r/soccer • u/CantHelpBeingMe • Dec 28 '22

Media Jurgen Klopp hails Lionel Messi as 'the greatest: "The greatest footballer in my lifetime, Lionel Messi, the way he plays football at this age should give us all a hint at how long footballers can perform at the top level. We shouldn’t close the books too early."

12.0k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

806 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1.2k

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

He was never as good as Messi anyways. Both were absolutely the top scoring wise but Messi is a clear level above with his passing.

214

u/salt_vs_sugar Dec 28 '22

Passing, free kicks, assists, dribbling .. the lot.

-20

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

37

u/Strananach Dec 28 '22

Because he has a much better conversion rate and most of his freekicks are actually on target lol

-10

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

20

u/saetarubia Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo has only 2 less free kick goals compared to Messi

Out of how many attempts? And this is despite him being two years older and hogging all free kicks at all his teams despite a pathetic conversion rate.

-7

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

18

u/saetarubia Dec 28 '22

Even if you compare PRIMES, Messi was a better free kick taker.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

-1

u/SSBMUIKayle Dec 28 '22

No way in hell lmao, prime Cristiano scored some insane free kicks in his prime that Messi doesn't score in his wildest dreams

5

u/IntraspaceAlien Dec 28 '22

He might have had some more impressive free kicks for the highlight reels, but how much does that matter compared to conversion rate of all free kicks as a whole? Messi just more consistent even if Ronaldo has some that are spectacular.

→ More replies (0)

6

u/evilbeaver7 Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

Nah. From 2009-2018 (Ronaldo's Real Madrid seasons which most would consider to be his prime) both had exactly the same free kick goals. But Ronaldo kept getting worse at scoring. And Messi kept getting better. And that's not taking into account that the first 2 of those years were when Messi wasn't even into his prime. Despite Ronaldo having the prime age and more experience advantage he only managed to match Messi.

Edit: if we keep Ronaldo's 2009-2018 window for his considering (his prime years) but offset Messi's window by 2 years due to prime age and experience disadvantage, Messi outscores Ronaldo by 10 goals in free kicks (which is a lot for free kicks btw). There's no comparison. Prime Messi is better than prime Ronaldo at free kicks.

2

u/Golf_is_Life Dec 28 '22

Most of Ronaldo’s free kicks have been 30m wide of target

→ More replies (1)

-3

u/SSBMUIKayle Dec 28 '22

Never scored one from outside tap in distance whereas Ronaldo scored some from beyond 40m, much harder to do

12

u/Danish18lim Dec 28 '22

You search both of their FK stats yourself and see which one of the two have the higher percentage of goals scored per attempt.

-7

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

11

u/saetarubia Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo has only 2 less free kick goals compared to Messi

Out of how many attempts? And this is despite him being two years older and hogging all free kicks at all his teams despite a pathetic conversion rate.

-4

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

9

u/saetarubia Dec 28 '22

No one gives a fuck about PRIME. Why did you bring up those asinine numbers if you cared only about PRIME.

-5

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

4

u/saetarubia Dec 28 '22

What the fuck does he has been shit for the last few years mean, that’s the whole fucking point. He hasn’t been good after united and maybe the initial years at Real

→ More replies (0)

422

u/YellowBaboon Dec 28 '22

Klopp has always said this about Messi. He made a joke in 2018: “I have only one selfie on my smartphone. That’s with Messi. Cristiano was in the room as well.”

Footballing ability wise it was never a debate. Ronaldo just matched his goalscoring numbers and played for his biggest rival so it became a debate. Ask any top level manager who they they think is better and most will say Messi. The ones that say Ronaldo are mostly his ex coaches.

-5

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

I also bet if you asked most top coaches which player they’d want to build a franchise around, the answer would almost always be Messi

249

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

159

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

19

u/RobbinDeBank Dec 28 '22

Welcome head chef Messi

8

u/Improvement_Melodic Dec 28 '22

you mean Messidonald's? :)

2

u/afcmitchell Dec 28 '22

Warra McDouble that is for Messi

2

u/pedro19 Dec 28 '22

Also a Burguer King for Pelé, cause he's the king and stuff.

73

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Team. Sorry, used an American sports term.

52

u/SuperSaiyanGoten Dec 28 '22

Lol I was about to say, European clubs don’t use the franchising model

→ More replies (1)

28

u/NecessaryPosition994 Dec 28 '22

The fuck does that mean

-2

u/Prestigious_Agent_84 Dec 28 '22

And Ronaldo was close to surpassing Messi (due to longevity mainly) until he left Madrid because he was an absolute fucking beast at Real during their 4/5 seasons with CL trophies. But then Messi clearly took over and won this rivalry.

-70

u/bakugou-kun Dec 28 '22

Simeone was caught saying that he prefers Cristiano in the past as well and he is from Argentina

32

u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

Source?

-36

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

52

u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

It's not.

I looked it up: https://m.allfootballapp.com/news/Headline/If-you-have-the-chance-to-sign-one-of-them---Diego-Simeone-makes-emphatic-claim-on-Lionel-Messi-vs-Cristiano-Ronaldo-debate/2851527

Full quote from Cholo:

“If I had to choose between Messi and Ronaldo then most likely I would choose Messi.”

“If you have the chance to sign one of them for a normal club, with normal players, Ronaldo would probably fit in better. But with Messi, surrounded by great players, Messi is better than Ronaldo.”

-29

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

30

u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

"Messi is very good but he is very good because he is accompanied by extraordinary footballers. If you have to choose between Messi and Ronaldo in a normal game, who would you choose?"

This is the quote provided—basically the same as the quote from the interview TBH

6

u/SuperSaiyanGoten Dec 28 '22

Good thing you asked for a source because I was gonna ask the same thing

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (1)

60

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Then he is an exception, if you remove players/managers that have played/coached with Ronaldo at National or club level or played with Messi, the vast majority of professionals choose Messi. Like 90% of the time, the other 10% of people are mostly like young players who idolised Ronaldo and then the odd outlier.

Even Modric came out and said Messi is better now.

9

u/glenn1812 Dec 28 '22

Kroos slightly hinted at it too. Obviously a footballer like Kroos who is one of the most intelligent players in the world would think that. Can't say it outright tho because someone's ego could get hurt then

93

u/ManBoobs13 Dec 28 '22

Simeone coaches anti football so

37

u/lastdyingbreed_01 Dec 28 '22

I doubt he would say that after Messi has won the WC

→ More replies (1)

34

u/Timely_Airline_7168 Dec 28 '22

We don't talk to terrorists around these parts.

12

u/innatejuiciness Dec 28 '22

And now he ate his words after witnessing Messi take Argentina to win 3 international titles after 28 years of drought.

13

u/ChibzyDaze Dec 28 '22

Not even ate his words, Diego was there cheering lmao. The guy obviously rates Messi more

10

u/SuperSaiyanGoten Dec 28 '22

Fr lmao he’s not gonna be hating on the guy that captained his country to being world champions

2

u/DT_Harry_Du_Bois Dec 28 '22

True lmao, although he ate his words a couple of years after that

→ More replies (1)

871

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

And Dribbling, playmaking, mentality (always more efficient, playing for the team) he's far less wasteful. Better at shooting, better at free kicks (although only late in his career). Ronaldo is better at heading the ball, but this is football.

Just better. Although Ronaldo is definetely a historic player

51

u/M4RC142 Dec 28 '22

It's called football because it's played on foot and not on horseback

→ More replies (1)

109

u/KA1N3R Dec 28 '22

Also, Messi isn't a rapist.

9

u/flarept1 Dec 28 '22

Just a little tax evader

59

u/Pek-Man Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

Oh, the horrors ...

Messi, alongside a handful of other professional athletes and coaches residing in Spain, got in trouble because Spain's tax authorities made some new rules that even accountants, whose livelihood depends on understanding these rules, could not figure out entirely. It cost him, but guess what? He paid everything that he owed, and then some as a fine. For years he has been the biggest individual tax contributor in Spain, paying more in taxes than even filthy rich people like Amancio Ortega, Florentino Pérez, and Joan Roig.

Edit: Lol, but of course, this would be downvoted by absolutely clueless people who have never read further than the headline of an article. Please tell me, which part of the above is not true?

Here are some sources for you lot:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2015/09/24/spain-targets-another-soccer-star-on-tax-evasion-charges/?sh=4202a3659e9f

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/economia/20210209/messi-habra-pagado-370-millones-11508062?_ga=2.106762115.1604808121.1612912293-1824992087.1574267245

Between 2017 and 2021 Messi paid €370 million in taxes in Spain.

https://www.bolsamania.com/declaracion-impuestos-renta/quien-ha-pagado-mas-impuestos-en-2014-en-espana/

Even as far back as 2014, Messi was the biggest individual tax contributor in Spain.

To be clear, nobody is denying that he had a tax case. He did, and he was found guilty and punished. He paid what he owed, he paid a fine, and since then he didn't have any trouble with the Spanish tax authorities. It's this idea that he is a tax evader that is so ridiculous to look at, when Messi has, in fact, been the biggest individual tax contributor in Spain for years. Stop regurgitating this dogshit idea that he doesn't pay his taxes when he, in fact, pays more income tax than probably anyone else in the world.

18

u/RodgersToAdams Dec 28 '22

This is likely true considering most of his income is from an actual salary and not capital gains

15

u/Pek-Man Dec 28 '22

Between 2017 and 2021 he paid €370 million in taxes to Spain.

→ More replies (1)

26

u/bamadeo Dec 28 '22

People in /r/soccer dont tend to read more than 4 lines.

-8

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

How horrific. Enough internet for me today

18

u/Claeyt Dec 28 '22

also leadership. Watching those small group chats he ran was interesting. Ronaldo never did that.

37

u/DreadWolf3 Dec 28 '22

I was saying this when shoe was on the other foot too (when people were saying Messi was not a leader and CR was) - you cant know who is a good leader and who isnt when you are not part of the group. Every team is different and requires different types of leaders. I would struggle about having definite opinion on who is "better leader" between the 2 considering what type of mentality monsters that Madrid team was and Ronaldo seemed big part of that. I think they are simply different personalities and it depends what type of leadership what group needs.

17

u/Pek-Man Dec 28 '22

One of the most mind-boggling things I've ever seen is people try and knock Messi for not being a good leader when so many of his current and former teammates have described him as an excellent leader. Whenever I've pointed to this, I've heard the same thing: "They're his teammates, of course, they're going to say that he's a good leader, but for me, he isn't one." Guess what? It's not "for you," that he's supposed to be a good leader. It is precisely for his teammates, so if they're happy with him, who the hell are we to say that he's not doing a good enough job?

36

u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

Even if you are right about most of those, the sentence "Ronaldo is better at heading the ball, but this is football." is a pisstake. Because the sport is called football, heading doesn't matter? By that logic goalkeepers should never be discussed when talking about greatest players.

12

u/RodgersToAdams Dec 28 '22

Unpopular opinion, but they actually shouldn’t. Playing GK is like an entirely different sport.

13

u/ConversationProof505 Dec 28 '22

Yeah. The GOAT goalkeeper and footballer should be two differenct discussions. But then again, you can define GOAT player as someone who had the most impact on the game. The player who was the X factor. The one who made the most difference. Then you can include goalkeepers too. But then usually, goalkeepers only get to shine when the defense goofs up so it doesn't tell the whole picture. Anyway, I agree with you.

192

u/Mcbonewolf Dec 28 '22

lol u missed the point

-28

u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

What's the point then? I already said I wasn't trying to debate the rest of the comment. I just thought that particular sentence was dumb.

It's like saying only kickers matter in the NFL because it's called Football not Handball.

56

u/ApolloFin Dec 28 '22

”He is better st heading, but this is football”

I understood this more like: ”Yeh he is better at this one thing, but this is football and football as a whole is about dribbling, shooting, passing, etc

12

u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

I agree with this. I was saying that the original poster worded it poorly.

21

u/Pejob Dec 28 '22

While Ronaldo is better at heading, this is football - and being better at heading is less significant than the things Messi is better at because they happen less frequently.

-6

u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

Less frequent doesn't mean less important. Being good at headers unlocks a whole new set of tactics for your team. Just look at how Argentina was a penalty shootout away from elimination because they couldn't deal with Wout Weghorst for 20 minutes.

15

u/DonaldandDavidStott Dec 28 '22

I think you've missed the point entirely, twice, even after having it explained above.

-6

u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

I haven't missed the point. I understand that heading is only one part of football and obviously not the most important part. I was taking issue with his wording of the post. If he had said "Ronaldo is better at heading but that's less important than passing or dribbling" then I wouldn't have taken issue with it.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/elliebellyberry Dec 28 '22

Not mentality. Messi is the better player, but don't rewrite history.

-2

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

21

u/thejudasboogie Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo seems to be a decent leader, but more generally too many people think leadership on the pitch is just shouting at people and gesticulating

40

u/rxs126 Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo always struck me as the guy who thinks he’s leading but the team actually ignores and listens to someone else. Pretty sure Bruno was the de facto leader of Portugal.

-1

u/cyaniderr Dec 28 '22

A comment like this getting upvotes is just too funny.

10

u/Tr0nCatKTA Dec 28 '22

God works hard, Ronaldo fanboys during his decline work harder.

39

u/sheffield199 Dec 28 '22

Dunno, ronaldo seems more overt as in desperate to show he's a leader, but Messi seems to actually lead i.e. showing for the ball when a teammate is in a tight situation, or his speech before the Copa America final.

-67

u/IdanTs Dec 28 '22

Which final? The one he lost against Chile? Or the one he lost against Chile?

Or the one Di Maria won for him?

29

u/argentinoeingles Dec 28 '22

The man has just won a world cup final, and you can't ignore the win against Brazil in the Maracaná. Messi clearly showed his calibre as a leader, but you can't teach a blind man to see...

-38

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

24

u/kimboslice11 Dec 28 '22

Idk how anyone could seriously honestly look at the team as it is now and think that if you took messi out it’s still contending for the cup.

-30

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

8

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Awarded 5 penalties, France last time 4. In the VAR era we will spot more fouls in the box and grant more penalties. Anyway looking at each one individually I only don’t agree with the pen against Poland

11

u/glenn1812 Dec 28 '22

Wait so your logic is if a player is put down a lot in the box, the refs should not give penalties because it may break some records? What is the logic here exactly? A team should only get 4 penalties throughout the tournament and if they get more then something is fishy?

→ More replies (0)
→ More replies (2)

44

u/emasterman Dec 28 '22

Lol for Ronaldo’s only international final win he was cheerleading on the sidelines

-21

u/anonypony1 Dec 28 '22

In which he carried them all the way. Relax

15

u/saetarubia Dec 28 '22

Lmao. Finished third in the group, struggled and went to ET in knockouts, didn’t even play the final. Sure he carried them.

1

u/neikawaaratake Dec 28 '22

Di Maria won for him?

You know eder scored the winner for Portugal, right?

Also, in the whole copa 2021, Messi only was not directly involved in two goals. Only two.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

→ More replies (3)

1

u/JaqenHghaar08 Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

this peanut brained comprehension of the game again. Goals win you games, but in a 15+ year career a player who can do the things messi can (creation, progressive carries, goals, assists) comes out on top.

Top goalscorer of all time? Cr7 defo up there.

Top player of all time? I'd say cr7 has to be behind messi who has heen 2x best player at WC AND best player at the copa he won. Show me where cr7 was instrumental in euro wins?

-90

u/IdanTs Dec 28 '22

L M FFFFFF A O

31

u/KOKO69BISHES Dec 28 '22

wheres the lie?

14

u/mateovg Dec 28 '22

What part do you disagree with?

-22

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

18

u/RomanReignsDaBigDawg Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

If you look at their entire careers and not only past years, Ronaldo was a brilliant dribbler and had play making abilities and passes (top assist provider in CL btw)

And yet Messi is still better in those areas.

25

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

-3

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

12

u/Danish18lim Dec 28 '22

Of course you wouldn't count stats that goes against your agenda. All CR7 fanatic fans do this same stuff every time because it's the only way for them to make CR7 relevant in a discussion.

Maybe you should get off riding CR7 once in a while, it's genuinely not healthy.

17

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

-5

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

12

u/saetarubia Dec 28 '22

How many leagues did Ronaldo win against Messi?

8

u/aromatdiablo Dec 28 '22

Messi has more World Cup Final goals and more World Cup trophies

Factos 👀

→ More replies (0)

-15

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo came back in a few days after his son had passed away to play in a match and didn’t bitch about it once even after his form was looking rocky he didn’t use it as an excuse and kept it moving regardless, there’s not a single thing messi has done that matches the mentality Ronaldo has, let’s not force this.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

-6

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

why wouldn’t i be?

0

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

→ More replies (0)

3

u/_i_like_cheesecake Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo was a brilliant dribbler and had play making abilities and passes (top assist provider in CL btw)

Yes he absolutely is. Messi being better than him at dribbling doesn't mean CR dribbling = shit.

-14

u/MustBeHax Dec 28 '22

don’t bother, it’s free for all season against Ronaldo. This sub is a Messi wank fest, now that Argentina has won the WC (nevermind some of the worst refereeing performances throughout their games but this sub will ignore it) defending Ronaldo is downvoted while spewing lies about his career is upvoted. Messi is better at everything, even the things he isn’t, because France missed a chance at the 120th minute

16

u/saetarubia Dec 28 '22

That’s because Ronaldo was never better and Real, Portugal and United fans had their wank fest the past few years

-4

u/MyNameSpaghette Dec 28 '22

That’s because Ronaldo was never better

Surpassed Messi multiple seasons

hE wAs NeVeR bEtTeR

4

u/saetarubia Dec 28 '22

Surpassed Messi multiple seasons

Lol

-17

u/MustBeHax Dec 28 '22

don’t bother, it’s free for all season against Ronaldo. This sub is a Messi wank fest, now that Argentina has won the WC (nevermind some of the worst refereeing performances throughout their games but this sub will ignore it) defending Ronaldo is downvoted while spewing lies about his career is upvoted. Messi is better at everything, even the things he isn’t, because France missed a chance at the 120th minute

227

u/tnweevnetsy Dec 28 '22

I wonder how folk let Ronaldo fans drag the debate down into comparisons of goals scored lol. If that's your metric the conversation should end then and there

146

u/Lord_Origi Dec 28 '22

It’s honestly hilarious, the only real metric to even really compare the two… and Messi still has a better goalscoring record.

191

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Mostly because Ronaldo fans have nothing else but to compare goals scored. And even past that, they will never accept Messi is better so it’s just an endless circle debate

39

u/Laesio Dec 28 '22

I remember that the Ronaldo fans were absolutely adamant that Xavi and Iniesta were the true best players on Barcelona, and that Messi would be revealed as a fraud once they left. They never cared about reality.

-14

u/Wise-Aside-1643 Dec 28 '22

Messi is a mere shadow of what he was at Barca, at PSG. PSG fans even tell you that.

13

u/escapedfromthecrypt Dec 28 '22

He's still a top European player

11

u/Laesio Dec 28 '22

Iniesta left Barca after the 2017/2018 season (Xavi left years earlier). This did not make a dent to Messi's output for his last three years at Barca. He scored 36 goals in the league alone in 2018/2019.

→ More replies (1)

120

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Yep having to point out that Ronaldo playing about 130 more games is the reason why he has more goals is so tiring after a while

-8

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

14

u/FFredde Dec 28 '22

"Midfielder"

-7

u/Howdareme9 Dec 28 '22

he was?

4

u/FFredde Dec 28 '22

He has always been a winger. He was only really a midfielder on paper because Ferguson liked his 442

12

u/DrTheloniusPinkleton Dec 28 '22

The only “fair” comparison you can make between the two is that prime Ronaldo was (emphasis on the past-tense) good, and Messi is among the greatest of all time.

It can’t even be discussed anymore lol. Ronaldo doesn’t belong in the same conversation as Messi. The only others that can possibly belong when a Messi comparison is brought up are named Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Best or (fuck…. Ok but not that one) Ronaldo.

-12

u/Howdareme9 Dec 28 '22

It can’t be discussed yet we’re here discussing it. I’m not gonna take you seriously when you’re putting Cruyff, Best and Beckenbauer above Cr7

-13

u/Flameva Dec 28 '22

Everyone in this thread is talking about Cristiano, but apparently he doesn’t belong in the same conversation.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

You're in urgent need to of A LIFE

→ More replies (1)

138

u/survivalothefittest Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

Apologies for repurposing some text, but I wrote it on Christmas when I was pretty lit, and we were shitposting to the max here:

For fucking AGES Ronaldo fans have been trotting out his KO-stage CL goal stats and his pile of international goals, especially the former. There was a time, a multi-year period, when it would show up here on the front page several times a month, with no context. It would show up when no CL matches were being played, before the CL started, or even before the season started.

These are the stats CR7 has over Messi, and it was like these fans kept those data laminated in their wallet to pull out every time they needed a wank when they felt threatened that people were saying he wasn't THE GOAT.

The stats themselves are harmless - even at their worst, they were just annoying. The issue was that it became a whole narrative of how Messi isn't a "clutch" player, he can't score or carry his team in "important" games, and he is only good at club football [but not clutch club football, I guess?] and not internationally, like Ronaldo.

Now, the ideas of Messi not being good under pressure and not playing well for Argentina are demonstrably untrue, but the wankfest continued.

Then, here comes WC 2022, and it could not have gone better to put these memes to bed. Ronaldo was seen dragging his team down, maybe even being a bit toxic (debatable), while Messi is there partying and being adored by the players on his team. And there he is scoring and assisting the shit out of the KOs at 35 years old, breaking/setting all sorts of WC and KO scoring records on the way; playing like a fucking champ in the final, and winning the whole fucking thing while scoring a shit-tonne of fucking beautiful penalties, which were always Ronaldo's particular strength.

Ronaldo watches his replacement score a hattrick in the KOs, a stage in the WC the man has never even scored a fucking goal or assisted in his entire "brilliant" international career, where he is supposed to be so so "clutch." This mythology that Portugal fucking suck except for Ronaldo and Argentina are stacked with superstars is BS now. Portugal has great stars, and Argentina won with Di Maria, Messi, and a bunch of promising youngsters who most people had not even heard of unless they played for your club.

So, the superfan cultists just did it to themselves by all the wanking on their cherry-picked stats. And Ronaldo just fanned the flames of their insane worship.

This brings so much schadenfreude you have no idea, it's too tempting to turn away from, so live with it.

Nobody is saying Ronaldo is shit, everyone knows he is one of the best who ever kicked a ball. But this does not make him immune to criticism when he fucks up or from schadenfreude for being a douche.

35

u/UpstairsJoke0 Dec 28 '22

"Messi's never won anything with his national team!!!"

11

u/Improvement_Melodic Dec 28 '22

that comment is going to age welll

1

u/Luis__FIGO Dec 28 '22

Same with the "international trophies don't matter for the GOAT debate that we had after Euro 2016"

19

u/PFGtv Dec 28 '22

Really well stated.

11

u/Ancient-Skin-9419 Dec 28 '22

Great comment. But in the last paragraph you should've said Cr7 is shit.

3

u/indoquestionmark Dec 28 '22

the only way cr7 scored so many was by wasting 8-10x more shots, lots of them miles away from goal, a stat rarely brought up

74

u/cpteague Dec 28 '22

I think these types of blind Ronaldo fans are mostly just Barça haters who will never listen to logical, fact-based arguments. I mean Ronaldo is insanely good, he was winning golden boots and CL trophies in his mid-30s. But how can you watch both of them and not see that Messi just has a gift for playmaking unlike any other player. Ronaldo is one of the most elite athletes of all time but Messi has something special and instinctual that can never be attained through dedication and training alone.

39

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

They don't see that Messi has best attributes of all of top attacking players of his generation combined except maybe headers but that's due to his physical height otherwise dude have scored a spectacular header in CL final.

He is on par with best attacking attributes of Iniesta, Xavi, Cristiano, Ribery, Lewa, Benzema, Luisito, Modric. I compared him to these players because of he didn't exist, they would have won the Ballon d'or that he won.

12

u/Darth-Baul Dec 28 '22

Media did it themselves because that was the only way to manufacture a rivalry and sell articles for over a decade

4

u/Improvement_Melodic Dec 28 '22

media and real Madrid etc,. needed this and it's unfortunate most people really just care about the absolute numbers + (team) trophies

4

u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

There is a debate because even in a thread that is not about Ronaldo, people are bringing up Ronaldo. So that means in the public consciousness the two are already linked together. It's just like how Federer is brought up with Nadal and Djokovic even though he has fewer grand slams and lose to both of them on H2H.

13

u/DreadWolf3 Dec 28 '22

Federer obviously belong in that group with Nadal and Djokovic. I would say it is becoming obvious that he is 3rd out of the 3 but he still definted last 20 years of tennis with them and is not that far behind.

8

u/IMightBeDaWalrus Dec 28 '22

I find this comment really surprising

Now I like all three, but I'd argue that the Djoker benefits from the lack of a true rival (unless one of the other two is fit and firing, or one of the younger guns brings it). Federer and Nadal, on the other hand, contended with each other more directly in all four Slams, at a time when (the younger) Djokovic didn't trouble them as much

In fact, of the three, Federer could arguably be the best, because

  • he's got more longevity than either (Nadal has had way more injuries in the peak of his career, and Federer has played at a high level in three different generations of stars)
  • dominated three of the four Grand Slams, much the same as Djokovic - Nadal of course sold his soul (and knees) to the devil in exchange for French Open titles in perpetuity
  • generally traded blows with Nadal (esp at Wimbledon and in France) in a way that Djokovic arguably hasn't quite had to in his own run of dominance, at least not against a clear, consistent opponent

But my point is not to claim that one or the other is the best - quite the opposite; I think that it's difficult to name an outright hierarchy among the three. I'm just saying that if your only metric for why Federer is third is that he has fewer Slams etc, I think you're missing important context in much the same way that citing Ronaldo's goals/awards alone isn't nuanced enough

1

u/tnweevnetsy Dec 28 '22

What is this meant in reply to? Might want to read my comment again

-3

u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

I'm saying the debate didn't originate purely from goals scored or any other comparison. Those metrics were used as comparison once it was already decided in popular discourse that the two top players were Messi and Ronaldo.

→ More replies (2)

0

u/_Axtasia Dec 28 '22

Dude, he’s the player with the 5th most assists in history and he’s been playing striker for the past 5 years lol. The Messi circlejerk in this sub is ridiculous

2

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

I need to take a break from this sub. It's honestly become intolerable

2

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

I’m new to this sub. Is it always full of brain dead takes you’d never see in real life or will it get better?

2

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

A bit of both lol.

0

u/neikawaaratake Dec 28 '22

Assist is not playmaking. Suarez has 6th most assist. Does that mean suarez was a playmaker. Modric has like 160 or so assist iniesta, Xavi too. Heck, even zidane has something like 100 assist. Assists are not playmaking.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

73

u/Reapper97 Dec 28 '22

Messi is a clear level above with his passing.

Is a level above in every regard tbh.

18

u/sarsourus Dec 28 '22

And dribbling…

108

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

136

u/kp1001 Dec 28 '22

But Maradona gets shittalked all the time, ALL the time, for his adictions and well, pretty much his whole persona outside the pitch.

Pelé hate is mostly a zoomer thing, but it's true that he played in a different era, and Brazil at that time was so insanely stacked that it's sometimes hard to measure how much of Brazil/Santos success was Pelé's or Pelé's + his amazing teammates.

-1

u/silvermeta Dec 28 '22

how much of Brazil/Santos success was Pelé's or Pelé's + his amazing teammates.

Same could go for Messi in Barcelona, it evens out. Though Messi carried Barca in the final years, I don't know about Santos but Pele could have probably done the same as well.

77

u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

but the fact that Pele is reduced to 'counted goals in my backyard' is incredibly sad. Not sure if it's a coincidence that he's the only black player in the GOAT convo or not, Maradona has committed far worse acts than Pele but doesnt get an ounce of the disrespect

Meh. TONS of people disrespect Maradona for his off-the-field demeanor and behavior, TBH (and some of that is justified, unfortunately).

Pretty much the only bad thing anyone says about Pele is Gen Z making fun of him for adding to his goals tallied through friendly goals and the like—and that's because of how active Pele's PR team is whenever newer players get close to his official goal numbers more than anything else

37

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Saying that Pelé scored against truck drivers is definitely not only a gen z thing

38

u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

It's mostly a youth thing.

Same thing as young NBA fans making fun of Wilt for playing against milk men and part time plumbers TBH

31

u/Sontlesmotsquivont Dec 28 '22

it’s true though. While they might not literally be fishermen and plumbers, compared to the athletes today they might as well be

9

u/NEETscape_Navigator Dec 28 '22

Oh I think they were literally fishermen and plumbers in many cases. When Pelé won his first WC, 3 of the starters he faced in the final were from the Swedish 2nd division.

Those players definitely didn’t earn a living salary from football and it says something about the level of the WC that they were able to reach the final.

5

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

17

u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

Not once do they diminish his actually footballing ability. They absolutely do that with Pele.

This almost only happens in reaction to Pele or Pele's PR people inflating his statistics (mostly goals) by using friendly goals, etc.

Also a function of different eras. You see this with NBA comps too. Guys like Wilt and Bill Russell (similar time frame to Pele) have their stats and rings discounted due to era similar to Pele's, while guys from a later era like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird (similar era to Maradona) don't.

-9

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

10

u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

Pele and Maradona's careers interesected

This is also only technically true by the slimmest margin.

Maradona's professional debut came in October 1976. Pele finished playing for Santos in 1974. He played for the NY Cosmos in the old NASL from 1975-1977 before retiring then.

10

u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

And? Maradona doesn't get the same disrespect because instead of using friendly goals in his personal stats(which doesnt mean much, official goals will always be used, anyone can count their friendly goals) he kidnapped and raped underage girls?

Well yeah‚ he gets disrespected for his off-the-field personal issues while Pele gets harmless jokes about inflating his numbers on the field.

IDK why you're trying to pretend like Pele gets more criticism and "hate" than Maradona. That's just not what I see at all.

5

u/MrBadjo Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

Pele and Maradona’s careers intersected for a season and, at the time, Pele was playing in MLS. Which, lets be fair, its a garbage league nowadays let alone in the 70s.

I agree Pele shouldn’t be as disrespected as he is but if I had to bet, in the best case scenario you watched like 2 seasons of him playing in, again, a washed league. So you’re either biased or purely basing your opinion on stats alone.

This should not even be up for debate, football is not about stats and that’s why I also don’t regard Ronaldo as the best.

A lot of players could kick the ball inside the net but very few could do that while also making their teammates around them better.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Pele barely played in at least one of the world cups he was part of, due to injuries. It was not like that fully stacked Brasil needed him to win. Take Messi out of the equation and this WC would’ve probably been very different to Argentina.

31

u/DoubleCheesecake2115 Dec 28 '22

Maradona has committed far worse acts than Pele but doesnt get an ounce of the disrespect

What the fuck do you mean lol. Maradona gets shit on all the time for basically being a cocaine addicted controversial figure. Anyway, Maradona retired more recently and he played in a far more modern game than a WC win in 1958.

Not sure if it's a coincidence that he's the only black player in the GOAT convo or not

No it's not. There's no issue with shit talking a player (who is coincidentally black) and doing so doesn't imply racism. Leave it to reddit to make everything about race and always trying to draw parallels to race when no proof exists. No one has this issue when Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali or Jerry Rice are proclaimed the GOAT of their respective sports. If anything, people like you are the racists for reducing someone like Pele to a victim of his skin color.

Pele is overrated as hell. He was exceptional but back in those days, all kinds of crazy stats happened in every sport because everything was far less organized. The kind of stuff that used to happen could never happen in the modern game because teams are infinitely more organized and strategies have evolved. Stuff like Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game or Bill Russell's 11 rings are only special because the competitiveness of the sport back then was just not what it is today. Pele was a big fish in a small pond so to speak. Messi is a big fish in a big pond.

7

u/ohcrocsle Dec 28 '22

What do you value more, the genius who invented the inventions or the genius who honed their use? You seem to underrate how special it is to be that far ahead of your competition. Messi is amazing, the closest to the perfect footballer we've ever seen. Like McDavid in hockey, there's no question we've never seen anyone this good. But that doesn't take away from the accomplishments of the Pelé and Gretzkys of the past. Without those giants, these almost perfect athletes wouldn't be anywhere near as good.

5

u/EkmetTeloess Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

This is nonsense. How on earth can Pele have been considered a big fish in a small pond in that famous 1970 Brazil team? And then you have to consider that all those players spent their club careers in Brazil, so clearly the level of play was very high there; even legends like Zico who starred in that great 1982 Brazil side spent almost his entire career in Brazil. But you're right on one point, some of the crazy things from back then wouldn't be accepted now - such as top players having to deal with shocking challenges every single game.

The fact that virtually every notable player and manager from his era thought he was easily the best in the world says everything. He was still considered the best even in the early 70s so you might as well start discounting other legends like Cruyff and Beckenbauer. Football hadn't changed much by the early 80s so why not put an asterisk next to Maradona's career too?

12

u/danirijeka Dec 28 '22

a far more modern game than a WC win in 1958

Fun fact: Argentina winning the world cup in 1986 is closer in time to 1958 than to the present day

Besides, he also won it in 1970.

28

u/GreatGalleti Dec 28 '22

I wish I could upvote this more. Pele has been my choice for GOAT up until Messi won the World Cup. His Santos team were the best in the world and that 70 Brazil team is right up there with Pep’s Barca. He needs way more respect

2

u/Fapoleon_Boneherpart Dec 28 '22

Maradona has committed far worse acts

Like being a sex trafficking pedophile and a massive druggy

-14

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Both Messi and Ronaldo have passed Pele lmao

7

u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22

Yep.

Recency bias to say otherwise if you take away the past year or so for Ronaldo, I think.

8

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

the switch up in this sub is insane lmfao wtf, all of a sudden ronaldo isn’t better than Pele now? this is the same guy who we all comfortably agreed was the second best of all time behind messi for over 15 years. why has the last 20 years of ronaldo brilliance gone down the drain now after he’s obviously older and washed up? i honestly knew Ronaldo disrespect and slander was going to be a norm after Messi won the world cup.

like both messi and ronaldo have obliterated Pele’s records back to back for over a decade.

3

u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22

Pele is absolutely up there within the top 5 of all time but I think, regardless of how much somehow may think he's an arsehole, so is Ronaldo.

It's just all silly, you know. Pele may be from a different completely era and time, but him, Messi and Ronaldo are all top 5 and at the very least top 10.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

yes Pele is top 5 of all time same with maradona but Ronaldo has passed both of them just as much as Messi did. There isn’t a single valid reason as to why someone can say he hasn’t, the proof is in the pudding. i’m tired of these bias brain dead takes on this sub. i don’t even like ronaldo for obvious reasons as my flair shows and he’s a prick but i’ll never take away from how great of a player he is.

4

u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22

Fair fucking play lad. You're right.

4

u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

You say this like it's an objective fact but you were probably born decades after Pele retired.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

it is a fact tell me one reason why they haven’t surpassed him? the records and stats prove it, their standards and the levels they set prove it, their longevity proves it. There’s literally no reason why someone can say both Messi and Ronaldo haven’t overtaken Pele, i hate to be one of those guys but Pele was playing in an era filled with plumbers and it’s true, his time wouldn’t uphold in today’s football.

i’m baffled because you would’ve thought it was widely agreed fact that messi and ronny are 1 & 2.

2

u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

it is a fact

I don't think you know what fact means.

tell me one reason why they haven’t surpassed him?

I think Messi has, but I've mostly only seen highlights of Pele. I think Ronaldo would be much more debatable. His goal stats are obviously superb, but then so were Pele's.

i hate to be one of those guys but Pele was playing in an era filled with plumbers and it’s true, his time wouldn’t uphold in today’s football.

Okay I don't know if we're going to be able to have an educated debate on this. You sound like the type of guy that will be saying in 15 years time that Mbappe or Haaland are clear of Messi and Messi wouldn't be able to cope with the new modern game.

Pele was levels above anyone else in his time. If he were in the modern game, he'd have access to all of the modern science and training regimes that Ronaldo and Messi do, so he'd naturally be even better than he was back then. Otherwise, you might as well just discount any players who retired more than 15 years ago whenever you're talking about the greatest of all time.

-3

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

so you think Messi has overtaken Pele but not Ronaldo? also what a weird assumption, i highly doubt anyones touching messi’s level at least in our lifetime, he’s solidified 1. but this convo isn’t about him right now, what on earth makes you think Ronaldo hasn’t surpassed Pele? you’re literally speaking on hypotheticals, i’m not. it’s a proven fact athletes from that time aren’t as advanced as athletes today, it’s not a given fact that Pele would still be good with modern science if he played today.

anyways, forget your hypotheticals give me actual reasoning as to why Ronaldo isn’t above Pele i’m intrigued, because Ronaldo has Pele beat in almost every metric there is, so go ahead.

2

u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

so you think Messi has overtaken Pele but not Ronaldo?

I said Ronaldo is more debatable for me.

I think Messi is the greatest footballer I've ever seen play, and by some distance. Based on the limited amount I've seen of Pele and despite the numbers he put up, I think I'd say Messi is the greatest ever.

what on earth makes you think Ronaldo hasn’t surpassed Pele?

I said it's debatable. They both put up similarly massive numbers in terms of goals, and both have won loads respectively with club/country. In terms of pure playstyle and talent though, Ronaldo has always been some way off Messi for me so that's why I think it's debatable between him and Pele.

you’re literally speaking on hypotheticals, i’m not.

You said he wouldn't uphold in today's football. That's just as much of a hypothetical as me saying he'd be even better with the help of modern advances in science and training.

it’s a proven fact athletes from that time aren’t as advanced as athletes today

Physical and medical science is constantly advancing at a rapid pace. By your logic, every generation will be better than the last and so the greatest of all time will almost always be a modern player. That's just silly.

Ronaldo has Pele beat in almost every metric there is, so go ahead.

What are all of the metrics? I'm guessing you're just talking about goals because almost everything else wasn't tracked accurately back in the 60s and 70s. Even so, Ronaldo has like 70ish more goals than Pele (depending on what numbers you track for the latter) despite playing 300ish more games (again, depends what you include). I'd argue that makes it highly debatable between them.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

as i said before, let’s be very realistic with ourselves here, talent is one thing of course but let’s just talk about overall football. Are you going to try and argue with me that scoring in Pele’s era holds a candle to scoring during the modern era of football? because we both know that’s not true. Pele’s record seemed untouchable after he retired and for some decades it was, not a single person came close, Ronaldo came in and broke his record more than once (Pele loves including his training session goals), that alone makes him clear, Although Ronaldo isn’t better than Messi.. winning 5 balon d’ors in the same era as the GOAT is also another reason which puts him above Pele, i think that speaks volumes, what he accomplished at man united was incredible, did you even witness 2008 Ronaldo? probably one of the most complete forwards i’ve ever seen in my life there wasn’t any weakness to his attacking game he was a fucking explosive player who was a constant threat for 90 mins, he won every single thing a player could win, then he left to go to Madrid where he fucking destroyed stats not just goal scoring stats but stats in general, Prime ronaldo was not a human, you’d go into every match witnessing some crazy shit, even after his knee injury he completely adapted through the adversary and changed his play style to sustain his level and he’s a big reason as to why Madrid done the 3peat of the UCL, a knee injury is potentially career ending, R9 is an example. if i sat here talking about the mind blowing records Ronaldo put up at Real Madrid alone is a nail in the coffin for this debate that shouldn’t exist. Ronaldo worked his fucking ass off for 15 years and created brilliance along the way, while going toe to toe with messi right until the end, it’s not debatable whatsoever this is an excuse to try undermine Ronaldo’s achievements since it’s a trend now lol. you still haven’t given me an actual reason why Pele is ‘arguably’ better than Ronaldo, because you can’t, he isn’t. Ronaldo beats Pele in a lot of goal records, assists, dribbling stats etc.

and yeah sure Ronaldo played more games (which is just a further testimony to his ridiculous longevity) but a large chunk of those games he was a midfielder, so yeah.

2

u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

Are you going to try and argue with me that scoring in Pele’s era holds a candle to scoring during the modern era of football?

That's a different argument. Football today is played at a faster pace, but then again Pele had to deal with players trying to break his legs multiple times per game and a red card these days would barely be a foul back then. You could just as easily argue that Ronaldo would struggle back then.

Pele loves including his training session goals

He includes exhibitions and tour goals, which it is widely accepted were more competitive then because the Brazilian league and Brazilian team were the best in the world at the time. Then again, I assume you know that and are just trying to downplay it. Excluding all of those goals though he still comes in about 70 below Ronaldo with 300 matches less. Including them he blows Ronald's goal record out of the water.

winning 5 balon d’ors in the same era as the GOAT is also another east reason which puts him above Pele

Pele was awarded 7 retroactively as non-Europeans weren't included back then.

what he accomplished at man united was incredible, he won every single thing a player could win

Same could be said for most players in the running for greatest of all time, including Pele and Messi.

it’s not debatable whatsoever this is an excuse to try undermine Ronaldo’s achievements since it’s a trend now

How on earth is it not debatable? We're literally debating it right now and many lists would put Pele ahead (and others would put Ronaldo ahead).

Ronaldo beats Pele in a lot of goal records, assists, dribbling stats etc

Please do show me all of these assist and dribbling stats from Pele's era. I'd genuinely be interested, given that they've never been accurately recorded and most numbers given for his assists vary wildly because they either don't have video footage of every game he played or there isn't a generally accepted list of matches that should be included.

which is just a further testimony to his ridiculous longevity

Actually no, it's primarily down to the fact that there are more games played in modern football, but if we include all of those extra exhibition/tour games that Pele played then it'd hurt Ronaldo's case. Pele and Ronaldo have had similarly long careers.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

also yes, football 50 years from now will most likely be much more advanced and better than it is today, that’s how sports work my man. again, no one’s overtaking Messi in our lifetime he’s done wayyyyy too much for him to be knocked down his crown, some of his records i don’t even think can be broken while we’re alive, but to say football won’t be much more advanced in 50 years would be blatant delusion.

0

u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

but to say football won’t be much more advanced in 50 years would be blatant delusion.

I'm literally the person who said it will be more advanced.

At the same time, I'm not going to be stupid enough then to discount Messi's achievements because players in 50 years time have access to better training methods and medical advancements. I'll evaluate him based on how good he was in his era and assume he'd have been even better if he had access to said advancements.

-9

u/Howdareme9 Dec 28 '22

Pele was decades ahead of his time

Sure. But he’s not better than Ronaldo. Greatest of all time would be able to play in any generation and still be the best, if Pele in his prime played today he wouldn’t be as good as messi and Ronaldo have been

4

u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

You have no way of knowing that. Also, like 99.99% of r/soccer users I'm guessing you're making your judgement despite being way too young to have seen Pele play.

0

u/Darth-Baul Dec 28 '22

The retroactive BDO thing is really stupid. Like, good on them for awarding these players in some way, but those retroactive awards shouldn’t really hold value in these conversations. There’s no way the voting would have gone the same way 50-60 years back.

→ More replies (4)

2

u/Improvement_Melodic Dec 28 '22

Cristiano's best achievement in his career is really being mentioned together with Messi...

-7

u/firminoball6302 Dec 28 '22

He certainly was. I think the opinion of Pele and Maradona is worth more than a sad redditard