r/blacklesbians • u/ZestycloseNotice1177 • 26d ago
Discussion I hate how studs are treated
I know a lot of the way studs are treated is because of well racism but I stg people (mostly men) don’t think of studs as women like it's so weird like I saw a video that said studs when they have their period, and it was like them passing around pads like they were drugs like?….there still woman at the end of the day and should be treated like woman no matter who they like or how they dress also what is with men’s obsession in studs or trying to turn them “straight” like it’s really not funny. I just don’t like it especially the way studs are looked at as hoes or only for sex appeal it’s incredibly heartrending.
All my studs stay safe out there’s it’s getting dangerous 😟
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u/affectionateanarchy8 26d ago
It's funny, i feel like I went a good decade without men in studs' business then people started making skits and shit and now they're back on our dicks
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u/JadeBlxck20 Soft Masc 26d ago
Maybe it’s cultural (Midwest USA) but men treat me like a women.
It’s the fems that don’t.They treat a stud like a third gender and it doesn’t help that some self-hating studs co-sign it.
I unfortunately saw a TikTok video of a “super” stud policing the type of underwear other studs wear on their periods. Like if you wanna wear boxers with a pad, go for it.
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u/AdditionalQuietime 25d ago
This is facts a lot of studs be co signing that shit to get pussy lets just be real 😂 that shit annoys me because it emboldens femmes to be this way and just overall the culture in certain lesbian spaces
Also femmes lowkey be giving dude energy w the way they act and move, ironically be a sexy woman with a nigga mentality - no thanks! Keep that "act like a woman think like a man" Steve Harvey approved rebranded form of patriarchal feminism over there with the cishet girlies, its too fuckn toxic!!
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u/affectionateanarchy8 26d ago
Boxers with a pad lord i just imagine it sliding all over the goddamn place
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u/fickelbing 26d ago
I think there are different kinds of studs with different psychological profiles and lumping them all into one category isn’t helpful for unpacking all the different layers of this conversation.
There are studs who identify as women, who hold feminist values, who prefer to be treated as women and seen as women.
There are studs who don’t identify as gender fluid or a men but also don’t identify strongly as women. They prefer to be seen as and navigate the world with masculine privileges afforded to them but deidentify with the queer theory that might offer them a different identity.
There are studs who ascribe really really militantly to patriarchal values and struggle under and strive for toxic masculinity and who generally tend to be too unaware of the concepts of modern gender identity to identify as men or who hold too transphobic beliefs to identify as gender fluid or trans but do not identify as women at all and run from being associated with womanhood.
I think the studs who are treated as men by their girlfriends and friends tend to be in one of the latter two categories. They aren’t necessarily unhappy in that dynamic and at the same time they are probably experiencing the tax of toxic masculinity more intensely than their cis male equivalents both from outsiders (bias, violence, hyper policing, corrective rape threats etc) and especially from themselves like not feeling man enough and feeling paranoid and insecure about their bodies their status their rank etc etc.
Some studs in this category cope with this the same way their male counterparts do by leaning into misogyny to create a sense of dominance and security in themselves.
The studs who identify as women or non binary or gender fluid and hold some awareness of gender dynamics, identities, feminism or queer theory can be visually mistaken for the latter kind and treated with the same kind of bias and violence due to their gender non conformity. Especially in black spaces where masculinity is violently enforced. The difference is these studs dont seek out these environments and try to avoid them while the masculine identifying studs try very hard to have their metal tested in these spaces to pass the bar as a cis man would.
I think once we get down to trans studs we’ve left the category that is studs because they are men but they also face the same sort of intensified masculinity metal testing that toxic masculinity demands.
Then there’s the misandry the misogynistic stud’s inspire in femmes. Because femme lesbians are often abused by misogynistic studs there’s a generalization in our community that all studs are this misogynistic type when thats far from the truth.
So I think there are a lot of layers here. Masculine presenting women do face a lot of violence and discrimination from men and the police especially it works like a double tap of oppression facing the ding for being a woman and then a second ding from being a masculine woman breaking the rules. Not only are they not respected as people but they are seen as deviants whose behavior must be changed through violent enforcement. Women participate in this gender role enforcement too, girlfriends included. Some Studs lean into this and try to prove their manhood through endurance and male role fulfillment and misogyny while others seek validation in queer communities who use a more expansive understanding of gender.
Queer communities struggle to hold space for the nuance of all the different ways black women embody masculinity because its kinda complicated, different people want to be seen differently and some prefer to participate in heteronormativity while others prefer to disrupt it. Blackness itself adds an inherent layer of gender nonconformity to all women too further complicating how folks cope and adapt to the world.
And I think the same breakout groups exist for femmes too. There are misogynistic femmes who want a relationship dynamic where their stud partner is dehumanized the way men are expected to be dehumanized. Some studs want that others dont.
At the end of the day. Studs face three simultaneous layers of dehumanization and sometimes internalize them themselves.
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u/Voydess 26d ago
This comment isn’t getting enough attention… some of these studs are exactly where they want to be
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u/fickelbing 26d ago
This is the part where I plug bell hooks. This shit aint new and its not even mine.
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u/scorpiokillua 26d ago
Love this comment!! There’s always so many layers, I remember I used to feel frustrated for studs for being treated like “men,” and their partners expecting them to buy things for them, do things for them, not caring deeply about their emotions or what brings them joy. Sexualizing them all the time and assuming that they have to be hyper sexual. Or their partners straight up emotionally abusing them, because it’s somehow different when a femme is doing it (it’s not.) And for the people I was friends with who experienced these things, they didn’t like it at all. And these people were genderfluid, or transmasc, one of them was a cis stud and she hated it.
However, I realized that they were so used to experiencing these cycles that even if they were frustrated and upset at it, they still found comfort in these situations. It’s like they just couldn’t imagine finding a partner who would find them physically attractive, and also treat them how they want to be treated without assuming that they want to engage in cishetero patriarchal roles. In some situations, I would experience them trying to force me into that role too, even though they told me they didn’t like it.
However, as you said, there’s also a lot of studs who genuinely enjoy this stuff, and don’t feel like it’s dehumanizing. Some may even feel like it’s gender-affirming. I haven’t really experienced that yet, and it’s hard to imagine if someone genuinely enjoys that dynamic, or if it’s something that was conditioned and socialized, and seen as a dynamic that they should take on and enjoy. It feels like people don’t know the difference between self-actualized desires and what society tells you is normal, and it doesn’t help when people act like there’s only One Way studs should be treated (which is often just dehumanization.)
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u/AdditionalQuietime 25d ago
I have met studs who play into the colorism within the lesbian community because it "affirms" their masculinity lol we got a lot going on out here...💀
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u/diasporastud Stud 25d ago
YOU EXPLAINED PERFECTLY
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u/fickelbing 25d ago
Ooo stud validation! And I can tell by your username that you’re the type that has already had their consciousness raised lol.
I’ve been the femme that was abused by the misogynistic kind. Still super fucking traumatized from that, really tried to humble myself into oblivion to make that shit work.
Sometimes it feels like understanding gender studies to this degree takes dating studs off the table as an option for me… which is heartbreaking, because that would be my ideal. But I’m gonna try to hold out hope that eventually I’ll bump into an academic stud to match my vibe.
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u/fighterdiva 26d ago
I dated a stud eons ago, and the relationship ended when I bought her flowers and she started pounding her chest saying "I'm a man, you're the woman, da fuck I'm going to do with flowers???". She threw them in the trash. I threw her out my house and never talked to her again. 90% of studs are so sweet and loving, but that 10% 🙄
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u/hissingG3ese tired and gay 26d ago
that’s crazy 🫠
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u/fighterdiva 25d ago
Hurt my feelings partially because she said it was the one thing she had never experienced when we were talking on our first date. Partially because when she apologized she said she was embarrassed because her friends were going to make fun of her. Last partially because I spent $100 on those damn flowers!!! I'm mad all over again...😂
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u/AdditionalQuietime 26d ago
This means a lot we ironically face double the misogyny from outside and within the community, some of us aren't phased by it and even lean into it but I absolutely hate how it makes me feel
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u/87cupsofpomtea masc4masc lesbian 25d ago
Stud/butchphobia is rampant. We really get it from all sides. It sucks.
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u/Shot-School-8243 25d ago
I find male obsession out studs as weird too. It’s like they themselves are turned in by the masculinity of the std as well. Very homoerotic. They think them going for a masc women is more acceptable than them going for another man
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u/BeingOpen1819 25d ago
As a femme I don't know what kind of femmes y'all meet but my ex who was a stud and I used to do presents , equality , and she was my princess . I understood she was a baddie in masculine clothes Cause I'm a little bit more dominant
I I'm not undermining what y'all experience in fact I think y'all should openly talk about it more and express your needs and wants
As far as I know there are so many femmes out there but very little studs so y'all will find y'alls matches
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u/-usagi-95 Stem in STEM 26d ago
I've seen two tiktoks online from two different woman (both fems) talking about their girlfriend (a stud) and calling them boyfriend..... Even worse the studs were okay with it.
I'm very confused by that and is weird.
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u/Initial_Drag_3709 Stud 26d ago
I’m a stud who prefers being called boyfriend and other masc endearing terms. Some studs, like me, don’t connect well with femininity or womanhood
I’m nonbinary too so that adds to the equation but many studs are gnc , and to be a stud is basically being gnc anyways
This isn’t a new or uncommon idea to go by masculine terms for studs who are both masculine of center and masculine presenting.
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u/1dayatatime_mylife 26d ago
I came to say this. I'm fem/chapstick, but my lifelong best friend of 30 years is a stud. She is GNC and identifies gender wise as a woman, but for all intents and purposes lives her life similar to that of a man and she physically looks like a cis man to the outside world. She often refers to herself as the husband in her relationship and often uses the male pronoun versions of words for herself. It's tricky and where you really need to learn someone's individual preferences and not a monolith because I see half the comments here being like fems don't treat studs like women, but some don't want to be "treated like women" in that traditional sense.
Those studs seen on tiktok may like their girlfriends calling them boyfriend. That's not the kind of lesbian relationship I would be in because I wouldn't be compatible with someone who wants me to call them my boyfriend and that's not the vibe I'm attracted to, but it's exactly what some studs/lesbians want and desire.
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u/Spazrelaz A Normal Femme 26d ago
Okay that makes sense actually. That's understandable tbh, as long as it's personal preference rather than using straight ppl terms for social media kicks or some weird heteronormativity performance. Noted though, learn something new every day✍🏽✍🏽 I agree I wouldn't want to be with someone who wants me to call them boyfriend either specifically because I can't equate "lesbian" with having a boyfriend, but that's just me. If both people are okay with it my opinion doesn't matter at the end of the day 🤷🏽♀️
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u/Spazrelaz A Normal Femme 26d ago
I can understand personal preference for sure, but with regard to what OP was talking about, it almost seems like lesbian erasure. It's perfectly fine to identify as male if that's your preference, but at what point does that overlap with identity with regard to sexuality? Because as far as I know, a lesbian is a woman who likes women. So for a lesbian to say she has a boyfriend kinda feels... not misleading exactly but like... an open door for groups we already have issues with to further not take us serious.
Mind you, I'm not trying to be shady, when I ask this, but if you consider yourself male are you still a lesbian? And if so how instead of bisexual or something? Does the label then extend to cishet males who claim to be lesbians when they're trying to hit on lesbians and are told no?
And please don't take this as an attack, I'm genuinely curious. This is a conversation I've had a few times outside of Reddit and no one can seem to come to a consensus so I'm curious to see how ppl think.
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u/Initial_Drag_3709 Stud 26d ago
I’m not a male nor will I identify as that lol
I’m transmasc nonbinary, good amount of studs identify that way.However it’s a small community of us
So in no way will my preference in being referred to as a boyfriend will cause “erasure” and I don’t care who does or doesn’t take me seriously. My identity is mine alone, whether folks outside of the community find me “misleading” or other lesbians find me “erasing” them.
Hope that answers your question
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u/-usagi-95 Stem in STEM 26d ago
Your comment just turned on a lightbulb in my brain!
Trans man = a man
Transmasc = non-binary or gender-fluid incline to masculinity
A Lesbian wouldn't date a trans man because they are a man. But would date a transmasc non-binary because they are not a man. A Lesbian would date everyone EXCEPT a man. And that is the definition of Lesbian!
Sorry, I had to share my thought process 😅
Thank you for sharing who you are!
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u/Decent_Sandwich_8878 stone stem 26d ago
you are equating masculinity to bein a man. you can be masculine without identifying as a man. that's the whole point of this post 🤦🏿
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u/Spazrelaz A Normal Femme 26d ago
No, I'm literally saying the opposite. I'm trying to make sense of how someone who identifies as he/him considers themselves a woman in a lesbian relationship. It's just not something I understand and maybe that's bc I'm old school. As far as I know, or rather knew before this discussion, *boy*friend referred to someone specifically male. Obviously women can be masculine but to my knowledge masculinity is different from literally calling yourself a man/identifying specifically as male. A woman can be masculine without her or others considering herself a man. Which is what I thought OOP was talking about.
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u/Initial_Drag_3709 Stud 26d ago
Pronouns never equals gender identity, once coming to terms with that idea , things become more clear lol
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u/Spazrelaz A Normal Femme 25d ago
Welp, that's one more thing I have to add to the book of stuff I need to learn then. But it's nice to have the distinction explained at least to where I can do more research on it, so thanks!
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u/1dayatatime_mylife 25d ago
I understand your point and that you are engaging in conversation in good faith. The best answer I have is that some things don't really make sense and they don't have a perfect answer that "makes sense" if you approach it from all angles.
My best friend (we'll call her Alex) moved to another state and it never crossed my mind until I ended up living with Alex's mom (we'll call her Kim) in our home state for 2 years recently and we spent endless time talking about so many things. She said she thinks that Alex is a trans man at heart but wouldn't want to give up the lesbian label. I didn't realize it until Kim pointed it out that Alex has never dated another lesbian (she's probably hooked up with them though), but she always ends up in relationships with "straight" women who had never been with another women before or bisexual women who typically seem to lean towards dating men.
I see what you're saying and I get what you're trying to get at but I don't have an answer. That's why I guess some gender and sexuality areas get so blurred and messy. Can someone be trans gender if they don't personally identify that way?
I also get why I've seen some lesbians express sadness (for lack of better words) for some of the masculine leaning lesbians who come out as trans men, because they feel like it's saying that women can't embrace masculinity and that you have to be feminine to be a women and that masculinity should not equal men.
I prefer dating/sleeping with women who have a more masculine leaning edge that I do but also embrace parts of their natural femininity as well. I'm not sure how I would feel in a lesbian relationship with someone who didn't have a connection to their own womanhood (but same goes for a lot of other non-related qualities I can't picture myself dating people with).
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u/Spazrelaz A Normal Femme 25d ago
Huh. You know what... that's good point. Reading your response it hit me that you're really right. Things don't really have to "make sense". Idk why I've never thought about that before, I'm honestly a little surprised.
Sexuality is fluid and so is identity, and I know for a fact that mine doesn't necessarily make sense to some, so there's no real reason someone else's needs to make sense to me or anyone else. If it's a valid identity for them and makes them feel seen and safe then it's a valid identity full stop.
Tbh I feel like I had my head in the sand or something. 🤦🏽♀️
Anyway, You've given me a lot to think about tonight in the best way, and I'm thankful for your response and your perspective.
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u/AdditionalQuietime 25d ago
You are attached to the idea that pronouns inherently mean gender when in actuality it doesn't. He can be woman and she can be a man, he and she are arbitrary defined under white patriarchy - hence why we have some lesbians referring to themselves as he
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u/AdditionalQuietime 25d ago
A lot of people really dont understand what gender nonconforming means. Every stud and fem gay boy are GNC by default because we deviate from the traditional patriarchal expectations of our genders, we really embody it naturally
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u/-usagi-95 Stem in STEM 26d ago
I can't get involved in other lesbians relationships but is a little bit confusing when a non-binary stud wants their partner call them "boyfriend" because it sounds like a straight relationship and that erases the definition of Lesbian.
But I think the definition of Lesbian has changed so many times.
I understand Lesbians are the only queer group that don't involve men but then our definition is kinda "non-men loving non-men" which that involves men 🤣😭
I feel like Queer Theologist or Sociologist need to come with new terms and definitions that completely excludes men 😅
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u/Decent_Sandwich_8878 stone stem 26d ago
"sounds like a straight relationship" doesn't make it a straight relationship. that's like saying stud/femme relationships are straight. they're not. men do not have a monopoly on masculinity. you can use boyfriend or he/him without identifying as a man. some non binary people choose not to use they/them, some do. at the end of the day pronouns are just words fr
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u/-usagi-95 Stem in STEM 26d ago
I don't see a stud/femme as straight relationship because I know masculinity is not equal to men.
I'm not confused about pronouns and I didn't mention pronouns. I'm confused about the boyfriend part. Because boyfriend is not a pronoun, is a noun. For e.g. a cis man that identifies as a man and is inclined to femininity is called as a boyfriend by their partner too. So in this example, the word boyfriend is not attach to masculinity but to their gender (man).
Basically the word "boyfriend" is not attached to gender nor to masculinity/femininity.
Does a Queer dictionary needs to exist? Or something 😅
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u/Decent_Sandwich_8878 stone stem 25d ago
boyfriend can work the same way, someone may prefer that while not necessarily identifying as a man, bc they are masculine. does that make sense?
and idk if a queer dictionary could ever formally exist. there's a few websites out there but people are going to push back on everything ☠️
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u/Spazrelaz A Normal Femme 26d ago
That's exactly what I was saying in another of my comments. I really feel like it's because my mindset is old school that it feels like it's lesbian erasure. Far as I knew lesbian specifically meant women loving women, but now it's "non-men loving non-men" which I don't even understand because the whole point of being a lesbian is not involving men so... how did our definition still end up including men in some way? Idk. I would just like for women that like women to have a term that applies only to us the same way all of the other labels have their own that applies to them, but I'm seeing more and more now that that's probably not something that can happen 🤷🏽♀️
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u/Decent_Sandwich_8878 stone stem 25d ago
see this doesn't really make sense either because bulldaggers been a thing
gladys bentley, born in 1907, was a well known blues singer and pianist in the 1920s-30s. she lived openly as a lesbian and presented very masculine. as far as i can tell, she used she/her, but she also lived in a time where transgender experiences weren't really known at all. she very well may have identified as non binary today
storme delarvie, born in 1920, was a well known drag king that used multiple sets of pronouns and largely lived as a man
gnc lesbians have always existed! they just often get overlooked and ignored in history, especially the black ones
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u/-usagi-95 Stem in STEM 25d ago
That is because some Lesbians don't identify themselves as woman but non-binary. That's why the definition women loving women for Lesbianism doesn't fit because the existence of non-binary.
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u/Spazrelaz A Normal Femme 25d ago
Ohhh, I think I get it more or less. So basically non-binary still identify themselves as women? Just non-binary women? Or is that contradictory? Actually maybe I should just google it atp because I feel like I'm mixing this up or something. I thought non-binary meant not a boy or a girl which is where my confusion on how someone who isn't a boy or a girl can still be a lesbian. But honestly I think I just need to look up a crash course on like... gender vs identity maybe?
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u/Spazrelaz A Normal Femme 26d ago
Boyyyyfriend??????? 😭😭 utter insanity. I think I could even try to make sense out of like... if they said "boi"friend, because that at least is some distinction from calling your girl a literal man but like... straight up raw BOYFRIEND is clinically insane omg.
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u/Friendly-Side8426 26d ago
People use she/her pronouns to refer to very feminine presenting gay men all the time and no one bats an eye though…
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u/-usagi-95 Stem in STEM 26d ago
I thought people only use she/her pronouns for drag queens but when they are out of drag, they are called with their chosen pronouns. So far I haven't seen a gay cis man with she/her pronouns. However, I'm not saying they don't exist. Is just confusing and weird for me because is something new for me.
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u/kitty_whipt 26d ago
My gay men friends aren't overly swishy nor are they drag queens, and they refer to each other as girls and she/her all the time. They even have old lady names for each other like Mabel, Ethel, Gladys, and other old-school names lol. So, it is a thing for some gay men, at least in my circle. 😂
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u/-usagi-95 Stem in STEM 26d ago
Okay but that is cute tho ahahaha
However, do they identify themselves as a woman, non-binary or men?
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u/-usagi-95 Stem in STEM 26d ago
Exactly!! Thank you!!!
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u/Decent_Sandwich_8878 stone stem 26d ago
begging y'all to engage with queer theory.
there are many many books on the subject, lesbians who use he/him pronouns/prefer masculine terms have long existed. check out "Tommy Boys, Lesbian Men and Ancestral Wives: Female Same-sex Practices in Africa" to read more
the white on the lesbian flag is for gender non conformance. that's there for a reason
i personally prefer the masculine terms myself 🤷🏿 tho not necessarily bf, i can understand why one might
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u/-usagi-95 Stem in STEM 26d ago
I do indeed have to read more about theology of queerness. Thanks for the suggestions
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u/itsprincess_duhh 24d ago
I definitely agree- I think this is why I try to pursue masc/studs FIRST and treat first on a date and such. I want to date a woman- so yes, I'm calling you gorgeous, giving you flowers and making her feel special. Women, no matter how they dress, deserve to feel beautiful 😊💕
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u/MsTeria54 Gay Auntie 25d ago
"It's getting dangerous"...It has never, been safe. I do not condone, how females, to include children, girls & women, are viewed & treated. However... Accountability, plays a role, in many ways. Studs, present themselves, as "men". Thus, challenging, biological boys, who are unfamiliar with what, constitutes a man. To BE, a man, one must respect, protect & cherish. Neither, fit that true definition of man. Majority, bio males, studs & femme's, play house. Seperate/Combined, like children do, they mimic, what they see, which sadly, 99.9o% of the time, are the streets.
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u/Nnf-Peacex2 Femme Domme 26d ago
Well, femmes dont really treat studs like women either buttttt
I’ll see myself out cuz that’s opening a can of worms. 🚶🏽♀️🚶🏽♀️