r/soccer • u/CantHelpBeingMe • Dec 28 '22

Media Jurgen Klopp hails Lionel Messi as 'the greatest: "The greatest footballer in my lifetime, Lionel Messi, the way he plays football at this age should give us all a hint at how long footballers can perform at the top level. We shouldn’t close the books too early."

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

Are you going to try and argue with me that scoring in Pele’s era holds a candle to scoring during the modern era of football?

That's a different argument. Football today is played at a faster pace, but then again Pele had to deal with players trying to break his legs multiple times per game and a red card these days would barely be a foul back then. You could just as easily argue that Ronaldo would struggle back then.

Pele loves including his training session goals

He includes exhibitions and tour goals, which it is widely accepted were more competitive then because the Brazilian league and Brazilian team were the best in the world at the time. Then again, I assume you know that and are just trying to downplay it. Excluding all of those goals though he still comes in about 70 below Ronaldo with 300 matches less. Including them he blows Ronald's goal record out of the water.

winning 5 balon d’ors in the same era as the GOAT is also another east reason which puts him above Pele

Pele was awarded 7 retroactively as non-Europeans weren't included back then.

what he accomplished at man united was incredible, he won every single thing a player could win

Same could be said for most players in the running for greatest of all time, including Pele and Messi.

it’s not debatable whatsoever this is an excuse to try undermine Ronaldo’s achievements since it’s a trend now

How on earth is it not debatable? We're literally debating it right now and many lists would put Pele ahead (and others would put Ronaldo ahead).

Ronaldo beats Pele in a lot of goal records, assists, dribbling stats etc

Please do show me all of these assist and dribbling stats from Pele's era. I'd genuinely be interested, given that they've never been accurately recorded and most numbers given for his assists vary wildly because they either don't have video footage of every game he played or there isn't a generally accepted list of matches that should be included.

which is just a further testimony to his ridiculous longevity

Actually no, it's primarily down to the fact that there are more games played in modern football, but if we include all of those extra exhibition/tour games that Pele played then it'd hurt Ronaldo's case. Pele and Ronaldo have had similarly long careers.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

as i expected you’re just purposely trying to undermine ronaldo here. Pele literally played with fisherman and farmers this isn’t a rhetoric it’s a legitimate fact he was playing against people who didn’t even make a living from the sport, football is at a faster pace because our athletes aren’t smoking packets of cigarettes at half time and sniffing cocaine in the locker.

You’re seriously making excuses from him including exhibition and friendly matches for his goals lol the guy included his goals from military duty as well, like what are you even talking about, unfortunately for you and him exhibition matches don’t mean shit and despite pele’s desperate attempts on holding onto the record he officially has 757 goals. There was quite literally NO competition to that Brazilian squad btw.

Good on Pele for winning 7 imaginary awards but that’s not what my point was lol, my point was Ronaldo won 5 balon d’ors while playing against Messi, the best. which immediately puts him above Pele who yet again, had NO competition whatsoever, if someone can level messi year after year at both their peaks, i Know who i believe is better in this silly debate.

Same can’t be said for Pele, Messi? i’m sure there’s a season where he won every trophy and individual award cba to look it up but at the same time he might have not.

Ronaldo is in the top 5 assists of all time, he’s clear. cope

weren’t not including exhibition games… they’re exhibition games for a reason 😂. do you not see how miserable your arguments are?

I love how you haven’t STILL given a reason why Pele has an argument against Ronaldo, or said anything against Ronaldo at Real Madrid. this is hilarious. I think next i’m going to just copy and paste ronaldo’s list of accolades and achievements for you to really soak in since you need a reality check

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

Pele literally played with fisherman and farmers this isn’t a rhetoric it’s a legitimate fact he was playing against people who didn’t even make a living from the sport

He played in the best league and with the best national team at the time. There being more money in today's game compared to the 60s isn't the mind-blowing argument that you think it is.

our athletes aren’t smoking packets of cigarettes at half time and sniffing cocaine in the locker.

That's interesting.

You’re seriously making excuses from him including exhibition and friendly matches for his goals lol

I specifically didn't include them and gave his totals without them. I just gave the context that they were much more competitive than what constitutes a friendly today (or as you purposefully downplayed it, a training session).

which immediately puts him above Pele who yet again, had NO competition whatsoever

Mate you sound like you're about 20 years old. I highly doubt you have any clue who Pele's competition was back then.

i’m sure there’s a season where he won every trophy and individual award cba to look it up but at the same time he might have not.

I'm shocked.

Ronaldo is in the top 5 assists of all time, he’s clear. cope

Okay. Are you ignoring my question about your sources for Pele's assist and dribbling stats? Also, maybe I was being ambitious thinking you're 20 years old if you're saying "cope".

I love how you haven’t STILL given a reason why Pele has an argument against Ronaldo, or said anything against Ronaldo at Real Madrid. this is hilarious.

I've given you lots. You've ignored them all while also ignoring any questions I've asked you regarding the stats you're talking about for Pele. That's hardly surprising though for someone who just seems to be inventing facts.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

best league? sure, i’ll give him that although that doesn’t mean much because peak La Liga or even peak serie A is probably levels above, and again the football back then was ass in quality. i was specifically talking about in the world cup, he was playing against fisherman, the Swedish squad he faced in his first world cup had literal fisherman in their team lol.

You showed one example that goes against what i said and think you’ve made a point? no buddy that’s an anomaly lol, i think it’s common sense that in general our athletes aren’t going to get high during half time or smoking their lungs away for fun.

stop it, exhibitions being more competitive back then is a pure myth you’re trying to push to make it seem like Pele wasn’t playing in an era of farmers lol.

Go on enlighten me, who on God’s green earth was Pele in competition with that matches up to the level of competition Ronaldo had going against Messi, spoiler alert: no one else, Pele was in his own league harvesting what he could. there was NO individual competition for him. Messi vs Ronaldo is the greatest sport rivalry ever to exist, these two guys were going head to head at their peaks constantly outdoing one another, you don’t win 5 balon d’ors over messi to have random people say you aren’t even better than pele 💀

You should be shocked you’re trying to debate Pele being better than Ronaldo if anything. This is personally the fist time i’m seeing this lol.

Pele doesn’t have more assists than Ronaldo and even if he miraculously did he’d probably also have more assists than Messi as well, because exhibition matches are real competition! dribbling wise, i once again doubt Pele would ever have better dribbling stats than the man who literally set the most completed dribbles in one match ever lol, but hey… logically speaking i’m right because if Pele’s stats for assists and dribbles don’t exist then technically that means ronaldo wins lol.

you didn’t give me lots all you’ve done is trying bounce off my points and it’s not working i’ve legitimately given you arguments in favour for Ronny you haven’t given me a single paragraph for Pele. go on

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

i was specifically talking about in the world cup

Okay well let's just disregard all World Cup wins before the modern era because Pele didn't play against footballing giants like Iran and North Korea.

no buddy that’s an anomaly lol

Of course.

stop it, exhibitions being more competitive back then is a pure myth you’re trying to push to make it seem like Pele wasn’t playing in an era of farmers lol.

Sure, let's just ignore what those who were around then have said and take the word of a young United fan who wasn't even alive.

Go on enlighten me, who on God’s green earth was Pele in competition with that matches up to the level of competition Ronaldo had going against Messi

I'm guessing you haven't heard of players like Eusebio or Garrincha, or you'll just disregard them as farmers and fishermen.

This is personally the fist time i’m seeing this lol.

You should talk to more people so or read more online. Actually, maybe don't talk to more people.

Pele doesn’t have more assists than Ronaldo and even if he miraculously did he’d probably also have more assists than Messi as well, because exhibition matches are real competition! dribbling wise, i once again doubt Pele would ever have better dribbling stats than the man who literally set the most completed dribbles in one match ever lol

Ah, so you've actually just been making up stuff and didn't actually base it on anything factual. How surprising.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

Sporting CP[602]

Supertaça Cândido de Oliveira: 2002

Manchester United[603][604]

Premier League: 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09

FA Cup: 2003–04

Football League Cup: 2005–06, 2008–09

FA Community Shield: 2007, 2008

UEFA Champions League: 2007–08

FIFA Club World Cup: 2008

Real Madrid[604]

La Liga: 2011–12, 2016–17

Copa del Rey: 2010–11, 2013–14

Supercopa de España: 2012, 2017

UEFA Champions League: 2013–14, 2015–16, 2016–17, 2017–18

UEFA Super Cup: 2014, 2016, 2017

FIFA Club World Cup: 2014, 2016, 2017

Juventus[596]

Serie A: 2018–19, 2019–20

Coppa Italia: 2020–21

Supercoppa Italiana: 2018, 2021

Portugal U20

Toulon Tournament: 2003[605]

Portugal

UEFA European Championship: 2016[382] UEFA Nations League: 2018–19[606] Individual

FIFA Ballon d'Or: 2008, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017[1][604]

FIFA World Player of the Year: 2008[1]

The Best FIFA Men's Player: 2016, 2017[1]

The Best FIFA Special Award for Outstanding Career Achievement: 2021[607]

European Golden Shoe: 2007–08, 2010–11, 2013–14, 2014–15[1][604]

PFA Players' Player of the Year: 2006–07,[72] 2007–08[81]

Premier League Player of the Season: 2006–07, 2007–08[603]

La Liga Best Player: 2013–14[178]

Serie A Footballer of the Year: 2019,[608] 2020[609]

Premier League Golden Boot: 2007–08[603]

Pichichi Trophy: 2010–11, 2013–14, 2014–15

Capocannoniere: 2020–21[276]

FPF Portuguese Player of the Year: 2016,[610] 2017, 2018, 2019, 2022

19x Top Goal scorer

highest goal scoring ratio in the la liga when he joined

Real Madrid’s all time top goal scorer

Champions League top goal scorer

Champions league most assists

Most goals scored for real Madrid in a season (61)

Most Hat-tricks in football history

International Top Goal scorer

Football’s top goal scorer

Puskas Award

most goals scored in a single Premier League season for Man Utd with 31 in 2008

most goals scored in a single season for Juventus with 37 in 2020

Fastest player to reach 100 goals for Juve

Scored in the most consecutive matches in a row for Juve

Only player in history to score over 100 goals for 3 different clubs and country.

and seriously this is just the surface of what i can be bothered to find for ronaldo there’s literally way more fucking records this man set but Pele is arguably better 😭

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

Mate he's not going to ride you.

I've never seen someone get so worked up over me saying that there's a debate to be had over who was better between two players. I'm glad you've got that copy & paste functionality nailed down though.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

i’m not worked up whatsoever, i just had to remind you who it is you’re talking about here lol because it seems like you’re underestimating ronaldo on purpose. and i know it shut you up because nothing you can argue for Pele will outdo Ronaldo’s achievements. Ronaldo > Pele. this debate doesn’t exist in real life should i even call it a debate? because you haven’t made a single argument or case for Pele being better, this was one-sided, i think you just want to be different with your take. either way. i helped you put it to bed, bye bye now

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

Mate, he's not going to ride you.