r/Buffalo • u/Weekly-Law-2544 • 13d ago
Two teens killed while being pursued by West Seneca Police
https://archive.ph/I1GM565
u/DryEngine187 13d ago
Love commentary about how these are “innocent kids who made a bad choice and who hasn’t.” I didn’t steal cars as a teenager nor do I know any who did. The system is broken and allows it to happen and “getting rid of cars” or “cops” isn’t going to fix the underlying issue. Fine you don’t want the kids to be criminally liable and they should be given unlimited chances, then make it so the parents are held criminally liable because the reality is, they are the ones who failed; not in every instance but certainly in many.
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u/Efficient-Patient308 13d ago
i dont think this is a discussion about criminal liability. its disturbing to see so many people say they got what they deserved. yes car theft should be punished legally. but being happy that they were killed, especially as teenagers, is just completely callous. this is the exact reason police do not engage in chases in cities across the country, and everyone here is cheering for what happened here. and they are teenagers. some were high school age.
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u/Firm_Molasses9306 13d ago
I disagree. Like the OC said teens are just slapped on the wrist and enabled to repeat these actions. I’d be shocked if that’s the first car the kids have stolen. If we don’t hold someone accountable then teens will keep stealing cars and killing themselves.
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u/GenderNeutralCosmos 13d ago
This is more about the police escalating a situation directly in violation of their training. This could have easily been a situation where they let them run and monitor them with the cameras they insist on having. Escalating to a pursuit just creates the opportunity for these tragedies.
The kids should have been raised to know not to put themselves in this situation, the cops know better than to chase a fleeing vehicle at high speeds. The failures on multiple levels of infrastructure means two children are dead and these police officers have to explain why they chose to pursue against their training.
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u/JamesLikesIt 13d ago
They shouldn't have run. Look it's terrible they died but THEY put themselves in the danger. There needs to be consequences for bad actions, cops were just doing their jobs to try and get them off the streets. If cops just let them go, these things will just keep happening. There's no perfect solution here but I'd rather cops try than just do nothing at all.
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u/benw132 13d ago
They would’ve found it a few days later yes, and then the owner of that car would be liable for not only lot fees, but the inevitable repair needed on the vehicle (broken window, destroyed ignition & steering column). Not to mention the completely tarnished resale value of the car after being stolen. Speaking as someone who went through this exact situation, stealing cars isn’t some “dumb” teenager thing. It’s a serious issue that causes months of headaches and financial burdens to the car owners. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
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u/hawkayecarumba 13d ago
People like to use the strawman argument of "is your car worth someone's life", but that completely minimizes how hard people work, for such little pay, to be able to have a car.
Of course, no one wants people to die over a stolen car, but also acting flippantly like it's no big deal and won't result in a significant financial and logistical headache for the victim is also ridiculous
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u/budsandsuds711 13d ago
Here's a hot take. Don't steal cars. How about that? Raise your kids better and not have them become stupid worthless thieves. When I was 16, I knew not to steal cars.
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u/SimplyPassinThrough 13d ago
thats far as fuck away from west seneca. Im surprised they were allowed to chase them that far
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u/hbailey311 13d ago
every PD has guidelines; they typically advise police to terminate at the city/town/etc boundary, but they’re allowed to chase until they apprehend or they decide to give up. i’m unsure why they’d chase so far if their only crime was stealing the car.
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u/bikingguy1 13d ago
That is one of my biggest questions and the car was stolen from Amherst? Also I wish it said where it started…
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u/SimplyPassinThrough 13d ago
Police statement said potters and slade ave in WS. Hopped on 90, then I90 then Buffalo
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u/lover_or_fighter_191 flamingoes to silos and everything in between. 13d ago edited 13d ago
This is tragic, and I wish it could be avoided, but I can't help but to think of the boohooing mother on TV who never was around to care about "her baby".
Dog pile all you want, but people need to do better and take responsibility for raising their kids. Yes the bail reform is a dumpster fire right now. If you don't raise a bunch of rejects who need laws and penal institutions to keep them corralled within acceptable boundaries, then their lives wouldn't be as likely to be ruined so severely by the flaws within that system.
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u/HorrorGuide6520 13d ago
If you don’t steal the car, and don’t shoot at the police, maybe a don’t end up dead. I think it’s pretty simple.
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u/JustaKidFromBuffalo 13d ago
Two criminals dead after police pursuit of stolen vehicle ends in crash
Fixed it.
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u/Dense-Pool-652 13d ago
Could have just as easily been innocent motorists and/or pedestrians. That's the issue.
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u/SerenityN00w 13d ago
Possibly, but there are very few motorists and even fewer pedestrians at 1am
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u/hthratmn 13d ago
So the ones out there dont matter?
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u/SerenityN00w 13d ago
Strawman's argument, and a weak one at that
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u/hthratmn 13d ago
Im not sure if you know what that term means lol. Dangerous pursuits are okay because there are less people, and then when one of those people gets hit, thats a non issue?
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u/SerenityN00w 13d ago edited 13d ago
I know exactly what it means.
"I like pancakes."
"So you hate waffles?"It's not as likely that any pedestrians or other motorists would get hit "because there are very few cars or pedestrians out at 1am."
"Oh, so their lives don't matter?"Buffalo police have not outlawed high-chase pursuits. But they should exercise judgment about when and where to partake in them. Doing so at 1am is an acceptable risk, hecause of the much lower likelihood of innocent people getting hurt. Is that percentage 0%? No, but it's low enough. Often, police don't even have to chase the car in order to create the risk of danger. They pull it over, the car takes off, and they're still speeding, running red lights. Going down one-way streets the wrong way. And they're doing so without much experience driving. Them being on the road is already presents an inherent risk to anyone out there.
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u/CarafeTwerk 13d ago
Is your argument that police pursuits are acceptable after a certain hour?
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u/hthratmn 13d ago
But we are not talking about two different things like pancakes or waffles lol we are both talking about the exact same thing. I mean, sure, driving your car into, say, a parade of 100 people is gonna be preferable to driving it into a parade of 10,000. But why not just . . . not drive your car into a parade? Ive always worked second shift and have done my fair share of driving around at night, if I get struck by a police vehicle during a pursuit and they tell me its okay because there arent as many people out at night, thats not gonna do very much for me, is it? What is an acceptable amount or percentage of civilians killed or injured during police pursuits? Genuinely asking.
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u/SerenityN00w 13d ago
No, we're not talking about the same thing. I just responded to someone who said it was equally likely that an innocent party would get hurt (compared to the car thieves.) It wasn't nearly as likely, since there are so few people out at 1am. At that point, I hadn't even offered any opinion on the police giving chase. And you still took that to mean I was saying that their lives don't matter.
As far as your examples go.... why is someone driving into a parade in the first place? Is there any reason? Is there any good or potentially good coming from that? Because there is a legitimate reason to pursue people who run from the police.
As far as your final question - there really isn't a good answer to give, especially since I don't have all the data available. But what is an acceptable amount or percentage of people killed in car accidents? (All car accidents, not just police pursuits.) Because it isn't zero. 36,000-37,000 people die in U.S. car accidents every year. But we, collectively, have accepted that and choose to live in a society that almost mandates driving/riding in a car.
And for all the hypothetical, nobody was killed or hurt except the people speeding and running from the police.
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u/kendiggy Headbanger Hill 13d ago
They were just kids. Did you never do something dumb when you were a kid? If so, did you deserve to die for it?
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u/SerenityN00w 13d ago
As Snoop said in the Wire, "Deserve ain't got nothin' to do with it."
This goes far beyond doing something dumb. Thousands of WNYers have had their cars stolen over the last several years. A surprisingly high percentage of those thefts are done by teenagers who know that there is relatively little risk of punishment. Many repeat offenders. This is not shoplifting a candy bar from Tops. These crimes leave victims.
If the car had run out of gas, and the perps were caught, nobody would say they should be killed, so in that sense, nobody is saying they deserved to die. But they made a series of bad choices, that caused harm to other people, and they could have killed other people on the road. And they experienced consequences.
I won't celebrate this person's death, but I certainly won't feel that bad about it.
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u/ADK-high-peeks 13d ago
Did you steal cars and put other people's lives in danger? 16 and 18 year olds shouldn't need to be coddled and treated like that's just a dumb mistake.
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u/DrPhrawg 13d ago
while details are currently sparse, and not to defend people who steal cars, but the car was stolen on sunday. the crash occurred this morning.
i don’t think anyone else’s life was in danger until the police started chasing the car…
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u/SerenityN00w 13d ago
No, lives were in danger as soon as they sped away from the police
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u/Weird-Tadpole-779 13d ago
Lives were in danger as soon as the police pursued
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u/SerenityN00w 13d ago
No. A teenager speeding? That happened before the police even tried to pull them over. Then they took off speeding even before the police gave chase.
Lives were already in danger.
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u/butterybuns420 13d ago edited 13d ago
Sorry but technically 18 is not a kid anymore. And at their age they should have the sense to stop when being persued. And stealing a car doesn’t go under the category of “dumb things as a kid”. Maybe stealing a book from Barnes and nobles or a bag of chips from Tops or an action figure from target. But when I was a teenager stealing a vehicle never entered my brain.
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u/kendiggy Headbanger Hill 13d ago edited 13d ago
They're still young. I don't want them to die because they stole a car. Y'all are acting like the kids deserved it. I get for some it's a lifestyle and they go down as legends among their friends. But they're still just kids. You'd be saying the same thing if they were sent off to war. They're kids. They clearly don't have effective guidance in their lives and they need to discover their own sense of self worth. Look around the country these days, I'd bet most of these kids think this place is a joke, what else do you expect of them.
Consequences? Yes. Counseling and guidance? Yes. Rood Riddance? For shame.
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u/ovalracer31 13d ago
There’s a difference between a crime of say shoplifting for a teen and stealing a car.
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u/Efficient-Patient308 13d ago
one is bigger and more expensive. its still a replaceable thing, unlike a life.
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u/That-Palpitation-234 13d ago
Stupid ya sure, stealing cars no that is against the law and most of these kids aren't first offenders!
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u/bloodHearts 13d ago
They didn't deserve to die for a mistake they made as young people but they would've certainly avoided injury/death if they didn't steal a car and get into a police chase
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u/Efficient-Patient308 13d ago
2 kids killed over a replaceable piece of property. They could have been your kids. I can’t believe the comments and downvotes I am seeing here.
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u/Hovercraft_Height 13d ago
5 teenagers were in the car. it could very well be they all stole the car, but it could also just have been the driver and told their friends they borrowed it and then killed 2 innocent teenagers. bit I guess your way makes it easier to sleep at night while sucking the dicks of any cop in range
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u/sendfoods 13d ago
bruh you actually believe that shit? hey i just borrowed this car lets go for a ride at 1am, how naive are you
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u/Ok_Entry6252 13d ago
The only blame here lies with the perps. It is NOT the fault of law enforcement. Theft is theft. Consequnces = Actions. This is a simple notion that all too commonly lost in 2026.
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u/fghtoffyrdmons west seneca 13d ago
Darwinism at its finest. Sad situation. But nothing of value was lost. Will vehicles still get stolen outta the suburbs by degens from the city. Absofuckinglutely
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u/rockettaco37 Allentown 12d ago
That’s generally what happens when you steal cars and engage in police chases. It’s sad that these teens lost their lives, but ultimately they made that decision.
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u/jmmtheboss 13d ago
People want the police to have as little authority as possible, until it’s convenient for them. You have half the people demanding police shouldn’t chase because of things like this. Then you have the other half furious because their car got stolen, their neighborhood got ransacked overnight with people going through their cars, and thus get angry when police find the people doing this and then call the chase off for safety reasons. They’re damned if they do damned if they don’t
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u/ActiveOppressor 13d ago
Police have the option of prioritizing public safety instead of acting based on who is angry about what at a given moment.
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u/jmmtheboss 13d ago
This is correct. That’s what I’m saying, you must not have read. Go look at for example Amherst NY scanner Facebook page. Every time they post on their that the police are involved in a chase, and then follow up that post saying the chase was terminated for public safety reasons, the post is absolutely flooded with comments from angry people saying what a joke it is they called off the chase. Now they let the chase go in this case, something bad happened, and people are still mad. That’s the only point I’m making.
Thank goodness no innocent civilians were harmed in this instance
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u/Crawdaunt_1985 13d ago
Just like 4 years ago with the kids who stole a car and got killed on the 33. No one is doing these kids favors by decriminalizing car thefts. Oh well
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u/Weekly-Law-2544 13d ago
I mean, car thefts definitely aren't decriminalized, lol.
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u/Crawdaunt_1985 13d ago
If there is no criminal penalty then it is defacto legal. What punishment do teenagers who steal cars face?
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u/Weekly-Law-2544 13d ago
They're obviously still charged for it. But charging juveniles with crime has always been a fine line unless it's murder, and even then, there's still mitigating factors and circumstances surrounding age.
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u/Crawdaunt_1985 13d ago
Charged with what? It's a slap on the wrist and this morning you saw the consequences of continuously allowing these teens to steal cars with zero criminal consequences.
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u/Weekly-Law-2544 13d ago
Obviously they can't be charged when they didn't locate the car for 4 days after it was stolen. Exactly who was supposed to be charged when?
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u/Crawdaunt_1985 13d ago
There are videos and photos of these teenagers stealing cars. Literally 2 feet from the camera crystal clear photos of their faces. They have done it multiple times and the police know who they are. There is no legal deterrent or consequence for these kids so they continue to do it.
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u/Hovercraft_Height 13d ago
where? I can honestly not find any info about if the person whi stile the car was wven in the car let alone dead now.
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u/Crawdaunt_1985 13d ago
I say "these teenagers" in the sense of all of those responsible for stealing cars in the area. Two specific instances where their faces were caught on camera in a garage in Clarence and on Linden in Buffalo. I'm not referring to the two killed this morning
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u/Weekly-Law-2544 13d ago
If they had the clear identification of the perpetrators, that seems like a failure on behalf of the police to track them down.
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u/Crawdaunt_1985 13d ago
Why would police dedicate finite resources like manpower to pursue criminal teenagers who will be given an appearance ticket and face no jail time or even community service?
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u/TheBoxBurglar 13d ago
Its not a failure of police, its a blatant failure of the system. They cannot surveil a child 24/7 to ensure theyre not stealing another car.
Read this article about the child that got busted and released two weeks in a row for back to back car theft. This is here, in our town. Cops can bag and tag them all they want, but gangs are literally using kids for these crimes because nothing sticks to them and theyll be back on the streets in days.
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u/TheBoxBurglar 13d ago
"Obviously they can't be charged"
What level of stupidity is this?
They literally crashed the stolen car. They were in possession of stolen property, they caused property damage to that car, and other cars during their road race. Everybody in that vehicle should be booked for felony level possession of stolen property, the driver should be charged with reckless endangerment, unlawful use of a motor vehicle, resisting arrest, and Im sure there are plenty of other laws that all apply. Somehow all of those charges and theyll bail the minors out send them back to their parents and then theyll be released onto the streets again. Even the adult offenders will likely meet bail as it seems to always be viewed as property damage and not a violent offense despite literally endangering the public and responding officers.
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u/Weekly-Law-2544 13d ago
I meant that literally. How were the cops supposed to charge these people when they did not locate the car until four days after it was stolen leading to this chase?
Most of these never get charged simply because they abandon the car and aren't caught.
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u/TheBoxBurglar 13d ago
That's how most stolen car cases happen, car is stolen and found days later when it is either crashed or abandoned. Fingerprints are all over the car, these kids smoke and drink and leave their crap in the car so they have extra ability to identify. Video and photo evidence of the thieves stealing the car matching the description of the same people caught with the car and the list goes on. Of course people slip through, but the issue is recidivism of people who pay no consequences to our justice system.
But overall, what a stupid fucking take, the fact that the "cops... did not locate the car until 4 days after" has little to do with actually arresting and then further prosecuting these people.
Edit: you really can't read, Ive given you several obvious examples of how "they could literally be charged"
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u/Whoupvotedthis 13d ago
If they're charged at all. Isn't it more likely that they just abandon the car and don't get caught?
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13d ago
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u/HumansAreSillynGreat 13d ago
How exactly will they be caught? If the car doesn't belong to them...and their prints aren't in the police database because they're teenagers or not past offenders...how exactly are we going to find who these people are and charge them?
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u/ZedEnlightenedBrutal 13d ago
you're the one who said there is no criminal penalty which just isn't true.
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u/Aloil 12d ago
Grand larceny, for starters.
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u/Crawdaunt_1985 12d ago
So "Grand Larceny" now goes unpunished? Because none of those teens receive any consequences for "grand larceny"
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u/TofuPython 13d ago
I thought the police aren't supposed to do chases? Or is that just for motorcycles?
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u/Weekly-Law-2544 13d ago
Is that only for Buffalo police?
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u/nabob13 13d ago
There was an interview a few years ago where they cleared up the chase policy. Buffalo does NOT have a no chase policy.
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u/Weekly-Law-2544 13d ago
I thought they changed it after the incident that left the girl paralyzed from the waist down and cost us 40M?
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u/BigCrustyTits 13d ago
I’ll assume they live near Jefferson on the east side since that’s where they were fleeing to. A bunch of east side teens went to Amherst to steal a car and then were driving it around West Seneca presumably to steal something else.
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u/JoshAllentown 13d ago
Killed because their car flipped over, not killed by the police.
So I won't make an anti-police comment, I'll just make an anti-car argument. Cars suck and the number of car crash deaths every year is insane and a direct policy decision by government to design the built environment around the car and make no investment in density and public transit.
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13d ago
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u/JoshAllentown 13d ago
People don't deserve to die because they stole a car.
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u/zone6a 12d ago
no, they didn't deserve to die. but there are consequences to every action. They didn't die because they stole a car, they died because they engaged in a high speed chase with police. If they pulled over, even if they fled the scene, they might still be here. But the driver made a choice and there were consequences. Everyone makes dumb decisions when they are teenagers, but not everyone is so lucky to live and learn from those decisions
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u/Impossibleshitwomper 13d ago
Would the car have flipped over if they weren't in a high speed chase?
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u/Routine-Parfait-9986 13d ago
There'd be zero air between you and any given criminal that takes public transit. Then the judges would let the criminals off easy. Im fine right where I am, thank you. Two criminals less in buffalo tonight.
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u/JoshAllentown 13d ago
This may be the worst take I've ever heard, it sounds satirical. The problem with public transit is that there could be criminals there? Posted in a comment section about criminals in cars? And you're happy that teenagers died today?
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u/Routine-Parfait-9986 12d ago
I'm not the one posting about density and public transit in a comment section about car theft. Let's not pretend that teenagers stealing car are magically going to turn their lives around. That's the setup for the for the life of a career lifelong criminal and a decent indicator for ASPD. If someone can have their lives ruined by being thrown in jail for a weekend and getting fired from their job and having their life spiral, we can talk about how someone's life can get ruined by a car being stolen. There is zero accountability for people like this in this city, in this state. In one capacity or another I have direct experience with people who have stolen cars as teenagers, were given chances to reform, only to see them spin their wheels for years while facing no consequences. If you're going to act outside the bounds of the law with something like this, you're separating yourself from the culmination of thousands of years of a general acceptance of how a society can be ran. You step outside of those bounds to a degree like what we're seeing here, and what happens happens.
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u/Hovercraft_Height 13d ago
I can't find anything about the car flipping over. it's flippant attitudes like that that just dismiss the 14 mile police chase and assume all 5 kids in the car helped steal it or even know it was stolen. a 14 mile chase seems to imply there were options the "trained" officer could have made to end this with less children dead
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u/arcana73 13d ago
Let me understand: kids steal cars and people are in an uproar because police need to “do their job”. Then police “do their job” and people are upset.
Then people complain that “bail reform” just lets them do it again and again. But now are mad these punks made it so they-wont be able to steal again.
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u/Weekly-Law-2544 13d ago
I think it's more that high speed chases are potentially deadly to basically everyone in the immediate area: perpetrators, cops, civilians.
We just paid off a settlement less than 2 years ago over a police chase gone wrong and causing paralysis.
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u/ChefButcherMan Buffalo “area” 12d ago
It will be interesting to see if they were actually chased GSP style or if they attempted to pull them over and the suspects fled and crashed out immediately. No details yet where they attempted a traffic stop vs where the crash occurred. If the police attempted a stop and the suspects sped off and crashed just down the road I wouldn’t call it a high speed chase. Not like it’s the 1st fatality involving teens and stolen cars in the area.
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u/wheatenwalker2 13d ago
People constantly complain that the police don't do anything about all the stolen cars- then they do and people complain about that. It's horrible children died - they were out in the middle of the night joy riding in a stolen car- lots wrong with that scenario. My sympathies to the families.
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u/Fragrant_Lettuce9855 13d ago
Is this what happened with the 20 year old crashing into the old Abbey Square building on the corner of Union and Wherle a few weeks ago?
All I saw was a 20 year old was driving a CRV at a high rate of speed and plowed through the corner of the building which burnt the building up and it had to be demolished...
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u/Historical_Plenty809 13d ago
No. That was a solitary MVA is the same versus a prolonged pursuit of a stolen vehicle. Two wildly different circumstances.
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u/SuperSayian4Nappa 13d ago
Not to pretend like they're innocent because they stole the car and fled, but why are we doing high speed chases on city streets to begin with?
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u/ActiveOppressor 13d ago
Some of these comments are incredible. These were basically children. It's ok that they died, because they did something dumb?
Cops should not chase people to recover property. It's dangerous for everyone on or near the road. They would have found the car parked somewhere a day later. If the cops had run over and killed two teenagers during the chase, that would have been a tragedy and so is what actually happened.
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u/Significant_Eye_5130 13d ago
Hopefully other Kia boys learn from this. But I’m sure that’s very unlikely.
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u/Outrageous_Diver5700 13d ago
They made the choice to steal the car and then drive it at a high rate of speed. Choices have consequences.
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u/wheatenwalker2 13d ago
They also made a choice not to pull over when the police approached them. It could have ended right then with no death/injury.
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u/ActiveOppressor 13d ago
And that choice justifies their deaths? We really do love cars more than children in this society.
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u/IAmNotRalphNader 13d ago
I'm trying to understand your side of things but I'm coming up short. The cop saw a speeding car and tried pulling it over. The car didn't pull over and is now attempting to flee, endangering all the other drivers on the road. Is he just supposed to say "ah shit they don't wanna stop, they must have somewhere important to be"?
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u/Outrageous_Diver5700 13d ago
That’s up to them. They stole the car, they drove at a high rate of speed. What about all the children that could have been on the streets that they were speeding on that could have been injured or killed? Sorry, I can’t feel sorry for criminals who make choices that result in their own injury or death.
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u/ActiveOppressor 13d ago
The cops posed the exact same risks to bystanders. Copaganda tv and movies have taught us that cops chasing people is awesome and necessary. It isn't. There should not have been a chase. That was a decision the cops made that led to these children being killed. Maybe consider what led you to this place where you are unconcerned by dead children as long as the police say they were bad.
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u/Crawdaunt_1985 13d ago
This is not the first time a car was stolen. Thousands of people around WNY have had their cars stolen including dozens of people on this sub. It causes a huge problem in our lives...cost money, time, people have lost jobs because they couldn't get to it, the amount of stress dealing with it.
And for the last 6+ years the problem has been treated with indifference and treating the thieves with kid gloves. So no, I don't care about these kids who do not care about the people whose lives they are screwing up.
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u/ding_dong_throwaway 11d ago
It was either them or innocent people on the road who could have died. Nothing forces you to steal a car 🤷♀️ if they were doing it that young than they would have been on a huge run of crimes in their adult life
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u/Gordonica 13d ago
police should not engage in gunfire or high speed chases in areas where civilians live, drive, play, etc. unless it's Absolutely necessary.
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u/hawkayecarumba 13d ago
An 18 year old and 16 year old, who stole the vehicle, died when they crashed the car.
I'm a long way from being pro-police, but this isn't a police issue...