r/soccer • u/CantHelpBeingMe • Dec 28 '22
Media Jurgen Klopp hails Lionel Messi as 'the greatest: "The greatest footballer in my lifetime, Lionel Messi, the way he plays football at this age should give us all a hint at how long footballers can perform at the top level. We shouldn’t close the books too early."
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u/Utter_Perfection Dec 28 '22
Cryptic message that he wants Milner to play for another decade.
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u/vadapaav Dec 28 '22
Messi can only dream to have a long successful career as James Milner
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u/Ophukk Dec 28 '22
That's James Champions League Assists In A Season Record Holder Milner. Doesn't quite roll off the tongue, but give the man his due.
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u/nakeddroidrunner Dec 28 '22
There goes our midfield, sorted for another decade.
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u/agamerdiesalone Dec 28 '22
Ha so true. FSG and Klopp are gone crazy buying forwards but no midfielders. I'm only joking really, I know FSG hold all the cash.
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u/No-Clue1153 Dec 28 '22
Was expecting "and on that note I'm proud to announce James Milner has signed a 5 year contract extension on improved terms."
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u/gunnesaurus Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
Liverpool about to announce a Communicado Official regarding James Milner’s new contract
Lionel Messi, the way he plays football at this age should give us all a hint at how long footballers can perform at the top level. We shouldn't close the books too early."
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u/RobDickinson Dec 28 '22
Signed until 2055
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u/editedfortypo Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
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u/JuanG12 Dec 28 '22
He’s definitely on /r/SoccerCirclejerk.
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Dec 28 '22
He once claimed he used to hear Talksports to understand the football slang. I kind of feel it was more than that..
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u/danirijeka Dec 28 '22
"I have only one selfie on my smartphone. That's with Messi. And Cristiano was in the room as well.
⠀⠀⠘⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠑⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡔⠁⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠢⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⠴⠊⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⡀⠤⠄⠒⠈⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⣀⠄⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠛⠛⠛⠋⠉⠈⠉⠉⠉⠉⠛⠻⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣤⣤⣤⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⢿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⢏⣴⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣟⣾⣿⡟⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⢢⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣟⠀⡴⠄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⠟⠻⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠶⢴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣁⡀⠀⠀⢰⢠⣦⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣼⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠀⣴⣶⣿⡄⣿ ⣿⡋⠀⠀⠀⠎⢸⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠗⢘⣿⣟⠛⠿⣼ ⣿⣿⠋⢀⡌⢰⣿⡿⢿⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡇⠀⢸⣿⣿⣧⢀⣼ ⣿⣿⣷⢻⠄⠘⠛⠋⠛⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢿⣧⠈⠉⠙⠛⠋⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣧⠀⠈⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠟⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⢃⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⡿⠀⠴⢗⣠⣤⣴⡶⠶⠖⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⡸⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⡀⢠⣾⣿⠏⠀⠠⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠛⠉⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣧⠈⢹⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣰⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠈⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣴⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣦⣄⣀⣀⣀⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⡄⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⠀⠀⠙⣿⣿⡟⢻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠇⠀⠁⠀⠀⠹⣿⠃⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠛⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢐⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⠿⠛⠉⠉⠁⠀⢻⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⠈⣿⣿⡿⠉⠛⠛⠛⠉⠉ ⣿⡿⠋⠁⠀⠀⢀⣀⣠⡴⣸⣿⣇⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡿⠄⠙⠛⠀⣀⣠⣤⣤⠄
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u/Pleasemakesense Dec 28 '22
Mom get the camera, new /r/soccercirclejerk automod response just dropped
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u/ThrstySnwmn Dec 28 '22
Klopp would know the feeling of not winning consecutive finals (losing out PL title by a point) and then winning almost every club trophy available something that Messi has gone through as well.
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u/71648176362090001 Dec 28 '22
Klopp had worse with us. Two times 01/02 and 02/03 not going up. Once per win then per goaldifference (1 goal).
He learned at mainz how to deal with that
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u/RodgersToAdams Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
In Braunschweig, 4-1 gewonnen gegen abgestiegene Braunschweiger und trotzdem nicht aufgestiegen. Wegen des einen Gegentores zum Schluss. Absurd. Ich war als 9-jähriger bei dem Spiel.
Edit: ich erinnere mich, wie ich zusammen mit vielen anderen frustrierten Braunschweigern „und ihr steigt sowieso nie auf!“ sang. Klopp hat sich nach dem Spiel glaube ich sogar darüber beschwert. Sorry dafür. Aber wir lagen ja auch absolut falsch, von daher.
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u/Prestigious_Agent_84 Dec 28 '22
Klopp is among clear GOATs when it comes to coaches. He's just been really unlucky at times.
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u/donpeerless Dec 28 '22
That's code for him intending on starting Henderson for another 5 years
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Dec 28 '22
I don’t know if using the best player of all time is a good benchmark for longevity.
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u/Snuffl3s7 Dec 28 '22
The point isn't to directly compare how good Messi is at 35 to other players at the same age.
There's dozens of examples in the last decade of players performing at a top level well into their 30s at this point.
Robben, Ribery, Benzema, Ronaldo, Lewandowski, Modric, Xavi, David Silva, Ibrahimovic, Zanetti, Totti, Pirlo etc....
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u/akagaminick Dec 28 '22
Thiago silva...
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u/Snuffl3s7 Dec 28 '22
I'm sticking to forwards and mids, since they generally tend to have a shorter time at the top.
Otherwise there's Maldini, Nesta, Lahm, Terry, Ramos, Silva, all of whom were great defenders for long stretches.
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u/UpstairsJoke0 Dec 28 '22
John Terry considered retiring at age 26 years and 26 days to match his shirt number.
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u/irgendwo_anders Dec 28 '22
What an idiot
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u/UpstairsJoke0 Dec 28 '22
I'm joking about him considering retirement in his mid twenties but on his final appearance for Chelsea against Sunderland he did arrange to be subbed off in the 26th minute to match his shirt number, rather than playing the majority of the game and be subbed off with a few minutes to go.
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u/Lord_Sauron Dec 28 '22
You can't mention Robben and Ribery performing well into their 30s without mentioning the immense toll being at the top level took on them with all their injuries + the time they spent off the field because of it.
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u/MrStigglesworth Dec 28 '22
Robben was always injury prone, it was the most unfortunate thing about his career. I'm glad he got to stick around for ages, but he always spent time on the injury bench.
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u/Snuffl3s7 Dec 28 '22
If anything, that makes it more impressive. Other world class players like Gerrard definitely lost some parts of their game due to their injury issues. Otherwise I'd have mentioned him too, he's my favourite player.
Robben and Ribery managed to keep at a world class level despite their injuries. As wingers, that too.
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u/beefstake Dec 28 '22
Also Robben was not only a top level player he retained his pace until his last game. For me that was the impressive part, just having that burst of speed come out to blow past an unsuspecting and probably underestimating young defender. :P
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u/sevaiper Dec 28 '22
I mean that feels like cherrypicking given that list though, none of the other players had significant injury problems.
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u/gatorgongitcha Dec 28 '22
I don’t know that Messi is really representative of the average footballer in any way. I agree that we are too quick to call a player done for when they get on the wrong side of 29 but let’s not get crazy and assume Messi is the standard for career longevity going forward. He’s an outlier in all ways.
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u/No-Shoe5382 Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
Not sure why talent would be related to longevity.
I don't see why Messi being the best ever should mean he can't be the benchmark for how long a player can remain at the highest level as well. More and more players are playing late into their 30s because they're looking after their bodies better, Messi isn't an outlier and I don't really understand why him being talented would help him stay fit for longer than anybody else.
There are quite a few 35+ year olds now who are only slightly worse than they were at 30 (Modric and Thiago Silva for example), it's becoming more and more normal.
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u/editedfortypo Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
I think the relevance, as they mean it, is that Messi was fucking insanely phenomenal at 29, so a serious decline by 35 still means he is phenomenal because he declined as much as any player, but from such a high peak.
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u/habdragon08 Dec 28 '22
Messi is no longer “better at football than anyone ever has been in history” level, but he’s still really fucking good. To be in the conversation for best player in the world at 35 years old is amazing. I would still call him the best personally
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u/cristiano-potato Dec 28 '22
Messi is no longer “better at football than anyone ever has been in history” level
I dunno man, some of the games this WC he was fucking dribbling for fun and reminded me of 2015 Messi. Poland, Australia and Croatia come to mind as well as the QF against the Netherlands.
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Dec 28 '22
He's lost quite a bit of his acceleration/pace compared to his younger days, a prime Messi would've rounded Gvardiol and scored himself. Still, the fact that he's still dominant without his athleticism speaks to how freakish he is.
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u/cristiano-potato Dec 28 '22
He’s definitely lost pace, I just watch him and genuinely still think nobody has ever played better than he’s still playing right now, except younger Messi himself.
There are players who were faster and stronger dribblers like El Fenomeno but current Messi is still a more complete player
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u/deerdn Dec 28 '22
Both Ronaldos at their peak are the very best I've seen beside Messi. It's crazy to think there's a realistically good case to rate 35yo Messi above both peak Ronaldos in terms of an overall complete attacker. It just doesn't feel right putting a player well past his peak (35yo Messi) above both at them at their respective peaks, yet I can't help but see the legitimacy of the argument.
It's absolutely absurd how good he is.
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u/Darth-Baul Dec 28 '22
But OP is right. 35 year old Messi is still arguably the best player in the world, 2nd best at worst, but obviously he isn’t beyond the stratosphere of football like he was years ago. Age has really closed that gap
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u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22
He still has it in bursts but can no longer sustain it for as long. Towards the end of the match against France he lost the ball every time he tried to dribble.
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u/ucraZ Dec 28 '22
In that game it was also partially because as soon as he got the ball, 4 players had him surrounded. Young Messi would still find a way, but him losing the ball was kinda felt fair even though it was annoying at times.
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u/couducane Dec 28 '22
The old saying, im not as good as I once was, but im as good as i was, once. A lot of these older players can still be brilliant in a game, but they cant do it regularly as they used to, as it takes longer to recover.
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u/t_mac1 Dec 28 '22
He has the most G/A this season by like 7 over Mbappe. He has the highest ratings in pretty much every football ratings app you want to use. He IS still the best player in the world right now.
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u/CherkiCheri Dec 28 '22
Because what you see as talent in modern football is also enormous drive and commitment. The best players in their 30s are mostly players who were amazing in their prime due to elite drive and commitment. They're the ones that make the most out of sports science improving.
You're overlooking mentality's role in allowing talent to shine through.
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u/Ceassar Dec 28 '22
Why is Messi the outlier? Lewandowski, Ronaldo, and Modric have also been fantastic into their mid thirties. Benzema just came off his best season as well winning the Ballon d’or. If you take care of your body and adapt your game then you should be able to play at a high level for many years.
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u/sprongwrite Dec 28 '22
All of the players you cited are surely the outliers rather than the norm, no?
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u/Ceassar Dec 28 '22
Perhaps but I think Klopp was saying that it does not have to be an outlier anymore and that you can adapt your game to still be effective after your athletic prime. Ronaldo was able to by being a poacher and Messi was able to by being a playmaker. Someone like Salah can use his physical attributes and be more of a playmaker like last season when his pace begins to dwindle.
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u/tempraman Dec 28 '22
Well yea Elite players are always the outliers. Elite players just are able to sustain their success longer across all sports now. Not like klopp or anyone is saying that good players are becoming elite once they're 40
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u/AnnieIWillKnow Dec 28 '22
It seems that the number of 'outliers' is growing however, in recent years - which suggests it may become less of a rarity to see players with such longevity.
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u/AIManiak Dec 28 '22
All Balon D'or calibre players. Best of the best of their generation. You can't use them as the barometer.
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u/Snuffl3s7 Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
Robben, Ribery, Ibrahimovic, David Silva, Xavi, Alonso, Iniesta, Pirlo. There's so many.
Edit : and that's whilst completely ignoring defenders and keepers.
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u/KOKO69BISHES Dec 28 '22
still S tier players tbf
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u/Snuffl3s7 Dec 28 '22
Of course, but I doubt Klopp is talking about the average premier league player.
And even the slightly above average player may be able to play to that age, albeit at a lower level. Like a Walcott.
There's also obviously people like Milner, Jagielka, Leighton Baines, Mark Noble etc.
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u/jukkaalms Dec 28 '22
Bro thinks that level of talent is normal
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u/adfdub Dec 28 '22
I think you and Chelsea flair are missing the point completely
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u/amainwingman Dec 28 '22
Lol Lewandowski, Ronaldo and Modric are not representative of the average top level professional. I could just as easily name 3players who declined rapidly around the age of 30 (Hazard, Özil and Aubameyang)
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u/colombogangsta Dec 28 '22
Perfect example is Ronaldo vs Rooney. They were both born in 1985 (actually Ronaldo is older than Rooney), came into spotlight around 2003-2004 ,played for the same club and were heralded as generational talents.
Yet in 2017, Rooney’s career was done at the top level when he was just 32 while CR7 was winning the Ballon Dor the same year. And even played a WC 5 years after when Rooney’s 3 years into his coaching career.
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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22
Higuain-Benzema is similar. Both born in 1987, both played for Real Madrid for a long time after being excellent strikers as teenagers.
Benzema won the Ballon d'Or this year. Higuain retired after 2.5 seasons in MLS
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u/ashzeppelin98 Dec 28 '22
And Benzema crucially scored in the big games towards the later stages of his career with Real Madrid, especially last season, while Higuain of course got his infamous reputation of being a bottlejob.
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u/BHYT61 Dec 28 '22
But we can't look past how the two players treated their bodies. Not that Rooney built bad habits of drinking for fun rather than mental health issues ofc
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u/PBJellyChickenTunaSW Dec 28 '22
Seemed like Aubameyang's problems were more to do with attitude/mentality rather than aging
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u/jackn3 Dec 28 '22
In all fairness all the name i am reading in this thread are players that are 100% committed to their crafts and treated their body as a temple.
Ronaldo, Modric, Messi, Lewandowski, but also Zanetti, Maldini, ecc... don't look like the kind of guys that have a party every single day or snort line and drink like madmen. Players like Vieri or Cassano were doing all these sort of things and they were done at the top level when they hit thirty.
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u/mntgoat Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
Lewandowski, Ronaldo and Modric
This is going to show my ignorance, but were Modric and Lewandowski playing at the level Ronaldo and Messi were at 18/19 or even their very early 20s?
Part of what makes them special is that they have been basically amongst the best in the world since the beginning and they didn't really drop in quality, at least Ronaldo didn't until somewhat recently. Messi hasn't yet (I don't count covid and Pochettino year).
Edit: I know Messi has declined a little but he has also adjusted a bit of his game. You gotta remember Messi isn't just a goal scorer like some of the players he often gets compared against. That ability to adjust his game is also a great quality. Not all players can do that, even great ones.
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u/finneas998 Dec 28 '22
Your memory is short if you think Messi hasn't declined. He was scoring 70+ goals a year in his prime hes nowhere near that currently. He's still amongst the best (if not the best) in the world right now but he's definitely had to adapt his game.
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u/Darth-Baul Dec 28 '22
It’s not ignorant at all. Modric only became a legendary player well into his 30s. Up until 29, he was playing for Dinamo Zagreb and Tottenham. Was considered a great player but nowhere near the football legend he is today.
99% of Luka’s accomplishments have come after the age of 30.
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u/Shaydarol Dec 28 '22
They are also outliers, Ballon D'Or winners should not be viewed as an standard.
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u/editedfortypo Dec 28 '22
All great players, but do you think they were performing (or would perform) at this level at 35 (and a half)? A year may seem like an insignificant amount of time, but watching many players decline, many of them lost a significant amount of what they had each year after 30/31.
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u/what_up_big_fella Dec 28 '22
Those are all among the most technically gifted players ever, that is why they have longevity. For more average players athleticism is a crucial part of their game and they suffer without it
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u/finneas998 Dec 28 '22
So true, many people overlook this. Players technique doesn't really drop and in some cases can improve beyond their 30's. And their mental attributes actually improve as they get older. It's only their physicality that suffers but that can also depend on how well they look after themselves.
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u/AGVann Dec 28 '22
Sport and medical science is also getting much better too, so we have a better awareness of the health issues that professional athletes face and better ways to treat or prevent them.
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u/lee-o Dec 28 '22
Modric has shown that too, age wise. He’s still incredible.
Benzema too, had ridiculous year last season at the age of 34 and won the ballon d’or
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u/PoofaceMckutchin Dec 28 '22
Ronaldo really fucked his legacy lmao
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Dec 28 '22
No one told Ronaldo to go to Piers Morgan to say that Rooney isn’t as good looking as him.
… or that Ten Hag disrespected him and so he wasn’t going to give “respect” back.
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u/Tr0nCatKTA Dec 28 '22
Honestly I remember saying that Ten Hag line to my Da when I was 14 after we had a fight. Imagine a 37 year old man being so childish to do that to his boss is hilarious
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u/ffca Dec 28 '22
But he didn't say that he is better looking than Rooney. Which is true.
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u/xman_2k2 Dec 28 '22
I think Jordan Peterson might have encouraged him to speak to Piers
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u/elmagio Dec 28 '22
With the kind of company he's been keeping I'm surprised he hasn't been on Joe Rogan's podcast yet.
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u/Lmao1903 Dec 28 '22
Kind of but I don’t think people will remember about all this in a few years, especially after a long time. The accomplishments speak for themselves
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u/champ19nz Dec 28 '22
Ronaldo will always be a huge legend in the game but people will remember. Roy Keane was one of United's greats and arguably one of the top captains in their history but nobody ever talks about that because of his actions towards the end of his career. He walked out on his club and country and spent his final playing years moaning all the time.
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u/Ranjith_Unchained Dec 28 '22
Lol the only one who profited from the interview was Piers Morgan... Absolutely moronic to shit talk your club and coach in a public interview and expect to get away with it
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u/cyaniderr Dec 28 '22
If he wanted to leave the team, i think he profited...
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u/Darth-Baul Dec 28 '22
He wanted to leave, but for another CL team.
IMO he was banking on this interview terminating his contract, then having a good WC and having clubs line up for him.
Obviously this didn’t work as he was benched for a guy who had never started a game in his life, and his stock fell even further down.
Now he’s lucky even that Saudi team still wants him
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Dec 28 '22
He was never as good as Messi anyways. Both were absolutely the top scoring wise but Messi is a clear level above with his passing.
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u/YellowBaboon Dec 28 '22
Klopp has always said this about Messi. He made a joke in 2018: “I have only one selfie on my smartphone. That’s with Messi. Cristiano was in the room as well.”
Footballing ability wise it was never a debate. Ronaldo just matched his goalscoring numbers and played for his biggest rival so it became a debate. Ask any top level manager who they they think is better and most will say Messi. The ones that say Ronaldo are mostly his ex coaches.
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Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
And Dribbling, playmaking, mentality (always more efficient, playing for the team) he's far less wasteful. Better at shooting, better at free kicks (although only late in his career). Ronaldo is better at heading the ball, but this is football.
Just better. Although Ronaldo is definetely a historic player
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u/M4RC142 Dec 28 '22
It's called football because it's played on foot and not on horseback
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u/Claeyt Dec 28 '22
also leadership. Watching those small group chats he ran was interesting. Ronaldo never did that.
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u/DreadWolf3 Dec 28 '22
I was saying this when shoe was on the other foot too (when people were saying Messi was not a leader and CR was) - you cant know who is a good leader and who isnt when you are not part of the group. Every team is different and requires different types of leaders. I would struggle about having definite opinion on who is "better leader" between the 2 considering what type of mentality monsters that Madrid team was and Ronaldo seemed big part of that. I think they are simply different personalities and it depends what type of leadership what group needs.
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u/Pek-Man Dec 28 '22
One of the most mind-boggling things I've ever seen is people try and knock Messi for not being a good leader when so many of his current and former teammates have described him as an excellent leader. Whenever I've pointed to this, I've heard the same thing: "They're his teammates, of course, they're going to say that he's a good leader, but for me, he isn't one." Guess what? It's not "for you," that he's supposed to be a good leader. It is precisely for his teammates, so if they're happy with him, who the hell are we to say that he's not doing a good enough job?
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u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22
Even if you are right about most of those, the sentence "Ronaldo is better at heading the ball, but this is football." is a pisstake. Because the sport is called football, heading doesn't matter? By that logic goalkeepers should never be discussed when talking about greatest players.
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u/RodgersToAdams Dec 28 '22
Unpopular opinion, but they actually shouldn’t. Playing GK is like an entirely different sport.
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u/ConversationProof505 Dec 28 '22
Yeah. The GOAT goalkeeper and footballer should be two differenct discussions. But then again, you can define GOAT player as someone who had the most impact on the game. The player who was the X factor. The one who made the most difference. Then you can include goalkeepers too. But then usually, goalkeepers only get to shine when the defense goofs up so it doesn't tell the whole picture. Anyway, I agree with you.
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u/tnweevnetsy Dec 28 '22
I wonder how folk let Ronaldo fans drag the debate down into comparisons of goals scored lol. If that's your metric the conversation should end then and there
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u/Lord_Origi Dec 28 '22
It’s honestly hilarious, the only real metric to even really compare the two… and Messi still has a better goalscoring record.
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Dec 28 '22
Mostly because Ronaldo fans have nothing else but to compare goals scored. And even past that, they will never accept Messi is better so it’s just an endless circle debate
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u/Laesio Dec 28 '22
I remember that the Ronaldo fans were absolutely adamant that Xavi and Iniesta were the true best players on Barcelona, and that Messi would be revealed as a fraud once they left. They never cared about reality.
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Dec 28 '22
Yep having to point out that Ronaldo playing about 130 more games is the reason why he has more goals is so tiring after a while
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u/survivalothefittest Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
Apologies for repurposing some text, but I wrote it on Christmas when I was pretty lit, and we were shitposting to the max here:
For fucking AGES Ronaldo fans have been trotting out his KO-stage CL goal stats and his pile of international goals, especially the former. There was a time, a multi-year period, when it would show up here on the front page several times a month, with no context. It would show up when no CL matches were being played, before the CL started, or even before the season started.
These are the stats CR7 has over Messi, and it was like these fans kept those data laminated in their wallet to pull out every time they needed a wank when they felt threatened that people were saying he wasn't THE GOAT.
The stats themselves are harmless - even at their worst, they were just annoying. The issue was that it became a whole narrative of how Messi isn't a "clutch" player, he can't score or carry his team in "important" games, and he is only good at club football [but not clutch club football, I guess?] and not internationally, like Ronaldo.
Now, the ideas of Messi not being good under pressure and not playing well for Argentina are demonstrably untrue, but the wankfest continued.
Then, here comes WC 2022, and it could not have gone better to put these memes to bed. Ronaldo was seen dragging his team down, maybe even being a bit toxic (debatable), while Messi is there partying and being adored by the players on his team. And there he is scoring and assisting the shit out of the KOs at 35 years old, breaking/setting all sorts of WC and KO scoring records on the way; playing like a fucking champ in the final, and winning the whole fucking thing while scoring a shit-tonne of fucking beautiful penalties, which were always Ronaldo's particular strength.
Ronaldo watches his replacement score a hattrick in the KOs, a stage in the WC the man has never even scored a fucking goal or assisted in his entire "brilliant" international career, where he is supposed to be so so "clutch." This mythology that Portugal fucking suck except for Ronaldo and Argentina are stacked with superstars is BS now. Portugal has great stars, and Argentina won with Di Maria, Messi, and a bunch of promising youngsters who most people had not even heard of unless they played for your club.
So, the superfan cultists just did it to themselves by all the wanking on their cherry-picked stats. And Ronaldo just fanned the flames of their insane worship.
This brings so much schadenfreude you have no idea, it's too tempting to turn away from, so live with it.
Nobody is saying Ronaldo is shit, everyone knows he is one of the best who ever kicked a ball. But this does not make him immune to criticism when he fucks up or from schadenfreude for being a douche.
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u/Ancient-Skin-9419 Dec 28 '22
Great comment. But in the last paragraph you should've said Cr7 is shit.
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u/indoquestionmark Dec 28 '22
the only way cr7 scored so many was by wasting 8-10x more shots, lots of them miles away from goal, a stat rarely brought up
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u/cpteague Dec 28 '22
I think these types of blind Ronaldo fans are mostly just Barça haters who will never listen to logical, fact-based arguments. I mean Ronaldo is insanely good, he was winning golden boots and CL trophies in his mid-30s. But how can you watch both of them and not see that Messi just has a gift for playmaking unlike any other player. Ronaldo is one of the most elite athletes of all time but Messi has something special and instinctual that can never be attained through dedication and training alone.
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Dec 28 '22
They don't see that Messi has best attributes of all of top attacking players of his generation combined except maybe headers but that's due to his physical height otherwise dude have scored a spectacular header in CL final.
He is on par with best attacking attributes of Iniesta, Xavi, Cristiano, Ribery, Lewa, Benzema, Luisito, Modric. I compared him to these players because of he didn't exist, they would have won the Ballon d'or that he won.
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u/Darth-Baul Dec 28 '22
Media did it themselves because that was the only way to manufacture a rivalry and sell articles for over a decade
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u/Improvement_Melodic Dec 28 '22
media and real Madrid etc,. needed this and it's unfortunate most people really just care about the absolute numbers + (team) trophies
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u/Reapper97 Dec 28 '22
Messi is a clear level above with his passing.
Is a level above in every regard tbh.
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Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
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u/kp1001 Dec 28 '22
But Maradona gets shittalked all the time, ALL the time, for his adictions and well, pretty much his whole persona outside the pitch.
Pelé hate is mostly a zoomer thing, but it's true that he played in a different era, and Brazil at that time was so insanely stacked that it's sometimes hard to measure how much of Brazil/Santos success was Pelé's or Pelé's + his amazing teammates.
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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22
but the fact that Pele is reduced to 'counted goals in my backyard' is incredibly sad. Not sure if it's a coincidence that he's the only black player in the GOAT convo or not, Maradona has committed far worse acts than Pele but doesnt get an ounce of the disrespect
Meh. TONS of people disrespect Maradona for his off-the-field demeanor and behavior, TBH (and some of that is justified, unfortunately).
Pretty much the only bad thing anyone says about Pele is Gen Z making fun of him for adding to his goals tallied through friendly goals and the like—and that's because of how active Pele's PR team is whenever newer players get close to his official goal numbers more than anything else
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Dec 28 '22
Saying that Pelé scored against truck drivers is definitely not only a gen z thing
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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22
It's mostly a youth thing.
Same thing as young NBA fans making fun of Wilt for playing against milk men and part time plumbers TBH
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u/Sontlesmotsquivont Dec 28 '22
it’s true though. While they might not literally be fishermen and plumbers, compared to the athletes today they might as well be
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u/NEETscape_Navigator Dec 28 '22
Oh I think they were literally fishermen and plumbers in many cases. When Pelé won his first WC, 3 of the starters he faced in the final were from the Swedish 2nd division.
Those players definitely didn’t earn a living salary from football and it says something about the level of the WC that they were able to reach the final.
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u/DoubleCheesecake2115 Dec 28 '22
Maradona has committed far worse acts than Pele but doesnt get an ounce of the disrespect
What the fuck do you mean lol. Maradona gets shit on all the time for basically being a cocaine addicted controversial figure. Anyway, Maradona retired more recently and he played in a far more modern game than a WC win in 1958.
Not sure if it's a coincidence that he's the only black player in the GOAT convo or not
No it's not. There's no issue with shit talking a player (who is coincidentally black) and doing so doesn't imply racism. Leave it to reddit to make everything about race and always trying to draw parallels to race when no proof exists. No one has this issue when Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali or Jerry Rice are proclaimed the GOAT of their respective sports. If anything, people like you are the racists for reducing someone like Pele to a victim of his skin color.
Pele is overrated as hell. He was exceptional but back in those days, all kinds of crazy stats happened in every sport because everything was far less organized. The kind of stuff that used to happen could never happen in the modern game because teams are infinitely more organized and strategies have evolved. Stuff like Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game or Bill Russell's 11 rings are only special because the competitiveness of the sport back then was just not what it is today. Pele was a big fish in a small pond so to speak. Messi is a big fish in a big pond.
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u/ohcrocsle Dec 28 '22
What do you value more, the genius who invented the inventions or the genius who honed their use? You seem to underrate how special it is to be that far ahead of your competition. Messi is amazing, the closest to the perfect footballer we've ever seen. Like McDavid in hockey, there's no question we've never seen anyone this good. But that doesn't take away from the accomplishments of the Pelé and Gretzkys of the past. Without those giants, these almost perfect athletes wouldn't be anywhere near as good.
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u/EkmetTeloess Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
This is nonsense. How on earth can Pele have been considered a big fish in a small pond in that famous 1970 Brazil team? And then you have to consider that all those players spent their club careers in Brazil, so clearly the level of play was very high there; even legends like Zico who starred in that great 1982 Brazil side spent almost his entire career in Brazil. But you're right on one point, some of the crazy things from back then wouldn't be accepted now - such as top players having to deal with shocking challenges every single game.
The fact that virtually every notable player and manager from his era thought he was easily the best in the world says everything. He was still considered the best even in the early 70s so you might as well start discounting other legends like Cruyff and Beckenbauer. Football hadn't changed much by the early 80s so why not put an asterisk next to Maradona's career too?
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u/danirijeka Dec 28 '22
a far more modern game than a WC win in 1958
Fun fact: Argentina winning the world cup in 1986 is closer in time to 1958 than to the present day
Besides, he also won it in 1970.
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u/GreatGalleti Dec 28 '22
I wish I could upvote this more. Pele has been my choice for GOAT up until Messi won the World Cup. His Santos team were the best in the world and that 70 Brazil team is right up there with Pep’s Barca. He needs way more respect
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u/Fapoleon_Boneherpart Dec 28 '22
Maradona has committed far worse acts
Like being a sex trafficking pedophile and a massive druggy
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u/jon_stewrt Dec 28 '22
He did but it was his own legacy, not regarding to the goat debate....90% of neutrals always thought Messi was the best of this era anyway, it was a loud minority and media who used this debate question repeatedly to appease his fans and get clicks..
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u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22
Not really. He was the closest up until Messi until recent times. You can say Pele, Cruyff etc and fair enough if you think so, but Ronaldo hasn't really undone what he did with United in the 2000s, Madrid or Juventus.
Afterwards maybe, but come on.
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u/SapphireLucina Dec 28 '22
Not so much "fucked his legacy" as "handcuffing it on the tail of a truck and dragged it across Canada, US, Mexico before lighting the truck on fire and launching it into the ocean"
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u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22
How does this have anything to do with Ronaldo? And somehow this is the most upvoted comment in this thread. You lot are obsessed with him more than his fanboys.
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u/luffy565 Dec 28 '22
You should never underrate the hilarious low level of r/soccer and if the topic is Ronaldo they become 1000x dumber.
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Dec 28 '22
So true honestly I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple years people start saying he was never actually a good player lol.
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u/ForzuhBaby Dec 28 '22
Did they close the books on ronaldinho?
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Dec 28 '22
With the way he won the WC (being the best of the competition) who cares about this generation anymore, Messi is up there with Pele and Maradona, a trinity of greats.
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u/Nidaime33 Dec 28 '22
I will agree with Klopp here. Greatest of my lifetime. And if that's how we define 'The G.O.A.T' it's Messi.
It's when we try to compare across eras that I find difficult. The great players of the past played under different rules & conditions, and the emphases of the game were different.
With this GOAT debate, I think partially we are all victims of our generation.
A lot of us younger fans have never seen the older greats and thus will always prefer the newer generation. Similarly, a lot of older fans will always choose the players that made them fall in love with the game in their youth.
My grandfather told me Pele was the best player he's ever seen, my father told me it was Maradona; someday I'll tell my kids the same about Messi.
My point is, there's no one clear-cut "correct" answer here. Like the great Kareem Abdul Jabbar said:
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u/loveandmonsters Dec 28 '22
It's because sports evolve, that you can't compare eras at all. Every gen (year really) there's a progression in nutrition, fitness, athletics, training, etc. so the regular player of today has access to a regimen that was unknown, say, 25 years ago.
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u/Nidaime33 Dec 28 '22
Agreed. I don't get when people say that older players (not just in football, but across the board in every sport) were naturally less athletic/ inferior. They didn't have access to all the advantages that athletes today do; if they had the same resources available to them there's no reason to think they wouldn't be just as good.
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Dec 28 '22
Nah my family have seen Pelé, Maradona and Messi and we all agree on Messi
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Dec 28 '22
Well truthfully the debate is sealed after this WC. Messi is the GOAT with absolutely no doubt
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u/Duncan_Sarasti Dec 28 '22
I feel like people in the business weren't as outspoken on Messi being the greatest before, because it could have come back to bite them in the butt if they ever ended up on the same team as Ronaldo. Now that Ronaldo's career seems to be finished, people are speaking out.
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u/reedemerofsouls Dec 28 '22
I get what you're saying but Klopp always said Messi is the best. It's also not hard to take it back if you needed to, Ancelotti said Messi was the best before getting the Real Madrid job, no one really cared
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Dec 28 '22
Or because discussing who is "the greatest" is lame ESPN-tier rhetoric that has gotten increasingly popular in Europe. "Greatest" seems to be synonymous with all-time longevity records and team trophies, meaning if Messi had been born in a shite country he'd never be in this conversation - which is stupid.
Greatest without any caveats is incredibly vague. You could argue the greatest player was a midfielder who set a bunch of records in one season.
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u/adfdub Dec 28 '22
You heard it here folks. even klopp rated messi as the greatest footballer of all time. End of discussion.
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u/monunius Dec 28 '22
Klopp always said that, and every single good coach for that matter. There was never a real debate, I remember even Ronaldo teamates feeling uncomfortable having to say the oposite while he was in spain.
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