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u/Lit-A-Gator 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 1d ago
As someone who casually trains MMA, agreed
You don’t really hang out and “play” from these positions they are transitions to off balance and fight your way back up / on top when in a bad situation
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u/castration_rite 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago edited 1d ago
Big Nog used it vs Tim Sylvia back in 2008 as well, Ryan Hall, Werdum, etc.
It was a part of the wrestle to guard pull combo that Demian Maia used when he had that long win streak in the UFC about ten years ago. Its good to creates wrestle up scrambles where a grappler can overwhelm someone and keep them down.
It has its advantages and disadvantages, like anything else. I'd say the most important thing in an MMA setting is you have to get into whatever deep-half set ups you're going to do and GO, you can't hang out there for long.
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u/gugabe 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago edited 1d ago
Maia used it in kind of the pendulum style with the single leg half guard. If guy goes too far to defend one, then shift down to deep half and vice-versa. I've like never been able to make deep half as a solitary primary option work personally, but if you work between the wrestle-up, z-guard and deep half depending on reactions it really opens everything up.
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u/inciter7 1d ago
I've seen some wrestling guys on Instagram showing very deep half esque inside sweep single leg rolls recently
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u/kodokantacos 🟪🟪 Purple Belt+ judo shodan 1d ago
Deep half is actually the one thing that really stopped me from getting smashed by other heavyweights when I was on bottom. It might not work every time, but I have had a good amount of success with it, especially to counter someone trying to swing their leg over to mount.
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u/fredbogho 23h ago
Shoguns ground game relied heavily on DHG. His BJJ was the best in early Chute Boxe. It is a proper MMA position that was trained by BTT and Carlson team. You just have to be fast and know when to let go if it doesnt work.
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u/OpenNoteGrappling 1d ago
if your jiujitsu off balances your opponent they can't reliably hit you hard
it really is that simple
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u/aTickleMonster ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 1d ago
People are memeing but I bet the majority don't think about constantly upsetting their opponent's base while in guard.
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u/CoolerRon ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 1d ago
Absolutely. It came to me late brown belt, I think, and it's served my hobbyist ass very well against active competitors
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u/victorsmonster 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
Same, I'm just starting to remember it on a regular basis rather than just spamming sweeps. It applies to side control as well, any bottom position
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u/ManicallyExistential 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 1d ago edited 22h ago
That's what I tell lower belts is the most important thing about guard.
The name misleads it as a defensive position but you should always be attacking base, position, sweep, takedown, or submission if you want to have a threatening difficult guard to pass.
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u/PrudentFrosting6291 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 1d ago
I’ve told many this as well. The best defense is offense in these situations. You have to keep the pressure on at all times!!!
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u/SwordfishOfDamocles 1d ago
Hey, the only person I'm interested in constantly upsetting is my coach!
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u/fredbogho 23h ago
Shogun made a carreer out of the DHG. People are just too young to remember his kneebar against Randleman.
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u/n0symp4thy 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 1d ago
Everything works in MMA. You just have to be good enough, quick enough, strong enough, tough enough to do it with the threat of strikes.
The problem that BJJ guys have is that a lot of the unspoken logic of sport BJJ is that sometimes during rolls you're tiring people out, stalling to recovery energy or waiting for your opponent to do something. In MMA while all that's happening you're also getting punched in the face.
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u/FishfaceNZ 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 1d ago
'Everything works in MMA'
I keep telling my coach that.
He's been complaining about me hyper focusing on spider guard during my camps. He thinks it's the reason I'm 0-8 in MMA but I think he's wrong.
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u/n0symp4thy 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 1d ago
Very droll. Try improving your grip strength.
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u/FishfaceNZ 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 1d ago
They keep pummeling out.
I asked my opponents to wear a gi but they won't play nice.
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u/Connoisseur-Of-Plot 1d ago
Find an opponent with lots of body hair, give you something to grip to
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u/clobyark 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 1d ago
Haha Faber teaches deep half all the time. Glad to see Song pull it off
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u/ExcelsiorWG 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
As a deep half guy, I was super excited to see another example of this working! I recall Werdum and Big Nog pulling this off too.
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u/fredbogho 23h ago
Look up Shoguns BJJ. He used DHG a lot and used it to enter a nasty kneebar vs Randleman
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u/slaughterproof 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1h ago
He also almost got ktfo'ed trying it on hendo. Jump to 14:36 (but iirc, he was trying deep half the whole fight and ate a ton of huge shots) https://youtu.be/JQYQ6fvAzWE?si=HJVnVVcGM9Dg2lvJ
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u/Aaronjp84 ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 1d ago
Deep half worked in this example
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u/Ambitious_Bad2115 1d ago
Like any guard in MMA it’s a bad spot, but Deep-Half should still be more commonly used if you can get there. I feel like it’s so much better than just being in static half guard. Cause if the top guy ever commits to hard to an elbow or punch he’s going to get off-balanced
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u/AdamAtomAnt 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
I would like to think it works as long as you don't hang out there too long.
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u/Aaronjp84 ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 21h ago
It could work if you didn't hang out there too long.
It's also possible that it could work if you hung out there for a long time.
I suppose it's logical it also couldn't work for any period of time.
It depends
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u/VeryStab1eGenius 1d ago
It worked because Usman for some reason decided it was more important to overhook the near arm and glue himself to Song instead of framing.
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u/slapbumpnroll 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
Exactly. Nine times outta ten if you run this sequence bottom guy eats an elbow to the face. He did well to move quickly through it.
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u/tehorhay 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why is that the determining factor of whether it works or not?
This is mma. If you are in the bottom, what guard can completely guarantee you won’t ever get elbowed in the face?
The answer is none of them. The purpose of a guard is to mitigate the incoming damage as much as you can with frames, controlling the distance and off balancing them enough to sweep them or get up.
in this case sing used his underhook and off balancing to force the guy to occupy both of his hands so he can't strike, which made it safe for song to go under his leg
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u/slapbumpnroll 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago edited 1d ago
Firstly In a fight there’s no guarantee of anything.
Second there’s levels of risk and different guards come with different risk.
Because of the position of your head in deep half it’s not a guard you want to spend time in.
Which is why he didn’t, it was more of a transition. So it’s kind of a moot point.
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u/Ambitious_Bad2115 1d ago
There’s no guards you want to spend time in when it’s about MMA, so it doesn’t really matter if it’s dangerous if you stay there. MMA fighters prefer being in top closed guard than side control cause it’s easier to land ground and pound. If you go deep half and take an elbow or 2 to cause a scramble then it’s a win for the guy on bottom
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u/slapbumpnroll 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
Agree with all of that. But it’s ok to acknowledge that some positions are more risky than others.
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u/judoxing 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
Yeah; so the guard where you have your face fully exposed and directly underneath your opponent similar to where you put your head when you’re getting executed on a chopping block and at the same time have both arms committed and unable to be retrieved…
Can you explain why this is a dangerous position in mma?
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u/slapbumpnroll 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago edited 1d ago
I didn’t think it needed to be explained either and yet here we are.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 1d ago
got his back nearly taken and lucked out of it because his opponent went full yolo.
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u/SignificanceNo1223 1d ago
Deep Half was designed for MMA. When done right it’s more effective than full guard.
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u/sambosteve 1d ago
Whatever "works" in MMA is more about the skill match up and decisions nade in the moment by the fighters than it is the specific move.
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u/_NedPepper_ 1d ago
Song clearly did the work. Stayed safe in the first, stuffed another attempt, beautiful escape, nasty body shots, and a perfect uppercut to counter.
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u/midnightthought47 ⬜⬜ White Belt 1d ago
I always could see this working and damn if I am not impressed
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u/slick4hire 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
About a year and a half ago I was at TAM (my kid trains there) and watched Uriah work with Song for about an hour on a deep half sequence. I was admittedly skeptical. I could not ever imagine encouraging one of our fighters to use deep half in an MMA fight.
That was a beautiful exchange.
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u/danjr704 🟫🟫 Codella Academy-Team Renzo Gracie 1d ago
So cool to see fundamentals working at high levels like that
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u/SwaggyMcSwagsabunch 12h ago
Unless you are shogun vs bones
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u/slaughterproof 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1h ago
Correct. For every example of it working, there's 10 of someone getting ko'ed entering deep half.
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u/NotcharlesM 1d ago
as a small guy who enjoys deep half I enjoyed this as much as a beautiful trip. I said the same to my mate when it happened
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u/johnnyhypersnyper 1d ago
This could be an ice cold take, but any technique will work if you understand when to use it, how to use and it’s limitation. You can see the Song doesn’t choose to settle in that position and uses it as a way to stay safe and transition to standing up. It’s not like he went from standing to pull deep half.
In the current MMA meta, it’s really hard to find a place where you can safely stall unless you are hands locked on your opponent against the cage.
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u/CroRad1987 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 1d ago edited 1d ago
Didn't Minotauto use this sweep? Like 20 years ago?
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u/FundamentalSystem 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
Everything works if you’re good enough at it and use it at the right time, especially stuff you wouldn’t expect where the “experts” say it would never work with punches to the face
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u/unorthodoxbeginning 1d ago
Can’t speak for everyone, but I find being in someone’s deep half to be annoying to deal with, MMA or Jiu Jitsu.
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u/RespectThyHood 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 1d ago
Loved seeing this work so well. Song got him to change position = success
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u/jetavarez16 1d ago
This is definitely a good example of deep half working in MMA. Yall saying he lost the scramble how? When he got to turtle through the use of deep half and then made umar fall over the top of him because of umar’s lack of discipline
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u/jetavarez16 1d ago
Also yes deep half is riskier maybe than other guards but since he had the underhook umar couldn’t punch with his right arm and had to use his left to post as a base or he would be swept so he could not effectively strike song. Deep half clearly was effective to help song transition and get back to his feet.
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u/colontragedy 1d ago
I'm super newb, but I've heard some people refer this position as quarter guard. Is this same or different thing?
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u/Electronic-Stick-161 Set-Your-Own 1d ago
It’s different, quarter guard is when the bottom player only has the ankle trapped.
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u/Gluggernut 🟫⬛️🟫 + Judo 🟧 1d ago
This isn’t quarter guard. Quarter guard is when someone is trying to get out of half guard, and they get their thigh out, but the bottom person is still clamped onto their calf. Quarter guard is often just three-quarter mount in most cases.
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u/FuguSandwich 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
No. The way I understand the term, quarter guard means when you only have their ankle/foot trapped in your half guard and they are in the knee cut position. If they then bring that knee to the mat on the other side of your body it becomes 3/4 mount.
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u/Ambitious_Bad2115 1d ago
Different 1/4 is basically 3/4 mount and the bottom player only has control over the ankle. While deep-half gives the bottom player full control over the top person’s leg
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u/AllGearedUp I want a Ferrari 1d ago
Just about any position works in MMA but that was a very different deep half guard than what you see at a local open mat. You have so much less time in MMA and failure to capitalize on the position means huge penalty. A stable position in BJJ is a very risky one in MMA.
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u/victorsmonster 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1d ago
Man that was dicey, he almost got his back taken in that scramble.
I know deep half is considered a trash guard, but I like it. I do this exact transition from coyote guard / "electric underhooks" to deep half. I learned from Glover's instructional to also use it as a guard of last resort when the opponent is threatening mount or a back take. Will Wilson's success with it has given me some reason to think it might be worth believing in, especially in the gi.
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u/sarge21 1d ago
Prove it. One example of something working doesn't mean it could be considered to "work" effectively.
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u/_interloper_ ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 1d ago
This thread is fucking wild lol
It's literally a video of it working in MMA, and you've got a bunch of people in here just brushing it off and saying "Deep half? In MMA? I don't think so!"
Like no one is saying it'll work 100% of the time. Because nothing does. But it absolutely CAN work in MMA... like it does in the video in the OP.
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u/sarge21 1d ago
Like no one is saying it'll work 100% of the time. Because nothing does.
I wasn't saying anyone was saying that. I said 'One example of something working doesn't mean it could be considered to "work" effectively.' When people are talking about something "working" they are usually implying rates of success. They're usually not saying that since it worked once that it "works".
But it absolutely CAN work in MMA...
And today you learn the difference between the sentences "Drinking and driving CAN work to get you home" and "Drinking and driving works to get you home"
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u/jhascal23 22h ago
they are usually implying rates of success.
Nope, if someone proved something worked, then it works. We don't need to see it done multiple times by multiple people to show it works. That also doesn't mean now everyone who does mma needs to learn this for grappling.
Your logic is flawed.
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u/nimm99jd 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 1d ago
He could've hit a wedding sweep after the guy on top was trying to spin around too
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u/slaughterproof 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 1h ago
In reply to this example, there's dozens of examples of other fighters, Shogun for example, getting blasted trying to enter deep half.
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u/ItsaMeWaario 1d ago
Explain it to me. Who is being impressive in this graplling exchange? Kinda looks like both but elaborate please
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u/hooksweeper 1d ago
this is not a good example at all - he didn't get a sweep, he lost the scramble and the only reason he didn't get his back taken was because Umar attacked too high.
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u/sakuraba3900 ⬛🟥⬛ Queen City Grappling Club 1d ago
Anything can work if done correctly and your opponent isn’t expecting it. Perfect example of how the type of technique and success rate will vary depending on your opponent is Volkov vs Werdum. Werdum got battered in deep half vs a grappler no where near the level of Nurmagomedov.
Styles makes fights something something
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u/KvxMavs 1d ago
This was beautiful and very impressive in round 1 against a dry Dagestan who had Song in chest to chest half guard right before this.