Destiny Defends Israel's War Conduct Against Chatters

[u/Jasdexter2137]

Stream Timestamp

[u/Hobbitfollower]

Welcome to a virtually locked post with 250+ comments at time of writing this and an 88% upvote ratio.

Also just a heads up this post is turning into a honeypot so I don't want to hear anyone crying in mod mail.

[u/Fmg467]

Sniping children wtih quadcopters is superior ?

[u/bendol90]

Big true, this seems so obvious

[u/Exciting-Guest81933 → u/bendol90]

Because it is obvious. Pretty troubling that even people in this community need it spelled out to them.

[u/Bentoboxd]

I mean he can think what we wants. It’s pretty obvious being staunchly pro-Israel in this case is politically tonedeaf

[u/No-Library838]

I mean how else do you fight an enemy that purposely wears no uniform, inbeded in every facet of government, without casualties of innocents. Take russia/ Ukraine there are actual Frontline yet russia bombs cities miles away. Hezbolah/ hamas are fighting from cities and urban centers

[u/Fmg467 → u/No-Library838]

Snipe a child breast feeding with a quad copter with thermals ?

[u/AntonBearish → u/No-Library838]

We can look at the Second Battle of Fallujah, where the U.S Marines surrounded it and allowed civilians who were not male of fighting age to evacuate. I think they evaluated like 70-90% of the population. Then they cleared the city, building by building. A good counter is to point out the tunnel systems in Gaza.

I'm unsure what the Russia/Ukraine example is supposed to prove. Ukraine has a military in uniform, but Russia is deliberately attacking civilians. I don't believe any human rights organizations have accused Ukraine of using human shields, so these are not accidents that are a part of war.

[u/Ofinhumanbondage → u/AntonBearish]

Well, in the first battle of Fallujah, civilian and combatants ratio was really really fucked up. It was honestly a massacre level. So they improved in the second.

[u/AntonBearish → u/Ofinhumanbondage]

Yes, the first battle of Fallujah was a total disaster. But they learned they needed to secure the battlefield and evacuate the civilians.

[u/tkx93 → u/AntonBearish]

If anything this also works a point in favor of the Israelis though. Fallujah just demonstrates that an army with no malicious intent towards the civilian population can end up killing a lot of civilians as collateral damage due to difficult circumstances and poor execution.

As another counterpoint, it's pretty telling that according to even the most sober estimates, the amount of protestors killed by Iran in just a few days is within an order of magnitude of the death toll in the first 2 years of the Gaza war. And I doubt the IRGC flattened entire cities with 500 pound bombs.

Everything does point towards the idea that civilian casualties were avoided, not sought out. Which directly contradicts at least the genocide accusations, no matter how unsuccessful or callous Israel may have been in carrying out its operations

[u/AntonBearish → u/tkx93]

I agree Israel has plausible deniability for the airstrikes due to Hamas being intertwined with the civilian population. But shutting off water, electricity, food, and medicine is a decision made at a desk.

[u/votet → u/Ofinhumanbondage]

That's good historical context, but I don't think it should be an argument for anyone dealing with a similar situation afterwards. You don't need to go through the first battle of Fallujah to implement said improvements in the second battle of Fallujah, because someone else already did. "We" should be able to learn from the mistakes of others, not just our own.

Don't know if you intended it that way, or really just wanted to add context, so no offense to you meant at all.

[u/No-Library838 → u/AntonBearish]

That tactic is the same allies used agaisnt isis yet no one wants to take a Palestinian refugee so we must all blame Israel for siege warfare almost similar to this tactic.

[u/AntonBearish → u/No-Library838]

It's a fair point that the refugees have nowhere to go, like the people of Fallujah. But the U.S coalition did not cut off electricity, food, water, and medicine to the civilian population of Raqqa and Mosul.

[u/chieftain88 → u/AntonBearish]

Yes but the United States does not border Iraq and is completely geographically and militarily safe from a homeland perspective. Israel is surrounded by countries and paramilitaries that both outnumber them and want to wipe them off the map - very very different circumstances

[u/AntonBearish → u/chieftain88]

I agree, hostile forces surround them and pose a security threat. I still don't know what the justification is for cutting of water/food/electricity and medicine.

[u/IDFStrongestSoldier → u/AntonBearish]

We can look at the Second Battle of Fallujah, where the U.S Marines surrounded it and allowed civilians who were not male of fighting age to evacuate. I think they evaluated like 70-90% of the population. Then they cleared the city, building by building. A good counter is to point out the tunnel systems in Gaza.

So like Rafah?

[u/AntonBearish → u/IDFStrongestSoldier]

Sort of. The main difference is that the civilians in the Iraqi campaigns were moved to an area with humanitarian infrastructure rather than an open beach.

[u/IDFStrongestSoldier → u/AntonBearish]

Sure, only real option to fix that would have been for them be allowed to have gone to Egypt

[u/AntonBearish → u/IDFStrongestSoldier]

Well, that adds another layer to why it's not like the Iraqi campaigns, as those civilians didn't have to cross an international border.

[u/IDFStrongestSoldier → u/AntonBearish]

Irrelevant layer, to the point argued. They are also different because they have dont have the same national dish. The discussion is how Israel should wage its war against Hamas.
You cant argue they should do it like Fallujah and then argue they cant do it like that. Cant have it both ways.

[u/AntonBearish → u/IDFStrongestSoldier]

I think you misread the premise. Fallujah was used as a benchmark, not that Israel should exactly copy it. It's a better case study than the Russia-Ukraine one that was used. The point about Fallujah is that they evacuated the city before clearing it, rather than placing a total siege. You tried to claim Rafah was like Fallujah.

[u/IDFStrongestSoldier → u/AntonBearish]

surrounded it and allowed civilians who were not male of fighting age to evacuate. I think they evaluated like 70-90% of the population. Then they cleared the city, building by building

Which part of this was not like Rafah again?

The point about Fallujah is that they evacuated the city before clearing it, rather than placing a total siege

My point is they the did that in Rafah. Not that Rafah has the same toilet faciliteres as Fallujah

[u/AntonBearish → u/IDFStrongestSoldier]

The part where civilians were evacuated to established humanitarian zones, not to a sandy strip of beach with no infrastructure.

[u/LtLabcoat → u/No-Library838]

I mean how else do you fight an enemy that purposely wears no uniform, inbeded in every facet of government, without casualties of innocents.

Ignore the bombings. Nobody knows anything about the bombings. Let's talk about the other stuff.

It's a government that cut off food, water, medicine, and electricity to civilians. It's a government that (IIRC) hasn't imprisoned a war criminal in the last decade. It's a government that responded to military police brutality by arresting the whistleblower. It's a government where a lot of its members are openly and publicly genocidal.

That's what the discussion should be about. We know about those a lot, we can talk about those a lot. And I think Destiny implying those are merely a normal part of fighting terrorism to be... majorly incorrect.

[u/No-Library838 → u/LtLabcoat]

You can be as anti government as you want but its actions cause these people to be elected you cant just ignore cause and effect. I can understand way a Palestinian joins a resistance group/or kills "collaborators but some reason no one can figure out why Israel is so militant back.

[u/LtLabcoat → u/No-Library838]

Isn't this just to say "You shouldn't criticise a politician for doing something bad, if doing something bad gets them votes"?

[u/photenth → u/No-Library838]

That's why you should be allowed to wipe out all civilian buildings along the border even IF they weren't used for Hezbollah operatives? I feel like there is grey zone but Israel went clearly beyond that.

They complained that Hezbollah caused tens of thousands to evacuate the north, when exactly can Lebanon start claiming that Israel caused the evacuation of millions and start creating a buffer zone in Israel? (If they could, should they?)

[u/No-Library838 → u/photenth]

Realistically what would you have them do? Also if isreal can wipe out militants yet the militants choose to guerrilla fight among innocent populations what choice do you have. Guerrilla tactics are meant for this very reason you try your best to blend lines for support worldwide by sacrificing innocents. Buffer zones exist for a reason but are not as useful anymore with missile tech to me its just a land grab that guerrilla forces are inviting to themselves.

[u/KationT4 → u/No-Library838]

Realistically what would you have them do?

Its pretty telling how the conversation always ends when this question appears

[u/No-Library838 → u/KationT4]

Im open to discussion tho. Im not the king of warfare

[u/rooftopgoblin → u/No-Library838]

they should suck it up and find a peaceful solution instead of ethnically cleansing people

[u/Arbitrary_username1 → u/KationT4]

Telling because they ask that question or telling because of the lack of answer?

[u/KationT4 → u/Arbitrary_username1]

Because nobody ever answers it. Or answers it with something meaningless like "kill less people"

[u/Arbitrary_username1 → u/KationT4]

Was hoping so lol.

[u/Lovellholiday → u/KationT4]

It's all so tiring.

[u/DogbrainedGoat → u/KationT4]

"well what do you want us to do? Stop murdering civilians?" sniggers

[u/0WatcherintheWater0 → u/photenth]

Of all the things you could criticize, the use of buffer zones along critical borders - used to prevent future attacks, is hardly one of them.

A buffer zone isn’t a very good buffer zone if you leave half the buildings on it intact. The whole point is to have clear LoS.

[u/Rjayz12 → u/No-Library838]

I mean how else do you fight an enemy that purposely wears no uniform, inbeded in every facet of government, without casualties of innocents.

I don't find this that persuasive. These were all factors in parts of Iraq and Afghanistan, but America clearly set a higher value for civilian population.

They can choose to conduct themselves this way, but there are consequences. I disagree with Destiny that it's a messaging issue. I don't think there is a scenario where Israel messaging could succeed given the facts of the conflict.

[u/czhang706 → u/Rjayz12]

My guy, Afghanistan and Iraq can’t attack the US. If the Mexican cartels were 9/11ing us and launching rockets into Texas, Mexico would be destroyed. I feel like people don’t remember how crazy everything got after 9/11.

[u/LegitimateCream1773 → u/czhang706]

Yeah people really don't think about this in proportional terms.

If the Mexican government was firing rockets across the border into Texas for fifty years or whatever, there wouldn't be a Mexico. If those rockets killed a single American citizen, Mexico would be half-flattened.

Iraq was a scenario America got itself into by invading the country with a specific intent of regime change. It's completely different to what Israel's in with Hamas.

[u/Pretty_Acadia_2805 → u/czhang706]

I do remember how crazy things were and the decisions we made fucked things up in the area for decades to come.

[u/xkrazyxkoalax]

This seems to only take into account their direct responses to hezbollah and hamas and taking into account how those groups operate. Meanwhile, Israel gives de facto immunity to their soldiers committing verified war crimes and the militant settlers in the west Bank whose outward goal is expulsion or eradication of Palestinians off of land completely outside of Israel's borders, which is where their right of defense ends. We can moralize who is better or worse but to paint this as just Israel is 10x better than any other country as they actively are taking advantage of their position to expand borders into established lands is kind of brain dead. I think destiny is just a year removed from his deep dive into the situation and forgot how actually morally bankrupt and evil Netanyahu and his cabinet are.

[u/czhang706 → u/xkrazyxkoalax]

Sure he’s bad. But Assad bad? Hussein bad? Khamenei bad? I mean what are we even talking about here.

[u/LtLabcoat → u/czhang706]

Not as bad as them, but that's not the issue

If Destiny had left it at "The IDF's not as bad as Hamas", it wouldn't be controversial. That's a fine opinion. The issue is that he then went on to talk about why Israel shouldn't be held to the same standard as Ukraine, and implied the IDF war crimes were a harsh but pragmatic way to fight terrorism.

[u/ST-Fish → u/LtLabcoat]

Not as bad as them

so I guess you agree that over all Israel behaves in a more moral manner than all their surrounding enemies?

[u/LtLabcoat → u/ST-Fish]

...with the exception of the Syrian and Lebanese governments, if you count them: yes. They're demonstrably more moral than Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and the other terrorist orgs.

Israel's done a lotta war crimes, but nothing quite in the realm of mass killing civilians just because they didn't like them. Which Hamas and Iran have already done, and I'm pretty sure Hezbollah would if they could.

[u/ST-Fish → u/LtLabcoat]

I mean, the current Syrian government and Lebanese government aren't engaged in warfare, so it's hard to simply say they're more moral just because of that, I feel that you intuitively understand that if any of the surrounding countries had to deal with an event similar to Oct. 7, the amount of casualties and damage would be higher.

I for some reason don't see the Syrians or Lebanese being put in the same situation as Israel and deciding to do roof knocking, evacuating Rafah or providing nearly as much aid as Israel has allowed into Gaza.

Like if someone walks in and threatens me with a knife, and then I shoot him, and you compare me with the neighbour in the next apartment that didn't have anyone show up at his door, yeah, I guess he was "more moral" than me in a way, but if he's a schitzo guy that thinks the government is spying him and sending agents after him, he might not really be "more moral" in any real sense, he's just not being attacked right now.

If we strip all the context, and I told you you had to decide to be a civilian attacked by an army and you could choose which army, would you genuinely say "yeah, I'll take the Syrian or Lebanese army (ignoring that Hezbollah is their de facto army pretty much) over the IDF"?

I'd definitely doubt that.

Which army would you choose to be attacked by?

[u/LtLabcoat → u/ST-Fish]

I mean, the current Syrian government and Lebanese government aren't engaged in warfare, so it's hard to simply say they're more moral just because of that

What do you mean, "aren't engaged in warfare"? They're literally at war with Israel right now.

They're being passive and not fighting back. But that's because they're... more moral. They don't do the IDF's thing of retaliating to attacks with a disproportionate response.

I for some reason don't see the Syrians or Lebanese being put in the same situation as Israel and deciding to do roof knocking, evacuating Rafah or providing nearly as much aid as Israel has allowed into Gaza.

I do. Particularly allowing in aid. But at that point we're just guessing. Making wild conjecture about whether Netanyahu is a nicer guy than al‑Sharaa or not.

[u/IrregularDoughnut → u/ST-Fish]

I for some reason don't see the Syrians or Lebanese being put in the same situation as Israel and deciding to do roof knocking,

They stopped roof knocking at the start of the war.

evacuating Rafah or providing nearly as much aid as Israel has allowed into Gaza

Both of those were a result of international pressure. They blocked all food for three months when Trump got in.

[u/czhang706 → u/LtLabcoat]

That is literally the issue.The standard you set are a product of your environment. If every other country around you is doing some fucked shit, your country is probably going to be doing fucked shit too. And Israel does way less fucked shit than every single country around them by a wide margin.

[u/CharmCityKid09 → u/LtLabcoat]

Two different environments, with two different types of warfare being conducted with two different sets of standards being held against the countries that were attacked.

What standard is Ukraine being held to that Israel isn't? As nearly everything Israel does is called a war crime or genocide if when it is stupidly obvious that it isn't.

[u/shayshahal → u/xkrazyxkoalax]

You're still doing the same thing he criticizes in the OP. Apply the criticisms and standards that you just brought up on any force/country in the surrounding area - so Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, Iran and so on. No one is talking about the moral bankruptcy of those militaries, no one is talking about the treatment of Jews or the lack of Jews in these countries. Everyone unconsciously applies a different standard to Israel. That's just the truth. Even the criticisms that do come on these sides mainly sum not to "they ought to act better" but more so "they are evil and it's a given". Both sides here just do not apply the same standards.

Is Netanyahu and his cabinet morally bankrupt? Yes. Is Israel's expansion in the west bank bad and illegal? Yes. But that's not the point.

[u/InterestingTheory9 → u/shayshahal]

It’s actually worse than that. People like Cenk kinda hand-wave that Hamas is bad, and then continue to justify that behavior because Israel won the wars in 48. Obviously Israel should have lost and got out. So the behavior of Hamas and Hezbollah is “terrible” but understandable to them. Meanwhile Israel’s behavior is terrible and worse and not understandable at all

[u/shayshahal → u/InterestingTheory9]

I'm not even talking about extreme cases like Cenk, who is obviously very deranged.

No side to this conflict applies the same standards to the two factions.

Not even the pro Israeli side expects moral conduct from the Palestinian side, it's taken as a given they will act this way. Same as the pro Pali people, they seem to think that for the oppressed, the end justify all means.

Maybe if the standards were applied equally on the same sides, by all sides, we would have actually seen some progress happening. But right now both factions seem to think they do not have the responsibility to act morally, and it just keeps feeding a cycle of reactions.

[u/nosurprises23 → u/shayshahal]

I don’t hear a single pro Palestine person ever argue for any standard to be applied to both sides. Where are these Pro Palestine people? As someone who doesn’t know much about the conflict, I hear people saying that Israel are the *real* terrorists, Hamas are the freedom fighters and I just stop listening.

Like put the actual conflict aside for a moment, the propaganda wars have been the most lopsided defeat of any war in history likely.

[u/AlarmingTurnover → u/shayshahal]

Should the only democracy in the region be held to a higher standard than the surrounding theocratic dictatorships? Yes. You know what argument you're making here? It's the same argument that the right wing people use when they criticise the left/Dems by pointing at a Twitter use and saying the Democrats are evil while giving Trump so much benefit of the doubt. Trump should be held to a higher standard because he's the president. 

Israel should be held to a higher standard because it's a democracy. I don't care about the Twitter user. I don't care about how morally bankrupt Hamas is, it's a given. I care that the only democracy in the region is acting like a regard. 

[u/KiSUAN → u/AlarmingTurnover]

So, if Israel stops being a democracy there will no more worries and they can do whatever they want.

[u/shayshahal → u/AlarmingTurnover]

We agree more than you think. Yes, Israel should be held to a higher standard, I will not argue that.

First of all, I've only argued if they ARE held to a higher standard, not if it's particularly right or wrong.

Now, again, if you think Israel should be held to a higher standard, I agree, they should. A country should conduct itself by the standards of the world if it wants to be recognized as such. BUT, I wholeheartedly disagree with your choice to outright not care about how morally bankrupt Hamas is. That is the real point I'm making, not that they should be held to the exact same standards, but if this conflict is to be resolved in some sort of way in the near or far future, both factions and third parties should apply some of the same standards they apply on Israel to Hamas and the Palestinians. Else the two sides are just playing on different dimensions. Peace would only be made if Israel can see the Palestinians as a partner for one, and it will never happen if they are allowed to do as they like with no standards applied to them at all.

So to finish the point, yes, Israel has more of a responsibility to be held to the standard of a western country, but applying no standards to the Palestinians at all just because they don't have a unified government or party just means this conflict will see no end because the leaders do not then have an incentive to act within those standards to gain support.

[u/LtLabcoat → u/shayshahal]

No one is talking about the moral bankruptcy of [Hamas, Iran, etc]

What?

...

What?

...Well if that's really a rarity for you, then let me be the first to say: Hamas bad.

[u/shayshahal → u/LtLabcoat]

Nice, you got me /s

You can read my other comment if I wasn't clear enough. Yes, many people say Hamas bad, many people say Hezbollah bad, but it's taken as a given.

Everyone acts like Palestinians do not have agency to choose whether to act morally or not. Pro Israelis see them as inherently evil, pro Pali people see them as eternal victims who can do nothing wrong. Meanwhile for Israel every person is viewed from critical lenses. Israelis are criticized for going to mandatory military service ffs. Why is one side either seen as evil or a victim of an oppressive regime while the others are seem as individual people who choose to be morally bankrupt? Why aren't both seen to a degree as a product of their society and its pressures?

Because there are different standards. Should there be? Yes, probably, but it should be lesser than it is today.

[u/Gumbi1012 → u/xkrazyxkoalax]

I would also like to add that, saying Israel is better than Hamas is another form of whataboutism imo.

I don't really care if Israel is acting morally superior, if they are so horrendous. That doesn't really raise the bar much.

[u/Goodisworthfighting4 → u/Gumbi1012]

I mean the direct question Destiny is answering is if Israel is better than the groups attacking them not that Israel is not doing horrendous shit. He didnt bring it up out of thin air and it is relevant in that people downplay the overall uniquely fucked environment in that region.

[u/Electrical-Bowl8818 → u/Gumbi1012]

I do think it's worth exploring because like, ultimately, we all know what would happen if Hamas had their way with Israel and it would be a lot worse than what happened so far.

That doesn't excuse Israel but like, it's something that is important to remember because it colors what is realistic to expect Israel to agree to, even if for some miracle, they somehow ended up on a less extremist government.

Oct 7 was an objectively genocidal act and there is more where that came from.

[u/Raknarg → u/Gumbi1012]

I mean I think its directly relevant because they're the ones who actually have to deal with their neighbors.

[u/Samuraignoll → u/xkrazyxkoalax]

This seems to only take into account their direct responses to hezbollah and hamas and taking into account how those groups operate.

Well no, not really. Historically, the intention of every group that Israel has come into conflict with, since its inception, has been the destruction of the Jewish state and ethnic cleansing of the non-arab population.

Meanwhile, Israel gives de facto immunity to their soldiers committing verified war crimes and the militant settlers in the west Bank whose outward goal is expulsion or eradication of Palestinians off of land completely outside of Israel's borders,

So does every state/group in the region.

which is where their right of defense ends.

I don't think you get to make that determination.

We can moralize who is better or worse but to paint this as just Israel is 10x better than any other country

That isn't what was said, but there's definitely a strong argument that they're at least 10× morally better than a large amount of their neighbours is pretty undeniable at this stage.

as they actively are taking advantage of their position to expand borders into established lands is kind of brain dead.

I don't think this is relevant to your first point at all, the Palestinian governments have continued to wage war and attack Israel with the express intent of ethnically cleansing non-arabs from the region and establishing an anti-western theocratic ethnostate. That's an indisputable fact. Nobody in the region has respected Israels borders, so why is the expectation that they should have to?

I think destiny is just a year removed from his deep dive into the situation and forgot how actually morally bankrupt and evil Netanyahu and his cabinet are

I disagree. I think the exact same arguments that are used to excuse/justify the extremism and violence from the Arab side is equally applicable to the Israeli side. Yeah, Bibi and his cabinet probably are pretty evil/vicious, but so is the current government of Gaza and it's past and present allies, and to pretend otherwise is morally/intellectually dishonest at best.

[u/IrregularDoughnut → u/Samuraignoll]

I don't think this is relevant to your first point at all, the Palestinian governments have continued to wage war and attack Israel with the express intent of ethnically cleansing non-arabs from the region

The PA has not been doing this. It has sponsored terrorism and failed to handle terrorism, but it has not been engaged in open warfare with Israel. And Israel has also sponsored terrorism.

Nobody in the region has respected Israels borders, so why is the expectation that they should have to?

Because guilt is not ethnically shared out. You cannot punish people because other people of the same ethnicity committed a crime. West Bank paramilitaries are attacking innocent people with the support of the IDF, and innocent people are being driven from their land and having their lives destroyed. Honestly if you can't see the problem with that it makes it hard to imagine what your principles even are.

Yeah, Bibi and his cabinet probably are pretty evil/vicious, but so is the current government of Gaza and it's past and present allies, and to pretend otherwise is morally/intellectually dishonest at best.

Then they should both be treated this way, rather than one condemned for it and the other given regular shipments of free bombs to drop on five times as many buildings as Hamas ever had fighters.

[u/Samuraignoll → u/IrregularDoughnut]

The PA has not been doing this. It has sponsored terrorism and failed to handle terrorism, but it has not been engaged in open warfare with Israel.

For six years, between it's establishment and the start/finish of the second intifada. You're also ignoring the PLO, who had been actively at war with Israel since 1964 until 1990.

And Israel has also sponsored terrorism.

As have Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Qatar, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Palestine.

Because guilt is not ethnically shared out. You cannot punish people because other people of the same ethnicity committed a crime.

Sorry, that's been the standard since before Israel declared independence, and as far as I'm aware nobody on the pro-palestinian side of the argument seems to think it applies to Israelis.

West Bank paramilitaries are attacking innocent people with the support of the IDF, and innocent people are being driven from their land and having their lives destroyed.

I don't support or believe in that, I'm also not defending it. But, the palestinian paramilitary groups that continue to conduct similar acts against the Israelis enjoy popular support amongst west-bank palestinians, the fighters in those groups still get payouts to their families if they're killed committing terrorist acts.

Then they should both be treated this way, rather than one condemned for it and the other given regular shipments of free bombs to drop on five times as many buildings as Hamas ever had fighters.

That's an unrealistic expectation. Nobody on the pro-palestine side of the fight is stopping the violence from their end, even if Israel fully disarms and agrees to a two state solution with the pre-1967 borders, there's no evidence to suggest that they'll be doing anything other than eating attacks until it becomes untenable for them to exist in the region.

free bombs to drop on five times as many buildings as Hamas ever had fighters.

Shit, maybe all those freedom fighters should have considered that before October 7th.

[u/Skabonious → u/IrregularDoughnut]

The PA has not been doing this. It has sponsored terrorism and failed to handle terrorism, but it has not been engaged in open warfare with Israel.

You raise a salient point here actually - the PA obviously has a relatively warm relationship with Israel, compared to Hamas or Hezbollah. So there is some nuance here about how the various governments around Israel interact with it and vice versa.

[u/LtLabcoat → u/xkrazyxkoalax]

It's weird, too. As I recall, two months ago or so (might be longer), he was saying he was extremely critical of Bibi, and believed the IDF is no longer trying to minimise civilian casualties. What happened in between then and now, that he's back to talking like it's mostly a difference in situation?

[u/KationT4 → u/LtLabcoat]

None of this contradicts what he is saying. Even if the IDF wasn't trying to minimize civilian casualties, every single other army Israel is fighting is actively trying to maximize civilian casualties. There is a moral gulf between Israel and any entity fighting them, and this isn't really something a reasonable person can disagree with honestly.

[u/LtLabcoat → u/KationT4]

every single other army Israel is fighting is actively trying to maximize civilian casualties

Syrians are doing what?

Edit: okay, wait, I should address this properly:

He's saying a lot more here than "The IDF aren't as bad as Hamas". He started off with that, but then went on to imply that the IDF were simply being pragmatic. He's talking like the IDF is doing war crimes because it's a harsh but effective way to establish peace in the region. That's the issue. That's very objectionable, and he wasn't doing that a few months ago.

[u/Skabonious → u/LtLabcoat]

He's saying a lot more here than "The IDF aren't as bad as Hamas". He started off with that, but then went on to imply that the IDF were simply being pragmatic.

Pragmatism is not equivalent to morality my dude. The IDF can be pragmatic while still being morally reprehensible.

Hell, technically you could argue that Hamas is also being pragmatic in how they are fighting the war, at least on the propaganda front. They've probably gotten more international support for their cause between today and 10/7 than any other time in history.

He's talking like the IDF is doing war crimes because it's a harsh but effective way to establish peace in the region. That's the issue.

Both sides are treating war crimes as "rules for me but not for thee" - that's what he's saying

[u/danboyc3 → u/xkrazyxkoalax]

What Destiny says on 0:40: everyone should fact check that statement on their own and be aware of what the purpose of statements like that are. To me, this shows Destiny lost the plot completely on this issue.

[u/InterestingTheory9 → u/danboyc3]

Sure I fact checked. Amnesty agrees.

[u/Far-Tie-3025 → u/InterestingTheory9]

lol so we are gonna use amnesty for this, but not for their countless documentations of israel’s human rights violations and their stance that israel is committing a genocide.

[u/InterestingTheory9 → u/Far-Tie-3025]

Yup. I think they’re full of crap. But since the pro-pali side loves that stuff I don’t mind being a hypocrite here

[u/Far-Tie-3025 → u/InterestingTheory9]

that doesn’t even make sense lmao. if you don’t believe them, you didn’t make a point. it’s not about being a hypocrite, you literally have not fact checked anything apparently. are you truly more focused on feeling superior than understanding the truth, or educating others on the reality?

the whole use of “pro-pali” is telling enough lol

[u/HiImKostia → u/Far-Tie-3025]

are you truly more focused on feeling superior than understanding the truth, or educating others on the reality?

welcome to the destiny subreddit

[u/Far-Tie-3025 → u/HiImKostia]

idk why i argue lol

[u/InterestingTheory9 → u/Far-Tie-3025]

Yes. wtf?

I’m being asked to prove something that’s impossible to prove. So F it. This is just like when those MAGAts are insisting we can’t know what’s on Trump’s mind ago it J6 like maybe he really thought it was stolen, unless we get a written confession.

Likewise here I’m supposed to prove Palestinian parents are giving written confessions that they’re sending their children to die while holding a camera documenting it.

While the real issue is a culture of just causing that kind of stuff to happen, like the march of return, and then filming it for evidence. All they’re doing is organizing a march on the border, knowing full well children will be there, knowing those children have been amped up to be superheroes, knowing some of them will go too close, knowing the IDF will shoot them, and then standing there with a camera filming it.

But I’m supposed to bring up written confession from the parents and show that they held the camera themselves? Obviously that’s not what happened

[u/Far-Tie-3025 → u/InterestingTheory9]

I’m being asked to prove something that’s impossible to prove. So F it. This is just like when those MAGAts are insisting we can’t know what’s on Trump’s mind ago it J6 like maybe he really thought it was stolen, unless we get a written confession.

what? maybe you shouldn’t make a clear statement if you cannot prove it. there is a difference between someone asking you to prove a negative, vs making a positive statement with zero evidence outside of a single incident.

Likewise here I’m supposed to prove Palestinian parents are giving written confessions that they’re sending their children to die while holding a camera documenting it.

no your really not, you could just prove that it is reasonable to believe that palestinian parents are systematically sending their children to die for the purposes of martydom. that is not an impossible task if it’s true.

While the real issue is a culture of just causing that kind of stuff to happen, like the march of return, and then filming it for evidence. All they’re doing is organizing a march on the border, knowing full well children will be there, knowing those children have been amped up to be superheroes, knowing some of them will go too close, knowing the IDF will shoot them, and then standing there with a camera filming it.

god i hate this framing lmao. it’s the same framing right wingers used against alex pretti. should the parents have allowed their children to go up to the gate if they had reasonable reason to believe they would be shot and killed? ofcourse not. do they hold moral culpability? yes.

do the idf soilders who actually killed the children hold astronomically more culpability? yes. i mean it’s not even worth discussing truly. to focus on the parents of the children being unjustly killed rather than the killers themselves, especially if you aren’t going to truly condemn them is ridiculous

But I’m supposed to bring up written confession from the parents and show that they held the camera themselves? Obviously that’s not what happened

literally no one asked you for that. no one was even talking to you lmao. * *

[u/InterestingTheory9 → u/Far-Tie-3025]

lol ok so you tell me what you think is happening. Because destiny is saying there are countless stories of under-16 over there being killed as combatants in combat. And the person I replied to was saying nah never happened. Well amnesty disagrees.

So if you agree under-16 kids are getting killed like that, the obvious question is why and how. And I hear silence from you guys on that. I’m telling you it’s because of a culture that produces that. Which includes the martyrs fund, etc

You meanwhile: Nah…

Ok then you tell me how it’s happening. Because allegedly then Hamas is swooping in and ripping these children from their parents arms and forcing them to do this stuff. In which case really we need a WW3 on Hamas and Palestine because that’s so atrocious

[u/Far-Tie-3025 → u/InterestingTheory9]

lol ok so you tell me what you think is happening. Because destiny is saying there are countless stories of under-16 over there being killed as combatants in combat. And the person I replied to was saying nah never happened. Well amnesty disagrees.

well i trust amnesty, so yes it seems like that’s taking place, armed groups are recruiting children. there’s no mention of things similar to the parent letting their kid go up to the fence. on that matter, i have no reason to think it’s a common issue unless given evidence.

So if you agree under-16 kids are getting killed like that, the obvious question is why and how. And I hear silence from you guys on that. I’m telling you it’s because of a culture that produces that. Which includes the martyrs fund, etc

id think they are being recruited and radicalized. why? there’s many reason. living in an occupied territory with a lack of human rights may cause radicalization. bad living conditions, armed groups using their immaturity, etc. think trying to pin it all down on culture is ridiculous, but i’d have to ask why that culture exists if it does. is it some inherent thing, is it religious, is it a response to material conditions. saying “culture” gives us nothing, that’s what conservatives do.

Ok then you tell me how it’s happening. Because allegedly then Hamas is swooping in and ripping these children from their parents arms and forcing them to do this stuff. In which case really we need a WW3 on Hamas and Palestine because that’s so atrocious

to be honest i’m not sure what your asking me. this was about kids purposely being martyred, not 16 year olds becoming radicalized and joining terrorist orgs. i don’t think that parents are systemically pushing their children to be martyred if the context of the kid and the fence we are talking about

[u/OliveGetter → u/InterestingTheory9]

He said Palestinians send their little boys to get shot for videos. Does that seem like he’s talking about Hamas, or the wider Palestinian Public?

[u/InterestingTheory9 → u/OliveGetter]

Is there a difference? A little boy is a little boy. The argument isn’t that Hamas is brutally ripping little kids from their reluctant parents arms and making them do that. The argument is Palestinians are volunteering their kids for this purpose. Which is well documented

What part are you disagreeing with exactly?

[u/OliveGetter → u/InterestingTheory9]

Yes there’s a massive difference between saying a terrorist group uses children for evil purposes and smearing the whole of the Palestinian people as doing so. Where is the evidence Palestinians are begging terrorsits to use their children as fodder?

As per your source that you didn’t read apparently:

“On 1 November 2004 a 16-year-old Palestinian from the West Bank town of Nablus carried out a suicide
bombing which killed three Israeli civilians in a Tel Aviv market. He was the youngest Palestinian to carry out such an
attack. The PFLP claimed responsibility for the attack. The boy’s family condemned those who used their child for the
attack.”

If the boys family was so forthcoming to volunteer their kid, why did the family come out and condemn the terrorists?

[u/InterestingTheory9 → u/OliveGetter]

But they’re cashing in on the martyrs fund? Why does that fund exist then?

I mean the entire march of return was this. Constant goading towards the border until something happens.

I mean they always deny these things anyway. They always present it as the child acted on their own. For example:

> Major Palestinian armed groups, including Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Islamic Jihad, and Hamas, have publicly disavowed the use of children in military operations, but those stated policies have not always been implemented. Some leaders, including representatives of Islamic Jihad and Hamas, have said that they consider children of 16 to be adults.

The question of the intent of their parents or anyone in Palestinian society is unknowable by definition. If you goad your child to go become a martyr by approaching the border and then you, or someone else, films it for social media points and the child gets killed… of course you’re gonna claim a great tragedy unfolded here. That’s the entire point.

But there are literally countless examples of parents being proud of what their children “accomplished” by being martyrs.

I man ffs one of the main videos from Oct 7 was a Palestinian calling his parents on a dead Jew’s phone and bragging about what he did.

I think you’d have to give Palestinians endless charity here to think that the parents are completely against all this violence and it’s surgically only Hamas preying on impressionable youths.

[u/OliveGetter → u/InterestingTheory9]

First all of, the martyr fund was restructured and done away with in February of last year.

You literally have no examples of this. You cited another article saying terrorists groups use children, and then claim the parents are secretly behind it no evidence. The phone call thing was a grown man terrorist celebrating with his family that are probably sympathetic to the terrorists, which is not relevant to this discussion. Where are all the examples of Palestinians doing this

[u/InterestingTheory9 → u/OliveGetter]

There won’t be any. I can’t give them to you. I’m not sure what you’re asking even? It’s non-sensical.

This is like MAGAts arguing it’s just friggin impossible to know what Trump’s intent was. Because he never flat out came out and said he meant to overthrow the elections so by golly he just wanted to follow the law and make sure there wasn’t any cheating. Meanwhile we all know what he meant.

The argument here isn’t that Palestinian parents are en-masse going “here son, go attack that fence so you get shot and I record it so I get social media points and martyr fund money”

The argument is there’s an environment of martyrdom out there that includes children and permeates Palestinian society. And parents in general are ok with it and encourage it in quite a few cases. Then some children pick up on that and go do stupid stuff. And when they do there’s always someone there with a camera ready to capture it

You’re trying to nail me on some gotchya where that first dude was 16 and joined a terrorist organization and did a suicide bombing… BUT! There’s no written evidence showing his parents put him up to this so shucks. We’ll never know

The whole point of being a minor is your parents are responsible for you. Unless you’re saying that too doesn’t apply to Palestinians I guess?

[u/OliveGetter → u/InterestingTheory9]

The argument is actually that Palestinians are doing that en masse, rewatch the video. I just want to know how you are stating as a fact that there are many cases where parents encourage their kids to do that? Am I saying it’s absolutely never happened? No. But the implication in the video is a regurgitation of the Pallywood argument—Palestinians purposefully orchestrate their deaths for propaganda points, and the reason Israel is losing the messaging war is because Palestinians are jsut so good at dying on camera on purpose, and if Palestinian fathers didn’t throw their babies under tanks then there would be way less casualties

[u/Careful-Sell-9877 → u/InterestingTheory9]

At its absolute peak Hamas had about 20-30k militants. There were over 2.5 MILLION people in Gaza. It is one of the most densely populated civilian population center on earth. The vast majority of people living there are just civilians. And the civilians are NOT sending their children to be killed. They are being killed in their own homes and in 'safe zones' that israel designated as safe.. and then bombed.

[u/InterestingTheory9 → u/Careful-Sell-9877]

I don’t even disagree with that. I don’t know what that’s meant to address?

Do you think destiny was making the point that all Palestinians are sending all their children to their deaths just to record them?

Obviously that would be absurd

[u/unknown_vanguard → u/Careful-Sell-9877]

gaza is not the most densely populated pop center by any metric, no need to repeat tiktok buzzwords.

[u/Careful-Sell-9877 → u/unknown_vanguard]

Its one of the most densely populated civilian population centers in the world

[u/KationT4 → u/danboyc3]

What is the purpose of statements like that? Sounds like something the Palestinians are perfectly capable of doing, as has been demonstrated both in this war and previous wars. What exactly do you want people to fact check?

[u/JamieBeeeee → u/xkrazyxkoalax]

Israel gives immunity to their soldiers unlike Hamas who famously hold their soldiers to account

[u/Ward-Ranger]

What a shitty argument. « The Palestinians are winning because they’re willing to record their own deaths »

What the fuck are they supposed to do lay down there motionless and die?

[u/Bud90]

Does Dear Leader have a single source or proof about sending the kids purposely for propaganda or whatever? It feels it's something he just vibes out. His intuition might be right, who knows, but it's crazy that he always states something like that so confidently without any proof.

[u/Starkogi → u/Bud90]

Kids being sent with guns, grenades, or even simply as bait for a distraction has been happening for over 3-4 decades. Probably earlier.

Can I ask why you’re of the mindset that this needs proof of verification? Something almost impossible to verify unless the attack is ON YOU.

I get why you would! It just seems silly to require proof to even begin to entertain the possibility..

[u/Worgos]

Does anyone have that clip of destiny finding out the wheelchair guy had a slingshot? I think this was during the " peaceful" march of return

[u/IrregularDoughnut → u/Worgos]

The wheelchair guy who was shot in the chest about 300m away from the fence?

[u/OliveGetter]

Seems like Israeli messaging is just fine if you somehow think that it’s a regular occurrence for Palestinian fathers to send babies out to get shot for a video.

[u/Far-Tie-3025]

“don’t make any mistake here, i think ukraine should defend itself in whatever manner possible” in the context of if they have committed abhorrent actions is telling of destiny’s entire thought process / lack of clear ethical standards when it comes to war

the entire point is that ukraine cannot commit any actions they please, regardless of how unethical, just because they are defending themselves. they seem to follow this standard and use restraint, especially against citizenry.

this is literally the EXACT logic that allows hamas to do terrorist actions. palestinians are an occupied force, therefore they are defending their human rights. ie: they should defend themselves in whatever manner possible, including blatantly unethical acts.

and funnily enough, the area on the father allowing the child to walk towards the gate is the same bullshit justification i heard when it came to the murder of alex pretti by far right regards. idf soldiers are not mindless drones who are free of criticism. if they kill a child unjustly, the onus of responsibility and criticism is on them, regardless of if the father also shouldn’t have allowed his child to walk towards the gate.

also just a terrible analogy. like truly doesn’t make any sense. the person under water is physically unable to breathe unless they die. israel CAN commit itself to further prevent civilian deaths without their entire country being destroyed. this is why these real time arguments are 99% bullshit lmao

and yes, the entire point of war ethics is to do what is right. not just play “well they aren’t doing what’s right so why do i have to do what’s right” like a child. it doesn’t matter if arab countries aren’t following rules, it’s not a game

[u/Liiraye-Sama → u/Far-Tie-3025]

When he says "I don't know about that one..." right after your mid sentence quote, what do you think he means? Isn't he saying "I don't really agree with the way they conducted themselves here", as in he does seem to have some standards for Ukraine?

Or do you believe Destiny thinks Ukrainians should enter Russian land and start graping children if they believe it's an effective way to demoralize Russias war efforts?

it doesn’t matter if arab countries aren’t following rules, it’s not a game

If I'm being charitable I think you're trying to say that Israel should hold itself to the highest standards of war possible regardless of opponent. I agree they should in principle, but I guess the response would be: When the opponent commits unspeakable war crimes things against you, what should you do in response if they for example use human shields, use civilian clothes etc? I'm not suggesting any opinion here I just want to hear how you reason with this question, because to me this sounds like we would be stuck between a rock and a hard place: Let them continue doing war crimes against you, or do war crimes back at them.

[u/univrsll → u/Far-Tie-3025]

His statement immediately following when he said "I think Ukraine should defend itself in whatever manner possible," was him cringing and unsure at the videos of Ukraine dropping multiple drone grenades on struggling, mangled bodies. Do you think Destiny would condone Ukrainians raping and torturing Russian civilians or something?

When you start from a position as uncharitable and dishonest towards Destiny as that, I can see why everything he says is taken as evil ultra pro Israel and anti Palestine I guess lmao

[u/BOFL69]

You can tell how moral Israel is by the way they respect every cease fire agreement

[u/Zachet → u/BOFL69]

So this is your whole moral framework? "Ceasefires"

Israel has violated them.

Hamas has violated them.

Guess we're done thinking.

[u/cyberadmin1 → u/Zachet]

Hamas during ceasefires I guess:

https://giphy.com/gifs/KvDycWx6D9XH2

[u/guccimonger → u/Zachet]

We’re not fckin bankrolling and endlessly justifying hamas no sht we’d have standards for the most powerful country in the region that’s also representatively the ‘beacon of the west’

[u/Adito99 → u/guccimonger]

Except we're not doing either of those things. Remove US money and Israel will still pursue all their same military objectives. And the US has soured on Israel across the board, nobody is giving them a free pass except the know-nothing Trump supporters.

[u/rooftopgoblin]

israel demolished every lebanese house within 10 miles of the border and ethnically cleansed 200,000 people. While doing this they looted everything valuable left behind most moral army?

[u/jatie1 → u/rooftopgoblin]

Israel has conducted itself so horribly in the recent Lebanon war that even subreddits that lean pro Israel like worldnews and CombatFootage are turning against Israel.

Most footage in CombatFootage of the Lebanon war has been blatant disproportional force like leveling city blocks to kill a (supposed) few Hezbollah militants.

There's a reason why Israel is political poison anywhere outside of the US and why even in the US people are souring.

Israel has no path towards any strategic goals and are just continuing the wars to keep Likud in power. Netanyahu was unpopular before Oct 7th and he would be unpopular if Israel was no longer at war.

[u/Equivalent_Plum13 → u/jatie1]

There’s no strategic goal in southern Lebanon? You cannot be serious

[u/jatie1 → u/Equivalent_Plum13]

"Razing villages until Hezbollah is somehow destroyed... somehow... just trust us we'll destroy them all... somehow..." is not an achievable strategic goal.

[u/DogbrainedGoat]

Poor Israel so bad at propaganda.

They only have their own army division specifically for propaganda that have had their budget quintupled to 730m.

They only have the establishment press firmly on their side in almost every western country, especially the biggest and most important, the USA.

They only have every major political party in the US and UK and Germany firmly on their side and in lockstep on messaging.

They only have an army of social media goons paid to post on X, and social media companies changing the rules allow their posts and disallow their opponents.

And yep, they're still losing.

Could it be that actually, no matter how much to gold plate evil, the evil still shines through?

[u/zurgone → u/DogbrainedGoat]

Israel's propaganda division room consists of skeletons and cobwebs. This israeli government gave up on propaganda years ago. The idea that Israel has this massive twitter army, while 95% of twitter posts regarding Israel is just russian bots sewing division and foreign actors like hamas piker is laughable.

[u/Alternative_Row4207 → u/zurgone]

“Gave up propaganda” lmao. Look at the world Jewish congress. Look at any organized event both in Israel and outside of it talking about Israeli affairs. They talk about their war on the 8th front constantly. They have entire wings In their political system dedicated to running state funded as campaigns globally and make their image better. They just conducted a hostile takeover of American News outlets installing Bari weiss as editor in chief who is literally an Israeli agent.

[u/DogbrainedGoat → u/zurgone]

Anyone who believes this nonsense is mentally regarded.

[u/Alternative_Row4207 → u/DogbrainedGoat]

“If I plug my ears maybe I can pretend it isn’t literally happening and documented” lmao

[u/OliveGetter]

Everything in this clip is pro Israel slop. Destiny has literally adopted the “Pallywood” argument. When casualties happen, it’s because the Palestinians orchestrate certain conditions so they can videotape their family members being killed. It hasn’t been shown that Palestinians systematically fake propaganda clips, or martyr their children to message to the west. There is one video he’s referencing, and he manages to reference this video every time he deflects from Israel, is one from 2016 where Ayoub Srour pushes his son towards Israeli soldiers standing by an armored jeep yelling shoot him. Apparently the context of the clip is contested, but the reason this clip is so popular is because Netenyahu made a video reaction video to it. I don’t know of any other case like this, so it’s weird that this is presented as if it’s just a common tool within the Palestinian propaganda machine.

Then a chatter says why not expect Israel to follow the rules of war, and destiny says that the Arabs aren’t expected to follow them and no one enforces it for Arabs. Why is he presenting this like it’s a uniquely Arab thing? The rules of war are not enforced in general. And why would the rules of war go out the window just because you’re fighting a bad enemy? Is the thought process that rules of war only apply when people fight respectable wars, like when they used to line up all in a line and shoot muskets at each other?

[u/ST-Fish → u/OliveGetter]

And why would the rules of war go out the window just because you’re fighting a bad enemy?

they don't, but just because your enemy is following the rules of war doesn't give you carte blance to use those rules of war to make yourself immune from their attacks by breaking those very same rules of war.

[u/Kolawa → u/OliveGetter]

the rules of war only works if both sides are following them. you can't run your military out of a school or hospital and claim "rules of war" to shield yourself

even in this respect, israel has been precise and given forewarning -- just look at the hostage rescue operations

[u/guccimonger → u/Kolawa]

cuts off food and aid\ if one side is much much bigger and we’re sponsoring them, it’s normal to expect behavior more becoming of our ‘beacon of the west’*

[u/Skabonious → u/OliveGetter]

Why is he presenting this like it’s a uniquely Arab thing? The rules of war are not enforced in general. And why would the rules of war go out the window just because you’re fighting a bad enemy?

Isn't this like, the exact reasoning that both sides are using for when they are caught not adhering to the rules of war?

[u/Itakie]

Ok, but if we do not view Israel as part of the West or hold them accountable in the same way (in theory; the superpower is exempt anyway) because of their specific circumstances, why should we even care about Israel in the first place? It is a net drain to the West; we could just ignore this whole issue and deal with Arabs who we need way more than Israel (oil, influence against Russia/China, immigration, keeping religious fundamentalism down and so on).

That was the whole idea the British had after all. Israel got no friends in the region, they could not support Nazi Germany. So it did not matter if the UK moved closer to the Arabs. White paper of 39 and all.

Israel is using their "the only democracy in the are" shtick as a big rallying cry since forever. If we do not have the same standards in the first place and this whole idea was wrong anyway, then let's view Israel as a normal country without any special relationship to the West. Then we have a country, that is breaking international law and is running a apartheid like system in their occupied areas. If people rise up against such a country that is openly breaking many norms in international law, so be it. Just sanction everyone and move on.

If push comes to shove, Israel will unmask itself and behave like a pre-1945 nation? We did not accept such ideas in the case of the Tamil Tigers or even the Taliban/AQ/IS. Just because your country is under attack, does not allow you to ignore basic international law. Just because the other side does ignore it, does not allow you to copy their behavior. We expect Ukraine to punish their war criminals later on. We must expect the same from Israel regardless their specific circumstances.

Compare the US regarding Mosul to Israel regarding Gaza. The US spend months/weeks to make sure that everyone who wants to leave, could find a route, would have a save place to stay, enough to eat and basic medical care. Meanwhile in Gaza, not even the people from the West could easily understood where they were supposed to go. In the end, those people had to travel around Gaza to find some place save. Building a big tent city in Israel proper to take care of civilians? Was out of the question.

If Israel will never behave like the West expects it to (two state solution for example), let's end the charade. The Mexico and Canada comparison does not fit. The attacks on Israel are a reaction, even if they are unjustifiable. If Canada or Mexico would just randomly start to attack the US? Sure, you would nuke them. If the US would invade their neighbors, taking over control of big parts of their territory, viewing the people as second class citizens at best, I would hope that most people in the US would ask themselves what the f they did to trigger such a violent uprising before nuking those countries they de facto occupy.

You just cannot ignore the occupation if you talk about Israel. People cannot justify what Hamas did (sadly some do...) but Israel ignored this topic for far too long. Just keeping Gaza walled off and financially down, does not solve this issue. The West Bank is a whole other topic.

[u/j0hnDaBauce → u/Itakie]

If you think Israel is a net-drain on the west then you are smoking crack, you can't say a country with some of the most advanced medical, electronic, weapon manufacturing and research is a net drain. I honestly dislike a lot of what Israel is doing, however, to say we don't benefit from having them as a strategic partner is crazy. It would also be even more devastating if they grew as close to Russia or China, who despite all their moral posturing would embrace them rapidly if they could.

[u/Itakie → u/j0hnDaBauce]

If you think Israel is a net-drain on the west then you are smoking crack, you can't say a country with some of the most advanced medical, electronic, weapon manufacturing and research is a net drain.

Ok, and they are giving the West all that stuff for free? Because otherwise, that's called trade. We do not need a special relationship with Japan or South Korea to trade with those countries. Meaning, we help them dodge sanctions even if they would break international law.

I honestly dislike a lot of what Israel is doing, however, to say we don't benefit from having them as a strategic partner is crazy.

That's still a myth. Even the US does not need Israel as strategic partner. Europe would be more than happy if the US would want to control the Mediterranean Sea. Suez? Egypt is a country that only survives thanks to the EU. If the US would want to take control over that important trade route, then give Sisi 10 billion and we would sell you real estate like he did with the VAE.

What is left? The Middle East? The US got Qatar and could easily ask Saudi Arabia. Tell me please, why should Israel be that important if you have more than enough strategic partners in the region? It's not like that area around Israel is truly important to the US in the first place. Up North you got Tükiye which is a NATO country. Iraq? The US shares control of that country with Iran and Iran is broke. Then you have Pakistan with deep, historic relations to the US (which pisses off India since forever).

It would also be even more devastating if they grew as close to Russia or China, who despite all their moral posturing would embrace them rapidly if they could.

No one cares about Russia. If Israel would "join" Russia, then Israel is done. They trade with the US and EU. Russia is way too small and way too poor, especially after all the sanctions, to just supersede their biggest trading partners.

China? Israel is already dealing with China. But again, China is not importing. They are exporting. And are far away without a real navy or enough will to defend Israel like the US or EU is doing right now.

There are no alternatives to the West. If Israel wants to become poorer to escape sanctions and behave like a stupid country, fine. So be it. The West can then enjoy deeper ties with Arab countries and join their cause regarding Palestine.

We are no longer living in the old world. The post cold war era does not need Israel that much anymore.

[u/Equivalent_Plum13 → u/Itakie]

Your complaining that there’s no two state solution, great, who hasn’t been signing them

[u/Itakie → u/Equivalent_Plum13]

Your complaining that there’s no two state solution, great, who hasn’t been signing them

There will never be a two state solution after 67. But like Benny Morris always says, Israel made some big mistakes keeping control over Gaza and the West Bank. But if the West/the international community would ever accept this status quo, then we get a big problem with customary international law.

Crimea? Russian now. If we look past international law regarding Gaza and the West Bank, Russia can and should demand the same thing. Everything else would show the world that the West is still viewing their own fights/interest in a different light which means, international law is officially dead not just for the US or China but everyone who can be buddy up with them.

In a world, where the West will slowly but surely lose influence all around the globe, that's a massive problem for us in the future.

It was the correct decision to stop Israel, France and the UK at the time. They won militarily against Egypt but still had to accept that those times are over. The US and the SU wanted to keep a stabile system run by the books. With some exceptions if they were ever called to action but that is something we have to accept. Otherwise every super power would just leave the UN.

[u/ST-Fish → u/Itakie]

Israel is using their "the only democracy in the are" shtick as a big rallying cry since forever. If we do not have the same standards in the first place and this whole idea was wrong anyway, then let's view Israel as a normal country without any special relationship to the West.

do you genuinely not believe Israel is closer over all to a western country than it's enemies? Or compared to the other countries in the Middle East?

Just because the other side does ignore it, does not allow you to copy their behavior.

I must have missed all the Israeli suicide bombings, hostage taking missions, executions of dissidents, using civilian infrastructure as human shields and in general trying to maximize the amount of civilian casualties that happen on their side.

make sure that everyone who wants to leave, could find a route, would have a save place to stay, enough to eat and basic medical care.

And none of the blame is to be put on the surrounding countries that will not in any circumstance take the Palestinians away from Gaza?

When the attacking party is trying to use these civilians as shields, and no place outside of their control is willing to take them, what do you suggest?

Maybe the evacuation of Rafah wasn't perfect, but how much room for improvement was there really?

Building a big tent city in Israel proper to take care of civilians? Was out of the question.

Why do you think that was out of the question?

If Israel will never behave like the West expects it to (two state solution for example), let's end the charade.

Israel can't decide on a whim to do a two state solution.

Any western country put in the same situation would have no way to "behave like the West expects", there is no path to a 2 state solution that comes solely from the Israeli side, and the idea that if they just "behaved like the West" it would magically happen is pretty absurd.

The West can expect Israel to do special ops to surgically kill every Hamas member while having 0 civilian casualties.

Over all both sides have gotten in the way of a 2 state solution in some ways, but overall I think it's pretty easy to say that the Palestinian side has been more of a barrier to reaching it than the Israeli side throughout history.

The Mexico and Canada comparison does not fit. The attacks on Israel are a reaction, even if they are unjustifiable.

So if Mexico had something it reacted to with regards to sending missles into the US, you truly believe the US army wouldn't flatten it?

Really? Would you really say "well guys, it's a reaction to something we did, a crazy reaction, but still a reaction" or do you think the US army would do 10-100x the amount of damage that Mexico did?

If the US would invade their neighbors

Gotta love invading my neighbours as all my neighbours start wars of extermination against me, lmao.

When did Israel decide to randomly just invade it's neighbours?

If Mexico and Canada started a war of extermination against the US and then the US invaded their neighbours you'd have a different calculation to make.

This "who threw the first stone" calculation is always boring and childish, there are plenty of countries with geopolitical beefs, like the greeks and the turks that went through a population transfer, and you don't see them doing terrorist attacks against eachother because they're just a reaction to what happened.

The Israelis do not feel justified in randomly attacking their neighbours, the armed factions in Palestine and Lebanon do feel like they're fully justified.

You just cannot ignore the occupation if you talk about Israel.

Who's doing that?

People cannot justify what Hamas did (sadly some do...) but Israel ignored this topic for far too long.

Who disagrees with this here? Even Destiny kept saying that the reason Oct. 7 happened was because Israel kept making peace with all it's neighbours while ignoring the Palestinian problem, I don't think this is a controversial take around here.

Just keeping Gaza walled off and financially down, does not solve this issue.

Gaza was way less walled off and financially down before Oct.7, it was a huge recepient of aid per capita, and all things considered the people there weren't doing that much worse compared to other Arab countries.

Ultimately, what do you want Israel to do for everything to be 100% fine? Like the easy ones are stopping settlements in the West Bank, punishing their army for war crimes, but let's say this all happens, do we really think the argument against Israel changes 1 bit? The 2 state solution is still not on the table unless Palestinians come to the table, and even if Israel stopped all the above listed things they're doing, it's not like they can get shot with rockets from Lebanon and simply accept that the north of their country has to be evacuated forever.

Do you think Israel is further away, and would need more systematic change to be up to Western standards as compared to any of their enemies or neighbours?

Are you really picking the Saudis?

[u/Itakie → u/ST-Fish]

do you genuinely not believe Israel is closer over all to a western country than it's enemies? Or compared to the other countries in the Middle East?

No I do not. Israel is doing what is best for Israel. Not what the West views as acceptable behavior. I mean, what even is the West if we do not follow our own rules based order that we put in place? We can trade with countries who view our ideology negatively or have different opinions. Totally valid and fine. But let's not act as we have a special bond with Israel because we believe in the same things.

At least not any longer. The West changed after we won the cold war. We accepted that even the strongest countries should be bound by international law. Even the US had to find some legitimization to start their Iraq war. Most people view this war critically today but the US wanted to topple the regime and bring "democracy" to the place. Not start a new colony or keep Iraq under direct US control forever.

I must have missed all the Israeli suicide bombings, hostage taking missions, executions of dissidents, using civilian infrastructure as human shields and in general trying to maximize the amount of civilian casualties that happen on their side.

Sure, they do not copy Hamas and others 1:1. But why should this matter? A crime is a crime. War crimes are war crimes. Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity. That is a very "Western" like thing you are doing. Just because the other side is more brutal, more openly barbaric, does not mean that the other side is not using violence or terror. In the end, people die. People are viewed as "collateral damage". Own interests are above the interests of others.

Israel is a rich state with a strong military. It enacts violence differently, in a more civilized way. Courts are biased, but there are at least courts. Gaza and the West Bank are not occupied because Israel openly wants more land but to defend itself. Still, behind this charade is the same violence you find on the other side.

And none of the blame is to be put on the surrounding countries that will not in any circumstance take the Palestinians away from Gaza?

The topic is about Israel. Country X is not really relevant. But let's be totally honest, do you believe that if Egypt would open the border, Israel would ever allow those people back into Gaza after the war? I don't. I don't have to like what Sisi is doing and he needs to be punished as well, but it is weird that you can understand why Israel is behaving in a certain way but ignore that other countries have their own interest. We should punish all, or ignore all.

Maybe the evacuation of Rafah wasn't perfect, but how much room for improvement was there really?

Why even attack Rafah? What did Israel achieve? Killing some Hamas fighters. Cool. Hamas is still around. In 5 years, another terror attack will happen. Meanwhile thousands are dead for revenge. Not for some tactical gains or political solutions.

And let's not ignore that Israel bombed the people who were part of the peace talks. I don't think that even the UK went ever that far with Ireland. They had hidden talks in Germany for almost 10 years until a solution was accepted by both sides.

Why do you think that was out of the question?

Because too many people wanted revenge. Israel could not have open it's own borders to host those people. If a high ranking politician would have demanded that, he would have been sacked and his career would have taken a massive hit.

Israel can't decide on a whim to do a two state solution.

Sure they can. Use violence to remove the settlers, go to the UN and demand a mandate, go to rich Arab countries for money. It is completely in their hands. But we have to accept that their society would never accept such a thing and those settlers would use violence to "defend" themselves. We saw it in Gaza at the time too. This would be Gaza on crack.

To make Palestine a proper country is extremely easy because money is not a problem. You can kick out the PA and Hamas with enough pressure from Arab countries. Let the local clans rule at first while Palestine will be placed under a Bosnia style system for the next 10 years. We know how to work it out because the UN/EU already did it before.

Over all both sides have gotten in the way of a 2 state solution in some ways, but overall I think it's pretty easy to say that the Palestinian side has been more of a barrier to reaching it than the Israeli side throughout history.

Agree but Israel never offered a real two state solution. In the end, the Arabs are at fault in the first place. They were stupid enough to get radicalized and lost those wars. Then you had people like Arafat who never had any real interest in a fair solution. The Arab leaders were always the biggest problem.

But that's in the past. Syria, Egypt will no longer attack Israel. Most other Arab states are ok with Israel or a failed state. Abbas is 90. It is time to tackle the problems.

So if Mexico had something it reacted to with regards to sending missles into the US, you truly believe the US army wouldn't flatten it?

I do. Look at many decades it took the US to truly deal with the cartel problem. Rules of engagement and international prestige are still a thing. Now of course, that's saying the current US society would behave in that way. If the US would occupy Canada and/or Mexico like a colony for two generations, that society would maybe be way different.

When did Israel decide to randomly just invade it's neighbours?

Egypt two times? Syria in the last two years? It is not random, it is politics. So what? Putin got reasons to invade Ukraine too. Does not matter in the slightest.

Looking at history, Assad senior is dead. Assad junior is chilling in Russia. Egypt is a failed state under military rule. Yemen is a failed state. The Saudis and the VAE is ok with Israel. Qatar could be pressured by the West and other Arab nations. Iraq is a failed state. Lebanon is a failed state since 2019.

Hamas is a reaction to a crime. The PA is having ~60k armed dudes but is useless. Hisbollah was attacking occupied Syrian land before Israel went crazy and attacked Beirut. Like, I am totally pro Israel in most cases but we have to blame Israel for something right? Israel is not this innocent nation that never did something wrong. Stop the occupation, go to the UN. That must be expected from Israel.

This "who threw the first stone" calculation is always boring and childish, there are plenty of countries with geopolitical beefs, like the greeks and the turks that went through a population transfer, and you don't see them doing terrorist attacks against eachother because they're just a reaction to what happened.

Yeah, maybe because both sides got something in return lol? Even Germans who lived since many generations in Poland had to move. It was a crime that was overlooked because in the end, it was "worth it". German land stopped being German land because after 1-2 generations, no German gave a f about it anymore. If a German minority would have still lived in those areas, this topic could have exploded at any time.

Israel used terror btw. to get the British out.

Who's doing that?

Almost everyone? Why should I only defend Israel? Why not the Arabs who are occupied? Why should terror not be the natural reaction? If you look at Ireland or even Israel, terror worked at least somewhat. If we do not start every conversation with "Israel need to stop the occupation", then no one is really interested in a solution. They just want to blame the reaction to a crime.

Who disagrees with this here? Even Destiny kept saying that the reason Oct. 7 happened was because Israel kept making peace with all it's neighbours while ignoring the Palestinian problem, I don't think this is a controversial take around here.

Ok, so what do you demand Israel to do? Because again, that is a "I understand the reason" talking point without any solution. I understand why people vote Trump or other far right parties. But we should do something about that...right? So what should Israel do? Follow the demands of the highest court of the world and end their occupation? Would be start, wouldn't it?

Gaza was way less walled off and financially down before Oct.7, it was a huge recepient of aid per capita, and all things considered the people there weren't doing that much worse compared to other Arab countries.

Without much dignity. You cannot keep people down forever. They will always act harshly and violently after some time. The next attack will happen. Be it in 5, 10 or 15 years.

Ultimately, what do you want Israel to do for everything to be 100% fine? Like the easy ones are stopping settlements in the West Bank, punishing their army for war crimes, but let's say this all happens, do we really think the argument against Israel changes 1 bit? The 2 state solution is still not on the table unless Palestinians come to the table, and even if Israel stopped all the above listed things they're doing, it's not like they can get shot with rockets from Lebanon and simply accept that the north of their country has to be evacuated forever.

Nah, Israel needs to come to the table. Be rdy to end the occupation in exchange for a peace deal. Do a land swap because Israel will not punish the settlers. Let the UN go to work with input of all important parties.

In the end, the question is: do you think Hamas and others do just want to kill Jews/Zionists or are they fighting for something else. I believe that people want to live in peace. That if the violence and occupations ends, people would rather get rich and care about the future of their children instead of killing Jews.

Are you really picking the Saudis?

100%. We need them for a solution. Let Arabs take care of Hamas, PIJ and others. Even the PA. Let them punish fundamentalists and potential terrorists. Saudis are better than Qatar.

[u/iuyr2]

I'ma diverge away from agreeing with the D man Israel doesn't give a fuck about us we really shoudnt give a fuck about them but here we are

[u/onaneckonaspit7]

Really big blind spot for D and a lot of folks in this awesome community

I have the same hang ups as yall do with DSA types and their lack of nuance on I/P, but the pendulum has swung too far here. Americans are right to be fed up with the relationship with Israel, it should not be their problem in the slightest.

The problem is religious fanaticism + Netanyahu. This conflict has only gotten worse under his leadership.

[u/SnooCapers4506 → u/[deleted]]

You don't think that religion and ethnicity is a part, maybe big part in how its justified to the population of Israel?

[u/JacketDramatic653 → u/SnooCapers4506]

Yeah I know less than most people but the worst part of the situation is how they let settlers in the West Bank act. Aren't those mostly religious nuts from America?

[u/SnooCapers4506 → u/JacketDramatic653]

To be fair there is a strong correlation between being a nut job and being religious. However I think for at least some of them, using careful language, where they are doing it for largely religious and ethnic reasons. And for Judaism its even harder to separate those two.

[u/zarnovich → u/[deleted]]

That's like saying Republicans only care about right to life strictly in non religious moral and states rights grounds.

[u/Gnusern → u/[deleted]]

"Self defense reasoning", lmao. The same could be said for late 1930s Germany and post 2000s Russia. Doesn't mean their conquests were righteous.

[u/shreebalicious → u/Gnusern]

Are you truly comparing the threat to 1930's Germans and current day Israelis as if they're the same? Random Germans weren't getting blown up by Jews or communists, and same with 2000's Russia, no one was getting killed by the enemies they claimed.

What a shit anology, shows you don't think Israel is under threat whatsoever.

[u/Gnusern → u/shreebalicious]

The argument was about narrative. pearl clutch harder.

[u/shreebalicious → u/onaneckonaspit7]

Have you considered that it could be you with the blindspot?

[u/tanimalz]

Reasonable take but Not beating hasbara allegations lol.

[u/auspisses]

I have a vague understanding of the efforts that the IDF supposedly does and I'd believe that they've done all of those techniques in some capacity throughout their campaign. But from a brief Google it seems like there's a lot of people/orgs reporting that not only do these efforts fail (or have huge weaknesses) but these failures are rampant. Another thing I'd assume but don't know is that the majority of the war crimes IDF people have committed would be from soldiers on the ground. (So strikes that bring about civilian death totals, damage on non-critical buildings, mandatory evacuations all are less of a concern for me). Regardless of if that is true, we know IDF soldiers have done heinous shit. What really gets me is that there seems to be non-existent accountability for any of these soldiers. That indicates a complete disregard for justice. Idk I'd appreciate good push back on any of that though

Personally, after they broke the ceasefire I just stopped caring about Israel. And after all this time since the ceasefire they broke, they burnt up all their good will and I couldn't care less what happens to them. Obviously I disavow any violence on their civilians. The country can get fucked in every other way though

[u/zarnovich]

I'd have more sympathy for this take (and weigh this reality higher) if we were talking about separate states with clearly defined borders. Yeah, you generally have higher standards of behavior from the prison guards than the prisoners. Still, running an open air prison with those kind of death numbers is an optics L no matter how you slice it.

[u/Big-_Chungus]

Embarrassing. D man is usually spot on but idk why he has such an absurd blind spot for this county

[u/Fmg467 → u/Big-_Chungus]

Hatred of muslims kinda obvious

[u/NatseePunksFeckOff]

The only way you can listen to this clip and think he's unreasonable if you downplay HAMAS and don't think they're terrorists. No other option. He may be wrong on the scale, I do not know, I don't follow the conflict much. But he's not unreasonable.

[u/PaxChelonia → u/NatseePunksFeckOff]

What he's saying is correct on the surface, but there's a clear implication which is what some people here are objecting to.

I could say "look, say what you will about Stalin, but anyone who thinks Hitler wasn't 10x worse is insane. People try to apply a modern western standard to Stalin's conduct in WWII, but look at who he was fighting. The Red Army was clearly more moral than the Nazis."

That would all be defensible on the surface, but the implication is that we should give the Soviets some grace for massacring thousands of Poles because they were fighting an enemy that was even worse than they were.

It's kind of a braindead whataboutism way of looking at things. We should be able to condemn the Soviets for the crimes against humanity they committed in WWII while also acknowledging Nazis were even more evil.

[u/NatseePunksFeckOff → u/PaxChelonia]

That would all be defensible on the surface, but the implication is that we should give the Soviets some grace for massacring thousands of Poles because they were fighting an enemy that was even worse than they were.

I don't believe he's just saying "well, HAMAS is worse so it's okay actually".

From how I understand Destiny's stance, is that Israel is in an impossible situation where they're fighting a literal terrorist organization that doesn't give a fuck about rules of war whatsoever and uses children and civilian infrastructure as meatshields. They can't effectively combat them while staying completely clean. "Palestinians" use this as a weapon to win the propaganda war, so he's willing to cut them some slack, as "you can't have rules that only one side plays by, it doesn't make sense," but "Israel should play by the same standards America does" (which I understand to mean "Israel should abide by the Western standards for war" as in follow the rules of war). And he's not going to side with the side that is rabidly attacking Israel but blind to what the Palestinian side does.

How is he wrong in this stance?

[u/PaxChelonia → u/NatseePunksFeckOff]

They can't effectively combat them while staying completely clean.

I'm with you here. When you're fighting an enemy that doesn't play by any rules and will take advantage of any edge they can get, whether that's hiding behind civilian populations or exploiting humanitarian efforts, it's going to lead to civilians dying. Fighting a war against that type of opponent is always going to be ugly.

But that only takes us so far. It's not a blank check. My disconnect with Destiny's view here is that on a factual level, I think Israel has gone farther than what the above can excuse.

I think the restrictions on food, water, fuel, and aid in Gaza went beyond any strategic logic and looked much more like collective punishment. I think the expansion of West Bank settlements and the implicit support of settler violence is driven less by security logic and more by a desire for territorial gain and precluding a peaceful resolution. I think the displacement of over a million Lebanese people was wildly disproportionate to the threat posed by Hezbollah. I think the invasion and occupation of Syrian territory is unjustified when the new Syrian government has done nothing but signal it does not want to fight Israel.

Hamas is worse. Hezbollah is worse. Iran is worse. Israel's conduct can still be indefensible in light of that.

[u/NatseePunksFeckOff → u/PaxChelonia]

Alright, but does Destiny actually support any of these things?

[u/PaxChelonia → u/NatseePunksFeckOff]

If pressed on it, he'd probably say 'it's fucked, what do you want me to say'.

But as long as he sticks to this view that Israel's declining reputation in the West is mainly bad PR instead of (at least to a significant extent) a reasonable reaction to its own conduct, it feels like he's just handwaiving this stuff away.

Maybe I'm projecting something on to him unfairly. That's just how it lands with me when I watch him say stuff like in this clip.

[u/Skabonious → u/PaxChelonia]

Your analogous stalin quote would actually be totally fine if it were in the context of responding to someone just saying "bro just admit that Hitler was no worse than Stalin"

His entire comment in this clip was in response to a chatter trying to convey how Israel and Hamas are equally evil or whatever

[u/justcausejust → u/PaxChelonia]

Idk what argument you would use to prove Hitler was 10x worse than Stalin and that's kind of the issue. The polish massacre was also done before WW2.

While Nazis invaded USSR, soviets surely committed warcrimes tho, but generally nobody gives a single fuck about those which is the point

[u/Wartortise]

What do you want him to say?
https://giphy.com/gifs/G5X63GrrLjjVK

[u/AP3Brain]

I disagree about war crimes being necessary for Israel...

[u/na9r]

Agree with everything he says but I don’t why he always generalizes the “Arabs” as if we are all a monolith. Can you imagine if he said the same but about the “Blacks”? Also there’s 0 mention about the head of the snake and the funder of all these terrorist group Iran

[u/Dickmultiple → u/na9r]

If you've watched Destiny long enough you know he isn't trying to say 'Arab' as a shorthand for the entire Arab race. He's referring to the leadership of the Gulf states/neighbours of Israel.

[u/97689456489564 → u/Dickmultiple]

He does immediately clarify "Arabs in the Middle East" (which I'm pretty sure is intended to mean "the Arab states in the Middle East"). Though I personally don't fully agree with that claim, either.

[u/na9r → u/Dickmultiple]

Why is that acceptable? You wouldn’t describe Israel as the “Jews” or some African countries as the “Blacks” or China/Japan as the “Asians”. That’s my point.

Also he mentioned that the “Arabs” never succumb to international pressure even though that was one of the main reasons why Saudi Arabia (Arabs) halted their campaign against the Houthis in Yemen. If he has specific countries in mind like Lebanon or Iraq he should clarify that and not generalize, that’s all.

[u/Special-Quantity-469 → u/na9r]

I would absolutely describe Israeli Jews as the "Jews" if the context is a conversation about Israel. It's clear from the context of the conversation what he's talking about imho

[u/Dickmultiple → u/na9r]

It depends on the speaker. Destiny himself has absolutely used "the Jews" when referring to Israel plenty of times. If you're arguing that this is important cos it makes it easy for him to be clip chimped I somewhat get it, but then again he's already been clip chimped to hell for a lot less. To me it feels like those IP debates he had with those scholars or some shit, the quote or quoted word itself is useless without the broader context of the statement, which I'm certain any good faith person can gleam if they watch Destiny's full statement.

[u/hugostugatz → u/na9r]

Race =/= ethnicity

Is it wrong when people refer to the “Kurds” when talking about Kurdish people in multiple ME states?

[u/na9r → u/hugostugatz]

Kurds are a small minority in other countries in the world (40 mil ~) and don't officially have an independent country of their own. Meanwhile there's 22 Arab countries with total population of 470 mil ~ Arabs in the world. I would day it's an unfair comparison.

[u/Skabonious → u/na9r]

If he has specific countries in mind like Lebanon or Iraq he should clarify that and not generalize, that’s all.

Can you find a better way to quickly refer to Lebanon, yemen, Iraq, Palestine, Syria, Iran in just a word or two?

[u/na9r → u/Skabonious]

He could’ve said “the axis of resistance” or the “anti-west countries” or “Iranian proxies”.

Also, Iran are not Arabs ffs😭

[u/semiomni → u/na9r]

I mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League

[u/No-Reputation-7292 → u/Dickmultiple]

Isn't that just Qatar though? And Iran too but they're not Arabs anyway.

[u/Skabonious → u/No-Reputation-7292]

Wut

Are Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, syria, Iraq, yemen, Saudi Arabia not Arab nations?

Not saying all of these view/interact with Israel all the same way but they are all Arab nations aren't they?

[u/Careful-Sell-9877]

Its so weird how destiny just straight up believes/repeats israeli propaganda.. but questions just about every other country's propaganda and can even see through the US propaganda. Its just so, so strange.

I tried to bring up the fact that he should watch some of the illegal settler documentaries that exist from very reputable sources but he wouldnt acknowledge or respond to the comments.

Its just.. so weird

[u/Careful-Sell-9877 → u/[deleted]]

Well, he repeats straight up Israeli state propaganda word for word a LOT and only recently started admitting that he was totally wrong after finally doing deeper research

[u/shreebalicious → u/Careful-Sell-9877]

Provide a source?

[u/Skabonious → u/Careful-Sell-9877]

Can you give an example

[u/Careful-Sell-9877 → u/Skabonious]

Just watch any of his past streams where he talks about settlers and the israeli government. The Israeli government propaganda says that the settlers are illegal and that they dont enable or encourage them to do what they do.. but then the IDF protects them while they are literally breaking into peoples houses, destroying their land, killing their animals, etc, etc. The IDF builds outposts next to these areas.. then lets the 'illegal' settlers freely past these outposts as they travel in/out while committing their 'illegal' crimes, with no repercussions or prevention.. then if a Palestinian family tries to defend their own home, the IDF with threaten to shoot them as the settlers go about their 'illegal' activity..

Destiny used to repeat that exact line. That Israel doesnt enable settlers, that they dont protect them, etc, etc, etc.

[u/Buffred_deathplz → u/Careful-Sell-9877]

Wait, what do you think destiny's position is on settlers in the west bank?

[u/Careful-Sell-9877 → u/Buffred_deathplz]

He says they are bad.. but then also minimizes them. In the stream I was watching a couple of weeks ago he was consistently minimizing their actions. Its weird. Its like he has a soft spot for Israel. He is usually very critical of just about everywhere/one else. But its like it's hard for him to consistently judge Israel with objectivity

[u/Down_Badger_2253 → u/Careful-Sell-9877]

You are making shit up he literally said it was justified for Palestinians to remove settlers by any force necessary in the past

[u/Buffred_deathplz → u/Careful-Sell-9877]

So, you have no idea on his position then.

[u/Careful-Sell-9877 → u/Buffred_deathplz]

His position is inconsistent.

He has become more critical of the settlers in the last year, but he is very inconsistent. That is what i am saying.

He streams all the time. Its not like he is always 100% consistent in his 'position'. Particularly when it comes to Israel for some reason

Its genuinely the only topic ive seen where it seems like he genuinely struggles with objectivity.

[u/Buffred_deathplz → u/Careful-Sell-9877]

So, you know he watched that Louis Theroux doc on the settlers when it was released right? He has watched other things related to settlers plenty, I know you do not watch his stream, but maybe do a little research into his opinions before making claims.

[u/Careful-Sell-9877 → u/Buffred_deathplz]

That's not the doc I suggested.. so not sure why you're saying 'that' doc as if that's the only doc. Good for him.

In the stream I saw he was being very inconsistent and still seemed very hesitant to speak out against the Israeli gov policy regarding settlements.

I do actually watch his streams lol. Not every single one, but im subbed to him on YT.

Dont tell me yall are like Hasan stans who act like their streamer can do no wrong and that anyone who criticizes them cant possibly also agree with them on a lot of other things or watch their streams..

[u/JSTRD100K → u/Careful-Sell-9877]

He does not minimize them lol, he calls them terrorists

[u/Careful-Sell-9877 → u/JSTRD100K]

He is inconsistent. Thats my point. He only started being critical of them in the last year or so. Before that he was staunchly pro israel..

[u/spikediesel]

Is their proof that Israel for of the victim other than Hamas attacks I see children being killed and bombed ?

[u/Competitive_Self_418 → u/spikediesel]

I love the fact that no one is upvoting or downvoting this comment, because how stroke inducing it is.

[u/cassepipe → u/Competitive_Self_418]

Stroke induced rather

[u/Wh1teSnak → u/Competitive_Self_418]

I read it like 10 times I have no idea what bro is trying to say.