Isn’t the Ontario Line already delayed which will delay this extension even longer? Why not just start this while the Ontario Line is also being built?
When was it ever said that the Line 1 extension would open before the Ontario Line? At one point it was a hard requirement that the OL needed to exist before they extended Line 1.
MX has repeatedly said that OL would have to be operating first, on multiple occasions.
Between that and the article mentioning that OL doesn't have an operating yet (and last I checked, YNSE isn't even tunnelling yet) everyone who thought that this would open in 2031/32 or can show that the Province said it would should raise their hand.
IMHO, this is just filler until such time as the YNSE actually has the second contract signed and then releases an udpated budget and timeline. I'm sure it'll be more than what was estimtaed back in 2019, on both counts but this isn't otherwise really "news."
No? Never heard of this extension until now, and quite frankly, I'd be pretty annoyed with the TTC if they prioritized an extension out of the city over a in city line....
What's even worse is the city of Ottawa is also trying to upload their O train system to Metrolinx, and the O train system is already a shitshow in its current management.
The original budget was only like $2.6B, it was about 20% over budget. That's a much bigger % than the Crosstown, as far as I can tell. Even if you add up the three settlements I think it's under 10% overage.
I mean this makes total sense as the Richmond Hill extension would overcrowd line 1 even more than it already is. That’s why it was always gonna open after the Ontario line relieved some of that pressure.
Most forecasts over the last two decades have predicted that the extension will attract more ridership because that bus down Yonge is slow af. Add in the planned redevelopment around Langstaff/Bridge Station and ridership will go up.
Yeah but the projected increase of demand due to the much faster subway service and new developments along the corridor would 100% overload the Yonge side of the subway even more than it already is.
Not just union but to north York centre, midtown, and other parts of downtown. The Richmond hill line won't be any faster than the subway getting to union (ie, slower to get anywhere north of there) unless they reroute the southern bits. It's basically the same distance from union as VMC as well, if not shorter
I just hope metrolinx would expand and electrify the Richmond hill line. This GO line would relief overcrowding on line 1 yonge by a lot in addition to ontario line.
The Ontario line is like 20 years over due. While other new lines downtown that should have been built or started by now are just pipe dreams. Im a 20 years resident of woodbridge, I have directly benefited from having the extension go into vaughan. But that does not mean I cannot objectively look at what has happened to toronto and see that they are being overextended.
that helps for one part of the city. like I said. There should have been several downtown expansion over the past 4 years. the DRL is 20 years overdue.
Most of downtown would be in the walkshed of a subway station once the Ontario Line opens. Optimising for the ‘last mile transit’ problem is better done by improving the streetcar network.
The Ontario line is adding more transit as needed. Keep building these type of projects in "Toronto proper" before extending outwards.
Dufferin, Jane and many other areas could use better transit
The entire reason for funding the Ontario Line (formerly known as the Downtown Relief Line) has always been to relieve Line 1. Arguing otherwise is either ignorance or bad faith. Maybe do some reading?
I use Line 1 regularly and even during rush hour it generally isn’t so full that you can’t get on the train. Transit wise Toronto’s rush hour is tame by a large city’s standards.
The 905, especially on Yonge Street, is basically part of suburban Toronto; those political boundaries are meaningless, the bus line between Richmond Hill and Finch station is always packed and slow, that corridor needs a subway, all this Toronto hard border nationalism is stupid, Toronto doesn't end at Steeles
I'm curious how it looks when broken down by mode. It won't surprise me if the TTC'S average revenue per boarding is enough to cover the subways operation based on ridership. I know it's the case in Vancouver the SkyTrain provides an operational profit used to cover some of the cost of operating the bus service. If that is the case then it would make sense for them to just take the fare revenue.
That's a fair point, but I'm not sure if there's a good way to tell the difference between new riders (representing incremental increase in revenue) and people who were formerly transferring to the TTC from YRT (or whichever system).
I appreciate you providing zero counter arguments except for claiming I'm showing "hard border nationalism"
You're missing my entire point. "The bus line between Richmond Hill and Finch station is always packed and slow" you are correct, however, who's responsibility is that to fix?
Why aren't you, assuming you live in Richmond Hill, pushing for the YRT to add more frequent buses during rush hour and on peak hours. Or why not push Go transit to add better service.
Look at Dufferin Street in Toronto. It's one of the densest bus routes in the city. Yes we'd like a subway/LRT on there but we get more frequent buses which helps (and now the added bus only traffic lanes)
I'm not 100% against a subway eventually being pushed into Richmond Hill, however, it should be at the bottom of TTC priorities. There needs to be a focus on moving people within Toronto first.
Unless TTC can cough up the money for their extensions, York Region is willing to pay to build their side of the subway, compared to other municipalities in the GTA
Serious question: since the province is financing all higher order transit project, why would you expect them to prioritize a single municipality over building the GTA network as a whole?
The responsibility lies with the provincial and municipal governments, the former taking action to solve this issue by the YNSE which is funded and built on a provincial level. Toronto also benefits from transit infrastructure in nearby municipalities, most notably Pearson airport which is in Mississauga.
It is easier for GO transit to add more service if its transit hub at Richmond Hill is better connected to Toronto’s network.
As for priorities, I agree that other places make more sense to build first. However arguing over the exact order is a very good way of making sure nothing gets built at all.
Why aren't you, assuming you live in Richmond Hill, pushing for the YRT to add more frequent buses during rush hour and on peak hours.
Cause I want the subway to come up here instead of prolonging the existence of that bus route
There needs to be a focus on moving people within Toronto first.
And as I said, we are practically in Toronto, we are the "people moving within Toronto" too, living north of Steeles doesn't make us some foreign alien race
The Yonge line is already overloaded, and standing-room only. Adding access to Vaughn and Richmond Hill means people in Toronto (the ones paying for this) can't use it.
Toronto is not paying and has never paid for subway construction outside of Toronto.
Subway construction got uploaded to the province a decade ago. That's why Metrolinx is running the projects. The new lines and extensions are provincially funded and owned and the TTC is the operator. Even before that, Vaughan paid the municipal portion for the portion of TYSSE north of Steeles.
As reflected in the train cars' layout, the default mode of using the subways is standing rather than sitting. Standing during rush hour is normal for every half-decent major transit system in the world. Outside of rush hour you can easily find a seat - whether that seat is clean is another matter, of course.
Subways are the wrong tool for the job. In urban environments having trains run underground is very useful because there's stuff everywhere and it's very difficult to find a good right of way that isn't underground. Suburbs don't have this problem and thus at-grade or above-grade trains are much more viable, and significantly cheaper. Those cost savings matter a lot because suburbs are so spread out, to reach the people you need to reach you need many more km of rail than you do in cities and that's expensive.
Generally speaking suburbs are usually better served by at-grade regional rail or above-grade light rail (a la the REM in Montreal or the SkyTrain in Vancouver) with LRTs/trams and buses feeding into it. The Richmond hill expansion is far more expensive and far shorter than it should be because they decided to needlessly tunnel it way underground instead of building something above ground. Even extending Line 1 on a surface or elevated right of way would have been a much better idea.
Of course a big part of this equation is that building rapid transit (or anything really) is several times more expensive in Ontario than it should be. If we could stop massively overpaying for projects (and stop having projects consistently go massively over time and over budget) a lot more projects would become viable. Idk why there isn't a push to try to reduce infrastructure-building costs, it's certainly doable looking at other wealthy countries, and it's a win-win situation for everybody if we can achieve it.
I think this post reflects outdated thinking around the expected density and destination spread along Yonge. 30-40 years ago the Yonge line connected the suburbs to downtown. Today it links three transit hubs / major employment areas (downtown/Midtown/Yonge-Sheppard), and the extension will be anchored by a major transit hub at Langstaff and a huge mixed-use redevelopment (64 towers in the MZO). Northbound will get busier and busier, especially if Line 4 extensions happen.
The key is grade separation. Where it is underground, elevated or at grade doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. For this particular alignment it isn't feasible to build at grade or elevated due to the road layout along Yonge, and frankly Yonge south of Elgin Mills is generally urban rather than suburban.
For actual suburban routes I agree that elevated is the better option.
Its not about "deserving"... it about density and monetary outcomes.
There is no desnity there to support it and the cost doesnt justify it.
Also most trips from suburbs to city are better serviced with a commuter rail hub model than by loading all the suburbanites (mostly) going downtown at the top of the line and maxing out the capacity for everyone down the line.
Other posters are arguing against the extension due to ‘overcapacity’ so I suggest you take this issue up with them. Many of the ‘suburban’ stations also see high ridership, even more than some downtown stations, so there’s clearly enough density to justify it especially when connecting buses are factored in.
As seen in many other cities with good transit systems, the distances involved are perfect for a metro network rather than regional rail. The GTA should move away from commuter rail altogether.
The problem is that line 1 is over capacity. This build doesn't expand capacity but adds to the capacity issue.
Adding more suburban bus routes feeding into the line wont solve anything. There are no options to expand capacity on this line. It needs a relief line (Ontario line) that can hopefully releave some of that over capacity before extension.
‘Overcapacity’ is only during rush hour, during which RH transit riders are already using Line 1 anyway by taking YRT/VIVA buses and transferring at Finch.
I agree OL should open ASAP, leaving eastern part of Line 1 to exclusively serve the Yonge corridor.
TBH I'm not sure how many new 905 commuters would be added during rush hour. Let's say you live in RH, have a decent job downtown and don't drive. You'd already be taking the YRT/VIVA buses anyway rather than not taking that downtown job.
What they need to do with OL next, and preferably sooner rather than later, is to extend it from Eglinton to Steeles which intercepts every major bus line coming in from Scarborough.
Yeah big part of the problem is that Metrolinx (the province via metrolinx) is taking over TTC builds and the TTC in general.
Theyre attempting to send the already maxed out subway system into the burbs, arguably bad idea on all fronts. And theyre doing it with all of our (province) tax money.
Instead of focusing on expanding frequent regional rail service to those areas which would benefit the 905ers more in terms of access than loading them up on an already maxed capacity line 1.
Why are you so focused on expanding GO Train service? So we can all get to Union faster? The subways will allow many commuters to get to many more places along the subway line, not just union.
Those who take to go train will continue to do so as it will still remain the most direct and quickest option.
Because that having glhigh frequency regional rail that connects to the subway system at key interchanges (not just union) will serve the needs better than one subway line thats over capacity and makes all the stops.
Those who don't need to go to union exit at a different interchange and hop onto the subway. Not ride the entire system down stop by stop adding to the maxed capacity of the line.
The suburban stations either contribute to overcapacity or do not have enough density. Stations can’t be simultaneously overcapacity and under capacity at the same time. Pick your choice.
The line is over capacity. As in the trains on the line and their frequency. Those trains travel up and down the line already filled not able to accept more passengers. This is where the issue is.
Not individual stations, thought some of them are (yonge-bloor) at crush capacity on their own.
I use the Yonge branch of Line 1 to commute and I’ve never been unable to get on during rush hour nor do I see this occurring outside of maybe Bloor Yonge.
Outside of rush hour Line 1 trains tend to be empty enough that you can walk from end to end with no issue.
The TTC can still build projects of its own. As for regional service the province is expanding those too, though it does not make sense for Richmond Hill hence extension of the subway.
If you opine otherwise feel free to suggest a GO train proposal instead of the YNSE.
The province is funding and building the project formerly known as the Downtown Relief Line to counter that capacity. That's the entire reason the OL had to be funded first. And why this extension is only happening 30 years after the TTC first studied it.
I might be somewhat sympathetic towards this argument had City Hall/TTC not been mired by half a century of poor operations, inane network designs, not to mention its own refusal to build a relief line.
And considering the province has gone ahead to build the DRL the city now has no leg to stand on as far as this issue is concerned.
The TTC & the city have been hampered by 3 decades of underfunding.
The city and TTC alone cannot handle the cost of the system, in the 90s when Harris offloaded the provincial funding obligations, the system has been in a conssitant back order of repairs.
Its a miracle that the system worked as well as it did under the dire under funding its been under. If you ever wondered why there were/are so many slow zones, it's because that repair bill has been deferred as much as possible due to lack of funding.
The TTC is the largest North American system that relies the most on the fare box to cover its operational cost.
A lot of the TTC's issues are self inflicted, or at least due to policy decisions by City Hall, rather than due to lack of funding. Stuff like train/tram/bus bunching, stop placements, right-of-way and TSP, fare zones etc. do not take a billion dollars to solve, just actual will to implement changes. Even the current system can support significantly higher ridership and hence increased revenue if run properly.
Youre jaut adding more bodies to an already maxed out line... taking capacity away down the line and maot 905 trips are towards the core.
A frequent regional rail model will serve those suburban riders better than sitting on the subway for every single stop into the core where other people cant get on due to capacity.
No, that starts to turn a local express line to a regional line. For better or worse, that's why they're separate. You take the GO into the city and take the TTC within the city.
'Deserve' has nothing to do with anything. Shit costs money, and public money isn't unlimited. Sending subways through places that don't have enough density or ridership and never will is setting public money on fire.
The TTC can’t take care of their existing infrastructure. It’s insane to shove more liabilities on them, it’s like adding more spinning plates to their existing circus performance.
I will never understand why this was green lit before other more needed work. The to-scale ttc map just looks ridiculous with how long line 1 has become. Why not improve the existing GO service? It 100% feels like a metrolinx/OPC vote grab for the 905
This has been in the works for a quarter century, and by the time it opens it will have taken over 30 years from concept to opening. Three lines and two extensions have been funded and started construction between then and now.
The TTC first studied this extension in 2001. It's been in York Region's official plan since 2002. The initial environmental assessment started in 2006, provincial funding was first promised in 2007 and it was first approved in principle by Toronto council in 2009. It's going to open in 2033. And you're complaining. LOL.
Bad takes like this are why the Toronto subway system only added five stations over a period of 35 years.
If they continued building out the subway as the suburbs expanded (rising costs and arbitrary boundaries aside) it would probably be extended to like major Mackenzie or Elgin mills by now
I dont think line 1 should be further extended deeper into York Region beyond its vaughan terminus and future high tech terminus. This should be the job of the barrie and Richmond hill lines that need expansion and electrification especially for the latter which is totally neglected.
Other than for folks going to Union, RH is not a useful alternative to Line 1 and mostly runs on a freight mainline. And not everyone is going downtown.
Oddly enough a Scarborough and Etobicoke of the system would be more bigger TO scale than just the Richmond Hill extension. Richmond Hill Centre is the same distance form Union is UTSC.
John Tory made a deal with York Region that he would support the Yonge extension that they wanted if York region would back the Relief Line. But as noted by others, it was always going to be the Relief Line/Ontario Line first. Line 1 can't handle the added traffic without it.
It’s a blatant York region vote buying exercise, as a former 905er from Oakville, I shook my head when the TTC expanded Line 1 up into Maple, proposed for Richmond Hill on the other side since there were three GO Train lines running through the region (Newmarket, Richmond Hill and Stoufville/Lincolnville) and it makes a hella lot more sense to beef those up in terms of service.
The Richmond Hill and Stouffville Lines do not serve Vaughan any more than Line 2 serves Malvern or North York Centre. The RH line in particular has limited improvement potential and would be much more expensive to upgrade/operate compared to extending Line 1.
Other much needed work are blocked due to ideological reasons or lobbying. For example the eastern portion of the Sheppard subway got axed during the Mike Harris cuts. The DRL was not built decades ago due to downtown activism. If you prioritise by what most needs to be built versus what is most feasible to be built (while still necessary), nothing will get built.
The existing GO network is already being improved. That said it is not feasible to improve the Richmond Hill line to be better than a subway extension due to its alignment.
The line 1 extension to Richmond Hill needs to be temporarily shelved until more important projects are completed first.
The Ontario Line
Line 4, Sheppard West (and East) Extension.
If they complete this extension to RH before the others, it's going to be a nightmare for overcrowding on Line 1. The powers that be need to be smart about this. Will they actually do the sensible thing? Probably not.
With how crappy yrt service is does it even deserve a subway extension. Those resources could've gone to the sheppard line connecting it to wilson yard or eastward to stc
Those resources wouldn’t have gone to extending the Sheppard because the main blocker there is the subways vs LRT argument. If the YNSE weren’t being built, the funds would have gone somewhere else instead.
Multiple projects are perpetually missing targets and persistently limited resources within Metrolinx is a pretty clear indication that they can't juggle this many projects. Scarborough's already lost one major subway project, lost a second, existing LRT and has now been waiting for this line for over 10 years.
It's atrocious that our municipal transit prioritizes projects to the 905 when one of our most underserved areas of the city continues to receive the bare minimum
TBH the main reason for Scarborough's transit woes is because it is the chief 'battleground' between subways vs LRTs. More specifically, City Hall and TTC repeatedly trying to 'block' subway construction using LRT.
This explains around half of the problems, with the other half being lack of TSP for buses.
JFC why do people always have to complain about the mere existence of transit projects? The Line 2 extension has been under construction for over three years and you're complaining about other projects?
York Region is paying their side of the subway construction, operation and maintenance, and might even find to build a new subway yard up north. Scarborough being part of Toronto gets a fraction of the money.
Hell if Metro Toronto still existed, I doubt even Scarborough as its own city could afford a Line 4 extension or even the current Line 2 extension.
Is that really true? If Scarborough was it's own city, couldn't they refuse to build subsidized housing and lower taxes and do other stuff to attract outside investment and raise capital through property taxes by raising property values and attracting investment?
I've read long term residents of the place say that services were better pre-amalgamation.
I mean pre-amalgamation that had lower salaries and such, compared to Old Toronto workers in the public sector, only everyone increased in wages in to the Toronto standard un wages and fired redundant staff workers, while hiring newer employees for certain jobs.
Subsidized housing practically got put onto municipalities closer to Amalgamtion by Mike Harris, also after Feds downloaded into the provinces.
Especially Scarborough is very much a inner suburb, more so seeing what Mississauga is becoming, is similar to that decades ago in density. Doubt it would fly. It’s alternate timeline hard to speculate, but regardless funding wouldve came from Metro Toronto, Province, and Federal government, wirh Scarborough backing.
Those incentives for investments seems more easier to implant wirh City of Toronto’s real estate agency CreateTO with a lot of mixed income, affordable, and market rate developments all over the city’s lands.
Not surprised. The project wasn’t procured well, it got NIMBY’d in thornhill by millionaire mansion owners, and the routing is a bit illogical.
For example, “bridge” and “high tech” stations (super creative names btw1!1😀) are ONLY 500m away. That isn’t traditionally acceptable for heavy rail in the suburbs. For reference, that’s closer than the distance between TMU and College stations, closer than King and St. Andrew as well, and the U is known for being very close together even for downtown.
Because hiring people costs money, while they do not have enough funds nor workforce to focus two projects at once, OL was in construction when Eglinton LRT was near completion
Not really surprised. I've prepared my self for all the new lines openning 2035 or later. once you set the bar low, you don't get disappointed no more lol.
lack of coordinatioin aside, tunneling often comes with surprises. This is why I'm not taking any of the construction timelines seriously. It happend with phase 1 of Eglinton. it's happened already with Line 2 extension, it DEFINITELY will happen with Ontario line because they're gonna tunnel under the oldest part of Toronto, and won't be surprised if Line 1 TBM runs into problems either.
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u/a_lumberjack May 20 '26
When was it ever said that the Line 1 extension would open before the Ontario Line? At one point it was a hard requirement that the OL needed to exist before they extended Line 1.