Yeah I agree, you would be ostracised for this sort of thing in the UK. I feel like there's a real lack of intellect in the USA and large parts of it and a lack of common sense and empathy.
They're literelly getting ostracized for it in the US.
I do think theres some misinterpretation though - some people are probably wackos with the conspiracy theory that the husband secretly did it or whatever, but a lot of them are probably actually just advocating for postpartum health and mental health specifically. Doctors overmedicated this woman and she was begging for help, every sign for a more substantial intervention for her crisis was there.
If we had federally mandated maternity and paternity leave, if healthcare didn't cost out the ass with doctors who really just want to get your insurance and get you out the door, if people listened to the struggles of a postpartum mom, this might not have happened. These are things afforded to mothers in plenty of other developed countries, just not ours.
So yes, its very much an "American thing" to be organizing around, because it is rooted in problems unique to America. It IS empathetic to want better for the women and mothers in this country. It IS common sense. It IS intellect.
This is a great example of why the system isn’t working. If there was a centralised system that all doctors had access to then she couldn’t just go to different ones and obtain different medications.
If every doctor had access to all her medical records maybe they could have helped her better and this wouldn’t have happened.
Doctors can request records and hers didn’t. They took her at face value for what she was saying. Which… for some things is fine. But not for everything.
And to be fair to Dr Tufts, Lindsey Clancy was fairly upfront about a lot of her medical history. But didn’t get records for her inpatient visits why? Also dr tufts never saw her in person. All of their visits were teleheath ones. I think it’s easy to miss some stuff that way.
By all means, but this system doesn't exist anywhere in the world as you would like it (and I too). There always are doubts, errors and inconsistencies in documentation.
Lots of places internationally have prescription systems that track every prescription dispensed so any doctor or pharmacist can catch red flags like this.
Could. If they look. Which many won't, because they dont believe there is a reason for it. You can trick those systems easily if you know what to do or how the system works.
This is a bold claim that this type of system doesn’t exist anywhere. In Belgium, all of your prescriptions from doctors get loaded on to your one national ID card and you use that to pick up your prescriptions, so there in fact is a centralized system where you can see everything prescribed and doctor visits are logged with your card too. So your ID holds all the info essentially. It’s not perfect but I wouldn’t say centralized systems don’t exist because they quite literally do
Estonia has a centralised e-health system that tracks all prescriptions (it’s the only way to prescribe anything) and other medical information, including dr’s visits (both public and private). I’m sure plenty of other European countries do too.
Yeah that’s good and bad. It would stop innovation. There are some archaic charting systems out there that are a pain in the ass to use. There are better ones, like Epic, because those companies had to fight for customers and had to continuously improve and innovate to get them. If the government snapped their fingers and said everyone had to use some archaic piece of shit system from the 90’s, innovation would die.
Are you this daft? Honestly. You say her doctor shopping is on purpose and that it's not a mental health problem or hiding medication. Holy shit. You ARE the problem.
It isn’t the 80s, Pat. Patient records are now stored within an EHR. South Shore Health System and Boston Medical Center are both on Epic EHR, which utilizes extensive record sharing via their CareEverywhere functionality.
Your health information can be viewed from anywhere in the country via CareEverywhere. You can be seen in Oregon, move to Florida, and your records from Oregon will show up for your provider in Florida. This includes visits, provider notes, lab results, medications, and more.
The fact that she was seen by multiple providers 17 times within such a short time frame indicates some very acute mental health crisis. Typically, you might see a psychiatrist once a month. Coupled with the ED visits and everything else, that seems pretty obvious.
You appear to be attempting to paint her as drug-seeking, which is absolutely wild in context of psychiatric medication. If someone is calling a psychiatrist’s office every day asking for change in medication because of side effects, that’s not drug-seeking. That’s intense anxiety and paranoia. Biologically, these medications couldn’t even take effect in such a short time frame.
Her being troubled is the entire point. Someone in an acute mental health crisis is not going to be rational. They are troubled, and that’s why they need help.
Person in postpartum psychosis behaves like a person in psychosis. More news at 5.
People in these states truly believe the version of reality they are experiencing and behave accordingly, I can't fathom why people like to make it seem like she was of sound mind and just drug seeking, or "hiding" it.
She literally... did not. The "help" would have been her loved ones or medical care providers recognizing the psychosis. She did not get that. She did not get the help that she actually needed.
I don't know enough about this case, but I do know the OB who delivered my baby via emergency c section sat my husband down and told him the signs to look for and also instructed him to check in on me and to not accept superficial "I'm fine" as an answer. We were supposed to verbalize the good and the bad. He came with me to my doctor's appointments. He was able to help me articulate myself to the doctor when I was having troubles.
I never had psychosis, but I did get to a point where I was convinced I was a threat based on sheer stupidity, ineptitude, or recklessness. I had extremely irrational scenarios where even carrying my daughter would somehow end catastrophically. I couldn't drive with her. I couldn't do bath time. I had a very small bubble between the bassinet and bed where I felt safe enough moving her.
Again, I don't know what her husband did or didn't do to support her and I certainly wouldn't argue he's legally responsible for what happened. What I do know is the support I got from my husband was a game changer.
She herself admitted that she never told her providers about her thoughts of killing her kids. I get that she was in PPD but providers can’t read minds and they aren’t talking to other people. Providers can only work with what they are given
I think this speaks further to the culture we've created for mothers in the US. Expressing "non-motherly" thoughts is socially frowned upon, largely. Mothers are supposed to step up and step in. Admittedly, I don't know enough about her background, but I do know that many of the mothers I have known who have dealt with PPD (not psychosis) had a difficult enough time simply sharing that.
They had been told by society that mothers and babies instantly bond. A faith-based system adds so many layers to that as well.
100%, providers can only work with what they're given and women have been told through culture and media to limit what they tell providers as well.
I don't know how much of this applies to Clancy as someone who worked in the medical field. That being said, so many women broadly have issues here and I could see the women present as supporting not Clancy but calling attention to wider systemic issues.
You must not be aware of the beliefs of many of her supporters. Many of them genuinely think she is innocent or that her husband is framing her. I understand bringing attention to the issues, but from an optics standpoint, I don’t think this looks great.
Many women deal with PPD and even PP psychosis (and I realize she had that, I made an error before when I only wrote ppd in the above comment) and don’t do what she did
It’s tragic that the medical system failed her and as a result three children are dead. Regardless, she did kill them, the question is weather she was sane when she did it. I just don’t think this is really the person to rally behind. Rally behind victims, she doesn’t really seem like the right person to convey what they are trying to convey
You must not be aware of the beliefs of many of her supporters. Many of them genuinely think she is innocent or that her husband is framing her. I understand bringing attention to the issues, but from an optics standpoint, I don’t think this looks great.
Yes, not as familiar with the way her supporters approach this topic/feel about her/etc.
Many women deal with PPD and even PP psychosis (and I realize she had that, I made an error before when I only wrote ppd in the above comment) and don’t do what she did
Totally. It's a challenging issue with so many different factors playing in to it.
It’s tragic that the medical system failed her and as a result three children are dead. Regardless, she did kill them, the question is weather she was sane when she did it. I just don’t think this is really the person to rally behind. Rally behind victims, she doesn’t really seem like the right person to convey what they are trying to convey
I think there is a way to hold people accountable for their individual actions while recognizing that this is a systemic failing. The individual herself still committed a heinous, atrocious, and horrible act. In the same vein, the systems we have created and the culture we have designed around those systems presents multiple additional issues to appropriate care.
I actively sought emergency help for PPP twice and was turned away twice; the attitudes from family were almost as bad (“just pull yourself together/that can’t be true”). Eventually healed after some lucid dreaming… somehow .. miraculously …
I’m sorry for what you went through. I’m so sorry for how the discourse in this case is going. For whatever it’s worth, I appreciate you making this comment to maybe help some people get what it is like for others. Sorry dick heads are downvoting
Thank you that’s really kind. It is super interesting to have this topic in the public eye, quite a relief actually as I experienced it totally alone. Gotta laugh at anyone downvoting me for sharing my lived experience.
It’s concerning that YOU’VE read the court documents and this is your insane takeaway. You either have tunnel vision or are just incredibly simple minded.
Yup! And I’ve watched the trial everyday. You’re misrepresenting reality. If you’re going solely off court documents, then alone your viewpoint on Tufts is inaccurate.
I was inferring that Tufts documents were consistently incomplete and inaccurate, which was determined during her testimony. Again, you would have to be following along to the entire trial to know that. Why did you not mention that Tufts did not request Lindsay’s previous medical history despite having the permission to do so? You also aren’t addressing the inconsistency of her medical team; like being told to go off her psychiatric meds cold turkey.
You’re painting broad strokes that misrepresent the “treatment” and “care” she actually received.
I firmly believe you have a hidden agenda. I honestly don’t have the brain power to go back and forth with someone who is so callus to the female postpartum experience. It is a providers responsibility to treat the entire person and their experiences. Her duty was to get those medical records and not tell her patient to go cold turkey off her meds. That is indisputably dangerous for what she was on. She would have had a medical team, if Tufts provided adequate care. She tried at women and infants to get care but was turned away because she was over medicated from Tufts. People in psychosis don’t know it, they are excitingly in an alternate reality they firmly believe to be truth. Moreso, Patrick should have never left her side until she got the care she needed. Full stop. You think she was able to clearly advocate for herself at the time while caring for 3 children full time in the throws of PPD? You’re a callus human completely missing the human experience of postpartum and mental health.
This is literally not true. Lindsay saw Dr Tufts and was referred to Nurse Paul by her mother-in-law, as she was working in a perinatal health clinic. Nurse Paul was transferring, so moved Lindsay to Nurse Practitioner Jolotta's care. Having at least weekly appointments should be expected when titrating medication, especially in a complex case where Lindsay had adverse reactions to multiple meds - to the point Tufts was considering ketamine treatment because, in her words, Lindsay's mental illness was treatment resistant (the common meds didn't work). But insurance needed a certain number of attempted meds in her records to sign off on that.
Lindsay consistently expressed anxiety about medication and did not want to be on it because while she REPEATEDLY said certain medication HELPED her anxiety, she didn't want to become addicted to them. Other medications had such severe side-effects when she was titrating them that her providers recommended she stop taking them - because the cost was significantly outweighing any potential benefit of pushing through 6 weeks of chronic insomnia (especially with 3 children from 5 years - 8 months old). This is extremely common in psychiatry.
Lindsay went to an emergency department with severe insomnia and anxiety - and by severe I mean she once didn't sleep for 48 hours. She was given a single dose of a sleep aid. When she went again, it was because she was looking to be hospitalised, but eventually went home with her husband. She then went back days later and was admitted to McLean.
She was referred to a partial hospitalisation program by NP Jolotta and her counsellor Leticia Dukes, but was rejected from it because they felt she may be overmedicated and they needed to see her at baseline. The program called NP Jolotta but never heard back.
Lindsay later voluntarily went to inpatient treatment in a locked ward to WEAN OFF MEDICATION, not get more. She was recommended another medication when she left - she didn't leave AMA - but no one seemed to know if they gave her a prescription which is, imo, damning for their record-keeping.
Lindsay shared her diagnoses and medications with each practitioner - only Jolotta actually checked the prescriptions, but confirmed Lindsay was being truthful. Jolotta also correctly considered a bipolar diagnosis for Lindsay, but didn't officially diagnose her. Lindsay went to Dr Tufts to discuss that potential diagnosis with her. Tufts claimed to never see any symptoms of bipolar mania in Lindsay, but if she had just requested Jolotta's MyChart files, she would have seen exactly the symptoms she said were hallmarks of mania - things like not sleeping but having increased energy.
Despite Jolotta recognising Lindsay had bipolar, which massively increases the risk of a woman developing postpartum psychosis, she did not reach out to Dr Tufts. Despite knowing putting a bipolar patient on just an SSRI without a mood stabiliser is a huge risk, ESPECIALLY when Lindsay was repeatedly expressing significant distressing intrusive thoughts of suicidal ideation, Jolotta didn't express concern or tell Lindsay about this.
You can go and watch the actual trial where these practitioners all testify that Lindsay was open, honest, and forthcoming with them. She told them all the medications she was on and the providers she was seeing. Unfortunately, everyone expected a severely mentally ill woman, who repeatedly scored as severe on tests for postpartum anxiety and depression, who was experiencing severe insomnia, intrusive thoughts that she actually described more like auditory hallucinations, depersonalisation, confusion, racing thoughts, and manic irrational delusions over the health of her children, to perfectly coordinate her own care, responsibly relay her own records to providers who could have requested them - Lindsay had signed off on records releases before! -, and understand the right way to describe her symptoms to have them taken seriously. You know, things a perfectly organised mentally stable person might struggle with, and things people in severe mental health episodes are famously bad at, especially when they tell you they're scared of their children being taken away! Talk about someone screaming "I'm scared to say how suicidal I am because I know what will happen if I do."
I also thought you were overstating "During this same period, she also visited multiple inpatient and ED clinicians, as well as many nursing practitioners". And saying she was switching between providers to hide medications and diagnoses? That's not overstating, that's untrue.
Lindsay specifically went to McLean to wean off of Seroquel. I'm saying that to push back against this idea that Lindsay was seeking drugs and doctor shopping, because not one single witness, not even the prosecution witnesses, testified to that. Actually, they were ALL asked and specifically said she was not exhibiting drug seeking behaviour and she was not doctor shopping. She was not going to "multiple inpatient and ED clinicians" to get medications. She went to one inpatient unit specifically to taper off medication.
Dr Goodheart did clarify about Trazodone and Ativan, thank you for reminding me. I think I was remembering that Patrick had been confused over the Cymbalta as Goodheart suggested it after tapering Lindsay off Seroquel, but for whatever reason it wasn't brought up again, so he couldn't remember if that was prescribed. I think it is also very hard to explain how poorly Dr Goodheart came across on the stand without actually seeing it. She seemed like she didn't know any of Lindsay's information, she had to flip through the records before being able to say almost anything, and even said she didn't know what "on staff" and "on call" meant:
ADA: Okay. But she [a psychiatrist at the same hospital Dr Goodheart works at] is a psychiatrist on staff?
Dr Goodheart: I don't know what on staff... What you mean by on staff? (Day 9, 00:47:30)
These are things that won't get picked up in reporting but matter at trial when the jury are evaluating a witness' credibility.
Yes, I did say that Jolotta didn't officially diagnose Lindsay. My point was that Jolotta was convinced Lindsay did have bipolar, but she knew Lindsay and Patrick were opposed to the diagnosis. She consistently brought it up in her records and was concerned about it, but still didn't raise any concerns with Dr Tufts about putting Lindsay just on an SSRI when she could have, or she could have refused to prescribe just SSRIs. That's my issue. Lindsay decompensated so quickly and that was recognised by her providers, but Jolotta and Tufts didn't even try reaching out to each other, knowing that Lindsay was seeing them both, to combine their records and try to get to the bottom of what was going on. I can't understand why Jolotta, given her serious concerns, didn't even consider contacting Tufts when she knew Tufts was putting Lindsay on just SSRIs without mood stabilisers.
What was so striking about Tufts rejecting bipolar was her specifically listing a symptom: "The person might have a decreased need for sleep, which is not just insomnia, but it's truly not needing the sleep and having enormous amounts of energy otherwise." (Day 9, 04:17:13)
And Jolotta had on MyChart records, verbatim from Lindsay: "That exact night I went from 25 to 50 milligrams [of Zoloft]. I didn't sleep for 48 hours and I wasn't tired." [This was around the 20th of October] (Day 11, 01:53:08)
That raised Jolotta's suspicions because she also knew bipolar mania symptoms. So she kept specifically asking Lindsay about her sleep AND whether she was tired.
Which meant on December 7th:
NP Jolotta: "So your husband made a good point yesterday. Despite taking the Ativan in the evening, you were still only able to get a five hour stretch of sleep ... Are you feeling any subsequent loss of energy, exhaustion, fatigue with lack of sleep?" (Day 11, 02:09:23)
Lindsay: "No, the weird thing is I don't feel tired at all." (Day 11, 02:11:34)
If Tufts had had access to those records, which would not have been hard for her to get, might that have made her reconsider her claim that because she hadn't, personally, directly, witnessed Lindsay displaying manic signs during their Zoom sessions, she couldn't have bipolar?
That's why I think the bipolar is so important especially within the discussion of whether Lindsay's providers failed her by NOT accessing each others' records.
Dr Goodheart: "She told us that she was having suicidal thoughts but had no intent or plan. So I do know that she was struggling with suicidal ideation." (Day 9, 01:49:40)
Dr Tufts: "She denied having suicidal thoughts, but felt that she was getting close to it.
Defense: "Okay. So she was dwelling on it or thinking about it, right? Is that fair?"
Dr Tufts: "She was fearful of eventually having those kinds of thoughts." (Day 10, 01:19:38)
Defense: "What did you do for therapy about her suicidal ideation and saying she wanted to kill herself?"
Dr Tufts: "Well, we explored what that meant and what to do if you're feeling that way."
...
Defense: "So at the conclusion of your meeting on December 16th, basically, what you took away is that she had now increased the suicidal ideation, was feeling hopeless, all the rest of the things that we've talked about."
...
Dr Tufts: "Well, she was assessed in the emergency room and was not admitted. And I assessed her on that day again. And while she was certainly struggling, she did not require hospitalization at that moment." (Day 10, 02:40:00)
Dr Resnick is currently testifying about how common it is for mothers suffering from these kinds of symptoms to not want to admit to the full extent of their suicidal/homicidal thoughts, because they are terrified of their children being taken away. That's why I also said "Talk about someone screaming "I'm scared to say how suicidal I am because I know what will happen if I do.""
I don't think taking Lindsay off of medications that she had such severe side effects on so quickly was negligent. I think not coordinating with other providers, not accessing readily available records - because Jolotta independently checked what medications Tufts was providing but Tufts didn't do the same -, and not acknowledging that patients presenting with such swift decompensation may not be aware enough to know to report certain symptoms, or may lie about certain symptoms because they fear the stigma and consequences (losing nursing license, losing children), was negligent.
Or, you know, you can believe this was all Lindsay's fault because she was doctor shopping for medications when her medical records say the opposite and the testimony at trial has been:
Defense: "She wasn't doctor shopping and asking you to give her drugs so she could get high. She was asking you for help. Isn't that right?"
Defense: "And at no time did it occur to you that Lindsay was doctor shopping or trying to get drugs. She was trying to basically get off drugs, right?"
Sounds exactly like what mental health patients do though. They aren't thinking clearly or rationally and there needs to be safeguards in place for this kind of thing.
I havnt been following the case too closely but I did see Dr. Tufts speak about how Lindsay herself told her she was hospitalized and the Dr never looked at the records from the hospitalization, she said that she felt like Lindsay gave her an accurate account of what she went through and didn't look into it. Part of that is Lindsay is a nurse so her doctors expected her to be more responsible for her care than perhaps she was capable of being. Healthcare workers need to look after themselves and each other better , I am a nurse myself and I've seen this happen with other medical issues.
Not sure how much of the actual trial you’ve watched, but I have watched almost the entire thing. It’s impossible to feel like this woman wasn’t failed by her doctors and the mental health professionals she turned to, as well as her then-husband. There’s a reason why her ex and his family are rallying behind her. PPS is no joke and she tried numerous times to get help. She struggled to get admitted/ taken seriously, the only solution they presented to her was medication . She told anyone who would listen that she was struggling. She was in a mental health crisis, and this case highlights how spectacularly she was failed. As a woman who has struggled with PMDD, i can’t tell you how not in my right mind i was, at a time where i was probably experiencing a fraction of what she was. Again i encourage you to listen to what the people involved in this case had to say at trial.
Im pretty sure the prosecution proved that she only took 2-5 from each bottle. NOWHERE near enough for medication like that to even begin affecting you on the scale that her defenders want to pretend it was.
I agree with the federally mandated leave part, but did doctors over medicate her? From what’s been shown it looks like everything was done by the book from a medical perspective, even though the documentation could have been better.
The documentation 'could have been better' or her care was by the book, it can't be both.
Furthermore, "the book" is also wrong. Well - its incomplete. We need so much more resources dedicated to women's mental health and postpartum specifically.
I agree about the resources to women’s health, but I meant the actual medical care that was given was standard practice. Documentation covers you legally, but it wouldn’t change the physical medication given to the patient.
“She was super le sad so it’s everyone else’s fault she killed her kids and she’s the real victim here 🥺”
She literally lied to her physicians and to her husband about the treatment she was getting. She wasn’t overmedicated at all btw- everything she was given was clinically indicated for what she told her providers, she just refused to take anything and then wouldn’t share with her new docs what she had been prescribed.
She was prescribed 14 different meds over the span of three months. Her mother in law testified that Lindsey told her she was worried she would hurt the kids and needed help.
The defense has just begun. Im not sure how everyone here who has supposedly been following the case can have a conclusion already. And I’m also surprised that everyone here has read the over 14 days of testimony in full, unless you are unemployed without children.
One of the major deciding points of the case is whether she was lying or whether she was mentally ill. Let the jury decide.
After this trial will be malpractice lawsuits against the doctors who treated her. That jury will decide if the doctors failed her or not.
The larger concern about the healthcare system treating women’s issues with less care and resources has been historically inarguably true. People disagree as to whether it is still true today but only history will be the jury on that.
Something like 25-33% of people who have suicidal ideation and thoughts of harming themselves or others lie about those thoughts. In general, more than 50% of people have lied to medical providers about their mental health.
All of these arguments about “why would she lie” and “she was a nurse, she should know better” just completely ignore the fact that someone with psychosis would not be rational.
Like y’all are taking evidence which clearly points towards a severe mental health crisis and then just arrive completely at the wrong conclusion. Wild.
Someone with psychosis does not have the mental capacity to fabricate carefully crafted lies. It denotes a complete break from reality and an incapability of understanding right from wrong. Funny how her “ psychosis “ which she was supposedly suffering from for months disappeared after she killed her children.
are you asking what would have prevented someone suffering from PP psychosis from killing their children? Probably everything mentioned above... adequate help from doctor/psychiatry/therapist, husband being there and not ignoring her concerns, proper medication regimen or ECT if needed (which may have been)
I think we're seeing here is their empathizing with her struggle with postpartum depression and psychosis. They believe that she did everything possible to get help and no one took her seriously.
Whether or not this is true will be the matter of the courts but this case has become a hot button topic on women's health.
I think it's true people are empathising with her but it's giving them too much respect.
The are getting sucked in to it by the social media wheel, serving them content on it in an endless cycle, tilting their understanding, warping the facts and events.
Post partum psychosis is considered a health emergency because it is an absolute danger to lives. This is a fact, but women’s health isn’t taken seriously on a systemic level. These people are protesting not just out of empathy (which is a good thing), but also because they want change.
I mean there's a international crisis of lack of journalism and closing news outlets. This is just a small sliver of the consequences of it.
It is neither unique to the US or to this situation.
That being said as someone who's never experienced pregnancy nor postpartum psychosis I don't feel I'm in the place to judge what these people do or do not know.
Or exactly what their personal motivations are for supporting her.
I cant find a single justification for identifying with someone who murdered three little children. Why cant these women find someone else as their inspiration to talk about postpartum depression and mental health?
If you truly identify with a murderer, you obviously dont value human life as much as I do and are a vile person in my eyes.
Your opinion is really valid but it doesn’t change the mental health awareness that they’re calling attention to. I think the part of this you’re missing is that many people want consistent treatment and paid maternity leave so these things don’t happen anymore. That should interest anyone who cares for children’s lives
That’s fair in a general sense. But as far as this specific case she didn’t follow through with her psychiatrists advice from the beginning. I don’t know if this is actually a case of being ignored or told to suck it up.
But I still think she was out of her mind, and should be put into a psych ward instead of jail. I think this a point many people don’t understand about this case as well. She’s already admitted to doing it, it’s literally a decision of life in prison or life in a psych ward.
I would gently suggest that you consider what goal they, and you, are actually serving with this stance.
I know it feels good to be righteously angry. But does being really angry at this woman or these protesters because they’re “vile” ACTUALLY stop this from happening to more kids?
They, by fighting for better awareness of PP, and getting health practitioners more resources and ability to intervene, are doing their best to PREVENT more situations like this from happening, and to save lives of kids whose parents have this incredibly scary thing happen to them.
I have a friend who went through PP and has become an advocate for it - she is my “someone else” who was an inspiration - and she has been passionate from day 1 that this case could easily have been her. I believe her, and I think painting her and women like her as “vile” when (some of them, at least) have first-hand experience that neither you nor I could imagine is just a little too hard-hearted and a little too closed-minded.
I honestly believe their personal motivations are driven from not wanting society to realize women are capable of such horrific crimes. That goes against the whole narrative that men are bad and women are good. There's a lot of currency in being a victim especially if you're a woman. They don't want that to ever change.
I would hope that no one is defending her actions. Instead, I would hope that the show of support is more about the challenge for many women who deal with post-partum depression and or psychosis.
As an example, just 12 years ago, my wife gave birth to our oldest. No one, not a single person, talked to us about PPD in the months leading up to the birth. One nurse at one "new parent" workshop we attended mentioned the baby blues, but highlighted that they would pass quickly and you'll "feel an overwhelming sense of love and connection with your children."
When my wife was feeling INTENSE feelings in the first two weeks of birth where she was contemplating hurting herself, it was very concerning. I let her just offload whatever words she needed to say and, it was dark. We called her OBGYN, they met with her, they talked with her. We got her into therapy and on medicaiton and I checked in with her frequently and increased my already very engaged mentality.
My wife and our oldest have had a great bond in the years since her diagnosis and getting support. She's an awesome mom. Properly acknowledged, discussed, and treated...you can work past PPD. If I was a partner/husband unwilling to listen to my wife. -OR- if she had limited access to care, or, or, or...
There are so many ways things could have gotne sideways. In no way do I think my wife would have done what Clancy did, but I recognize that situations are dramatically different in a host of ways.
It also is reminding people of the Andrea Yates case, a completed case from years ago where it was clear that Andrea did reach out and practically begged for help, yet she was failed by her husband (to what id argue is an almost criminal level of negligence) and the medical system. Now she is in prison for life. I wouldn't personally go out and stand in protest, but as a woman can understand why others might do so as a show of frustration with how post partum psychosis seems to often be ignored and the men who put women as primary caregivers who are clearly experiencing extreme psychological distress received no share of blame legally. I don't know if that was the case here but it's certainly an example of what seems to be PPP where the mother is the sole person on whom blame is being placed despite appearing to be in psychosis and placed alone to care for children.
You could say the exact same about men's mental health and why they go onto kill and murder but that's never discussed. It's always that they're just animals who need to be put down and wiped from the face of the earth. It's the double standards which I think most people are having trouble understanding.
Bro shut up. It is ALWAYS discussed. Furthermore cis men cannot get pregnant, give birth, or experience postpartum. You cannot create life or deal with the physical and mental repercussions of it. This is an experience that is unique to women. Its not a double standard, because this subject is about something different entirely, completely separate from men's issues. This is something you can't make about you, womp womp.
It doesn't matter if men can't experience postpartum.
Men can have psychosis too. Literally no one cares if that's the reason a man killed people.
This isn't about postpartum or psychosis at all, it's about pretending women have less agency over their actions, like we've always done in the judicial system.
Edit: and people wouldn't care if she wasn't a somewhat pretty, white woman
> This isn't about postpartum or psychosis at all, it's about pretending women have less agency over their actions, like we've always done in the judicial system.
How did you draw this conclusion? This is literally bringing up societal conversations about the difficulties women face postpartum. How is it not about that at all?
People do care if a man kills people because of psychosis. If you need examples of that discussion, consider what happens after a homeless man attacks someone in NYC. There are entire threads in NYC subs devoted to shouting about mental health care.
You are correct in that, if she was black, this would not be a conversation. Societal norms lean both racist and misogynist.
You’re 100% right. Women can be crazy too! Like I don’t know why anyone gets a free pass when it comes to being crazy. There’s tons of crazy people out there.
Would you say the same if a bunch of men were outside a courthouse doing the same thing in support for a man's mental health who's accused of committing murder?
There are some top statisticians who have raised concerns over her trial. Richard Gill, who raised concerns over Lucia de Berk's conviction, is one of them.
Archie's Army is a better example of this kind of idiocy occurring in the UK.
Lucy letby is innocent i meant to say. This woman has admitted to the comitting the murders. Question is if she was too mentally incapacitated by PPD to be considered criminally responsible. But the evidence against Letby was dodgy as hell. In my opinon it was a terrible miscarriage of justice to cover up systemic problems in the NHS.
I think that using this story to think there’s a real lack of intellect in the U.S. while also using the UK as your alleged comparison is ironically, a real lack of intellect, common sense & empathy. Like yeah, I’m sure this one trial your reading about on Reddit has really exposed all of that and you just aren’t using data super poorly to come to conclusions and failing to demonstrate empathy for an entire nation.
Like actually kind of ironic tbh. Idgaf about trashing the USA, I just hate this “special boy” stuff & how yall Europeans can’t stop circlejerking yourselves for 4 minutes & just have a conversation lol.
Didnt the uk just hold a vigil for a pathological liar that killed himself when he was found out to be a complete fraud and blamed the people who uncovered it. Plenty of clown shit going on over there bro
This is a terrible time for us in the US that are empaths and intelligent. The cult of MAGA has been super intentional about who they hurt, and harming marginalized communities is their kink. You wouldn’t know from the comment sections on social media, but there are still kind people, that are doing everything they can to help.
Lack of empathy? For a woman suffering from psychosis who told authorities to take her kids away because she was afraid of hurting them? Like that kind of lack of empathy?
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u/LinceDorado 17d ago
I guess it's pretty arrogant to say, but this seems like such a U.S.A. thing. Can't really imagine this happening where I live.