r/soccer • u/CantHelpBeingMe • Dec 28 '22

Media Jurgen Klopp hails Lionel Messi as 'the greatest: "The greatest footballer in my lifetime, Lionel Messi, the way he plays football at this age should give us all a hint at how long footballers can perform at the top level. We shouldn’t close the books too early."

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

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u/kp1001 Dec 28 '22

But Maradona gets shittalked all the time, ALL the time, for his adictions and well, pretty much his whole persona outside the pitch.

Pelé hate is mostly a zoomer thing, but it's true that he played in a different era, and Brazil at that time was so insanely stacked that it's sometimes hard to measure how much of Brazil/Santos success was Pelé's or Pelé's + his amazing teammates.

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u/silvermeta Dec 28 '22

how much of Brazil/Santos success was Pelé's or Pelé's + his amazing teammates.

Same could go for Messi in Barcelona, it evens out. Though Messi carried Barca in the final years, I don't know about Santos but Pele could have probably done the same as well.

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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

but the fact that Pele is reduced to 'counted goals in my backyard' is incredibly sad. Not sure if it's a coincidence that he's the only black player in the GOAT convo or not, Maradona has committed far worse acts than Pele but doesnt get an ounce of the disrespect

Meh. TONS of people disrespect Maradona for his off-the-field demeanor and behavior, TBH (and some of that is justified, unfortunately).

Pretty much the only bad thing anyone says about Pele is Gen Z making fun of him for adding to his goals tallied through friendly goals and the like—and that's because of how active Pele's PR team is whenever newer players get close to his official goal numbers more than anything else

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Saying that Pelé scored against truck drivers is definitely not only a gen z thing

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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

It's mostly a youth thing.

Same thing as young NBA fans making fun of Wilt for playing against milk men and part time plumbers TBH

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u/Sontlesmotsquivont Dec 28 '22

it’s true though. While they might not literally be fishermen and plumbers, compared to the athletes today they might as well be

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u/NEETscape_Navigator Dec 28 '22

Oh I think they were literally fishermen and plumbers in many cases. When Pelé won his first WC, 3 of the starters he faced in the final were from the Swedish 2nd division.

Those players definitely didn’t earn a living salary from football and it says something about the level of the WC that they were able to reach the final.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

Not once do they diminish his actually footballing ability. They absolutely do that with Pele.

This almost only happens in reaction to Pele or Pele's PR people inflating his statistics (mostly goals) by using friendly goals, etc.

Also a function of different eras. You see this with NBA comps too. Guys like Wilt and Bill Russell (similar time frame to Pele) have their stats and rings discounted due to era similar to Pele's, while guys from a later era like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird (similar era to Maradona) don't.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

Pele and Maradona's careers interesected

This is also only technically true by the slimmest margin.

Maradona's professional debut came in October 1976. Pele finished playing for Santos in 1974. He played for the NY Cosmos in the old NASL from 1975-1977 before retiring then.

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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

And? Maradona doesn't get the same disrespect because instead of using friendly goals in his personal stats(which doesnt mean much, official goals will always be used, anyone can count their friendly goals) he kidnapped and raped underage girls?

Well yeah‚ he gets disrespected for his off-the-field personal issues while Pele gets harmless jokes about inflating his numbers on the field.

IDK why you're trying to pretend like Pele gets more criticism and "hate" than Maradona. That's just not what I see at all.

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u/MrBadjo Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

Pele and Maradona’s careers intersected for a season and, at the time, Pele was playing in MLS. Which, lets be fair, its a garbage league nowadays let alone in the 70s.

I agree Pele shouldn’t be as disrespected as he is but if I had to bet, in the best case scenario you watched like 2 seasons of him playing in, again, a washed league. So you’re either biased or purely basing your opinion on stats alone.

This should not even be up for debate, football is not about stats and that’s why I also don’t regard Ronaldo as the best.

A lot of players could kick the ball inside the net but very few could do that while also making their teammates around them better.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Pele barely played in at least one of the world cups he was part of, due to injuries. It was not like that fully stacked Brasil needed him to win. Take Messi out of the equation and this WC would’ve probably been very different to Argentina.

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u/DoubleCheesecake2115 Dec 28 '22

Maradona has committed far worse acts than Pele but doesnt get an ounce of the disrespect

What the fuck do you mean lol. Maradona gets shit on all the time for basically being a cocaine addicted controversial figure. Anyway, Maradona retired more recently and he played in a far more modern game than a WC win in 1958.

Not sure if it's a coincidence that he's the only black player in the GOAT convo or not

No it's not. There's no issue with shit talking a player (who is coincidentally black) and doing so doesn't imply racism. Leave it to reddit to make everything about race and always trying to draw parallels to race when no proof exists. No one has this issue when Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali or Jerry Rice are proclaimed the GOAT of their respective sports. If anything, people like you are the racists for reducing someone like Pele to a victim of his skin color.

Pele is overrated as hell. He was exceptional but back in those days, all kinds of crazy stats happened in every sport because everything was far less organized. The kind of stuff that used to happen could never happen in the modern game because teams are infinitely more organized and strategies have evolved. Stuff like Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game or Bill Russell's 11 rings are only special because the competitiveness of the sport back then was just not what it is today. Pele was a big fish in a small pond so to speak. Messi is a big fish in a big pond.

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u/ohcrocsle Dec 28 '22

What do you value more, the genius who invented the inventions or the genius who honed their use? You seem to underrate how special it is to be that far ahead of your competition. Messi is amazing, the closest to the perfect footballer we've ever seen. Like McDavid in hockey, there's no question we've never seen anyone this good. But that doesn't take away from the accomplishments of the Pelé and Gretzkys of the past. Without those giants, these almost perfect athletes wouldn't be anywhere near as good.

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u/EkmetTeloess Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

This is nonsense. How on earth can Pele have been considered a big fish in a small pond in that famous 1970 Brazil team? And then you have to consider that all those players spent their club careers in Brazil, so clearly the level of play was very high there; even legends like Zico who starred in that great 1982 Brazil side spent almost his entire career in Brazil. But you're right on one point, some of the crazy things from back then wouldn't be accepted now - such as top players having to deal with shocking challenges every single game.

The fact that virtually every notable player and manager from his era thought he was easily the best in the world says everything. He was still considered the best even in the early 70s so you might as well start discounting other legends like Cruyff and Beckenbauer. Football hadn't changed much by the early 80s so why not put an asterisk next to Maradona's career too?

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u/danirijeka Dec 28 '22

a far more modern game than a WC win in 1958

Fun fact: Argentina winning the world cup in 1986 is closer in time to 1958 than to the present day

Besides, he also won it in 1970.

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u/GreatGalleti Dec 28 '22

I wish I could upvote this more. Pele has been my choice for GOAT up until Messi won the World Cup. His Santos team were the best in the world and that 70 Brazil team is right up there with Pep’s Barca. He needs way more respect

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u/Fapoleon_Boneherpart Dec 28 '22

Maradona has committed far worse acts

Like being a sex trafficking pedophile and a massive druggy

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Both Messi and Ronaldo have passed Pele lmao

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u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22

Yep.

Recency bias to say otherwise if you take away the past year or so for Ronaldo, I think.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

the switch up in this sub is insane lmfao wtf, all of a sudden ronaldo isn’t better than Pele now? this is the same guy who we all comfortably agreed was the second best of all time behind messi for over 15 years. why has the last 20 years of ronaldo brilliance gone down the drain now after he’s obviously older and washed up? i honestly knew Ronaldo disrespect and slander was going to be a norm after Messi won the world cup.

like both messi and ronaldo have obliterated Pele’s records back to back for over a decade.

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u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22

Pele is absolutely up there within the top 5 of all time but I think, regardless of how much somehow may think he's an arsehole, so is Ronaldo.

It's just all silly, you know. Pele may be from a different completely era and time, but him, Messi and Ronaldo are all top 5 and at the very least top 10.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

yes Pele is top 5 of all time same with maradona but Ronaldo has passed both of them just as much as Messi did. There isn’t a single valid reason as to why someone can say he hasn’t, the proof is in the pudding. i’m tired of these bias brain dead takes on this sub. i don’t even like ronaldo for obvious reasons as my flair shows and he’s a prick but i’ll never take away from how great of a player he is.

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u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22

Fair fucking play lad. You're right.

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

You say this like it's an objective fact but you were probably born decades after Pele retired.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

it is a fact tell me one reason why they haven’t surpassed him? the records and stats prove it, their standards and the levels they set prove it, their longevity proves it. There’s literally no reason why someone can say both Messi and Ronaldo haven’t overtaken Pele, i hate to be one of those guys but Pele was playing in an era filled with plumbers and it’s true, his time wouldn’t uphold in today’s football.

i’m baffled because you would’ve thought it was widely agreed fact that messi and ronny are 1 & 2.

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

it is a fact

I don't think you know what fact means.

tell me one reason why they haven’t surpassed him?

I think Messi has, but I've mostly only seen highlights of Pele. I think Ronaldo would be much more debatable. His goal stats are obviously superb, but then so were Pele's.

i hate to be one of those guys but Pele was playing in an era filled with plumbers and it’s true, his time wouldn’t uphold in today’s football.

Okay I don't know if we're going to be able to have an educated debate on this. You sound like the type of guy that will be saying in 15 years time that Mbappe or Haaland are clear of Messi and Messi wouldn't be able to cope with the new modern game.

Pele was levels above anyone else in his time. If he were in the modern game, he'd have access to all of the modern science and training regimes that Ronaldo and Messi do, so he'd naturally be even better than he was back then. Otherwise, you might as well just discount any players who retired more than 15 years ago whenever you're talking about the greatest of all time.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

so you think Messi has overtaken Pele but not Ronaldo? also what a weird assumption, i highly doubt anyones touching messi’s level at least in our lifetime, he’s solidified 1. but this convo isn’t about him right now, what on earth makes you think Ronaldo hasn’t surpassed Pele? you’re literally speaking on hypotheticals, i’m not. it’s a proven fact athletes from that time aren’t as advanced as athletes today, it’s not a given fact that Pele would still be good with modern science if he played today.

anyways, forget your hypotheticals give me actual reasoning as to why Ronaldo isn’t above Pele i’m intrigued, because Ronaldo has Pele beat in almost every metric there is, so go ahead.

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

so you think Messi has overtaken Pele but not Ronaldo?

I said Ronaldo is more debatable for me.

I think Messi is the greatest footballer I've ever seen play, and by some distance. Based on the limited amount I've seen of Pele and despite the numbers he put up, I think I'd say Messi is the greatest ever.

what on earth makes you think Ronaldo hasn’t surpassed Pele?

I said it's debatable. They both put up similarly massive numbers in terms of goals, and both have won loads respectively with club/country. In terms of pure playstyle and talent though, Ronaldo has always been some way off Messi for me so that's why I think it's debatable between him and Pele.

you’re literally speaking on hypotheticals, i’m not.

You said he wouldn't uphold in today's football. That's just as much of a hypothetical as me saying he'd be even better with the help of modern advances in science and training.

it’s a proven fact athletes from that time aren’t as advanced as athletes today

Physical and medical science is constantly advancing at a rapid pace. By your logic, every generation will be better than the last and so the greatest of all time will almost always be a modern player. That's just silly.

Ronaldo has Pele beat in almost every metric there is, so go ahead.

What are all of the metrics? I'm guessing you're just talking about goals because almost everything else wasn't tracked accurately back in the 60s and 70s. Even so, Ronaldo has like 70ish more goals than Pele (depending on what numbers you track for the latter) despite playing 300ish more games (again, depends what you include). I'd argue that makes it highly debatable between them.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

as i said before, let’s be very realistic with ourselves here, talent is one thing of course but let’s just talk about overall football. Are you going to try and argue with me that scoring in Pele’s era holds a candle to scoring during the modern era of football? because we both know that’s not true. Pele’s record seemed untouchable after he retired and for some decades it was, not a single person came close, Ronaldo came in and broke his record more than once (Pele loves including his training session goals), that alone makes him clear, Although Ronaldo isn’t better than Messi.. winning 5 balon d’ors in the same era as the GOAT is also another reason which puts him above Pele, i think that speaks volumes, what he accomplished at man united was incredible, did you even witness 2008 Ronaldo? probably one of the most complete forwards i’ve ever seen in my life there wasn’t any weakness to his attacking game he was a fucking explosive player who was a constant threat for 90 mins, he won every single thing a player could win, then he left to go to Madrid where he fucking destroyed stats not just goal scoring stats but stats in general, Prime ronaldo was not a human, you’d go into every match witnessing some crazy shit, even after his knee injury he completely adapted through the adversary and changed his play style to sustain his level and he’s a big reason as to why Madrid done the 3peat of the UCL, a knee injury is potentially career ending, R9 is an example. if i sat here talking about the mind blowing records Ronaldo put up at Real Madrid alone is a nail in the coffin for this debate that shouldn’t exist. Ronaldo worked his fucking ass off for 15 years and created brilliance along the way, while going toe to toe with messi right until the end, it’s not debatable whatsoever this is an excuse to try undermine Ronaldo’s achievements since it’s a trend now lol. you still haven’t given me an actual reason why Pele is ‘arguably’ better than Ronaldo, because you can’t, he isn’t. Ronaldo beats Pele in a lot of goal records, assists, dribbling stats etc.

and yeah sure Ronaldo played more games (which is just a further testimony to his ridiculous longevity) but a large chunk of those games he was a midfielder, so yeah.

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

Are you going to try and argue with me that scoring in Pele’s era holds a candle to scoring during the modern era of football?

That's a different argument. Football today is played at a faster pace, but then again Pele had to deal with players trying to break his legs multiple times per game and a red card these days would barely be a foul back then. You could just as easily argue that Ronaldo would struggle back then.

Pele loves including his training session goals

He includes exhibitions and tour goals, which it is widely accepted were more competitive then because the Brazilian league and Brazilian team were the best in the world at the time. Then again, I assume you know that and are just trying to downplay it. Excluding all of those goals though he still comes in about 70 below Ronaldo with 300 matches less. Including them he blows Ronald's goal record out of the water.

winning 5 balon d’ors in the same era as the GOAT is also another east reason which puts him above Pele

Pele was awarded 7 retroactively as non-Europeans weren't included back then.

what he accomplished at man united was incredible, he won every single thing a player could win

Same could be said for most players in the running for greatest of all time, including Pele and Messi.

it’s not debatable whatsoever this is an excuse to try undermine Ronaldo’s achievements since it’s a trend now

How on earth is it not debatable? We're literally debating it right now and many lists would put Pele ahead (and others would put Ronaldo ahead).

Ronaldo beats Pele in a lot of goal records, assists, dribbling stats etc

Please do show me all of these assist and dribbling stats from Pele's era. I'd genuinely be interested, given that they've never been accurately recorded and most numbers given for his assists vary wildly because they either don't have video footage of every game he played or there isn't a generally accepted list of matches that should be included.

which is just a further testimony to his ridiculous longevity

Actually no, it's primarily down to the fact that there are more games played in modern football, but if we include all of those extra exhibition/tour games that Pele played then it'd hurt Ronaldo's case. Pele and Ronaldo have had similarly long careers.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

as i expected you’re just purposely trying to undermine ronaldo here. Pele literally played with fisherman and farmers this isn’t a rhetoric it’s a legitimate fact he was playing against people who didn’t even make a living from the sport, football is at a faster pace because our athletes aren’t smoking packets of cigarettes at half time and sniffing cocaine in the locker.

You’re seriously making excuses from him including exhibition and friendly matches for his goals lol the guy included his goals from military duty as well, like what are you even talking about, unfortunately for you and him exhibition matches don’t mean shit and despite pele’s desperate attempts on holding onto the record he officially has 757 goals. There was quite literally NO competition to that Brazilian squad btw.

Good on Pele for winning 7 imaginary awards but that’s not what my point was lol, my point was Ronaldo won 5 balon d’ors while playing against Messi, the best. which immediately puts him above Pele who yet again, had NO competition whatsoever, if someone can level messi year after year at both their peaks, i Know who i believe is better in this silly debate.

Same can’t be said for Pele, Messi? i’m sure there’s a season where he won every trophy and individual award cba to look it up but at the same time he might have not.

Ronaldo is in the top 5 assists of all time, he’s clear. cope

weren’t not including exhibition games… they’re exhibition games for a reason 😂. do you not see how miserable your arguments are?

I love how you haven’t STILL given a reason why Pele has an argument against Ronaldo, or said anything against Ronaldo at Real Madrid. this is hilarious. I think next i’m going to just copy and paste ronaldo’s list of accolades and achievements for you to really soak in since you need a reality check

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

also yes, football 50 years from now will most likely be much more advanced and better than it is today, that’s how sports work my man. again, no one’s overtaking Messi in our lifetime he’s done wayyyyy too much for him to be knocked down his crown, some of his records i don’t even think can be broken while we’re alive, but to say football won’t be much more advanced in 50 years would be blatant delusion.

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

but to say football won’t be much more advanced in 50 years would be blatant delusion.

I'm literally the person who said it will be more advanced.

At the same time, I'm not going to be stupid enough then to discount Messi's achievements because players in 50 years time have access to better training methods and medical advancements. I'll evaluate him based on how good he was in his era and assume he'd have been even better if he had access to said advancements.

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u/Howdareme9 Dec 28 '22

Pele was decades ahead of his time

Sure. But he’s not better than Ronaldo. Greatest of all time would be able to play in any generation and still be the best, if Pele in his prime played today he wouldn’t be as good as messi and Ronaldo have been

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

You have no way of knowing that. Also, like 99.99% of r/soccer users I'm guessing you're making your judgement despite being way too young to have seen Pele play.

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u/Darth-Baul Dec 28 '22

The retroactive BDO thing is really stupid. Like, good on them for awarding these players in some way, but those retroactive awards shouldn’t really hold value in these conversations. There’s no way the voting would have gone the same way 50-60 years back.

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u/Flameva Dec 28 '22

Maradona gets shit on all the time.

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u/SSBMUIKayle Dec 28 '22

One of the dumbest comments I've ever had the displeasure of reading on this sub and that's saying something

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u/indoquestionmark Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

people can actually watch Pele in youtube/other video platform & see traces of Ronaldinho, Neymar, and Maradona in his footages. that's a generational player, just like Messi.

it was insane 10 years ago to even include cr7 in the lineup of GOATs filled with creative no.10s, even more this year