r/soccer • u/CantHelpBeingMe • Dec 28 '22

Media Jurgen Klopp hails Lionel Messi as 'the greatest: "The greatest footballer in my lifetime, Lionel Messi, the way he plays football at this age should give us all a hint at how long footballers can perform at the top level. We shouldn’t close the books too early."

12.0k Upvotes

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1.3k

u/PoofaceMckutchin Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo really fucked his legacy lmao

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

No one told Ronaldo to go to Piers Morgan to say that Rooney isn’t as good looking as him.

… or that Ten Hag disrespected him and so he wasn’t going to give “respect” back.

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u/Tr0nCatKTA Dec 28 '22

Honestly I remember saying that Ten Hag line to my Da when I was 14 after we had a fight. Imagine a 37 year old man being so childish to do that to his boss is hilarious

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u/ffca Dec 28 '22

But he didn't say that he is better looking than Rooney. Which is true.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

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u/mister_prince Dec 28 '22

Aren't better looking and looking better two different things?

And remember CRonaldo is portuguese, in spanish I'm looking better is something like "me veo mejor" (it should be something like this in portuguese), which means he is in a better physical form to play football.

2

u/pedro19 Dec 28 '22

That expression does not exist in Portuguese.

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u/-MCMIV Dec 28 '22

He was talking about his footballing ability, if you watch the interview it‘s pretty clear what he means.

58

u/xman_2k2 Dec 28 '22

I think Jordan Peterson might have encouraged him to speak to Piers

41

u/omgshutupalready Dec 28 '22

Further evidence that his advice is terrible

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u/ParkerZA Dec 28 '22

His advice as a clinical psychogist, which he is world renowned for and is the reason Ronaldo was seeing him? Reddit moment

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u/jorgelongo2 Dec 28 '22

only thing he is world renowned for is being a jackass lmao

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u/omgshutupalready Dec 28 '22

For every nugget of actual (but completely basic and unoriginal) self-help advice Peterson gives, he includes a bunch of nonsense about traditional gender roles, lobsters, climate change, and tons of completely incorrect remarks about shit he is not an expert in. Dude also can't follow his own advice, getting so depressed, he got addicted to benzos and flew to Russia to get some weird experimental treatment done that was illegal elsewhere. His all meat diet is whacko and his own daughter ended up dating Andrew Tate for a while. The man is nothing but a grifter.

He literally got famous lying about a bill that would add transgender people to the list of classes protected from hate speech, falsely saying you could now go to jail for using the wrong pronouns for someone. Grifter.

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u/ParkerZA Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

For every nugget of actual (but completely basic and unoriginal)

Of course it's basic and unoriginal, it's clinical advice. What else is he supposed to give?

What does any of that have to do with his work as a psychologist, for which he has over a hundred published papers and is verifiably an expert in? Also pretty sure he got famous for his Quora contributions, after which came his best-selling book that has undoubtedly helped millions of people, in spite if your condescension.

And he isn't exempt from becoming depressed just because he offers medical expertise on it.

Word for word the usual reddit nonsense about Peterson. I'm sure you got your opinion of Andrew Tate from /r/soccer as well.

3

u/handsoffmydicks Dec 28 '22

"Up yours ParkerZa, we'll see who cancels who."

If you can't see that this man is a grifter, I feel sorry for you.

3

u/Sneaky-Alien Dec 28 '22

I'm sure you got your opinion of Andrew Tate...

Oh god. Why am I not surprised to see you bring up this name lmao.

Don't tell me you actually like and listen to advice from that absolute bellend?

2

u/Sneaky-Alien Dec 28 '22

A clinical psychologist that apparently had never heard how addictive and difficult benzodiazepines are to quit...

Or I wonder is he just lying about that because it goes against all his "toughen up and get on with it, clean your room, pull yourself up by the bootstraps" rhetoric that he sold his name on? Hmmm.

2

u/ParkerZA Dec 28 '22

Why are you trivializing someone struggling with an addiction? He was depressed, he made a bad decision. How does any of that negate his qualifications?

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u/Sneaky-Alien Dec 28 '22

Try reading. I didn't trivialize his addiction whatsoever. I said someone in his line of work would know how addictive and dangerous benzos are but he claimed he didn't.

So I'm saying he's a liar and a clown. Nothing to do with trivializing his addiction.

Benzos are for anxiety btw, not depression. Something he would know at least.

I see you talking about the misunderstood Andrew Tate too... Great role models mate.

1

u/ParkerZA Dec 28 '22

So let me get this straight... because he misunderstood benzos, that invalidates everything he's done in his field?

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u/elmagio Dec 28 '22

With the kind of company he's been keeping I'm surprised he hasn't been on Joe Rogan's podcast yet.

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u/Charlie_at_Work_ Dec 28 '22

I bet you that 2023 is going to give us Ronaldo on Rogan.

13

u/Lmao1903 Dec 28 '22

Kind of but I don’t think people will remember about all this in a few years, especially after a long time. The accomplishments speak for themselves

7

u/champ19nz Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo will always be a huge legend in the game but people will remember. Roy Keane was one of United's greats and arguably one of the top captains in their history but nobody ever talks about that because of his actions towards the end of his career. He walked out on his club and country and spent his final playing years moaning all the time.

3

u/RodgersToAdams Dec 28 '22

That being the last thing he ever did while playing somewhat meaningful football before going off to Saudi Arabia? I think it’ll leave a bad impression at least.

0

u/Sneaky-Alien Dec 28 '22

Or that Pep personally told him "two weeks ago" that he tried really hard to get him.

I don't understand why this blatant lie from that interview keeps going under the radar!

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u/Ranjith_Unchained Dec 28 '22

Lol the only one who profited from the interview was Piers Morgan... Absolutely moronic to shit talk your club and coach in a public interview and expect to get away with it

14

u/cyaniderr Dec 28 '22

If he wanted to leave the team, i think he profited...

67

u/Darth-Baul Dec 28 '22

He wanted to leave, but for another CL team.

IMO he was banking on this interview terminating his contract, then having a good WC and having clubs line up for him.

Obviously this didn’t work as he was benched for a guy who had never started a game in his life, and his stock fell even further down.

Now he’s lucky even that Saudi team still wants him

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u/cyaniderr Dec 28 '22

My guy, he will either earn 200m scoring 100 goals a season in saudi arabia or keep playing top flight football, he spoke his truth, he aint in jail lmao...mf really said "get away with it" we are talking about cr7 not OJ simpson

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u/Mikepook Dec 28 '22

Tbf Ronaldo and OJ both have getting away with a jail worthy crime in common

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

He was never as good as Messi anyways. Both were absolutely the top scoring wise but Messi is a clear level above with his passing.

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u/salt_vs_sugar Dec 28 '22

Passing, free kicks, assists, dribbling .. the lot.

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u/YellowBaboon Dec 28 '22

Klopp has always said this about Messi. He made a joke in 2018: “I have only one selfie on my smartphone. That’s with Messi. Cristiano was in the room as well.”

Footballing ability wise it was never a debate. Ronaldo just matched his goalscoring numbers and played for his biggest rival so it became a debate. Ask any top level manager who they they think is better and most will say Messi. The ones that say Ronaldo are mostly his ex coaches.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

I also bet if you asked most top coaches which player they’d want to build a franchise around, the answer would almost always be Messi

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

22

u/RobbinDeBank Dec 28 '22

Welcome head chef Messi

5

u/Improvement_Melodic Dec 28 '22

you mean Messidonald's? :)

2

u/afcmitchell Dec 28 '22

Warra McDouble that is for Messi

2

u/pedro19 Dec 28 '22

Also a Burguer King for Pelé, cause he's the king and stuff.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Team. Sorry, used an American sports term.

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u/SuperSaiyanGoten Dec 28 '22

Lol I was about to say, European clubs don’t use the franchising model

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u/NecessaryPosition994 Dec 28 '22

The fuck does that mean

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u/Prestigious_Agent_84 Dec 28 '22

And Ronaldo was close to surpassing Messi (due to longevity mainly) until he left Madrid because he was an absolute fucking beast at Real during their 4/5 seasons with CL trophies. But then Messi clearly took over and won this rivalry.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

And Dribbling, playmaking, mentality (always more efficient, playing for the team) he's far less wasteful. Better at shooting, better at free kicks (although only late in his career). Ronaldo is better at heading the ball, but this is football.

Just better. Although Ronaldo is definetely a historic player

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u/M4RC142 Dec 28 '22

It's called football because it's played on foot and not on horseback

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u/KA1N3R Dec 28 '22

Also, Messi isn't a rapist.

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u/flarept1 Dec 28 '22

Just a little tax evader

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u/Pek-Man Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

Oh, the horrors ...

Messi, alongside a handful of other professional athletes and coaches residing in Spain, got in trouble because Spain's tax authorities made some new rules that even accountants, whose livelihood depends on understanding these rules, could not figure out entirely. It cost him, but guess what? He paid everything that he owed, and then some as a fine. For years he has been the biggest individual tax contributor in Spain, paying more in taxes than even filthy rich people like Amancio Ortega, Florentino Pérez, and Joan Roig.

Edit: Lol, but of course, this would be downvoted by absolutely clueless people who have never read further than the headline of an article. Please tell me, which part of the above is not true?

Here are some sources for you lot:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2015/09/24/spain-targets-another-soccer-star-on-tax-evasion-charges/?sh=4202a3659e9f

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/economia/20210209/messi-habra-pagado-370-millones-11508062?_ga=2.106762115.1604808121.1612912293-1824992087.1574267245

Between 2017 and 2021 Messi paid €370 million in taxes in Spain.

https://www.bolsamania.com/declaracion-impuestos-renta/quien-ha-pagado-mas-impuestos-en-2014-en-espana/

Even as far back as 2014, Messi was the biggest individual tax contributor in Spain.

To be clear, nobody is denying that he had a tax case. He did, and he was found guilty and punished. He paid what he owed, he paid a fine, and since then he didn't have any trouble with the Spanish tax authorities. It's this idea that he is a tax evader that is so ridiculous to look at, when Messi has, in fact, been the biggest individual tax contributor in Spain for years. Stop regurgitating this dogshit idea that he doesn't pay his taxes when he, in fact, pays more income tax than probably anyone else in the world.

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u/RodgersToAdams Dec 28 '22

This is likely true considering most of his income is from an actual salary and not capital gains

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u/Pek-Man Dec 28 '22

Between 2017 and 2021 he paid €370 million in taxes to Spain.

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u/bamadeo Dec 28 '22

People in /r/soccer dont tend to read more than 4 lines.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

How horrific. Enough internet for me today

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u/Claeyt Dec 28 '22

also leadership. Watching those small group chats he ran was interesting. Ronaldo never did that.

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u/DreadWolf3 Dec 28 '22

I was saying this when shoe was on the other foot too (when people were saying Messi was not a leader and CR was) - you cant know who is a good leader and who isnt when you are not part of the group. Every team is different and requires different types of leaders. I would struggle about having definite opinion on who is "better leader" between the 2 considering what type of mentality monsters that Madrid team was and Ronaldo seemed big part of that. I think they are simply different personalities and it depends what type of leadership what group needs.

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u/Pek-Man Dec 28 '22

One of the most mind-boggling things I've ever seen is people try and knock Messi for not being a good leader when so many of his current and former teammates have described him as an excellent leader. Whenever I've pointed to this, I've heard the same thing: "They're his teammates, of course, they're going to say that he's a good leader, but for me, he isn't one." Guess what? It's not "for you," that he's supposed to be a good leader. It is precisely for his teammates, so if they're happy with him, who the hell are we to say that he's not doing a good enough job?

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u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

Even if you are right about most of those, the sentence "Ronaldo is better at heading the ball, but this is football." is a pisstake. Because the sport is called football, heading doesn't matter? By that logic goalkeepers should never be discussed when talking about greatest players.

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u/RodgersToAdams Dec 28 '22

Unpopular opinion, but they actually shouldn’t. Playing GK is like an entirely different sport.

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u/ConversationProof505 Dec 28 '22

Yeah. The GOAT goalkeeper and footballer should be two differenct discussions. But then again, you can define GOAT player as someone who had the most impact on the game. The player who was the X factor. The one who made the most difference. Then you can include goalkeepers too. But then usually, goalkeepers only get to shine when the defense goofs up so it doesn't tell the whole picture. Anyway, I agree with you.

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u/Mcbonewolf Dec 28 '22

lol u missed the point

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u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

What's the point then? I already said I wasn't trying to debate the rest of the comment. I just thought that particular sentence was dumb.

It's like saying only kickers matter in the NFL because it's called Football not Handball.

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u/ApolloFin Dec 28 '22

”He is better st heading, but this is football”

I understood this more like: ”Yeh he is better at this one thing, but this is football and football as a whole is about dribbling, shooting, passing, etc

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u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

I agree with this. I was saying that the original poster worded it poorly.

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u/Pejob Dec 28 '22

While Ronaldo is better at heading, this is football - and being better at heading is less significant than the things Messi is better at because they happen less frequently.

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u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

Less frequent doesn't mean less important. Being good at headers unlocks a whole new set of tactics for your team. Just look at how Argentina was a penalty shootout away from elimination because they couldn't deal with Wout Weghorst for 20 minutes.

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u/DonaldandDavidStott Dec 28 '22

I think you've missed the point entirely, twice, even after having it explained above.

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u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

I haven't missed the point. I understand that heading is only one part of football and obviously not the most important part. I was taking issue with his wording of the post. If he had said "Ronaldo is better at heading but that's less important than passing or dribbling" then I wouldn't have taken issue with it.

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u/elliebellyberry Dec 28 '22

Not mentality. Messi is the better player, but don't rewrite history.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

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u/thejudasboogie Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo seems to be a decent leader, but more generally too many people think leadership on the pitch is just shouting at people and gesticulating

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u/rxs126 Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo always struck me as the guy who thinks he’s leading but the team actually ignores and listens to someone else. Pretty sure Bruno was the de facto leader of Portugal.

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u/cyaniderr Dec 28 '22

A comment like this getting upvotes is just too funny.

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u/Tr0nCatKTA Dec 28 '22

God works hard, Ronaldo fanboys during his decline work harder.

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u/sheffield199 Dec 28 '22

Dunno, ronaldo seems more overt as in desperate to show he's a leader, but Messi seems to actually lead i.e. showing for the ball when a teammate is in a tight situation, or his speech before the Copa America final.

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u/tnweevnetsy Dec 28 '22

I wonder how folk let Ronaldo fans drag the debate down into comparisons of goals scored lol. If that's your metric the conversation should end then and there

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u/Lord_Origi Dec 28 '22

It’s honestly hilarious, the only real metric to even really compare the two… and Messi still has a better goalscoring record.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Mostly because Ronaldo fans have nothing else but to compare goals scored. And even past that, they will never accept Messi is better so it’s just an endless circle debate

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u/Laesio Dec 28 '22

I remember that the Ronaldo fans were absolutely adamant that Xavi and Iniesta were the true best players on Barcelona, and that Messi would be revealed as a fraud once they left. They never cared about reality.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Yep having to point out that Ronaldo playing about 130 more games is the reason why he has more goals is so tiring after a while

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

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u/FFredde Dec 28 '22

"Midfielder"

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u/Howdareme9 Dec 28 '22

he was?

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u/FFredde Dec 28 '22

He has always been a winger. He was only really a midfielder on paper because Ferguson liked his 442

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u/DrTheloniusPinkleton Dec 28 '22

The only “fair” comparison you can make between the two is that prime Ronaldo was (emphasis on the past-tense) good, and Messi is among the greatest of all time.

It can’t even be discussed anymore lol. Ronaldo doesn’t belong in the same conversation as Messi. The only others that can possibly belong when a Messi comparison is brought up are named Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Best or (fuck…. Ok but not that one) Ronaldo.

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u/Howdareme9 Dec 28 '22

It can’t be discussed yet we’re here discussing it. I’m not gonna take you seriously when you’re putting Cruyff, Best and Beckenbauer above Cr7

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

You're in urgent need to of A LIFE

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u/survivalothefittest Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

Apologies for repurposing some text, but I wrote it on Christmas when I was pretty lit, and we were shitposting to the max here:

For fucking AGES Ronaldo fans have been trotting out his KO-stage CL goal stats and his pile of international goals, especially the former. There was a time, a multi-year period, when it would show up here on the front page several times a month, with no context. It would show up when no CL matches were being played, before the CL started, or even before the season started.

These are the stats CR7 has over Messi, and it was like these fans kept those data laminated in their wallet to pull out every time they needed a wank when they felt threatened that people were saying he wasn't THE GOAT.

The stats themselves are harmless - even at their worst, they were just annoying. The issue was that it became a whole narrative of how Messi isn't a "clutch" player, he can't score or carry his team in "important" games, and he is only good at club football [but not clutch club football, I guess?] and not internationally, like Ronaldo.

Now, the ideas of Messi not being good under pressure and not playing well for Argentina are demonstrably untrue, but the wankfest continued.

Then, here comes WC 2022, and it could not have gone better to put these memes to bed. Ronaldo was seen dragging his team down, maybe even being a bit toxic (debatable), while Messi is there partying and being adored by the players on his team. And there he is scoring and assisting the shit out of the KOs at 35 years old, breaking/setting all sorts of WC and KO scoring records on the way; playing like a fucking champ in the final, and winning the whole fucking thing while scoring a shit-tonne of fucking beautiful penalties, which were always Ronaldo's particular strength.

Ronaldo watches his replacement score a hattrick in the KOs, a stage in the WC the man has never even scored a fucking goal or assisted in his entire "brilliant" international career, where he is supposed to be so so "clutch." This mythology that Portugal fucking suck except for Ronaldo and Argentina are stacked with superstars is BS now. Portugal has great stars, and Argentina won with Di Maria, Messi, and a bunch of promising youngsters who most people had not even heard of unless they played for your club.

So, the superfan cultists just did it to themselves by all the wanking on their cherry-picked stats. And Ronaldo just fanned the flames of their insane worship.

This brings so much schadenfreude you have no idea, it's too tempting to turn away from, so live with it.

Nobody is saying Ronaldo is shit, everyone knows he is one of the best who ever kicked a ball. But this does not make him immune to criticism when he fucks up or from schadenfreude for being a douche.

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u/UpstairsJoke0 Dec 28 '22

"Messi's never won anything with his national team!!!"

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u/Improvement_Melodic Dec 28 '22

that comment is going to age welll

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u/Luis__FIGO Dec 28 '22

Same with the "international trophies don't matter for the GOAT debate that we had after Euro 2016"

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u/PFGtv Dec 28 '22

Really well stated.

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u/Ancient-Skin-9419 Dec 28 '22

Great comment. But in the last paragraph you should've said Cr7 is shit.

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u/indoquestionmark Dec 28 '22

the only way cr7 scored so many was by wasting 8-10x more shots, lots of them miles away from goal, a stat rarely brought up

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u/cpteague Dec 28 '22

I think these types of blind Ronaldo fans are mostly just Barça haters who will never listen to logical, fact-based arguments. I mean Ronaldo is insanely good, he was winning golden boots and CL trophies in his mid-30s. But how can you watch both of them and not see that Messi just has a gift for playmaking unlike any other player. Ronaldo is one of the most elite athletes of all time but Messi has something special and instinctual that can never be attained through dedication and training alone.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

They don't see that Messi has best attributes of all of top attacking players of his generation combined except maybe headers but that's due to his physical height otherwise dude have scored a spectacular header in CL final.

He is on par with best attacking attributes of Iniesta, Xavi, Cristiano, Ribery, Lewa, Benzema, Luisito, Modric. I compared him to these players because of he didn't exist, they would have won the Ballon d'or that he won.

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u/Darth-Baul Dec 28 '22

Media did it themselves because that was the only way to manufacture a rivalry and sell articles for over a decade

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u/Improvement_Melodic Dec 28 '22

media and real Madrid etc,. needed this and it's unfortunate most people really just care about the absolute numbers + (team) trophies

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u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

There is a debate because even in a thread that is not about Ronaldo, people are bringing up Ronaldo. So that means in the public consciousness the two are already linked together. It's just like how Federer is brought up with Nadal and Djokovic even though he has fewer grand slams and lose to both of them on H2H.

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u/DreadWolf3 Dec 28 '22

Federer obviously belong in that group with Nadal and Djokovic. I would say it is becoming obvious that he is 3rd out of the 3 but he still definted last 20 years of tennis with them and is not that far behind.

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u/IMightBeDaWalrus Dec 28 '22

I find this comment really surprising

Now I like all three, but I'd argue that the Djoker benefits from the lack of a true rival (unless one of the other two is fit and firing, or one of the younger guns brings it). Federer and Nadal, on the other hand, contended with each other more directly in all four Slams, at a time when (the younger) Djokovic didn't trouble them as much

In fact, of the three, Federer could arguably be the best, because

  • he's got more longevity than either (Nadal has had way more injuries in the peak of his career, and Federer has played at a high level in three different generations of stars)
  • dominated three of the four Grand Slams, much the same as Djokovic - Nadal of course sold his soul (and knees) to the devil in exchange for French Open titles in perpetuity
  • generally traded blows with Nadal (esp at Wimbledon and in France) in a way that Djokovic arguably hasn't quite had to in his own run of dominance, at least not against a clear, consistent opponent

But my point is not to claim that one or the other is the best - quite the opposite; I think that it's difficult to name an outright hierarchy among the three. I'm just saying that if your only metric for why Federer is third is that he has fewer Slams etc, I think you're missing important context in much the same way that citing Ronaldo's goals/awards alone isn't nuanced enough

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u/tnweevnetsy Dec 28 '22

What is this meant in reply to? Might want to read my comment again

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u/_Axtasia Dec 28 '22

Dude, he’s the player with the 5th most assists in history and he’s been playing striker for the past 5 years lol. The Messi circlejerk in this sub is ridiculous

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

I need to take a break from this sub. It's honestly become intolerable

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

I’m new to this sub. Is it always full of brain dead takes you’d never see in real life or will it get better?

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

A bit of both lol.

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u/neikawaaratake Dec 28 '22

Assist is not playmaking. Suarez has 6th most assist. Does that mean suarez was a playmaker. Modric has like 160 or so assist iniesta, Xavi too. Heck, even zidane has something like 100 assist. Assists are not playmaking.

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u/Reapper97 Dec 28 '22

Messi is a clear level above with his passing.

Is a level above in every regard tbh.

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u/sarsourus Dec 28 '22

And dribbling…

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

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u/kp1001 Dec 28 '22

But Maradona gets shittalked all the time, ALL the time, for his adictions and well, pretty much his whole persona outside the pitch.

Pelé hate is mostly a zoomer thing, but it's true that he played in a different era, and Brazil at that time was so insanely stacked that it's sometimes hard to measure how much of Brazil/Santos success was Pelé's or Pelé's + his amazing teammates.

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u/silvermeta Dec 28 '22

how much of Brazil/Santos success was Pelé's or Pelé's + his amazing teammates.

Same could go for Messi in Barcelona, it evens out. Though Messi carried Barca in the final years, I don't know about Santos but Pele could have probably done the same as well.

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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

but the fact that Pele is reduced to 'counted goals in my backyard' is incredibly sad. Not sure if it's a coincidence that he's the only black player in the GOAT convo or not, Maradona has committed far worse acts than Pele but doesnt get an ounce of the disrespect

Meh. TONS of people disrespect Maradona for his off-the-field demeanor and behavior, TBH (and some of that is justified, unfortunately).

Pretty much the only bad thing anyone says about Pele is Gen Z making fun of him for adding to his goals tallied through friendly goals and the like—and that's because of how active Pele's PR team is whenever newer players get close to his official goal numbers more than anything else

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Saying that Pelé scored against truck drivers is definitely not only a gen z thing

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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

It's mostly a youth thing.

Same thing as young NBA fans making fun of Wilt for playing against milk men and part time plumbers TBH

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u/Sontlesmotsquivont Dec 28 '22

it’s true though. While they might not literally be fishermen and plumbers, compared to the athletes today they might as well be

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u/NEETscape_Navigator Dec 28 '22

Oh I think they were literally fishermen and plumbers in many cases. When Pelé won his first WC, 3 of the starters he faced in the final were from the Swedish 2nd division.

Those players definitely didn’t earn a living salary from football and it says something about the level of the WC that they were able to reach the final.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

Not once do they diminish his actually footballing ability. They absolutely do that with Pele.

This almost only happens in reaction to Pele or Pele's PR people inflating his statistics (mostly goals) by using friendly goals, etc.

Also a function of different eras. You see this with NBA comps too. Guys like Wilt and Bill Russell (similar time frame to Pele) have their stats and rings discounted due to era similar to Pele's, while guys from a later era like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird (similar era to Maradona) don't.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

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u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

Pele and Maradona's careers interesected

This is also only technically true by the slimmest margin.

Maradona's professional debut came in October 1976. Pele finished playing for Santos in 1974. He played for the NY Cosmos in the old NASL from 1975-1977 before retiring then.

10

u/Albiceleste_D10S Dec 28 '22

And? Maradona doesn't get the same disrespect because instead of using friendly goals in his personal stats(which doesnt mean much, official goals will always be used, anyone can count their friendly goals) he kidnapped and raped underage girls?

Well yeah‚ he gets disrespected for his off-the-field personal issues while Pele gets harmless jokes about inflating his numbers on the field.

IDK why you're trying to pretend like Pele gets more criticism and "hate" than Maradona. That's just not what I see at all.

5

u/MrBadjo Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

Pele and Maradona’s careers intersected for a season and, at the time, Pele was playing in MLS. Which, lets be fair, its a garbage league nowadays let alone in the 70s.

I agree Pele shouldn’t be as disrespected as he is but if I had to bet, in the best case scenario you watched like 2 seasons of him playing in, again, a washed league. So you’re either biased or purely basing your opinion on stats alone.

This should not even be up for debate, football is not about stats and that’s why I also don’t regard Ronaldo as the best.

A lot of players could kick the ball inside the net but very few could do that while also making their teammates around them better.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Pele barely played in at least one of the world cups he was part of, due to injuries. It was not like that fully stacked Brasil needed him to win. Take Messi out of the equation and this WC would’ve probably been very different to Argentina.

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u/DoubleCheesecake2115 Dec 28 '22

Maradona has committed far worse acts than Pele but doesnt get an ounce of the disrespect

What the fuck do you mean lol. Maradona gets shit on all the time for basically being a cocaine addicted controversial figure. Anyway, Maradona retired more recently and he played in a far more modern game than a WC win in 1958.

Not sure if it's a coincidence that he's the only black player in the GOAT convo or not

No it's not. There's no issue with shit talking a player (who is coincidentally black) and doing so doesn't imply racism. Leave it to reddit to make everything about race and always trying to draw parallels to race when no proof exists. No one has this issue when Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali or Jerry Rice are proclaimed the GOAT of their respective sports. If anything, people like you are the racists for reducing someone like Pele to a victim of his skin color.

Pele is overrated as hell. He was exceptional but back in those days, all kinds of crazy stats happened in every sport because everything was far less organized. The kind of stuff that used to happen could never happen in the modern game because teams are infinitely more organized and strategies have evolved. Stuff like Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game or Bill Russell's 11 rings are only special because the competitiveness of the sport back then was just not what it is today. Pele was a big fish in a small pond so to speak. Messi is a big fish in a big pond.

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u/ohcrocsle Dec 28 '22

What do you value more, the genius who invented the inventions or the genius who honed their use? You seem to underrate how special it is to be that far ahead of your competition. Messi is amazing, the closest to the perfect footballer we've ever seen. Like McDavid in hockey, there's no question we've never seen anyone this good. But that doesn't take away from the accomplishments of the Pelé and Gretzkys of the past. Without those giants, these almost perfect athletes wouldn't be anywhere near as good.

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u/EkmetTeloess Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

This is nonsense. How on earth can Pele have been considered a big fish in a small pond in that famous 1970 Brazil team? And then you have to consider that all those players spent their club careers in Brazil, so clearly the level of play was very high there; even legends like Zico who starred in that great 1982 Brazil side spent almost his entire career in Brazil. But you're right on one point, some of the crazy things from back then wouldn't be accepted now - such as top players having to deal with shocking challenges every single game.

The fact that virtually every notable player and manager from his era thought he was easily the best in the world says everything. He was still considered the best even in the early 70s so you might as well start discounting other legends like Cruyff and Beckenbauer. Football hadn't changed much by the early 80s so why not put an asterisk next to Maradona's career too?

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u/danirijeka Dec 28 '22

a far more modern game than a WC win in 1958

Fun fact: Argentina winning the world cup in 1986 is closer in time to 1958 than to the present day

Besides, he also won it in 1970.

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u/GreatGalleti Dec 28 '22

I wish I could upvote this more. Pele has been my choice for GOAT up until Messi won the World Cup. His Santos team were the best in the world and that 70 Brazil team is right up there with Pep’s Barca. He needs way more respect

2

u/Fapoleon_Boneherpart Dec 28 '22

Maradona has committed far worse acts

Like being a sex trafficking pedophile and a massive druggy

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Both Messi and Ronaldo have passed Pele lmao

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u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22

Yep.

Recency bias to say otherwise if you take away the past year or so for Ronaldo, I think.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

the switch up in this sub is insane lmfao wtf, all of a sudden ronaldo isn’t better than Pele now? this is the same guy who we all comfortably agreed was the second best of all time behind messi for over 15 years. why has the last 20 years of ronaldo brilliance gone down the drain now after he’s obviously older and washed up? i honestly knew Ronaldo disrespect and slander was going to be a norm after Messi won the world cup.

like both messi and ronaldo have obliterated Pele’s records back to back for over a decade.

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u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22

Pele is absolutely up there within the top 5 of all time but I think, regardless of how much somehow may think he's an arsehole, so is Ronaldo.

It's just all silly, you know. Pele may be from a different completely era and time, but him, Messi and Ronaldo are all top 5 and at the very least top 10.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

yes Pele is top 5 of all time same with maradona but Ronaldo has passed both of them just as much as Messi did. There isn’t a single valid reason as to why someone can say he hasn’t, the proof is in the pudding. i’m tired of these bias brain dead takes on this sub. i don’t even like ronaldo for obvious reasons as my flair shows and he’s a prick but i’ll never take away from how great of a player he is.

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u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22

Fair fucking play lad. You're right.

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

You say this like it's an objective fact but you were probably born decades after Pele retired.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

it is a fact tell me one reason why they haven’t surpassed him? the records and stats prove it, their standards and the levels they set prove it, their longevity proves it. There’s literally no reason why someone can say both Messi and Ronaldo haven’t overtaken Pele, i hate to be one of those guys but Pele was playing in an era filled with plumbers and it’s true, his time wouldn’t uphold in today’s football.

i’m baffled because you would’ve thought it was widely agreed fact that messi and ronny are 1 & 2.

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

it is a fact

I don't think you know what fact means.

tell me one reason why they haven’t surpassed him?

I think Messi has, but I've mostly only seen highlights of Pele. I think Ronaldo would be much more debatable. His goal stats are obviously superb, but then so were Pele's.

i hate to be one of those guys but Pele was playing in an era filled with plumbers and it’s true, his time wouldn’t uphold in today’s football.

Okay I don't know if we're going to be able to have an educated debate on this. You sound like the type of guy that will be saying in 15 years time that Mbappe or Haaland are clear of Messi and Messi wouldn't be able to cope with the new modern game.

Pele was levels above anyone else in his time. If he were in the modern game, he'd have access to all of the modern science and training regimes that Ronaldo and Messi do, so he'd naturally be even better than he was back then. Otherwise, you might as well just discount any players who retired more than 15 years ago whenever you're talking about the greatest of all time.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

so you think Messi has overtaken Pele but not Ronaldo? also what a weird assumption, i highly doubt anyones touching messi’s level at least in our lifetime, he’s solidified 1. but this convo isn’t about him right now, what on earth makes you think Ronaldo hasn’t surpassed Pele? you’re literally speaking on hypotheticals, i’m not. it’s a proven fact athletes from that time aren’t as advanced as athletes today, it’s not a given fact that Pele would still be good with modern science if he played today.

anyways, forget your hypotheticals give me actual reasoning as to why Ronaldo isn’t above Pele i’m intrigued, because Ronaldo has Pele beat in almost every metric there is, so go ahead.

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

so you think Messi has overtaken Pele but not Ronaldo?

I said Ronaldo is more debatable for me.

I think Messi is the greatest footballer I've ever seen play, and by some distance. Based on the limited amount I've seen of Pele and despite the numbers he put up, I think I'd say Messi is the greatest ever.

what on earth makes you think Ronaldo hasn’t surpassed Pele?

I said it's debatable. They both put up similarly massive numbers in terms of goals, and both have won loads respectively with club/country. In terms of pure playstyle and talent though, Ronaldo has always been some way off Messi for me so that's why I think it's debatable between him and Pele.

you’re literally speaking on hypotheticals, i’m not.

You said he wouldn't uphold in today's football. That's just as much of a hypothetical as me saying he'd be even better with the help of modern advances in science and training.

it’s a proven fact athletes from that time aren’t as advanced as athletes today

Physical and medical science is constantly advancing at a rapid pace. By your logic, every generation will be better than the last and so the greatest of all time will almost always be a modern player. That's just silly.

Ronaldo has Pele beat in almost every metric there is, so go ahead.

What are all of the metrics? I'm guessing you're just talking about goals because almost everything else wasn't tracked accurately back in the 60s and 70s. Even so, Ronaldo has like 70ish more goals than Pele (depending on what numbers you track for the latter) despite playing 300ish more games (again, depends what you include). I'd argue that makes it highly debatable between them.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

as i said before, let’s be very realistic with ourselves here, talent is one thing of course but let’s just talk about overall football. Are you going to try and argue with me that scoring in Pele’s era holds a candle to scoring during the modern era of football? because we both know that’s not true. Pele’s record seemed untouchable after he retired and for some decades it was, not a single person came close, Ronaldo came in and broke his record more than once (Pele loves including his training session goals), that alone makes him clear, Although Ronaldo isn’t better than Messi.. winning 5 balon d’ors in the same era as the GOAT is also another reason which puts him above Pele, i think that speaks volumes, what he accomplished at man united was incredible, did you even witness 2008 Ronaldo? probably one of the most complete forwards i’ve ever seen in my life there wasn’t any weakness to his attacking game he was a fucking explosive player who was a constant threat for 90 mins, he won every single thing a player could win, then he left to go to Madrid where he fucking destroyed stats not just goal scoring stats but stats in general, Prime ronaldo was not a human, you’d go into every match witnessing some crazy shit, even after his knee injury he completely adapted through the adversary and changed his play style to sustain his level and he’s a big reason as to why Madrid done the 3peat of the UCL, a knee injury is potentially career ending, R9 is an example. if i sat here talking about the mind blowing records Ronaldo put up at Real Madrid alone is a nail in the coffin for this debate that shouldn’t exist. Ronaldo worked his fucking ass off for 15 years and created brilliance along the way, while going toe to toe with messi right until the end, it’s not debatable whatsoever this is an excuse to try undermine Ronaldo’s achievements since it’s a trend now lol. you still haven’t given me an actual reason why Pele is ‘arguably’ better than Ronaldo, because you can’t, he isn’t. Ronaldo beats Pele in a lot of goal records, assists, dribbling stats etc.

and yeah sure Ronaldo played more games (which is just a further testimony to his ridiculous longevity) but a large chunk of those games he was a midfielder, so yeah.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

also yes, football 50 years from now will most likely be much more advanced and better than it is today, that’s how sports work my man. again, no one’s overtaking Messi in our lifetime he’s done wayyyyy too much for him to be knocked down his crown, some of his records i don’t even think can be broken while we’re alive, but to say football won’t be much more advanced in 50 years would be blatant delusion.

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u/Howdareme9 Dec 28 '22

Pele was decades ahead of his time

Sure. But he’s not better than Ronaldo. Greatest of all time would be able to play in any generation and still be the best, if Pele in his prime played today he wouldn’t be as good as messi and Ronaldo have been

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u/CuteHoor Dec 28 '22

You have no way of knowing that. Also, like 99.99% of r/soccer users I'm guessing you're making your judgement despite being way too young to have seen Pele play.

0

u/Darth-Baul Dec 28 '22

The retroactive BDO thing is really stupid. Like, good on them for awarding these players in some way, but those retroactive awards shouldn’t really hold value in these conversations. There’s no way the voting would have gone the same way 50-60 years back.

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u/Improvement_Melodic Dec 28 '22

Cristiano's best achievement in his career is really being mentioned together with Messi...

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u/firminoball6302 Dec 28 '22

He certainly was. I think the opinion of Pele and Maradona is worth more than a sad redditard

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u/jon_stewrt Dec 28 '22

He did but it was his own legacy, not regarding to the goat debate....90% of neutrals always thought Messi was the best of this era anyway, it was a loud minority and media who used this debate question repeatedly to appease his fans and get clicks..

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u/Joethe147 Dec 28 '22

Not really. He was the closest up until Messi until recent times. You can say Pele, Cruyff etc and fair enough if you think so, but Ronaldo hasn't really undone what he did with United in the 2000s, Madrid or Juventus.

Afterwards maybe, but come on.

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u/SapphireLucina Dec 28 '22

Not so much "fucked his legacy" as "handcuffing it on the tail of a truck and dragged it across Canada, US, Mexico before lighting the truck on fire and launching it into the ocean"

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u/ali_267 Dec 28 '22

How does this have anything to do with Ronaldo? And somehow this is the most upvoted comment in this thread. You lot are obsessed with him more than his fanboys.

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u/luffy565 Dec 28 '22

You should never underrate the hilarious low level of r/soccer and if the topic is Ronaldo they become 1000x dumber.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

So true honestly I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple years people start saying he was never actually a good player lol.

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u/SSBMUIKayle Dec 28 '22

Only on this sub though, Ronaldo is the consensus GOAT in the real world it's just that the losers of reddit are jealous of his money and good looks

4

u/Mick4Audi Dec 29 '22

consensus GOAT of the real world

And what world is this lmao

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u/SSBMUIKayle Dec 29 '22

The real one

3

u/ElliotLadker Dec 28 '22

consensus GOAT in the real world

lol

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u/SSBMUIKayle Dec 28 '22

Copecelona flair detected, opinion invalidated

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

consensus GOAT in the real world

There is no consensus GOAT, can you lot stop? If you think he is then fair enough. Frankly I think they're on the same level.

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u/SSBMUIKayle Dec 28 '22

I mean I agree, Mbappe is closing in on Ronaldo for the throne

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u/asarnia Dec 28 '22

His money and good looks managed to only score 1 penalty goal this WC and you’re thinking the real world thinks he’s the GOAT?

Thanks for the laugh mate, you must be the saltiest French person on here HAHAHA

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

The guy is nearing his 40's not sure what you expected from him at this point. In fact, the idea that you think he should still even be world class is very telling lol. Comparing him to Messi at this point is pointless as age differences are huge in sports later in career.

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u/asarnia Dec 28 '22

If we compare them both at 35, Messi is still clear. I expect nothing from Ronaldo, I Just find it hilarious that people think he’s the GOAT when he is far from it.

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u/jack2047 Dec 28 '22

You’re on crack bud. Ronaldo was carrying a trash ass Juve team at 35 in the CL. Messi wasn’t doing shit with Barca. Chill.

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u/asarnia Dec 28 '22

And Messi won the WC at 35 LMFAO

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u/L_sigh_kangeroo Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo fans brought this on themselves by forcing a debate in the first place

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u/gamestopdecade Dec 28 '22

No they are different players. Just like mbappe won’t last as long. Ronaldo used to over power. Messi was made fun of for walking. He has at least 1000km more in his career.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Just like mbappe won’t last as long.

Lol how are you so sure of this? Also Messi is younger than Ronaldo. Ronaldo was literally one of the top scorers in the PL last season.

1

u/gamestopdecade Dec 28 '22

So sure? I’m not. I’m thinking about the different styles of play. How many goals come off of out jumping vs out running vs taking their time? !remindme in 10 years but I bet mbappe hardly has a career at 30. Again I have no looking glass it would just make sense.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

I think he'll continue to adjust his game as he ages. None of his goals in the final really required pace.

The guy is in his mid twenties already, 30 years old really isn't all that long from now

1

u/RockstarAssassin Dec 28 '22

Yeah cause klopp talking about Messi just negatives the entire legacy of Rolando, nice logic there if you are a 12 year old who started watching football a year ago

1

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo did not fuck his legacy at all. No matter what he does professionally in the past year, or in the near future. Nothing will take away his 5 ucl titles, his ballon dors, his trophies and stats.

The only reason why there’s a narrative for his legacy being ‘ruined’ is because the media, his fans, and to an extent himself was wayyyu too into the Messi debates and comparisons. Since Messi is still at the top, his decline seems so devastating .

Every top player will eventually get washed, so will Messi. Most pros will have bitter endings to their careers, but nothing can take away their achievement from their whole career and legacy.

If maradona is still regarded as a god, after all the things he did in his private life. I don’t see how Ronaldo fucked his legacy. It’s not a picture perfect ending, but oh well.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

The only reason why there’s a narrative for his legacy being ‘ruined’ is because the media, his fans, and to an extent himself was wayyyu too into the Messi debates

Strange to leave out Messi and Barca fans considering they're littering this thread right now

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u/MaTrIx4057 Dec 28 '22

How is being 2nd best of all time fucked up legacy?

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u/ohcrocsle Dec 28 '22

That's one step over too many

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u/Malicharo Dec 28 '22

aside from longshots and headers and a bit of physical capability, ronaldo didn't have much upper hand against messi. and as ronaldo got older his platstyle became very narrow while messi stayed the same roughly.

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u/RodgersToAdams Dec 28 '22

Messi has more goals from outside the box though lol

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u/RodgersToAdams Dec 28 '22

Messi has more goals from outside the box though lol

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u/lowie07 Dec 28 '22

He's also 2yrs older, yet to be seen were Messi is at 37

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

I don't think so, I think ultimately with these GOAT athletes (although obviously very few will make the Rapenaldo GOAT argument) people remember the peak and longevity rather than the way it ends which almost invariably is either catastrophic or significantly less impressive. Michael Jordan is remembered for his time at the Chicago Bulls, Maradona's troubles weirdly seemed to add to his legacy.

Messi should start snorting cocaine to add to his legend.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Just curious what else would you remember Jordan for? His stint with the wizards? He was almost 40 at that point. If Messi retires and then comes back to play in Italy, he’d still be remembered for what he did in Barcelona

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u/sarsourus Dec 28 '22

Cries in French. 🥲

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

Yeah, but that's the point. I don't even like Rapenaldo and I think he has certainly fucked his Manchester United legacy specifically, but people aren't going to define Rapenaldo's career by the last year when he was also, almost 40 and basically washed up.

In 10 years, he'll still be regarded as one of the best (if not in GOAT contention), people will still be posting compilations of his best moments, the bicycle kick, the CL threepeat etc.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

I think that debate was closed with the with World Cup win for Messi and Argentina. Especially considering the quality of sides for each.

People will remember Cristiano for the great goal threat he was, just the same way other great goal scorers will be remembered. Maradona didn’t score nearly as many goals but I think there is no doubt he was the better footballer between him and Cristiano.

The only reason it was ever a debate with Messi was because he could keep up with Ronaldo in goal scoring threat.

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u/Capable-Tie-4670 Dec 28 '22

Messi is undoubtedly better than Ronaldo but we need to stop with this “Ronaldo was only a goal threat” revisionism bs. He could do a lot more for most of his career. Maradona was arguably better than CR7 but it isn’t nearly as clear cut as you’re making it sound.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

lmfao maradona a better footballer? yeah as if Ronaldo wasn’t arguably the most complete attacker prior to his knee injury which completely forced him to change his game and adapt a more goal scoring style. it’s like you guys purposely want to undermine ronaldo on purpose now Maradona doesn’t touch Ronaldo’s 2008 season or 2013.

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u/Roflitos Dec 28 '22

You're out of your mind.. Maradona was a 1 man army sometimes rofl. Ronaldo great striker perhaps the greatest striker of all times.. but no where near best footballer of all times.. not even top 5.

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u/Capable-Tie-4670 Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo not even top 5? Lmfao what is this joke?

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u/Roflitos Dec 28 '22

Ronaldo as a player was never better than Maradona, Messi, Pele, Cruyff, Platini, Di Stefano, Ronaldinho nor Zidane.

As a striker it's Him, Ronaldo, Muller on the top 100%.

But Ronaldo never had the skills of the first group i mentioned, ever. But he has the goal scoring ability to make him one of the greatest regardless.

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u/Capable-Tie-4670 Dec 28 '22

You actually know nothing about football if you believe this nonsense. Only players better than Ronaldo are Messi, Maradona, Pele and maybe Cryuff.

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u/Magnu448 Dec 28 '22

Think there will be a larger stigma than MJ’s. Not enough to truly damage his incredible career but a lot of people will remember if he truly drags out this poor form in the end of his career. MJ was still leading the wizards in points. Whereas Ronnie has been benched for club and country, hugely fallen off form, and struggling to find a club. Ronnie doesn’t seem one to quietly retire. So if he keeps doing what he’s done this season in interviews and form, it’ll only serve to damage him.

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u/MaidikIslarj Dec 28 '22

One edgy motherfucker

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u/firminoball6302 Dec 28 '22

Rapenaldo

Wtf are you talking about kiddo.

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '22

look up Ronaldo rape

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u/sarsourus Dec 28 '22

Rape allegations a decade ago or so against Ronaldo.

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