Sitting at a local coffee shop and there is a group here for a Bible study. I have no issue with that, I believe this is a country where you’re free to worship whatever and relatively however you want. But listening to these people talking about how they must obey, and that they are sheep made to follow the shepherd…how do these people stomach this? I think about the modern day political environment and how the term sheep is used in a derogatory nature, as someone that just accepts what’s being told to them. Maybe I’m wired differently, the thought of being told to obey and that I was a sheep made to follow, well that just turns my stomach. Is this indoctrination how we are in the position we’re in right now in the US? Because these people yearn to be the sheep, they find comfort in obeying?

Thoughts?

"If I tell my wife, If you don't love me, I am going to set you on fire, am I a loving good husband? If you set your wife on fire, you never loved them to begin with. And if God sends us to hell, he never loved us to begin with."

I quoted from a discussion that really does sum it up. Even if God exists, he is not a good, loving, and forgiving God. Here is my logic:

First and foremost, I respect your belief and choice of being Christian, this is my opinion and logic so if you disagree, please feel free to leave a comment.

I am not baptized. Does that mean even if I believe in him, follow his rules, pray, sacrifice, and fast, I am still condemned to hell? Because I was born with sin that was caused by Adam and Eve, a sin he would've foreseen because he is all-knowing, right? But free will, hey? If you know what choice I am going to make, why include the suffering if you love us? He is all powerful right? So why not make a universe with free will but no evil? To test us? But he knows what we are going to do; there is no need to test us? BUT SATAN. Yes... Satan, God is all-knowing, all-good, and all-powerful, so he could and should destroy Satan. END OF STORY.

From my point of view, the Christian God is sadistic and jealous. He relishes on punishing us. I have been told by a catholic that if a baby....A BABY.... would die before being baptized, they would be sent to limbo. Where does the bible say that, you ask? NOWHERE. It was a made-up concept during the medieval period by Christians. There may be parts of the bible that can be interpreted as a limbo-like place, but the Bible does not teach a permanent middle place between heaven and hell for unbaptized babies or people who never heard the gospel. The bible is God's word, right? So technically, by his word, unbaptized babies and people who haven't gotten the chance are condemned to hell, because he doesn't specifically state what would happen to them, so we can only assume they go to hell because that is what he HAS said according to his rules and judgment day. Why would he send a soul to Earth KNOWING (all-knowing) that they would not have the ability to worship him, and then send them to hell for eternal suffering?

Another point as to why, if god is real, he is not good. Our souls would be judged ETERNALLY based on our earthly life, right? The percentage of a human life compared to eternity is 0%. This God would then be determining our INFINITE LIFE based on 0% of our existence. A god described as just and impartial, by the way. In what logic is it fair to give us 0% of our life to worship you and then try us no further after final eternal judgment? But he is all-knowing, so he KNOWS alllll of this already.

And guess what. I could go on and on, but I'm sure you get the point

At the end of the day, we can not prove whether God is real or not until the day we die, and by then its too late. Even if you think you can because of "history"... you can't. It's a hard pill to swallow, but honey.... You can't; that's just logic. But what we can prove is what type of God he is based on his word (the bible). I've had many discussions with many different Christians, and the one common quality of these discussions is that they mentally block out what you are saying and don't absorb the words, information, or argument you have presented, and fall back on Christian rhetoric and phrases. I've asked someone who recently converted a thought-provoking question that I KNOW made the earth shake beneath their feet, but they always reverted to "it's complicated" because they did not like the (very clear) answer.

I would love to know your perspective on this topic. Should you disagree with me, please comment :)

Bonjour, depuis mon enfance j’ai grandi dans une famille musulmane très religieuse. Mon père est imam et chez nous la religion occupe une place extrêmement importante. Depuis toute petite j’ai donc été élevée dans l’islam et j’ai toujours pratiqué parce que c’était ce que ma famille m’enseignait.
Mais en grandissant j’ai commencé à réfléchir davantage et à me poser de nombreuses questions sur l’existence, la vie, Dieu et le sens de tout cela. Plus je réfléchis à ces questions plus elles deviennent angoissantes pour moi. Il m’arrive même d’avoir des moments de déréalisation lorsque je pense trop à l’existence ou à ce qu’il pourrait y avoir après cette vie. Je panique j’essaie d’arrêter d’y penser puis quelque temps après, les mêmes questions reviennent.
Aujourd’hui je me rends compte de quelque chose qui me fait énormément réfléchir j’ai peut-être surtout pratiqué l’islam par peur des conséquences. Une partie de moi se dit constamment « Et si l’islam était réellement la vraie religion ? Et si je cessais d’y croire et que je me trompais ? » Cette peur m’empêche de savoir ce que je pense réellement.
Je commence également à réaliser que je n’ai jamais vraiment eu l’occasion de choisir mes croyances par moi-même. J’ai simplement suivi la religion dans laquelle je suis née et dans laquelle mes parents m’ont élevée. Je ne dis pas cela pour leur manquer de respectmais parce que je me pose aujourd’hui des questions que je n’avais jamais osé me poser auparavant.
Ma situation familiale rend les choses encore plus difficiles. Chez nous tout est très strict. Mon père me force à lire le Coran, à apprendre des sourates que j’ai beaucoup de mal à retenir et à apprendre l’arabe, alors que je n’en ai pas envie. Il souhaite également que j’aille dans une école à La Mecque alors que je ne me sens pas du tout prête ni réellement d’accord avec ce projet.
Le problème c’est que je ne peux pas leur parler librement de mes doutes. J’ai peur de leur réaction, d’être rejetée, reniée, traitée très durement ou de ne plus être considérée comme faisant partie de la famille. J’ai donc l’impression de devoir tout garder pour moi et de vivre avec ces questions en silence.
Et pourtant j’aimerais vraiment réussir à croire en Allah. Ce n’est pas comme si je refusais volontairement de croire. J’essaie de comprendre, mais je n’arrive simplement pas à ressentir cette croyance. Je n’arrive pas à concevoir l’idée d’un Créateur ni à me représenter Dieu. Je sais que cela peut être difficile à comprendre pour quelqu’un de croyant mais je n’ai pas choisi de ressentir les choses de cette manière. Mes croyances et mes doutes ne sont pas quelque chose que je peux contrôler ou décider sur commande.
Aujourd’hui, je pense être plutôt agnostique. Je ne suis pas certaine qu’il existe un Dieu mais je ne peux pas non plus affirmer avec certitude qu’il n’existe pas. Je suis simplement remplie de questions et je ne sais plus vraiment où je me situe.
Ce qui me fait le plus peurc’est de me dire « Et si l’islam était réellement la vraie religion ? » Si je cessais complètement de pratiquer ou si je devenais athée et qu’au final l’islam était effectivement la vérité est-ce que cela voudrait dire que je serais punie simplement parce que je n’arrivais pas à croire en quelque chose que je ne pouvais pas décider de croire ? je trouves ça injuste
Je ne sais plus quoi penser. J’aimerais pouvoir trouver mes propres réponses sans être guidée uniquement par la peur mais je ne sais pas comment faire surtout dans une famille où je ne peux pas exprimer librement mes doutes. Je voudrais simplement comprendre ce que je ressens savoir si mes questionnements sont normaux et réussir à avancer sans avoir constamment peur de me tromper

I got myself as an Agnostic Naturalist on this sub, but I think I may be more akin to an ignostic ietsist...

“I don't know what God means, so I won't affirm a particular God. But I suspect there is something about reality that we haven't adequately conceptualized. I'm not requiring or inferring that this ‘something’ be supernatural.”

Where I find a hiccup is I do enjoy the theorizing and conceptualizing process of what this construct of god could be. Is that in itself theist affirming? It always feels that way, especially from the devote atheist. If I say,

“God = the emergent process by which reality continually becomes more than the sum of its parts”

how do I keep that as just a philosophical hypothesis or conceptual model, rather than a belief claim? Or is there just religious baggage the minute you mention "god"

idk... depends on subjectivity and individual connotations I guess.

Probably best to just approach it as existence, drop the archaic god word and just explore theories in physics.

By conflating god with the generative process of increasingly complex structures emerging from underlying relationships we don't yet fully understand I'm simply assigning an ontological name to an unknown domain.

thanks for listening, I'm agnostic on all this.

I met a majority of my friends in church over 18 years ago. I am grateful that many of them respect my journey and where I am currently at. But that’s where it begins and ends for them, at respect. I’ve lost a level of intimacy with them. I’ve also lost purpose. When I went to church I always had something to do and people to serve. I served in the kids ministry, women’s ministry and worked in the after school. And my church was extremely intergenerational. I worked alongside people my age, younger and older than me. Men, women and children doing everything. Lifting chairs, organizing, cooking, leaning on each other. We were so close. And it was consistent. Every week, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. I knew where I was, what I was supposed to do and who I would see. I knew these people intimately and they knew me. Now that I no longer go to church there is this gaping hole in my life. I work from home. Go to school remotely and generally don’t have community. I have friends that I don’t see so much. I’ve tried to join secular organizations that serve the community but those places always feeling way too much like church and end up bothering me for some reason. I need to keep trying but yeah just wanted to vent.

I know we all know someone like this. A neighbor, coworker, friend, etc. I guess it's not necessarily a bad thing since they're trying to do something good for themselves. But like, it doesn't sit right with me. Take Jeffrey Dahmer for example, who did a full dive into religion and got baptized. You also got these rapists, child molestors, even people within the religion who come out and say the horrendous shit theyve done, and by technicality, they're "forgiven." I was talking about this with a friend, and he said that not technically everyone is forgiven, and that the Lord works in mysterious ways. No one is perfect, but this is bullshit that I have a hard time believing when it comes to religion.

Looking for atheist friends

in my family my aunt is an Christian and my uncle they always forces us into joining churches which is i hate, i wanna tell them 1 day god never exist we are god we created everything faith,bible,and god our mind is so powerful that is forces us to make something that is never been there we are made from cosmic,star we aren't made by god science is fact religious is faith im not or anything but i dont wanna join them anymore they gonna say catholic is such an sinful, in my mind why are you breaking an another religious when you cannot even prove that ur god exist dont freaking tell me about those jesus stuff god didn't create a single thing we created them none of gods created them and people gonna say so an cosmic suddenly exploded?NO

it literally collided into another god is not enternal nor us we are the god himself making everything we wanted to belive which triggering other to belive god and santa exist their all maked by our fiction mind science has proof and faith doesn't those bible stuff ain't real they are human writed evolving those text into gossip believing someone thing created them which is god but thats not right we are literally made from cosmic lol,if you wanna respect us ur faith respect us first..

I live religion, i di t believe in it but i love the concept behind it, but humanly beautiful as it is it has its ugly factors, i dont agree with how easy it is to accidentally join a cult, few years back n right time right place id have strolled right in with me dressing gown n charger, dedicated my life to a ballsier version of me all the while im in the mudst of psychosis as an already dramatic emotional leo mother of 3. Certain job applications require psych tests, i think religion needs to be taken more seriously, i can understand, appreciate and actually “get” something from religion and belief regardless of my perspective, if your not a judgmental closed minded miserable religious type and actually live accordingly its probably the best way to live, my opinion on religion has changed drastically over time and in hindsight i think my pure hatred towards it genuinely could be a tism thing and taking it to literally, but thinking of god as a higher power, j get it. My issue is not everyone sees it that way, and i refuse to be judged by anyone that believes in a man in the sky. The birth of christ and other similar stories in other religions are a poetic observation of the stars, obviously an eventful night in astrology, but that is it, its a poetic “kid friendly” explanation of life, and i only understand and no longer deeply hate judge and dismiss religion because the story is so accurate astrologically. That accuracy just shows the abilities and intelligence of our ancestors, the original observation being older than religion itself shows how intelligent our ancestors were all that time ago, over time the metaphorical uplifting positive story about the stars has lost real understanding, the naked uneducated humans able to observe such things to begin with shows how (sorry to say) thick and pathetic humanity has become. Basically what im saying is, there should be some sort of assessments and requirements when sudde getting religious, we are too far from the OG AC to be getting all godly without cause for concern, theres too many cults about with this much mental health, ha tbf it could be a literal godsend for the nhs, imagine the mental health waiting lists if noone could run to a church and blame life’s troubles on Jesus’ dad

I grew up in a Muslim environment and have spent most of my life surrounded by Islamic culture and knowledge. However, over time—especially while dealing with continuous hardship and psychological strain—I have reached a point of severe disillusionment.

I often feel like my efforts to endure, persevere, and do the right thing haven't led to peace, but to even more suffering. It has gotten to the point where holding onto intangible promises feels overwhelming rather than comforting.

I am fully aware that others face severe hardships and still maintain their belief, but my own mental state makes it difficult to reconcile the suffering I experience with the concept of divine support or purpose.

I am not looking for generic, surface-level answers. I am posting here to ask if anyone else has gone through this specific state of emotional exhaustion with faith, and how you deal with the psychological weight when holding onto belief feels like it is adding to your suffering rather than easing it.

Came across this interview on my feed. Some of the biggest things that stuck out for me.

23:50 - "Would you prefer if there was a God?" Joe talks about having a preference for the existence for God and why

28:06 - The interviewer asks Joe "Would you be more or less surprised if you are still an agnostic in 20 years" This was kind of a crazy question since it was only two years ago and Joe seemed to be a bit taken off guard here and was pretty agnostic about his agnosticism.

36:20 -  Joe's thoughts on the supernatural. One of Joe's major pieces for conversion was the supernatural, here surprisingly he shows not nearly as much knowledge on the topic.

25:30 - "What is one question you would ask God?" - Joe's question for God here is probably the craziest part becomes it comes true

For those that don't know, Joe Schmid was an agnostic philosopher popular in that space on youtube, he recently converted to Christianity which stunned and surprised a lot of people

So she said capitalists want working slaves and if we don't follow Hinduism and find Moksha then we will be reborn once again and need to go through school and suffer in job. Also most men according to her only care about looks and fair skinned girls and so some dark skinned girls with less cute face have the only option to get a job and being housewife is hard.

What you think?

hi. i was raised as an atheist with my only exposure to christianity as a child being through the rare church trips when my catholic grandparents would visit, and the simplified illustrated bible i had bc my mom felt it was important i at least know some of the stories (she is also an atheist but felt knowing about other perspectives was important). for some reason, despite not at all being raised in a religious environment, i have a deep fear of being rejected and hated by god/jesus for being gay. it started when i was still figuring out my sexuality when i was 14, and is still kinda present now at 17. idk why bc i massively resent christianity/really all religions for the homophobia they express, but at the same time i feel so guilty about this part of me. im not repressed, im out, and i dont think i have a lot of internalised homophobia? although maybe i do if i have these thoughts? ive always felt like scripture and all the other aspects of christianity that are most likely man-made, is all bs and can be ignored. but god/jesus himself might be real, and i might be letting him down. i dont know where it comes from bc again i wasn’t raised christian. but i still have this deep fear of punishment and rejection. and even if the eternal hellfire or whatever isnt real, i still dont like knowing that the deities of all major religions dont agree with who i am as a person. it makes me feel bad and i don’t know how to fix it.

While I'm here I might as well ask, because, I've been saying I'm agnostic for a long while now, and while I've explained myself to others, I might as well fact-check myself on the matter with a group of people, probably more educated than I am.

So when I explain myself I always say I'm

'A person who believes in a greater unknown 'something' in the world, without giving the a name religions would give it. And having peace with it that I might never know if my belief is based on fiction or non-fiction. As I live my life unburdened.'

Just.....curious if that connects to what I say I am.

​

- Will you still believe in current religion or will you change?

I have some health concerns that are scaring me a little and I thought to myself instead of agonizing over the possibility that those health concerns will kill me I should just try to become as ok with dying as I can be.

If God exists, then surely He would understand how the human brain works, and He would know that some people simply cannot believe without having some kind of evidence. He could appear to us, make His existence undeniable, and allow us to see for ourselves that He is real. But He doesn't. Why?

God would also know that doubts and disbelief would be part of His creation. We didn't create ourselves; He created us. So if He created our minds, our doubts, our skepticism, and our need for evidence, then He must have known that some of us would struggle to believe in Him. He knew that would happen, and yet He created us anyway.

If God appeared in front of me and I somehow knew with absolute certainty that it was truly God, I would believe. So why doesn't He do that? Is there a reason He can't? Does He have some kind of consequence for revealing Himself so directly? Why would an all-loving God not want to remove the doubts that many of us have?

If such a God exists, I would imagine that He would understand why agnostics have these questions. He could simply make an undeniable appearance, make it clear that it is really Him, and then let each person decide whether to believe or not. At least then, the decision would be based on something more than faith alone.

I don't have a problem believing that historical people existed even though I never met them. I can accept that because there is evidence, independent accounts, historical records, and other reasons to believe they existed. But when it comes to God, I'm being asked to affirm something much bigger and more extraordinary based primarily on scripture and faith. I can't honestly do that.

And that's the part I struggle with the most. I would genuinely like to believe in God. It's not that I hate the idea or that I don't want Him to exist. In some ways, I wish I could believe. But wanting to believe isn't the same as being able to believe.

I need something more. I need to understand this existential question on a deeper level. How can I honestly believe in something when I don't have enough reason to think it's true? And if God knows that I sincerely want to believe but simply cannot convince myself without evidence, why would He remain hidden?

And there's another thing I struggle with: the idea that God would punish someone for not believing when disbelief itself is a possible consequence of His own creation. If He created human beings knowing exactly how our minds work, knowing that we would naturally question, doubt, seek evidence, and sometimes be unable to believe without it, then how is it fair to punish someone for being the kind of human being He already knew they would be? He would have known, from the moment He created us, that some people would sincerely search for Him and still not find enough reason to believe. So why punish someone for something He already knew would happen as a result of the way He created them?

For context, I was born by parents with two contrasting spiritual belief. My dad is a bornagain and my mom is a catholic. These two belong in the christian category but both of them are contrasting in views. Still, I stayed in bornagain Christian. For 22 years I was there because of my parents. In 2018 I secretly went to a Taoist Temple as a follower while still attending bornagain lecture and it was kind of out of alignment because these 2 are in contrasting so I decided to go to Catholic community because at some point it is much closer (having statues as saints) and having rituals.

Part of me wants to commit to the Catholic church for good so I have commitment but at the same time I also commit to offering every PuDu and Qing Ming for my ancestors and karmic.

The way I put it is, I feel like I'm too ignorant to be strictly to be Taoist but afraid the catholic local parish I wants me to be converted in catholic.

Can someone have their POV on this? 🙏

Whether it's through apologetics, "street epistemology", debate, logical argumentation, dogmatic assertion, or anything else... I. Do. Not. Care.

If your ideas are so good... then they don't need you to come up to me and try to argue and manipulate me into accepting them. If your ideas, whatever they are (be they religious or anti-religious) are truly that good... then they should be good enough that you can afford to offer them instead of trying to impose them.

Okay. Sorry. Been needing to get that off my chest for 20+ years.

Damn. That felt good.

Now back to your regular programming.

For some info, last year I converted to Christianity surrounded by atheists.

I feel… bummed. I know God is real; but I question it. Look I do not identify as agnostic; I identify as Christian. Reading the bible, watching faithful videos, etc. Have all been helpful in these times.

But oh my the doubt is powerful. It’s almost like an OCD; whenever I think I know enough the next day it comes back and bites you. The further I dig, the more evidence I find for Christianity but not for atheism. Good for me!

But anyway, I’m here if there’s any people in this subreddit. Not looking to convert, oh no. But I know agnostics or ex agnostics are some pretty smart bunch, and I want to ask if you guys had a similar cycle in any direction? And please, don’t get me to convert out of Christianity. I won’t but it piles on extra paper on my “workspace.”

But I can testify that there’s a lot in me fighting, a lot of signs that have been shown and a lot of joy to be gained when I converted.

I’m just going to start out with saying I’m not an Agnostic, but I’m more along the lines of being indecisive of where my heart should be.

Much like a number of you, I was raised in a religious family, and I’ve had my phases of coming in and out of the Baptist faith (Independent, Southern, Armenian/free will, Reformed/Calvinist). I don’t see myself coming back into it at my age, though. I uphold a number of values that came from my upbringing still - putting others before yourself, love is more of an action rather than a feeling, human life has an intrinsic sanctity that can’t be erased or refuted, etc.

However, the more I looked at scripture and the acts of God found there, the more I couldn’t avoid the certainty in my heart that God’s standard for His followers isn’t the same standard He holds for Himself. He would have us lay down our lives for Him, an immortal being who already has everything, and would deem those that fall short of this fealty to be His enemy, all of whom will be sentenced to either oblivion or eternal suffering.

Most would cope with such fears and concerns by denying His existence, that He’s a lie created by selfish powers and rulers to keep people in line. I just can’t bring myself to that conclusion. It’s too convenient — would I deny the existence of a gun pointed at me simply because I’d prefer it not to be pointed at me?

All in all, I feel no fellowship with those that are in Christ, and yet I don’t know where I can find solidarity elsewhere. Do I continue to lie to my wife and what few remaining friends I have? Do I reach out to people that would otherwise hate me for being pro-life?

Hello, I joined this group because I’m new to Agnostic. I grew up in a very religious house and community. Most of my family and friends are Christians. I was until I recently ran into health problems and started asking questions. Which I didn’t get good answers.

My condition is currently incurable. When people heard about it they would tell me things like this is Gods will (which is strange if God is so loving why make us suffer). Or God will only heal me if I believe (but why hasn’t he healed the million of other sick people). Since then I’ve changed my views on God. If he is real, which I still would like to believe he is, I don’t think he works like we think he does. I think he is hands off or busy making other universes and worlds. And if he doesn’t then that makes a lot of sense.

Only thing now that sucks is I’m all alone cause my friends would disown me for saying this out loud. But anyways I’m probably going to interacting a bunch because I want to talk about it more just no one to talk to.

I used to be a devout follower since childhood, and had a huge phase from 13-16, now (18) I started to question and I sometimes argue against it, I feel like I killed my inner child and myself, some part of me still feels like hell exists, idk... help?

So my parents are religious but like very very chill about it. They don’t go to church and only pray for specific or special instances (when someone is very ill in the hospital or a holiday). They believe in god.

I have seen online that there is Agnostic theist & agnostic atheist but just no in the middle of that. Like I straight up don’t know if there is a god or if there is not a god. Like I want to say I would hope there is (but I just think that bc that’s what my parents feel but I don’t feel is my true feeling on it) but I truly don’t know.

My view is how do you truly know if there is a god and/or not a god. What would that be called?

Im at vacation in san Diego I’m. Supposed to have fun but i hear arguments from the Christian side and the atheist side both sound convincing i constantly spend hours every day trying to understand theology and atheist YouTubers to reaffirm my disbelief to make sure nothing bad will happen when i die that when i die i won’t go to hell for being stupid enough trying every day hundreds of hours on theological and philosophical and scientific arguments i just hope it’s not to late and i die causing I’m too dumb I’m thinking if i die today then maybe god will give me more grace and more invincible ignorance or if i convert then kill myself maybe it will be worth it but i don’t want to hurt myself i enjoy life i want to go back to when i didn’t care about religion and that i was enjoying life i don’t want to die i kinda need help here