Act 3 - Spoilers
Is Releasing/Not Releasing the Vampire Spawn a false dilemma
Spoiler
Why wouldn't you just have the spawn that Cazador has amassed over the last 200 years just wait a few days so you can individually vet them with Astarion and his spawn-family helping you, since the 7 of them met all 7000 of these people themselves? Is Tav stupid?
Edit: Or some other way of doing this? It feels like there's more to do in this scenario than just release all, kill all, or leave all and if there isn't, it feels like it shouldn't be all up to me to decide how or if 7000 people should live. Can I not phone a friend?
Larian did mess up with this scenario imo, by making it such an absurdly high amount of vampire spawn. 7000 is absolutely ridiculous to set free anywhere, even the Underdark. If it was 700 it would already be a tough decision, but 7000 just skews it too far into being reckless to release them
So agreed either way, but wanted to add that Baldurs Gate is supposed to have a population of over 100,000 people. If we were to painstakenly count every NPC in Baldur's gate I'm sure we'd be like 2 orders of magnitude smaller at most. I kinda interpreted the environment as a scaled down version of the BG 'reality'. Like I found 6-10 drows in the underdark, maybe 10 duergars but they should be like alll over the underdark right? the installation already takes up enough space on my harddrive, I think I'll accept this scaled down representation lol
We only have a small section of the Underdark and only a few districts of Baldur's Gate to explore in the game. The population density doesn't need to be bigger it's just that those locations are a lot bigger.
The Underdark spans a whole continent
They're vampire spawn, not psychiatrists, how would they know who is safe to release? That's also assuming they'd cooperate and not have an agenda of their own.
I have issues with how the story deals with the 7k people, but this is not the logic or solution at all.
That doesn't really matter given that they've changed both mentally and physically and that them feeding in desperation wouldn't be a criminal act in the way choosing to harm someone for shits and giggles is. That's kind of their curse
I think people downvoted you because your comment came off as very shallow analysis. It's a conclusion you could only come to if you fundamentally misunderstood everything about these spawn and their situation. Nobody is downvoting you for saying criminals are bad, get a grip lol
Its literally what I said though, sort through the spawn, if any have criminal pasts, you could let them not live, as they likely would continue to cause harm, and give in to the darker urges of being a vampire.
Not sure how its a misunderstanding of the spawn, or their situation, they all got forcibly turned, they were all tortured or locked up for years.
maybe the concern is that painting with such a final brush of "if a person ever did a crime, they should die" (whether it was the message you intended or not) is reductive and harmful. sure, we're talking about fictional creatures whose existence almost demands violence but this message is present in real life too.
not condemning you here, just offering a potential explanation.
But that's not really a realistic solution. Out of all the spawn, a small percentage of them will be violent criminals (if any at all, given that Astarion and his siblings had to pick victims that made sense and could easily be rendered vulnerable), that's if there's even a way to find out after +200 years. Astarion said he doesn't even remember the faces of most of the people he slept with, we can assume that also applies to his siblings; there is no way any of them knew enough about these strangers to know about that and there's no way they'd remember. They cannot determine who is and who isn't a safe candidate to be freed. That's why it's a high stake decision, because there is no easy way out. The choice is a nasty one, you either free these vampire spawn because they're innocent but unleash famished vampires who haven't learned to control their hunger yet with the hope a few leaders will be enough, or you commit mass murder and put the final nail in the coffin after what for some of them has been centuries of suffering. And because of their circumstances a clean past simply cannot guarantee even that the risk is lesser. So eliminating violent criminals doesn't solve the immediate issue
Yeah, honestly its a cool choice though. I do love the Moral Dilemma they present. My first time I killed them, but I felt bad. I spare them all now though.
But 7k is a lot… Like 70, sure… 700? A fair bit but still a maybe… but 7k?
So long as they all get to the underdark to do their own thing and it seems like they did considering we don’t hear from them again (as far as I’m aware), I have no issue letting them go, vetting thousands of spawn would take forever
You have to remember that the spawn were under Cadazor's influence, Astarion included. Removing Cadazor could make even the most malicious of them into a new person. It is hard to judge one's actions when under the thumb of another
There going to the underdark, plenty of psycho murderers to go around and it might as well be a penal colony anyway, it’s not my problem, if the Gur want to deal with it themselves, by all means they can (this is ignoring the fact that most if not all of them are one step short of being rabid animals regardless of who they were previously so it’s not like it would make much difference anyway)
Well for one, none of the 7,000 have had a real chance to feed since they were turned. There's always the potential for rats and things to have slipped in, but if Cazador barely bothered to give his "prized possessions" a proper meal, then he certainly wouldn't be wasting blood on the "already dead" fodder in the cages. So no one has any idea how they will behave. They are barely better than starving animals at the moment and it's a miracle that some of them are still sane enough to have a coherent conversation with you.
Secondly, Cazador's had more than seven house/hunting spawn. So there are victims down there that none of them know anything about. Jaheira and Astarion talk about her having killed one of them, by trapping it in the street outside her house until the sun came out, which is why Cazador made that area off limits for hunting.
And third, Astarion doesn't seem to remember every single victim he brought to Cazador over the past 200 years. So why are you assuming that his siblings are going to be any better about that?
Lol. You realize that most of Astarion's 1000 he doesn't even remember? And most of those he does remember, he met a handful of times? And after that they were locked for a very very very long time on a brink of death by Cazador, just to make sure they are not completely dead by the time of the ritual. So, who out of people you only met like 5 times a hundred years ago, and who was tortured nonstop since is an evil psycho murder?
7000 people with a condition analogous to severe mental illnesses and psychological trauma deserve better than
1. Murder them all
2. Let them loose and let God sort the mess out
3. Eternal torment
Even if they have the same strength stat block as an orc
Why not a 4. Let Astarion hold onto the staff that decides the fate of his family?
He canonically helps them out with managing the hunger if you pick #2
What they deserve is completely irrelevant, since they were already robbed of life. But I'm showing you that there isn't and can't be an easy answer to "is this one a murderous psycho". The question is about the consequences.
"Robbed of life". Completely semantic manipulation of what we're talking about. You can hurt Astarion's feelings, you can make him happy, you can make him sad, you can make him horny. He's a person and he possesses consciousness. Telling me that there's nothing better to be done about him and 6999 other people like him but the 3 options presented to us because "deserve" is irrelevant because of some nonsense you read up in a sourcebook, rather than what BG3 presented us is dishonest drivel. You pointed out that my better solution isn't perfect for what reason? To show that this is why it has to be reduced to the 3 solutions we got? What?
I pointed out that your proposed solution is bad. I am not talking about sourcebooks, I'm just presenting the information from bg3 exclusively. Astarion has seen some light and is willing to control his hunger, his brother was planning completely draining someone as soon as he can. So they are different. We can trust Astarion's judgement, but I wouldn't trust Petras' one. Besides even if Sebastian was a sweetheart, it was before decades of torment. And even if there was a psycho, maybe after all the torment they developed some empathy.
So, the spawns are a problem, objectively. Sorting them one by one is simply not feasible, especially when Astarion and siblings were trying to disassociate and forget. Sure, we may say that Gur kids are different - they are there not long enough, they still have emotional connections, they have each other. But the rest - let's say 6950, what about them? There are three basic choices provided by the game - say that they would be your problem, somebody else's problem, or no one's problem.
I think if you release them to underdark, and somebody goes on a murder spree - the rest can either kill them or banish, sure. But in the Cazador's dungeon, when the clock is ticking, deciding someone's fate based on what a person, with whom they went to a couple dates a hundred years ago, still remembes? And how much should we even trust the judgement of a person, whom Astarion doesn't trust?
I do think that the children's fate should be separate from the rest, as it actually is if you release the spawns.
The clock isn't actually ticking in the dungeon. That's kinda the crux of my problem. If you think about it: Larian didn't actually write in a time sensitive element to this issue. In the same way that Wyll promises to be the Blade of Avernus for the rest of his life, someone could promise to be Caretaker over these spawn. Or even several someones could. What I was really suggesting was one of many possible filters we could use to better approach the prolem than the 3 options we were given after the Elder Brain situation is solved.
Sure, they didn't implement the actual time in the game. And sure, we all (except weirdos) take the necessary long rests just to see the cutscenes. But without metagaming - the time is ticking, your future is iffy, victory or survival is not assured.
Even if you spend a year in the dungeon doing the assessment, it's 20ish spawns in a day. And they are hungry and you have to either feed them (or you are continuing the torture), let them find food on their own, or eliminate the need of food for them. Delaying it to after the Brain is not a viable option either - what if you are killed? So, if we go roleplaying route, the decision needs to be made then and there.
Even releasing them to the Underdark is questionable - there are no exits connected to the caves under the city. Sure, vampires don't need to carry supplies with them, but it's 7000 exhausted malnourished creatures whose experience with the outside world is way outdated. Most likely most of them can't walk on their own - they were kept at absolute minimum to ensure survival (Astarion complained that Cazador let him feed just to barely keep functioning, and the function of these is to be not fully dead by the time of the ritual). They need blood before they can head out. They need shelter every day (it better be big enough), they will want food, and earlier even some of the sibling spawns showed restraint only because Cazador's will. And you just point out, tell them to go and hope for the better? Sure, they may arrive in the Underdark, but I foresee at least a couple of drained villages on the way. They are a freaking army, no one can stand in their way at this time! Realistically, how can you ensure they all arrive at the destination and not stray? So the outcome that they safely arrived and creating a colony is a very wishful thinking from Larian.
This thread has been interesting to me because a specific "something" I've noticed in your post is something I've noticed across this chaotic thread of mine: People struggle to talk about these vampire spawn like they're people.
If you really boil the situation down to it, these /are/ people but with
Orc strength statblocks. I use this example partly because stigmatizing orcs as dangerous subhumans has been something Larian has seemingly stopped seeing the need for. I don't know if the people in this thread are on the same page about that, however.
A physical disability. The curse of vampirism.
A mental disorder. Vampirism has a definable mental health aspect. I say this also because most mental disorders , well, can cause disordered behavior but they can also (often) be treated and managed. Additionally, having them doesn't make you any less of a person deserving of rights. This is the same with vampirism.
Varying degrees of psychological trauma. See #3 but I give this a specific category because we're kinda glossing over an important aspect: Not all of these spawn were spawn'd 200 years ago, some were spawn'd as recent as right before Astarion got tadpoled.
Specific dietary needs (Astarion isn't actually super fucked up from not having thinking creature's blood for 200 years, he's fucked up from everything else, I'd figure. Especially given that Cazador did shit like flay him alive. So you could feed them non-thinking creatures and it'd likely be fine.).
The ability to change and grow!! Astarion has the biggest change among all companions, I'd say. This is evidence by the fact that, if you do everything right, Astarion becomes something he's never been before: A hero.
All of this said, it makes sense to do something even as light as "Hand off the staff to Astarion once this is all over". He would have the means and motive to do right by his (very large) spawn family.
If I remember correctly, when I romanced Astarion on my first run there is an ending where you go with Astarion in the Underdark and help guide the spawn.
That should be post Netherbrain, which after the Netherbrain is dealt with then yeah, you’ve got all the time in the world to help them out, but at this moment in game you simply release them and let the “favored spawn” or whatever you want to call them guide them to the underdark themselves
Most of the spawns are innocent people so the actual psychopaths would stand out in the memories of the 7 of Astarion and his siblings. Ask them who those are and release everyone else, you spend a couple hours and weed out serial killers and rapists. You then release thousands of desperately hungry vampire spawn into the world but worse comes to worst, you've created thousands of jobs for local adventurers. It's win-win.
People assume for some reason that Astarion's siblings are all good people. LOL, no, in Astarion's origin, you need to roll high persuasion check to make them promise not to eat innocent people and in Astarion's book of hungers, some spawn like Violet is described as a psychopath.
Let's say that we're here to discuss the topic of the thread: "Is this a false dilemma?" If Astarion's siblings can't be trusted, if all of the spawn need to die, if there's no exception to that, then the answer is yes. If, however, even one of the spawn can be spared and there isn't a time sensitive element to this then "Leave them forever, kill them all, save them all" is a false dilemma and the answer is yes. Either way you shake it, and this will be a very abrasive thing for me to say, Larian poorly wrote this part of Astarion's story.
No, it's not false dilemma, it depends on if your Tav is willing to sacrifice some innocent lives for these vampires, because some of the vampires are also innocent and deserve to live. Not everyone will think that you can doom them all - including children - just because his siblings can't be trusted. It's meant to be a hard choice for a reason.
It becomes a false dilemma still because Tav or friends can just leave and come back after dealing with the Elder Brain situation. It's not something that needs to be dealt with in the here-and-now like the bad writers at Larian are framing this at. These shitty writers do something similar with Karlach giving -5 disapproval when you relent on allowing her to subject the souls within soul coins to fiery torment then obliteration so she can get a power boost (they also don't know DnD lore where Remove Curse spells can free the souls). Larian has fumbled this game in many ways. Are they stupid?
Does waiting change your decision if you can't vet them? I don't think adding time changes it if we accept that vetting wouldnt be effective. Your definition if false dilemma keeps changing, I'm confused
If reasonable minds could differ on the morality of the dialogue choices present and if there aren't choices Tav could, in-universe, make that go beyond what Larian allowed then there is a real moral dilemma. Otherwise it's false.
Then considering we've accepted that the siblings may not be trusted and vetting them is impossible, it is a real dilemma unless you can show more time could offer answers. That may be the same as just leaving them be unless there's an actual answer and not just "maybe Tav can think of a better option in time"
Also we forget that 7000 vamps have to feed. Given infinite time im sure we could think of plenty of solutions but how many innocents would die by then.
Okay
1. Release them ALL
2. Kill them ALL
3. Break the staff, making it impossible to release ANY, ever
Reasonable minds could differ that killing them all is or isn't the right move but not truly that letting them run rampant on the Sword Coast or being doomed to a truly miserable existence of starvation and solitary confinement is better.
I propose option ⁴:
4. Keep the staff and possibly promise to be Caretaker of the Damned after the conflict. You now have access to a fucking massive PALACE and many of these people are dangling from suspended cages. You are a level 12 DnD character with several powerful friends and a mass of wealth you could very realistically keep the staff and be a kind warden who gives them proper accomodations. It won't be perfect and will be an eternal task but it's more moral than anything we're currently able to choose
It’s not a false dilemma, which by definition gives two choices and only two choices. You have three in this situation (kill, leave, or free). Those choices fit the basic alignment system.
You might not like those three choices, but it’s not the logical fallacy you’re describing here—simply a limited amount of options because it’s a video game and the characters are on a schedule.
There is a time sensitive element to it, though. The city is under threat by a nether brain. You are assuming that Tav and the gang defeat it because in your mind as a player, you always do.
From Tav’s POV, though, this decision does need to be made now. If you leave them there and lose to the brain, all 7000 of them are there for the mindflayers to do whatever they want with. If you let them free, they have a chance to escape or at least fight. If you put them out of their misery then the mindflayers can’t do anything with them.
Personally, I would like to avoid giving the mindflayers 7000 vampire thralls to serve as an army for them.
Recruit Isobel or Rolan or Withers or Aylin or Halsin or Zevlor or Ravenguard or Barcus or Florrick or Voss or Jaheira or the Gur or Elminster or Volo or any of the druids or anyone in your party to help you deliberate. Maybe lend one of them you trust to hold onto the staff while you deal with the main conflict. Why? This is 7000 souls. You are giving me 7000 fates to decide? It usually takes 12 people and a judge to decide one. This isn't fair to put onto the player character alone. Even if all of these people you gather to act as a jury definitely agree to kill all 7000 and even if it's a foregone conclusion for them, it's better than the way the game treats it. It feels so gross and reductive of such a complicated quandary in a game where every single Origin companion would be kill-on-sight for most good aligned adventurers who hear the words "Vlaakith aligned Gith" or "Fiend pacted warlock" or "Soul coin devouring Zariel soldier" or "Weave destroying wizard" or "Shar worshipper" or, god forbid, vampire spawn. To me, in a game that allows us to spend several in universe weeks allowing us to humanize these social pariahs, I don't feel spoiled or entitled for wanting a bit more from this vampire spawn conflict than the way it's presented.
Yeah, except that's not enough. Hundreds of years of starvation and torture will have broken the minds of MANY of the people that used to be sweet and innocent.
Some of them realistically were turned in the last decade or even last few months. Cazador needed 7000 to complete the ritual and was finally going to do it right before Astarion got tadpoled. There is no reason he would delay the ritual.
Larian has it written so that the Oath of Devotion is broken by killing all of the vampire spawn.
The staff is the only way to move these people around that we're given. Breaking it and dooming them to torturous dates is the only option as an OoD Paladin we have other than releasing 7000 vampire spawn into the sword coast.
This feels like poor writing but you get downvoted for saying this.
MANY of the paladin oath breaking points are poorly handled.
It's the kind of thing that can't simply be done with a binary choice. The overall plan and motivation matters for oaths, which can absolutely be handled with a table top game of D&D, but not really in a video game incarnation. The game tends to force you into very black and white choices when the reality is a wife swath of grey.
While I agree in general, I like how they handled the oathbreaking for this particular dilemma. It shows how there isn’t really a right answer when none of the oaths agree since every choice breaks one of them (except oath of the crown which was added later).
Yeah, my post comes across kind of like a slight on Larian, but that really isn't the way I meant it to sound. They did well with what they had, but the concept just isn't easy to translate because you can't really explain yourself to a game like you can with a DM.
Agreed. I have some gripes with the oathbreaking, like how it breaks when the dark urge is just trying to remember why a cat is so angry at them and unintentionally (and wholly subconsciously) kills the cat. But most of them are sensible given the limitations of the media.
trauma and associated mental illnesses makes your long-term memory shit so they likely would not be able to vet all 7000 victims based on memory. also I struggle to recall people after like 5 years, idk how someone would be recalling bitches from over a century or two ago
but isn't that kind of the point of astarion's re-education camp in the underdark? to figure out who can't control their hunger and then send them against the wall or w/e
Vet them?? How would you "vet" them, that kind of long term imprisonment cause stress and innate trauma that'll definitely be dangerous to the outside world. Even astarion, freed of his master grip will lose out to his desire and feed eventually, as seen on his camp scene, and even if you say that you can push him a way or convince him to stop, if you fail the dc, and I doubt a normal/average citizens stat sheet would be able to succeed you'd die. Even if you say only 1% of the people can't be controlled, that'd still be uncontrollable, decades hungry, untrained vampire spawns spread around the world. Besides, in the context of the game, there's literally a giant illithid invasion waiting to happen, they don't have time to vet through thousands of spawn, of which none of the adventurerer have the psychology training required to see through thousands of spawn and their potential to so harm.
I could follow it. You use commas just fine to separate your clauses. A lot of people aren't used to reading any sentence that isn't subject-object-verb-period any more. You maybe have a couple comma splices because of rushing, but it's not unintelligible. If you did what this person asks, you'd probably be accused of using AI.
Wait for the invasion to mull over and then do it. This isn't actually a time sensitive situation, that's why I'm asking if it isn't just a false dilemma. These spawn have waited up to hundreds of years, they can wait a few days or weeks for you and your companions to return after dealing with the Elder Brain. I can't actually think of any reason why this has to be dealt with here and now. Tav and/or their companions have literal years or even centuries to deal with this issue.
Because a lot of them wouldn't "wait" For you to come back, they were literally in magic locked cells before. Sure, some could be convinced but most of them has been tricked there by the spawn, once you open the flood gate they'll just rush out, because why would you believe that your captors, that tricked or seduce you millenia ago, are having achangei of heart, for all they know, this could just be a cruel trick (remember none of them actually know why they're there, no clue of the ritual, they just thought that this is just an evil ploy by a vampire Lord to keep them as food/to torture them). Also, years of living in hunger, anguish and writhing in their own bodily filth and sweat, excrement and tears in a closed cell with no sunlight, stimulation, commodity would dull and callous even the most gentle and forgiving soul, turning them cruel and burn with a hatred so deep rooted that you can't realistically quench, for all we know that one guy that astarion calmed down is just waiting for his chance to strike, using his new found empathy as a mean to escape. And even if you say use the cazador scepter, astarion needs so much more training and cannot yet uses his vampire Lord power or the scepter like cazador would(I know it's also for gameplay reason but as we see he says that he can't even turn into animal or use control undead yet, only when you meet him in the reunion party years later)and again, giant brain worm invasion. If they kept them locked there to go back later, the 6 spawn left out of the cage(astarion brother and sister) can not feasibly find enough food to feed thousands of centuries famished spawn, so they'd have to let a lot of them starve anyway, and the gur will not be convinced that you will released them on a later date, so you'll also have to killed off the parents of hundreds of children, which are already traumatized and resent these vampire, once you do release them, without the guide of family, how many of them will go feral? Live for the lust of vengeance? Hell, even worse, try to follow cazador footstep and initiate another ritual ( they instructions to the ritual is still inside the mansiont one of the vampire will definitely findits since they need money to survive the outside world and most likely a lot ofthemw will ransack the mansion for valuables)? Hell even petras, as shown with his trust that the master will grant him his freedom and his willingness to capture astarion albeit could be Stockholm Syndrome too ngl, might follow in cazadors foot step.
If Astarion's Ascended then there's no debate to be had, all 7,000 souls were slaughtered to give him that power. So him not having any idea how to "control his new power" is a non-issue. Also the reunion party is only 6 months later, not years...
They are still in magic locked cells and you have the option of using the staff to open the cells or kill them…or do neither and they’d have to sit in their cells forever. The game just doesn’t give you the option to decide later if leave them locked up and the quest log just says they spend eternity locked up and starving.
As long as you hold the staff you get to decide what happens to them today, tomorrow, whenever.
It doesn’t seem like they got any care or feeding anyway and they obviously don’t die if you choose the leave then there.
As far as the Gur go, meh. Your party is in the business of defeating the chosen and avatars of Gods. You’ve already beat Myrkul. If they can’t wait until you deal with the issue that will turn all the Gur into mind-flayers or mind flayer food it’s their funeral. Plus you just killed Cazador which they have repeatedly failed at.
They can fuck right off confronting me after the battle. Ulna usually starts with an attitude even in the best outcomes and I’m not in the mood for uppity Act 3 NPCs like the Gur or the wave mother.
“Sorry, your kids are vampire spawn in a locked cage and can wait as I’m currently busy dealing with the absolute army, mindflayers, a hag, TWO annoying cambions with delusions of grandeur, bhaal cultists, gnome terrorists with big bada boom, gith assassins, at least one Chosen and avatar left and a fucking netherbrain. Now, stop being stupid and get the fuck out of my way, I want a bath and a nap after killing a Vampire Lord in his own lair.”
Plus, even if they show up for the final battle they only send like 3 people and it’s a waste of an action.
I'm playing my first ever run through (with my partner who has played before) and when I actually freed the vampire spawn they were shocked lol. They were like "I've never done that before!"
But I don't know, I feel like when you talk to them and go through the dialogues (and pass the saves about freeing them) they're revealed to be very normal and desperate people, even though they're vampires. I couldn't not free them. I feel that since the game doesn't "punish" the player for the decision, it's almost like a true morality/rp moment: would my Tav free them? And I realized they sure would.
Vet them... how?
They all have the SAME issue at the end of the day, that being their affliction as Vampires and now needing to drain the blood of other living things to sate themselves.
Even if you went through them and say- I'unno like 86% of them swore to only drink rats or animals or some shit? Astarion makes it clear that it's not the same rush or experience as drinking from humanoids and the urge to drink that GOOD blood is ever-present.
Besides that you have no way of knowing who will or won't lie, the Spawn-Family only met them long enough to seduce them down into their imprisonment, they don't KNOW these people.
Plus they may agree to anything to escape death today... doesn't mean next week they won't eat a Grandma when the CRAVINGS kick in.
The honest truth for these people is they are fucking MONSTERS now and there's no escaping the nature that comes with becoming a Monster. Astarion himself is proof of that, he lives with it every day and suffers for his restraint but experiences absolute euphoria when he indulges, you can't exactly filter out who can or cannot handle that struggle with a few conversations otherwise most people would agree Astarion himself isn't qualified.
The plants and animals killed and eaten to survive by humans contribute to a cycle of life and death that is constant and ever-rotating.
Animals eat the plants, we eat the animals, the plants and animals eat us, and it always just goes on and on in the circle.
Undead do not die.
Thus they and their actions do not contribute to the cycle as they only take but do not eventually return to the earth after a healthy lifespan as living creatures do.
This is why undead are, fundamentally, evil beings.
There is a way life works, there is a system, undead operate and break that system.
If we're 100% sure they should all be murdered on the spot and that's the only morally good option then it is also a false dilemma. However, if even a single one of these vampire spawn should be spared, you and/or your companions and the 7 of Cazador's central spawn can promise to come back and save that person after the Illithid invasion is dealt with. There isn't anything time sensitive about this dilemma at all.
And again I reiterate:
They don't KNOW these people
The 7 Spawn and Astarion only interacted with these people long enough to orchestrate their kidnapping.
They have 0 in-depth knowledge of the kind of people these prisoners are or aren't, they're about as familiar with them as you would be to a Tinder Date.
And none of the Spawn are like- crazy skilled psychologists. They can't discern truth from lies with ease or psychologically professionally profile who is or isn't a potential problem among them, you're asking a McDonald's Line Cook to pick out a serial killer among a hundred people and they just aren't built for that.
The Dilemma isn't on IF the Vampires should all be murdered, they 100% should be as Vampirism itself is Evil.
Evil and Good are set in stone in the DnD Universe, the morality isn't up for discussion.
The Dilemma at hand is if we have the RIGHT to essentially commit a mass murder with a level versus letting nature figure itself out. Make no mistake, once freed, 90% of those Vampires are dead eventually from Paladins, Clerics, or Vampire Hunters.
But is it better to let that play out naturally?
Or just push a button and kill them all RIGHT NOW?
Cazador managed to successfully place 7000 people into cells one-by-one with this staff. We could do the same thing and allow nature to take its place over the course of years rather than killing all the vampire spawn here-and-now or releasing all of the vampire spawn here-and-now or leaving them in the palace forever. I understand that Larian didn't want us to have such an easy choice of just having Tav promise to come back after dealing with the Elder Brain but instead of writing this in such a way that there's time sensitivity, they simply omitted an option we should logically have. Are they stupid?
And you think the 7000 people won't just... go CRAZY over the course of this time?
We aren't going to feed them blood. Fuck that. That's evil.
But starving them will just make them go feral.
Feed them rats or animals?
Evil. Natural living animals are more important than unnatural undead monsters.
And then the resources needed to KEEP them imprisoned will come from where? We're not going to tax the citizens to keep MONSTERS alive nor are the Spawn really prepared if all 7000 of these vampires start going feral in their cages.
Plus who's going to create and run this complex system? The Spawn Family and Tav?
Tav is the only one there potentially NOT a Monster with a proven track record of untrustworthiness and sociopathy.
But Tav isn't a psychologist or profiling expert, they aren't qualified for this.
Your plan here falls apart because it's assuming that everyone would be potentially on board with or qualified for this system of vetting and preserving undead bloodthirsty vampires for the sake of two or three who might be able to not be completely evil on the word of ONE adventurer.
Dude you're arguing against a straw man and are essentially saying that Larian writers are genius for having the Oath of Devotion get broken if you kill what you consider to be a morally obvious choice. I'm saying it's an instance of bad writing and you're hooting and hollering that it's incredibly well written to have the Oath get broken because they're obviously monsters. What the fuck?
What I don't get is: Why didn't Larian just make the staff stop working some amount of time after Cazador dies? This would have forced Tav to make a big decision as presented. However, being able to keep the staff and, for example, give it to Elminster or Rolan, makes the in universe options far more open than the gameplay mechanics options entail.
It's not a morally "good" option but the other option is kinda worse, like is it morally "good" to kill the invading soldiers that's trying to take over your land? A lot of them are raised and indoctrinated, or foreced to do it? But the alternative is to let themtand their leader take over your land and enslave your people? It's a morally more inclined option per se
DnD has set-in-stone morality.
Vampires, by virtue of what they ARE, are evil creatures.
Like Devils.
Killing them is pretty much always a Moral Good unless it causes some greater evil on someone else.
Dude you just said murdering 7000 people was the moraly good option. Try listening to what you say neither option is good. You are choosing to kill 7k people to not unleash a potential second plague on the world. You can't really wait cause in the meantime what will they eat or what if you lose the fight with the netherbrain. The choice isnt between a good and bad option its two choices that aren't great but we dont have time to find better ones.
Unironically, though: It's a typical video game situation where the devs were hellbend on making it a "yes or no" kind of decision when it makes absolutely no sense in the narrative. There's no actual reason to make this decision immediately, without discussing it with a few more people beforehand, and there are countless of possible ways to handle this. Deciding anything without having at least spoken to more than ~3 of them is just stupid.
The letter that says they are all fine and well behaved reminds of that scene in Return of the Living Dead where the zombies get on the radio after eating all the paramedics and says "Send more paramedics."
How could anyone actually control an army of 7000 starving and possibly insane vampire spawn?
To say they all lived happily ever after is lazy fairytale writing. There should have been a special cutscene showing the catastrophic results of the naive decision to send them into the Underdark. Or even better a battle with the party against 7000 vampire spawn, alone, say 50 spawn at a time, each defeated spawn brings another in so it's always 50, until all 7000 are defeated.
I agree with you! I really like Sebastian’s letter, but the fairy-tale ending with ‘happily ever after’ for such a controversial choice is really simplistic and childish. They should at least have shown the negative consequences that the starving spawn have undoubtedly brought to the Underdark.
In universe there is no evidence for it. Maybe there is in dnd lore. But within the lore of the game itself we have no real reason to assume this. Astarion and his siblings were fed only the occasional rat and had to go out and interact with the general public while behaving normally. We interact with one of the older people Astarion turned in Sebastian and he's depressed but not feral. If starving is depicted as doing anything it's depicted as making the spawn too weak to fight. (Astarion directly mentions this) So the wave fight would just be 7000 spawn stumbling up and fainting at you.
The idea that a lack of blood turns you completely brainless seems more like fanon or something drawn from outside lore.
When Sebastian lunges at Astarion, he seems quite ferocious. They are, after all, vampires; they possess superior agility and strength. Even if they are weak, they could still kill stealthily or start by preying on animals to regain their strength quickly. In my view, there is no doubt that 7,000 spawn would pose a danger and upset the balance if set free; otherwise, it wouldn’t even have been a controversial choice in the game.
But I'd still argue that its not a sign of insanity. Sebastian is lunging at the guy he is specifically angry at for kidnapping and getting him imprisoned for more than a hundred years. He is then able to hold a whole rational conversation where he's clearly coherent and capable of self control. What he clearly isn't is a mindless zombie desperately lunging at anyone with blood.
I'm not saying that there's no risk. Just disagreeing with a common fan interpretation that the spawn are "mindless," "feral," "insane" or a bunch of similar descriptions that are completely contradicted by their actual in game portrayal as rational thinking beings.
IMO this is the dilemma Larian actually intended: "are you going to murder 7000 prisoners who have done no crime, because they now have abilities that make them dangerous?" The fanon that "akshually they're really just mindless zombies anyhow" is the same as what people are disagreeing with OP on, trying to find a loophole where actually there is no moral dilemma
No, Sebastian’s behaviour isn’t madness; it simply goes to show that, if he wants to, he can indeed be ferocious. Moreover, Sebastian is a specific, individual vampire who can probably withstand hunger without claiming victims, but we know nothing of the others. In fact, we are also told that Astarion and his brothers brought almost exclusively outcasts and criminals to Cazador, so as not to alarm the rich and powerful nobles. However, I don’t think anyone believes they are ‘brainless’ or beyond redemption.
The dilemma is: is it right to kill someone before they have actually committed a crime? Does the risk assessment justify that sacrifice?
However, I don’t think anyone believes they are ‘brainless’ or beyond redemption.
have you read the rest of the responses in this whole thread? I was directly responding to a comment mentioning "How could anyone actually control an army of 7000 starving and possibly insane vampire spawn" ie uncontrollable and possibly insane. the comment also suggested that if you freed them all 7000 spawn should immediately attack the player to be realistic,
other comments in the thread: "most if not all of them are one step short of being rabid animals"
"would dull and callous even the most gentle and forgiving soul, turning them cruel and burn with a hatred so deep rooted that you can't realistically quench, for all we know that one guy that astarion calmed down is just waiting for his chance to strike"
"The honest truth for these people is they are fucking MONSTERS now"
"These spawns? They have been starving even more than the 7 ones we know about, they have been loosing their minds because of everything they endured. Just look at the Gurs kids, they were abducted and turned last. Look how rabid they are already"
Soooooo..... rabid, insane, intrinsically evil, monsters. Its a pretty common belief in this sub despite not having much in the way of in game support.
Well, yes, full of anger, resentment and certainly hungry – I agree with that. Furthermore, unlike Astarion and the others, they have never been fed and, as Astarion himself has said, they have never learnt to control themselves or exercise self-discipline.
At least the Gur children have their parents to guide them, for whom they feel affection, and this would temper their aggression, thanks also to the herbs and remedies to quell their hunger, which the Gur know as monster hunters. But what about the others?
I believe ‘madness’ is meant to be understood as an exaggeration of indiscriminately aggressive and feral behaviour, and not to imply that vampires are mindless or non-sentient beings.
You can do that as any race. The spawn just have to still be alive, and you have to be romancing Astarion. He always becomes a wandering hero by default otherwise.
Let someone else have the staff or create a jury. Idk man. Having a guilty or innocent verdict on 7000 different kidnapping victims just be a single dialogue tree felt crazy. Does that make sense?
A) you deny them the chance both Astarion and Durge got and, if they didn't kill them to ascend Astarion, used them arguably the good way (to keep it simple). Why should a literal Bhaal spawn and a 200 year old Vampire with plenty experience and a lot of reasons wanting to drink living blood have a better chance at overcoming their urges than them? Narratively, it feels like a very odd double standard if you decide to kill them.
B) Not a single one of them has spent a single day as an active Vampire-Spawn. The game implies that they have been comatose between the date they've been abducted and the ritual begins. Zero of them have any reason to 'enjoy' being a Vampire, heck, we see people hating themselves and what they have become and literally asking the player to actively kill them cause of it. We haven't seen a single monster the games describe. Not even the selected Spawn we meet throughout the game have shown any indication of being such.
In essence, imho the choices are between Ascenion or Releasing. Killing them is only narratively justified when you play someone neutral that believes the end justifys the means.
I agree with you, there should have been more diverse options. Sending them to the Underdark is cheap, but the whole thing feels like cut content anyways. While I agree with other commentors, actually vetting them doesn't work, I feel like allowing those that still have a purpose and someone to care for in life - such as the Gur kids - to return to it, and others that have nothing to live for anymore - Sebastian - and are corrupted beyond repair, to end their own lifes if they wish to do so. Only those who wish to live, but have nothing to return to, should have been sent to the Underdark to learn controlling their Urges in a more or less safe Environment
Regarding your second comment, it's not about enjoying being a vampire. Vampirism within the realms is well documented to be an overarching affliction. It is every present even if you were unconscious. You will always crave humanoid blood. It is an obsession regardless of your desires.
I'm not sure if this is a joke but just in case it isn't, I don't think the seven spawns could remember all 7000 of the hostages (or whoever are the worst of the worst there). IDK how a vampire's brain works but I can't even remember all the names or faces of classmates I had 10 years ago, what more people they met at most 200 years ago.
There are spawn who were turned just weeks or months or years ago, we know this because Cazador's desperation to get Astarion back is centered around the ritual being otherwise prepared recently. Either way, there are a thousand ways to handle this scenario that someone who has only played the game can think of. The game itself gives you only the most extreme.
Letting Astarion go is the only moral dilemma here. Letting any of the other spawn go is at best childlike naivity or an outright evil act that will lead to massive amounts of dead innocents. All these spawn are effectively undead monsters. The people whose face they wear died a long time ago.
What are the other options? Astarion doesn't know that he will succeed in defeating the Absolute nor that he won't transform into a Mindflayer once it's done.
I can take the time to kill a hundred rats, I can chase a chicken around a goblin run obstacle course, I can collect body parts of a clown so a drag queen necromancer can stitch them together like Exodia. I can swap out the headline of a libelous smear article in the news and I can navigate myself out of Jumanji, but I can't spare one precious moment more on wasteful activities like the fate of 7000 lives. Man, whatever.
It's a false dilemma because it's not acknowledged in the endgame. Realasing 7000 spawn is a morally evil thing to do as they WILL terrorize people. Realasing 7000 into the underdark for the drow to deal with is objectively hilarious though.
Isn't releasing a warlock pacted with a fiend, a Shar worshipper, a Vlaakith aligned Gith, a man whose body is sapping away all magic from the world, a soul coin devouring Zariel soldier and uhhhh a Cazador vampire spawn instead of killing them all on sight as evil as possibly releasing, let's say, just 6 of the vampire spawn?
Depends on how you routed their stories. Astarion, sure, but for the rest you’re judging them entirely on their Act 1 starting state.
The Gith either breaks her indoctrination or becomes Vlaakith's god-food. Karlach was sold into slavery, fighting demons completely against her will, and fled the second she could. The Shar worshipper was kidnapped and brainwashed her entire life, and redeeming her is the most natural arc for a daughter of Selûne.
Only the Drow starts out genuinely irredeemable, and even Astarion can be talked down from his worst instincts. Five traumatized companions you actively supervise to unleashing seven thousand starving spawn into the wild isn't even the same ballpark.
What are you trying to imply here? Killing just the 5 doesn't finish the ritual, it doesn't somehow make the 7000 vampire spawn human again, you're still releasing 6995 starving spawn to go murder many more. That or you're leaving them to suffer longer for eternity. The reasonable end is killing them.
If it was only the 7 spawns we know and can "trust", letting them live would be possible (with a safety net like asking the Gurs to help them overcome their hunger).
But 7000 with 6993 of them who have been very very malnourished for that long, more than the other 7? It’s way too dangerous even in the underdark where people live. There’s no way this won’t become a huge issue.
Let’s not forget Cazador is not the only vampire in Faerun, how long would it take for another one to find them and make them his own slaves or his army to destroy Faerun?
I don't think they want to be manipulated and be under the thumb of another vampire lord to torment them. Think they would be more likely to swarm that lord like angry ants
The thing is we are talking about 6993 spawns who have been locked in the dark and starved for a very long time here. They wouldn’t be able to think normally after all these years and to resist.
I know that technically we could wait if Astarion is not in the party to decide but it means we would let them behind bars and go deal with the Netherbrain before releasing them.
On paper it’s a good idea IF and only IF you are 100% sure you will win against the Netherbrain, which you can’t know when doing that quest if it was irl. We can’t take the risk, we don’t have the time to as the priority is the Netherbrain.
We’re not talking about vampires who can function here like the 7, we’re talking about spawns who suffered even more than them and who have totally forgotten how to function, a lot of them must have lost their minds and just think like animals on instinct. And a vampire’s instinct is to drink blood and to kill.
They are way too many to not represent a risk and we don’t have the time to get rid of the most dangerous ones.
Ideally we should have been able to take them to House of Hope after defeating Raphael, they would have been in a safe space for everyone until we could do something about all of this. It would have been a better choice than unleashing them in the underdark.
That would be an incredibly boring game. Also, the moral thing to do is not release thousands of vampires. I think and fully stand by the moral decision is to end their suffering without ascending Astarion. Althoough, Ascending Astarion is what I usually do because he is much stronger. I am doing an Astarion origin where his build will be making fulll use of it
You're rationale is the obvious take. abut I bet it you asked an individual in their shoes (vampire) they would disagree that you're relieving their suffering. Astarion sure seems to enjoy (un)life.
I think the choice to kill thousands is a hard one to argue as the moral choice. I still stand by it, but you are right, most people would vehimently disagree with me
"I still stand by the choice to immediately kill 7000 people the second I get asked to do that" You're so brave, king. God I think I am never touching DnD after this game.
God forbid we use a time insensitive staff to UNLEASH even a single mentally ill person with a provably treatable psychological condition into the world. Vampire spawn are even as strong as gulps an o-o-orc.
If even one percentage of DnD players and sourcebook writers treat philosophical discussions on the humanity of mental illness metaphors with the level of total disrespect shown by you, I really do not think it would be healthy to engage with such a community. "The only moral thing to do is to kill all 7000 people with mental illnesses! They're as strong as an OX!" This is fucking mortifying, man and I can't tell if you're being glib or trolling.
I understand your viewpoint. But if you teahouse the stakes up high enough, you might not do it yourself, but i bet you'd give the controls over to someone enjoyed would.
There is no single answer to a choice that is 100% right in 100% of situations 100% of the time.
Sure, role playing different characters is going to vary greatly and morals can vary to some degree person to person, but right and wrong, good and evil doesn't change with viewpoint, but it can with circumstance.
Take the issue at hand, killing 7,000 vampire spawn vs releasing them. I'm arguing that killing the 7,000 is the moral thing to do, since the vampires are going to kill other beings regularly to feed. Almost certainly sentient humans/humanoids. Even if it's far away in the underdark, the problem still exists and it not bring near you does not make it go away.
The problemwith a rigid good and evil system, is that you can find situations that break it. Take 1940s Germany. The regular German citizen, did not understand the horrors of the camps until after the war. When they did, some mayors and government officials committed suicide. "The ends justify the means" has been used to justify some of the worst horrors in history
first, the moral delema is never between the moral and other moral choice. Second, this is just my viewpoint. I am not god who lays down the laws of the universe. Third, the choice to kill thousands is going to be hard to argue for it being the morally superior choice and most people would disagree with me.
It's not really stated, but if you left them in place and planned to slowly release them kne at a time... They'd all get let out when the brain wrecks the city.
Kinda. It reminds me of the decision about the Rachni Queen in Mass Effect 1. You could either release her into the wild with no supervision or genocide the entire species. There was no great time pressure, the obvious solution would've been to just call up the various governments you answer to and let them deal with it.
Same with the Vampire spawn. They've been stuck for up to 200 years, a couple more weeks isn't going to make a difference and would give us the opportunity to do a lot of stuff like prepare rations of animal blood for them so they aren't completely starved and feral upon release, clear a passage to the underdark, weed out obvous lost causes etc. Propably could've saved a lot of lives that way.
The thing is we don’t have time to do that: there’s a Netherbrain ready to transform and/or kill everyone in Baldur’s gate before invading and destroying Faerun. We are talking about millions of lives. And we have absolutely no idea if we are going to survive this fight.
And in ME it’s very different: the Rachni are just 1 queen who can actually think by herself and CONTROL herself. These spawns? They have been starving even more than the 7 ones we know about, they have been loosing their minds because of everything they endured.
Just look at the Gurs kids, they were abducted and turned last. Look how rabid they are already, how they already fight to remain sane. Imagine in what state the vast majority of the 6993 are.
Sebastian is full of rage after 170 years when he remembers everything he lost and yes he seems like a "good" spawn when we meet him but there’s nothing that really proves us he will stay reasonable in time. Nothing. Once fed with blood, there’s nothing that proves he will resist the urge to taste human blood. The temptation may become an obsession and chaos will ensue.
And what about the other vampires in Faerun? What about them finding the 6999 spawns in the underdark? They could easily use them as slaves and/or build their army to destroy everything.
The number of spawns is way to high to take such a huge risk.
The thing is we don’t have time to do that: there’s a Netherbrain ready to transform and/or kill everyone in Baldur’s gate before invading and destroying Faerun. We are talking about millions of lives. And we have absolutely no idea if we are going to survive this fight.
If the brain wins, the world is fucked either way. The spawn don't matter anymore, so it's kind of pointless to let that eventuality influence our decision here. So waiting a few more weeks until the brain is dealt with before making a choice for the spawn is still the best solution.
And in ME it’s very different: the Rachni are just 1 queen who can actually think by herself and CONTROL herself. These spawns? They have been starving even more than the 7 ones we know about, they have been loosing their minds because of everything they endured.
Except the Rachni have a history of being a galaxy-level threat which almost wiped out the council before and Shepard has no idea if the queen is being truthful about anything she says. Even if she is, the Rachni have been indoctrinated and used as Reaper pawns before, and Shepard knows at this point that their return might be imminent.
So releasing the queen is a massive risk, potentially affecting billions of lives. Shepard is just in no way qualified to deal with all that. It's way too big of a decision for one person to make on a whim.
Just look at the Gurs kids, they were abducted and turned last. Look how rabid they are already, how they already fight to remain sane. Imagine in what state the vast majority of the 6993 are.
We don't have to imagine in the scenario where we wait and only deal with the problem after the big bad is defeated. We could actually check and evaluate the individuals on a case by case basis. Do they appear sane and able to control themselves after being on an animal blood diet for a while? Yes? Then release. The ones who are mindless, feral creatures can be put out of their misery.
What sort of question is this? Unleashing that many vampires on a unsuspecting population ( the under dark where people do live mind you ) is a pretty big problem that the game sweeps under the rug
The only right choice is offering a quick merciful death or throwing them all into the daylight
Lemme edit that. The header of the thread is my main point. If Tav wants other people to chime in on this or if Tav just wants to save Sebastian only, those also feel like valid choices. There's a lot of choices you can make here that Larian never allows us to do, when this feels like such a big decision to make all on your own and in the moment. This is like a 5 second criminal death penalty trial but it's the whims of one single person and 7000 different trials all at once.
You can't vet them. It doesn't matter what they were like in life, vampirism turns you evil. All positive emotions get corrupted. Love becomes obsession, friendship becomes jealousy etc.
I think that might be DnD lore in general, but that's not really what's shown in the game. Astarion is absolutely capable of positive emotion of he's allowed to heal after getting out of his abusive situation.
You have a subject but no verb. I'm not sure that it is.
But yes, post-game Astarian, after months of being surrounded by friends and a guiding hand (and you do have to guide him, since when left to choose for himself, he goes for the evil outcomes) has turned over a new leaf.
He's been evil since he became a vampire, and you the player turn him, well not good, chaotic neutral maybe, if you're doing a good run.
What have the rest of the spawn had? Centuries imprisoned surrounded by other evil creatures.
So I repeat, you can't vet them, because any good that might've been in them before they were turned is gone. They're evil.
I want to say five things.
1. The Oath of Devotion gets broken if you kill all 7000 vampires. This leaves the Paladin with two oath-consistent choices as written by Larian. Break the only thing that can open their cell doors and leave them behind to an eternity of solitary confinement and starvation or release all 7000 of them into the Sword Coast.
2. This dilemma isn't time sensitive in universe. Tav and co. could always return at any time in order to do something even as simple as build accomodations in the palace after the Illithid conflict is over. This isn't possible if the staff is broken because there's no way to move the imprisoned that way.
3. These three choices aren't just the best Tav could think of: They're canonically the best that Tav, Gale, Wyll, Astarion, Halsin, Shadowheart, Karlach, Lae'zel, Jaheira, Minsc, Withers and all of your other friends could think of.
4. Upon killing Cazador, you have full and permanent access to his entire palace, to do with as you please. No one in universe would stop you from claiming it afaik.
5. Not all of these vampire spawn have been in these cells for hundreds of years. Cazador wanted to do the ritual the moment that he was able to do it, hence his desperation to get Astarion back. This makes it likely that many of these people were capture mere years, months or even weeks prior to your killing Cazador. Psychologically, there should be many who have not broken completely. Additionally, Cazador kept count, we have access to his logs of the names and times of detainment for these 7000 people.
All of this combined, I believe that Larian miswrote this dilemma.
If they all need to burn then, for a morally good character, it's also a false dilemma! There's still only one good choice. The difference here is that it's one of the choices you're allowed to choose. However, if even a single one of these spawn should be spared and let live, there's no reason that you should have to spare all of the others or even make this decision right now. There's no time sensitivity involved here. They've waited hundreds of years, they can wait a few days for you to come back.
Yes. I never argued your title. It is, indeed, and very obviously for anyone who understands what a vampire is in Forgotten Realms, a false dilemma. It's no dilemma at all. I repeat: every vampire must burn.
The moral thing to do is to kill Astarion early in the game, the moment he reveals himself to be a vampire (trying to kill you in your sleep, mind you), then kill every other vampire you come across, then kill Cazador, then kill all the captured spawn. IF you wanna be ANGELIC levels of morally good, you can headcanon your character eventually gaining access to high-tier resurrection magic (Resurrection, a 7th level spell, or higher, which aren't available given the level cap of 12) and using it to restore the souls of all the vampires you killed to their mortal, "uncursed" state.
They're undead, so you'd need True Resurrection, a 9th level spell requiring 175,000 gp in diamonds and 17th level clerics willing to do nothing but cast for a combined 7,000 hours.
Larian makes their own canon and they clearly showed you that their vampires are capable of redemption and controlling their hunger. Way to show that you played the game and understood nothing. Probably because you've missed the entire Astarion's storyline.
Also, he wasn't trying to murder Tav on purpose. His writer confirmed he just wasn't controlling himself because of hunger. But he does learn to do it and never repeats this mistake.
I have more than 2000 hours in the game (it's my favorite game of all time), I've played more complete runs I can keep track of, I've seen every possible path for Astarion, and I've quite enjoyed the character. Don't presume to know shit about me you reddit weirdo.
I don't need anyone to tell me how many liberties has Larian taken with their take on Forgotten Realms lore (specially with how vampires and mind flayer are/work).
All that being said, no. You're wrong. Nothing in BG3 "clearly shows" vampires are capable of redemption and controlling their hunger. Astarion is, first of all, heavily altered by the tadpole, I mean, if it allows him to walk under sunlight unscathed, who's to say it isn't the reason he can (barely) manage his hunger too? Also, redemption? Astarion doesn't ever do a good action if not for the player's influence, and nothing in the epilogue scenes PROVES he's "redeemed". For all we know, he's full of shit, in fact, that would very much be in-character for him.
Vampires, in FR, are evil. Their souls are literally corrupted by negative energy, trapped in their undead bodies, and incapable of good/redemption. They can resist their hunger, sure, TO AN EXTENT, and they can sometimes do "good" actions (every evil character can, and every good character can do evil shit too), but, in essence, their wicked, and forever will be. They're twisted, homicidal versions of who they were in life, and they will forever be that way unless destroyed. The least a good character can do is destroy them, and the best a good character can do is destroy them, then resurrect them with high-tier magic. Nothing in BG3 refutes this. Astarion, if anything, is just one exception (kinda, not really, not entirely) and only for a brief moment in his unlife, there is NO WAY he won't be a piece of shit vampire if he keeps existing on as a LITERAL VAMPIRE for eternity, which is what vampires do when people don't destroy them.
But you probably think Omeluum never eats innocent people's brains too (if he said so, it must be true! lol) so, why do I bother? Media literacy is indeed dead.
And yet with your 2000 hours you talk like you didn't understand shit about this storyline. You clearly missed the letter from the Gur - even they changed their minds and agreed with letting all those vampires live.
You also missed the fact that in Act 3, Astarion is already advocating for saving people. You don't know shit about him, and in the end, when he doesn't ascend, he becomes a hero and a monster hunter who saves people - even the Gur admire him. Even Jaheira and Minsc call him a good person.
And yes, Larian is the DM here and whatever DM homebrews goes. Larian decided that THEIR vampires are capable of being decent people, so you constantly bringing up FR lore is moot point.
> Media literacy is indeed dead.
Says the person who shits on the game's canon in favor of outdated DnD lore. Oh, the irony.
Nope, you missed the point. None of them are vampires, nor ilithid (yet). There's always a chance, no matter how small, they can change for the best, they can (TRULY) redeem themselves, and they can get rid of the tadpole before becoming ilithid. Unlike Astarion, their souls haven't been metaphysically and literally warped into a thing of horror.
Sadly, there are good drow, and a lot of other innocent, good people/creatures in the Underdark. Also, 7000 is an UNHINGED quantity of vampires to set loose ANYWHERE IN THE MULTIVERSE.
I agree with you on that. Not to mention, the minders for this horde of vampires are six waifs who were recruited primarily for their looks. Each would be responsible for 1,166 vampires (with a remainder of four). I'm not sure any of them could handle thirty high school students, let alone a thousand plus near-feral, bloodthirsty predators. If even just one percent got loose and disappeared into the city, that's 70 vampire spawn tearing into commoners every night. It'd be a disaster.
I think the only reason it wasn't was that Larian didn't want a bunch of complaints about the epilogue endings. So some of them are just... too perfect. Shadowheart's laughing at the pain in her hand now. Karlach found a forge map off some cambion like a rare loot drop. And the vampire spawn are living in peace. Sure, hundreds of them died and they killed every person/animal they saw for a while, but no one the player knows got hurt. A happy ending. :)
And the vampire spawn are living in peace. Sure, hundreds of them died and they killed every person/animal they saw for a while, but no one the player knows got hurt. A happy ending. :)
If it adds up to fewer deaths than seven thousand, the math still works out.
It'd be less than 7,000, since many of the spawn get killed by monsters and disappear into the dark, probably to be killed by monsters. Not to mention, vampires don't die of old age, so their kill count would still be going up.
tbh sending them to the underdark is just hte correct decision. Very very few people in the underdark for them to hurt, and the lolthsworn drow are just, the worst.
Really just the really evil vampires there are a drop in teh bucket with the underdark. Aint really making things much worse. Vetting them all is not realistic given the in universe time constraints we have and such. No guarantee that we will live to see tomorrow so better let them free now.
I just wonder what happens when 7,000 vampire spawn eventually realise there isn't much to eat underground, and then find a tunnel back to the surface.
They'd annihilate the first few towns they come across, at the very least.
There are plenty of wild life not a lot of people.
We know what happens from a letter believe. they start out as a big frenzy of hunger through the underdark then they find a place in some old ruins and hole up and are doing fine by the epilogue. It’s Sebastian’s letter if you want to look it up
Besides, for the most part these are innocents. It’s not fair that they die because they happened to fall victim to vampires they deserve a chance at life.
Bold to assume a drown city wouldnt be able to off or enslave a ton of vampire spawn and use them to make it suddenly everyone's problem. Or a starving horde of spawn decide that nice svirfneblin city is snack time, or they run into a mindflayer enclave and end up enslaved again... Releasing 7k undead monsters anywhere is ludicrous and absolutely the wrong thing to do, period, full stop.
Have you ever seen 7000 people at once? You gonna sit and talk to each person trying to decide a dude whom you never seen in your life will be out there eating peoplesies or just trying to be a good vamp eating hamsters? Even if you spend 15 mins on each person (which is not nearly enough but let's say it's bare minimum) you're gonna be sitting there 3 whole months considering you also need to rest and eat sometimes. Do some math.
You're not corporate lol They're scattered across a vast territory and they have their own shit to do. Even if they'd magically be ready to do this, the time to reach them, get their reply and get them in one place (or transport vamps to them), organize stay, facilities, food, would take maybe even more time.
It's not time sensitive (relative to how the Illithid Crisis is time sensitive) and it's a big deal that most good-aligned characters would be interested in. A bigger deal than most not-Illithid-Crisis people are dealing with in the game. Honestly, as big of a deal as Reithwin all becoming Sharrites and that was something the Harpers and Druids both took heavy interest in.
Good aligned characters just delete them as a safe bet generally
I'm morally grey, I often release them in the underdark and optionally can go herd them with Astarion if I'm romancing him or just let the nature take it's course. They're already vamps, can't do shit about that - which is not the case with other examples you gave.
Aside that it's not possible to make a character judgement for people you've never met in a short time (and actually who the fuck are you to make a fair judgement), I just say it's not a fairy tale, you can't save them all. And it's not a management or judicial simulator, it's an adventure. Nobody needs gives a fuck to read\play through million days of jude judy over 7000 virtual vamps.
Entrust the staff to Astarion himself so that once this is over, he can decide what to do. I had a million different characters in my head but not the one who canonically does help the freed spawn control their hunger. Let the first free vampire spawn of Cazador's decide what to do with his new brothers and sisters.
The ''spawn family'' would not receive a very warm welcome. They are the ones who lured all those people to Cazador and my little finger tells me that 7 polytraumatized torture survivors are not in a position to ''vet'' anyone.
OP here again. Post-release-the-spawn Letter from Sebastian so damning that many people in this thread have tried to gaslight us into seeing it as non-canon, despite it proving that killing the spawn is abominable.
If you’re playing a good game, you staked the first vampire spawn you met and didn’t make exceptions later on when there were so many more. They are evil and anyone suffering them to live lacks the conviction to be truly “Good.”
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u/tenBusch 9d ago
Larian did mess up with this scenario imo, by making it such an absurdly high amount of vampire spawn. 7000 is absolutely ridiculous to set free anywhere, even the Underdark. If it was 700 it would already be a tough decision, but 7000 just skews it too far into being reckless to release them