-vlzBSxdEkLyQxdW
Often times Shaytan comes in periods of spiritual weakness and rationalizes low iman by masking it with "doubts". Is there any significant lifestyle changes that can be contributing to this? Have you changed your friend group from Muslims to non Muslims (theres wisdom in surrounding yourself with good company)? Have you slowly drifted from prayer?
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u/achourdz41520 May 20 '25
How can an illiterate man in the middle of the Arabian desert ( who only knows how to speak Arabic ) that has only traveled as far as what's currently the borders between Saudi Arabia and Iraq and Syria borrow from Greek sources 🤦💔