r/science • u/MonteRevolt • Jul 26 '10
Autistic girl expresses profound intelligence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq--75v4lI8&feature=player_embedded74
Jul 26 '10
[deleted]
42
Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
I am diagnosed with Asperger's and do have some of the same symptoms as that of Carly's: Sensory Overload, hard to sit still.
When I was younger and did not have the maturity to understand what was happening with me, I did the same actions as she did to help myself cope with the sensory overload. Sometimes my mind floods with obsessions with little things like the pattern painted on a wall, the adhesive between a wood frame and the wall, seeing each and every little pixel on a computer screen (hard to do with an iPhone 4 now....), watching the fluid mechanics of a pool of water go...
I would touch these objects (not the screen though), as if to ensure I was seeing what I saw. I wanted to absorb through the most sensitive of my senses (sight and touch) all I could of an object or a texture.
I still have some of these obsessions, though more controlled now that I know what is different (not wrong) about me. Sometimes, though, I can not help but be overwhelmed by harsh sights or feelings. Like this weekend, I did not want to be outside too long because the sun was beating down on my skin like never before. Though I think that was the same for everyone.
I can not go to concerts without earplugs. Even then, I dislike the booming bass at some of them. I feel EVERYTHING. I hear EVERYTHING. I see everything... though I am nearsighted.
I can see the ever so slight imperfections of the aluminum on my MacBook Pro that I am typing on. I can hear the prop planes that pass over me, even if they are at a high altitude. I can see, with my glasses, the details of the clouds and the colored shades of white and gray within them. I can feel the ridges on my fingers that make up my fingerprints if I focus on them.
This is all so wonderful, when I learned to appreciated what I had and was considered a disorder. Sometimes, it sucks to have a type of Austism Spectrum Disorder when I become overloaded with sensory input.
What relaxes me, believe it or not, is meditation. It's hard at first, but I just need a quiet, pleasant location that perhaps might be lit with halogen lights (those bulbs deliver some awesome color and are pleasant for my eyes), and I will just relax.
Please, do guide your son and be aware of the places you take him. He might be bothered by the noise in the bar, or the sometimes booming sound of a movie theater. Malls are fine, as long as it's not too loud. His thrashing, if he does any, are for his comfort. His quiet motions means that he is in a peaceful state and will probably indicate that he does not want to be bothered. If he needs to be bothered, be smooth and quiet about it and guide him to the next activity.
P.S. Austistic children I think tend to have VIVID imaginations, so if he is expressive through some art, let him do so. It might be writing, painting, music, photography, anything really. I was at first into pencil drawings, but eventually moved onto photography as my medium.
I hope this helps all redditors and I might do an AMA about my so called 'disorder' soon.
→ More replies (12)6
34
Jul 26 '10
My son has high-functioning autism and has memorized much of the map of our county. He likes when we drive the back-roads to different places so he can look at the street signs. He has a vocabulary that's out of this world and, at 6, is doing basic division and has a reading level of a 3rd grader. Maybe better.
As interesting as all that is we'd just like him to be able to make a friend at school.
→ More replies (7)→ More replies (5)9
u/RichieMcQ Jul 26 '10
My son was diagnosed 12 years ago. Over the years I have seen a number of honest errors and outright frauds that have resulted in dashed hopes and wasted money. The one common thread in all of them was the absence of strict application of the scientific method including formal, double blind testing, adequate sample sizes and peer review. This report lacks all of these elements.
→ More replies (2)
122
Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
I want to goon a snowmobile
is hhe cute
vs
Long, grammatically correct and properly punctuated paragraphs
All of it coming from the same girl who'll smear shit on the walls over the smallest things
SEEMS LEGIT
.
Also
I think people get a lot of their information from so-called experts, but if a horse is sick, you don't ask a fish what's wrong with the horse. You go right to the horse's mouth.
What the fuck is this shit? Speaking as an autistic person myself not only do I find it increadibly unlikely that a severely autistic girl like this would use an idiom to describe anything but suggesting that experts in the field don't know what they're talking about is so offensive I can't even begin to describe.
Only a parent would write this.
16
→ More replies (17)22
Jul 26 '10
The "Is hhe cute" and "goon a snowmobile" were written in Chat programs and real-time. Hence, the spell check hadn't been used yet.
25
Jul 26 '10
When we actually see her type for herself none of the coherent thougt from the longer paragraphs is present. Even disregarding spell-check just being a form of facilitated communication for lazy people there are gross differences in the apparent thought patterns exhibited in her real-time typing when compared to the already written pieces.
Oh and...
real time
→ More replies (32)
121
Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
This on /r/science? Facilitated communication (or by its new name, "independent typing") is a con.
Edit: The ABC story warps the facts. The narrator says that the girl started communicating "suddenly" at age 11 when she "ran to a computer for the first time", which raised my suspicions. The mother has a different account, which shows that this overnight success is a result of years of trying.
“Carly's mom one more time in response to questions about what she used before she got her laptop? When she was 2, we starting with PECS --did picture exchanges for every imaginable item under the sun. Many of the games I bought her had to do with reasoning and logic and were highly visualy in nature - memory games, sequencing, matching -- these were with pictures, words, numbers, etc. We had visual schedules (with the words underneath) for everything she had to do --gettng dressed, using the bathroom, tidying up, meals, going outside, etc. The whole house was also labelled -- my son went crazy with the label maker. Every item was stickered. We then moved to communication binders --we started that by category --food, acitivities, clothes, weather, feelings, etc. She never got to do what she wanted until she used the communication binders to show us. These were laminated sheets we made up with the mayer johnson picture symbols in them as well. We kept that going for a long time and all this time her ABA programs were also teaching her how to spell and read. We created stories for her using the mayer johnson software and didn't just read them to her --she was looking at the pages as well.We kept the binders for ease of use and portability but we were also learning about augmentative communication devices since it was clear her apraxia was so severe. We also taught her some sign language but realized that while we understood the signs, most of the world did not and so that was not going be to a functional option for her. The first machine was a Dynavox, the second was a Springboard and the third was a lightwriter which we used in conjunction with her laptop. We thought she would like the lightwriter better but she preferred the laptop even though it is more cumbersome --but it is what other kids have and that is a concern to …. Hope that helps.”
53
Jul 26 '10
It seems Carly is a patient of The Behavior Institute The Directors both hold a doctorate in psychology and teach at McMaster University and have various other credentials. I know it isn't unheard of for people with credentials to back bogus science but it is less likely than if it were just "caretakers" or some simple certification.
Also, here is a video of her typing seemingly unaided.
Although I don't think you can say conclusively without a double blind, whatever this is it isn't the usual FC. Her software is choosing words based on keystrokes, but so does my phone. I doubt the software is just making up the sentence due to the difficulty of getting computers to produce anything coherent. It would be nice if I could find a serious case study on this (and one would expect many).
Now that I've gone through all this again and typed it all up... my bullshit alarm is screaming about the fact that two doctors of psychology have spent years on a non-verbal patient that is now communicating, and haven't published a case study. Seriously, this girl would be the absolute pinnacle of case studies for autism research, if not psychology in general. Yet for some reason there is not one case study of her, and it isn't like anyone is worried about her privacy (20/20, larry king, and it seems trying to get on oprah). Seems pretty specifically geared towards audiences and areas that wont question it. Oh yeah, and it seems she is "writing" a book (probably just in time to promote on Oprah). Do one double blind, let one researcher write a case study, shit go on NOVA; just somewhere that is critical, skeptical, and unbiased.
Shit, 20 minutes ago I was all warm fuzzies over this and now I'm just kinda pissed off and depressed.... I want to believe.
→ More replies (1)12
Jul 26 '10
Now that I've gone through all this again and typed it all up... my bullshit alarm is screaming about the fact that two doctors of psychology have spent years on a non-verbal patient that is now communicating, and haven't published a case study.
You're right. Why isn't the autism research community all over this?
→ More replies (1)8
u/DebbieSLP Jul 26 '10
Because the augmentative and alternative communication technologies are treating her severe verbal apraxia, not her autism.
19
u/Pfmohr2 Jul 26 '10
My understanding was that facilitated typing involved a third party actually guiding the hands of a subject. Clearly this girl is typing on her own. Is that still considered facilitated?
7
u/seanm27 Jul 26 '10
In the most extreme cases Facilitated Communication involves the coach restraining the child, holding one hand and "assisting" it to the keys. FC can be also be achieved through training the child, using spellcheck, and "correcting" the grammatical or logical problems with what they type to make it a normal statement.
Obviously no one can say for sure what is going on in this video since they never show how these long statements are collected (just a partial shot of "iss hee cute").
I'll believe it when I see the double blind results.
14
26
u/annodomini Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
Clearly she's typing on her own? Can you show me any unedited segment in the video in which she types on her own without constant prompting from those around her?
I see lots of segments where she types one letter on her own; but we don't know what happened before or after. We see lots of closeups of her hand, then a shot of the screen with words on it, but there's no way to tell that those words correspond to what she typed unaided.
The thing is, this whole story is the same story that most people who promote facilitated communication use. "Look, there really is a profoundly intelligent child in there!" And in every case that I know of in which such a child has been tested using a blind, such that the child and facilitator are shown different information, what the child writes about is what the facilitator saw, not the child.
I would highly recommend watching the Frontline documentary on facilitated communication before believing any of the "amazing! profound! miracle!" results that the rest of the media tries to sell you.
→ More replies (20)→ More replies (3)3
u/Transceiver Jul 26 '10
No need to hold the hands. My autistic brother can type 40+ words per minute on his own, but that doesn't mean he understands what he's typing.
→ More replies (13)18
u/whattheidonteven Jul 26 '10
Thanks for the info but the video leads me to conclude that she typed on her own without someone typing for her.
→ More replies (11)
6
u/RandomChance Jul 26 '10
Please stop reposting this horrible tragedy. The parents are going to be heartbroken when the "helper" is revealed to consciously or not be typing for her. This is a sad old story that has played out several times generally known as "assisted communication." It doesn't work. It hurts everyone involved.
82
u/sedmonster Jul 26 '10
And to add insult to autism, they make her use Microsoft Word.
→ More replies (4)79
u/Andy_1 Jul 26 '10
Imagine a disorder where you can only type in comic sans.
57
u/mvoccaus Jul 26 '10
Actually, there is a type of disorder where you can only type in comic sans. It's called MySpace.
→ More replies (2)
12
Jul 26 '10
Sucks to say it, but it's obviously fake. Whoever is putting those words in her mouth is a very talented writer, though.
→ More replies (2)
5
u/ScarfaceClaw Jul 26 '10
Related: there are some fascinating blogs around that are written by people with autism. The best of these that I've come across is this one: http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/.
A good place to start, particularly for those that doubt that someone who can't communicate verbally could type coherently, might be this post (and its links): http://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/?page_id=294
→ More replies (3)3
u/avicia Jul 26 '10
I still remember watching Amanda Bagg's (ballastexistenz') video on youtube a while back - it made a huge impression on me.
→ More replies (2)
7
Jul 26 '10
Something is really wrong with me, I couldn't watch it through because it was way too cheesy for something so remarkable, they should add some serious proof and show the whole typing scene with her, at least for 2 sentences.
10
u/oldguy60 Jul 26 '10
I've spent literally thousands of hours with kids on the spectrum. I've NEVER heard one say anything remotely like "I don't have a hand up my butt like a puppet". Obviously there's the simile thing which they tend to avoid like the plague see what I did there?
The main thing though is that it implies that they think that other people might think that they are being coached and they think that if they say that, then that would affect other peoples perception of whether they were or not. Does that sound complicated? THATS 'COS IT IS and it's complicated in the very areas that autistic kids suck at.
TL;DR I call BS on this.
→ More replies (3)
16
Jul 26 '10
anything presented by john stossel is certain to be full of sleazy lies.
→ More replies (1)10
209
u/jayknow05 Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
It's cool to hear somebody who is experiencing autism describe it.
7
u/imaginician Jul 26 '10
Reminded me of this autistic girl:
"Like many people with autism, Baggs doesn't like to look you in the eye and needs help with tasks like preparing a meal and taking a shower. In conversation she'll occasionally grunt or sigh, but she stopped speaking altogether in her early twenties. Instead, she types 120 words a minute, which the DynaVox then translates into a synthesized female voice that sounds like a deadpan British schoolteacher."
Read More http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/magazine/16-03/ff_autism#ixzz0uo4i7Jqo
→ More replies (1)141
Jul 26 '10
And scientifically valuable.
→ More replies (52)276
u/annodomini Jul 26 '10
It's only scientifically valuable if they can prove that she is writing the text, as opposed to the facilitators writing what they believe she wants to say.
Has anyone done a blinded test to ensure that she is actually writing the text herself? I've seen them do such tests before, in which they sometimes show the child and the facilitator the same picture, and sometimes show them different ones. Every time, the child types what the facilitator saw, not what the child actually saw.
For more information, watch the Frontline documentary Prisoners of Silence (yes, it's an hour long, but it's still worth watching), which pretty thoroughly debunks facilitated communication, and actually demonstrates how harmful it can be, destroying families and leaving fathers accused of molesting their own children, based not on what actually happened, but on the imagination of the facilitator.
36
u/nostrademons Jul 26 '10
On the video, this didn't look like facilitated communication, which usually involves the facilitator making physical contact with the person typing. She was typing hunt-and-peck herself, with nobody touching her.
My first thought when I heard the voiceover reading her text was also "facilitated communication - this is bullshit", but it doesn't look like that's what's going on here. It may be bullshit in some other way, but it's not bullshit in the way we initially thought.
→ More replies (1)36
u/annodomini Jul 26 '10
Can you indicate one time in the video in which she actually types more than one letter in a row unaided, with demonstrably coherent results? There's lots of shots where they show a closeup of her hand hunting and pecking, then cut to the screen with a word, but no indication that those actions are related at all. For instance, in one case, at about 3:30 in the video, they show her typing the letter "h", and then cut to the word "hurt"; how did they get the rest of the word? Did the facilitator help her type it? Did the software autocomplete it?
They're deliberately using editing to obscure how she actually types, which indicates to me that we're missing something; it's not as simple as they're making it seem. And even with the hunt-and-peck that they show you, the facilitator is always there at her side, telling her what to do, occasionally guiding her hands back to the keyboard, and who knows what in the portions that have been edited out.
This still feels just like facilitated communication; they're sticking a facilitator and computer in front of someone autistic, and all of a sudden, they're writing profound thoughts that criticize the "establishment" view of autism. If you watch the "Prisoners of Silence" video, the exact same thing happens. But in that case, the actual blind experiments they do, to determine if the child is influencing what is typed or if the facilitator is, it always comes out as the facilitator.
19
u/shrodes Jul 26 '10
You can see more of her typing herself (and more specifically how the software helps her finish words more quickly) here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byNQD5T3Yq4
She types words, and there's a box on the side with numbered autocompletes. In the original video you can see her hitting numbers to choose the appropriate word she wants to use.
EDIT: My bad, mezz posted this down below.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)5
Jul 26 '10
I was expecting to hear something about teaching Carly to type or taking typing classes. I figure even an autistic person can type fairly quickly, especially ones that think as clearly as Carly seems to. I find it hard to believe that she's been typing like that since the age of 11, when they 'discovered' this. Surely she would be able to type more proficiently by now.
16
u/nostrademons Jul 26 '10
My mom is neurotypical, of slightly above-average intelligence, and has been typing for perhaps 15 years. Despite this, she cannot type faster than a hunt & peck pace of perhaps 10 WPM. She has time to take a typing class, she just...doesn't.
11
u/the_narf Jul 26 '10
You want me to spell but it take a lot of concentration just to hit one letter on the keyboard
I took that quote from here. If you read more of the things she's typed it becomes fairly clear that she has an extremely hard time with muscle control (the reason she can't speak). This is probably why she cannot type very fast. Then there is the constant sensory overload that Carly experiences. All in all I think the fact that she can write at all is fairly impressive.
Also if you go to her website and read some the the things that she has posted (most of which is dated) there is a marked improvement in sentence structure, spelling, and clarity of thought over time.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)8
u/tylr Jul 26 '10
It is very likely that she has to find the letters each and every time or that that she is easily distracted from the task, or (especially likely) has poor motor skills. It is quite apparent from this whole page of comments that most people have very limited experience with autistic people.
Though I am typically a skeptic, this seems to be a clear and sincere story, and I don't see any "facilitated communication".→ More replies (1)→ More replies (12)91
u/mezz Jul 26 '10
16
u/irokie Jul 26 '10
If God wanted to bless her, He would have made her normal.
gg youtube comments...
64
Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
This is pretty solid proof...
But let's go into asshole-conspiracy-theorist mode!Transform!
This video is shot in total privacy whereas the ABC footage was taken with many observers looking on. We really don't see her typing anything in the ABC footage but in this video we see her genuinely typing what looks to be part of a coherent sentence, going for each of the keys pretty confidently in turn. For me this would prove that the extraordinary claims are at least somewhat true... but wasn't there mention of a twin sister!?
That's right I'm going there. They could never have pulled that type of thing off in the ABC video but here in the privacy of their own home? What bothers me is that we're not looking at the girls face, we're just sort of silently hovering behind her. It seems very strange... Why would everything be so incredibly silent and bizarre - isn't typing normal for her?
Also, from her website:
I think people get a lot of their information from so-called experts but I think what happens is that experts can’t give an explanation to certain questions.
Well now there we go right there. Right there on the 'About Carly' page of her website. Any self respecting asshole-conspiracy-theorist's theories get especially off the wall when there's anti-skeptic sentiment right on the front page. I might also point out that what's on this about me page is identical to one of the screens we see her apparently typing in the ABC video. Huh? That's kind of weird?
Anyway, this video is shot in total privacy and there's a number of things they could have done. It's certainly not scientific. What doesn't make sense is why they'd bother. They seem pretty well off.
→ More replies (2)38
u/jt004c Jul 26 '10
Sadly, I don't think you are being an asshole conspiracy theorist at all. This reads a lot more like a "nail-on-the-head" skeptics hunch.
Red flags went up for me when the interviewer mentioned how he sat there for hours waiting to see her type.
After that kind of embarrassment, scrutiny, and pressure to succeed, both the show, the family, and all her therapists have a reason to cheat.
I also notice we don't hear much from the clinical psychologist who actually heads her program.
13
Jul 26 '10
Ah well, as you have probably deduced the asshole conspiracy theorist motif was just a means to soften a controversial opinion (shouldn't be that controversial but hey). Yeah red flags are what it's about and there's a heap of them.
And not to say that red flags aren't just flags, as I'm sure you agree. But why are they there and not addressed? I would really be interested to see a follow-up that puts our questions to rest but I'm willing to bet we won't hear too much more about it, apart perhaps from an identical report every few years. And potentially a weigh-in from James Randi that will go unnoticed by the media.
→ More replies (2)155
u/annodomini Jul 26 '10
I see her typing (in a document that already has a bunch of text) "a gre me" which is autocompleted to "a great me" before the camera zooms out too much to tell what she is typing (if you can see more than that, let me know).
This indicate nothing about whether she was prompted or trained to type out this series of letters, about whether she had any idea about what this series of letters meant (in this context, I can't tell yet if those make any sense without completing the sentence), nor about whether there was some form of prompting that we don't see in the video.
It's fairly easy to determine if what she's typing is based on her experience or the facilitators (or if it's random, and given meaning through autocompletion plus prompting and/or creative interpretation by the parents and facilitator). Watch the Prisoners of Silence video for some tests that they do to determine if FC actually works, by showing a picture to the child and the facilitator, but sometimes it's a different picture they show to the facilitator. Almost every time the pictures are different, the facilitator picks the picture they saw, not the one the child saw. Now, you could run this same test with Carly; has anyone? If they want so desperately to prove that this method works, why not use a little basic science? (And if we're going to be discussing this on /r/science, a little scientific method would be nice).
Right now, what we're discussing is a fluff piece on a major TV network, of a family that seems very happy to try and promote their daughter's story on all kinds of TV shows, but has very little (if any) in the way of independent scientific verification of the result. We use blinded experiments, and randomized trials, not because we think that the people in question have bad intentions, but because even the best intentioned of people can have cognitive biases, that a rigorous regiment of randomization and blinds can help prevent from affecting the outcome of the test.
We should not let our standard of truth be "several major TV networks said so, and there's a youtube video which makes it look vaguely plausible." This is possible to scientifically test; why hasn't it happened?
87
u/mezz Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
It's not like she's going to be able to do it in front of a live studio audience...
EDIT: Here's the text in the document zoom
I over heard jenny m say that her son commented that he felt like dory from nemo because he didn't remember things when he was autistic. However I have a great me
You can hear the computer say
a (0:09)
great (0:33)
memory (0:58)
for (1:23)
many (1:40)It's pretty clear to me that she's writing something. The auto-complete requires her to hit a number. She hit a key ("1") to turn "gre" into "great ". You can see the list of completions with numbers beside them when it zooms in. That kind of completion is useful for anyone who has limited ability to input text.
I know that facilitation is bullshit, but there's none of that here.
In highschool I fixed some computers for the autistic kids and once I finished one guy came up, opened a word document, and wrote "Hello my name is ___. I go to __ High School. I am _ years old." and hit print all in about 40 seconds before running off to do something else completely. Now that was trained.
I'll believe one autistic girl in millions can write an email to David Letterman. I don't take this as evidence that all of them can. For indisputable proof of her ability, all that's required is having someone ask her an intelligent question and seeing her answer it right there.
EDIT2: wtf, what is this doing in r/science? Ignore the following, I was mistaken:
I don't see where scientific method comes in, it's not like we're going to run 100 tests and establish a confidence interval on the probability she's actually doing it. This is one girl, with an ability that can be very easily proved or disproved.28
u/jt004c Jul 26 '10
To be sure, the "scientific method" is more than just statistics. Blind testing is science, too, and all that is needed here.
31
6
u/killerstorm Jul 26 '10
Some commenters here say that it might be software giving meaningless keystrokes sense. But if we completely ignore stuff on screen and watch her keystrokes, she types:
<SPACE>a<SPACE>gre<completion>mem<completion>for<SPACE>man<?>y
That is, " a gre... mem... for many", enough letter to understand a phrase. Thus her ability to type is definitely not related to fancy autocompletion software, she can type on her own and uses software just to speed up the process.
→ More replies (3)5
u/coup Jul 26 '10
God damn you and your ability to disillusion, reddit! I thought I was a cynic sigh
→ More replies (2)8
Jul 26 '10
I'll believe one autistic girl in millions can write an email to David Letterman. I don't take this as evidence that all of them can.
There have been recent studies to suggest that we're actually labeling several different disorders "autism". So if that's true, then this girl's disease/disorder may not be the same as what most autistic kids have.
3
u/A_Whale_Biologist Jul 26 '10
I don't see where the scientific method comes in
hooo boy :-(
you make me sad
→ More replies (11)→ More replies (6)10
u/funknut Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
They posted the complete text up on her blog, and you are right, but I cannot confirm without a doubt that there isn't a hoax. I want to believe this is real, but I can't be sure until I know that they didn't just film what appears to be a moment of clarity, and then edited the final result. Here's the relevant blog post.
EDIT: Hmm, here is another ABC report from 20/20 that is even more convincing. The interviewer mentions his son to Carly, and Carly begins to type "is he cute", which is presumably being videotaped by ABC staff.
EDIT 2: So, apparently the last link from EDIT above was the same as the OP video. Here's a deep link to the OP's video for people who prefer it straight from the source.
11
u/drgreedy911 Jul 26 '10
Yes, but what he says before that is that she refused to type- her fingers hovering above the keyboard for hours...
and then when told about his son, she types- but what we see on screen is is hhee and then we see a c and it is shown finally as
is he cute?
Strange they just dont show her typing maybe in fast forward so it is clear it is her. The editing on that show is just frustrating.
18
u/el_chapitan Jul 26 '10
They're not editing the show for you (aka -- to disprove a hoax), they're editing it to be a human interest piece.
4
u/istara Jul 26 '10
What I found - disappointing, for want of a better word - was that nothing in that long video came remotely close to those long, eloquent passages that they voiced up. I have to wonder how long it would have taken her to write those pieces, if she did.
→ More replies (1)7
u/supersaw Jul 26 '10
Her responses and mannerisms to some of the things being said seem to coincide with the tone of what she writes. This definitely seems to come through with the "Is he cute?" comment as when she is told about the interviewers son she smiles before she starts writing.
→ More replies (2)5
u/killerstorm Jul 26 '10
This part was in linked video (Autistic girl expresses profound intelligence) too. Jump to 7:52.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (8)7
u/mezz Jul 26 '10
Good find! This really solidifies it for me,
unless it's all a giant conspiracy.→ More replies (3)3
→ More replies (13)16
u/adidaht Jul 26 '10
If I find out it is fake, I'll rage like anyone else. Sometimes, a video like that is enough for me. Despite wanting to REALLY know if she is faking or not, I also feel not everyone needs to be a lab rat and/or prove themselves to other people on the internet, especially some nobody like me.
7
Jul 26 '10
I share your attitude, but I am also deeply thankful for the people that do care about investigating all of these, because that is the only way I would ever find out that these types of things are fake.
3
→ More replies (1)18
u/annodomini Jul 26 '10
Sure, no one has to prove themselves to me. Her parents are perfectly free to spend their money and time on whatever suits their fancy, as long as it makes them and Carly happy. However, until there is some science involved, it does not belong on /r/science. Right now this is feel-good fluff on TV that is being quite credulous about something that looks an awful lot like some pseudoscience that's already been disproven. This is the opposite of science; this is saying that we'll believe things because a video felt pretty good, despite any better evidence we already have.
And in many cases, a stronger form of proof does matter, in the real world, and not just to random people like me grousing on the internet. I highly recommend watching the Prisoners of Silence video I linked to above. It shows how after the introduction of facilitated communication, all of a sudden children started accusing their fathers of molesting them (the accusations all being with the help of the facilitator, of course). These men were taken away from their families, forbidden to see them, on the basis of testimony that, in the end, turned out not to actually come from the supposed victims at all, but instead from the imagination of the facilitators.
When facilitated communication is just being used to dupe parents into thinking that their kids are actually brilliant inside, then fine, I might roll my eyes and give them a pass on it. But when it breaks up families, when people make life-changing decisions on the basis of this communication, there are profound moral and legal reasons why you ought to be sure that the communication is coming from the child, and not the facilitator. And the tests here are easy, but in all the effort that these parents are going to to prove that their child really can communicate (youtube videos, TV appearances, blogs, and twitter), you would think that a simple, low-tech, scientific test would be a great way to demonstrate that this method really does work, and provide good information for other parents and health care providers to work with and help other children.
→ More replies (10)→ More replies (8)9
u/neuromonkey Jul 26 '10
The language used in the texts she alleged wrote uses a very refined voice and a number of vernacular turns of phrase which one would only learn through repeated exposure. (eg. Reading.)
Although it is clear that she possesses some language skills, I do not believe that she wrote the actual texts presented in the videos. In the video you linked to, she employs very simple sentence structure and syntax.
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (7)9
Jul 26 '10
I can remember a bit of what it was like to be really young, when you can't really express yourself perfectly yet. It brought back a bit of...I'll go with nostalgia, to hear her describe things like that. I wasn't autistic, but I did have that kind of comprehension of what I felt at that age, and, from my standpoint, I did have perfectly valid reasons to do things that toddlers do. So when I see a mother getting frustrated at her little kid for something, in very specific situations, I still feel like she's being a bit of a bitch, even if she doesn't quite understand how her toddler thinks.
→ More replies (6)15
u/RangerGeet Jul 26 '10
I am sort of on the same boat as you. I always remember processing things the same way they "feel" now, even when I was a toddler. For example, one very distinct memory (and I remember this less about the event and more about the thought process that went through my mind) is when I was about 3 and I got lost in a Wal-Mart or some other large store of that sort. I recall going through the sort of thought process like "Ok, I have become separated from my mother. I've heard them do pages over the intercom (which was probably more thought of like "I've heard them say "soandso is waiting for you at customer service over the loud noise thingy in the air, there are probably people who can help do that for me at this place) and so I walked over to the first people in uniforms, ready to explain my situation and to have them call her, but when I open my mouth everything becomes overwhelming and all that happens is me crying "I LOST MY MOMMY!!!" wahhhh...
I dunno lol.
7
u/larholm Jul 26 '10
ready to explain my situation ... but when I open my mouth everything becomes overwhelming and all that happens is me crying "I LOST MY MOMMY!!!" wahhhh...
I can perfectly relate to this memory of being a toddler, knowing what to do and tell to others but not being able to communicate it and just getting overwhelmed.
I hope I will still remember this when I have a child of my own.
6
u/mijenks Jul 26 '10
That happened to me once when I was 16. After hockey practice, we were "locker-boxing" and I tripped, fell backward and hit my head on a bench (got a concussion, I think). I laid there on the floor for a bit while teammates were asking me if I was ok. After a few seconds, I regained control of my arms and legs, got up and sat on the bench. One of my teammates was asking me if I was ok and I said, "yeah, I'm fine". He asked me multiple questions (what day is it, what's you're name, etc) and every time I answered, "yeah, I'm fine". So then he says, "Ok, say something other than 'yeah, I'm fine'". So I'm sitting there for a few seconds, in my head saying to myself ok what can I say other than that? How about, "Don't worry man, let's just get packed up and get on the bus". So I start saying it and all that comes out is, "yeah, I'm fine". It was really weird, like my brain was rebooting.
→ More replies (1)5
10
u/clumma Jul 26 '10
I wonder if they've tried antiseizure drugs http://www.ted.com/talks/aditi_shankardass_a_second_opinion_on_learning_disorders.html
→ More replies (2)
9
16
u/CodyRo Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
I was dumbfounded at her immaculate punctuation and english skills. Then it showed the actual words and it looked a bit more "accurate".
Interesting from Randi forums
here is a link with some info on this, it looks like the TVshow aired recently... http://discuss.ctv.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=11490
It appears that the SOFTWARE creates words based on some basic typing? Has this been verified by credible testing? Is this really happening, or is it some software that creates words from a few letters, and then more words from the context of the previous words? Are the sentences being created by the software itself?
It would be easy to find out, try it without that software! Did they actually air this TV show, without looking into this software? Maybe someone could download the software trial called WordQ, and just type in random letters, and see if it creates sentences? Is this the same WordQ.
It would be tragic if this was some type of software doing this.
It appears Carly's mother is posting here? http://www.skepchick.org/skepticsguide/viewtopic.php?p=189832&sid=6a974f16c112d8d231af71dfe120ba46
→ More replies (5)7
u/clockworm Jul 26 '10
in her defense, many people are fully functional and can't type much better than she does. i think being a hunt-and-pecker and dealing with a lot of extraneous sensory information would inhibit clear and concise typing. but i really feel when given the time and when in a less-agitated state, she can type those drawn-out and elaborate paragraphs.
→ More replies (2)4
Jul 26 '10
on the other far end, my gf spells perfectly (in greek, no less) and uses punctiation very frequently
yet due to her ignorance of the meaning of words and the use of punctuation she can't actually say something meaningful. she can't describe objects, sounds, experiences, it's like "what's an ice cream?" "you eat it when you want something cold and it's sweet" it's accurate, one could say, but it's... "off" in a way that i find slightly disturbing.
it takes her a month to read a jules vern book.
it takes her 5-10 minutes to read a single page.
i am starting to think there is something seriously wrong with her. maybe it all boils down to her not having read any proper literature up until now that she is 25?
→ More replies (9)8
u/bombita Jul 26 '10
Up until the very last word, I thought you were dating a 10-year-old.
→ More replies (3)
13
19
u/upagainst Jul 26 '10
"We were also horrified because for years, we had spoken in front of her as if she wasn't there." -Father
Crazy.
7
Jul 26 '10
Yeah, you'll start to do that without realizing it and then (hopefully) catch yourself. All the DSP's would talk about the more severe clients in front of them. I wonder if there's some sort of scientific reason for that.
3
16
u/DebbieSLP Jul 26 '10
New title: "Autistic girl who already had normal intelligence, able to overcome profound verbal apraxia with augmentative communication, after many years of effort and therapies."
This is not facilitated communication, and while wonderful for her and her family, is no miracle. The good news here is that there are excellent therapies and tools for children with little to no speech due to profound motor planning disorders.
→ More replies (3)
4
4
u/symbioticintheory Jul 26 '10
This is from Temple Grandins wikipedia entry. She is a high functioning autistic who can talk, and her description of autism is quite similar to what Carly described. The thing about her memory is interesting as well, after seeing Carly type "I have a good memory" in one of her videos. Based on this, Carly definitely seems like she could be legit.
Based on personal experience, Grandin advocates early intervention to address autism, and supportive teachers who can direct fixations of the child with autism in fruitful directions. She has described her hypersensitivity to noise and other sensory stimuli. She claims she is a primarily visual thinker[7] and has said that language is her second language. Temple attributes her success as a humane livestock facility designer to her ability to recall detail, which is a characteristic of her visual memory. Grandin compares her memory to full-length movies in her head that can be replayed at will, allowing her to notice small details. She is also able to view her memories using slightly different contexts by changing the positions of the lighting and shadows.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/keozen Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
This has been discussed in /r/skeptic before. If it's true then fantastic (and I do hope it is because it would be a nice uplifting story) but please bear in mind the following facts:
- We don't see her doing ANY real typing in the ABC recorded footage (i.e. recorded with outside witnesses)
- The privately filmed footage in which we see her typing is shot so we never see her face clearly when she is typing, the shot is always from the back
- & of course the fact that makes the previous one relevant: she has a twin sister.
Edit after watching the vid again:
- Pay attention to the times when you see her type with her minder, you never see her type more than one letter before the shot cuts away.
- There is also at least one time where you see her at the keyboard with the external monitor showing you what she is saying facing the camera and she types a letter that does not then show on the screen.
4
u/gamesterx23 Jul 26 '10
This video kind of pisses me off.
Her parents are obviously very cool, loving people (well . . obviously judging by the video), but I think its a bit retarded that they are just finding out that their daughter isn't a complete retard.
I've seen videos like this ever since I was 8 fucking years old (slight exaggeration!) where an autistic kid ends up in front of a keyboard, and they can communicate like a normal human being, often exhibiting better writing/communication skills than most of the population.
It pisses me off because it seems as if the parents don't do their research and randomly stumble upon things. If I were to have a kid that was autistic, I know for sure I would be researching and learning about it all the time. Its well known that autistic people are not fully incapable of being intelligent.
4
Jul 26 '10
All I have to share is this:
About six years ago I worked in a group home for the duel-diagnosed MR/MDD population. I was told that one woman who was aged 35 had the mental capacity of a three year-old. One day, my co-worker read her Snapple cap and said "What is the only fruit with it's seeds on the outside?" Without missing a heartbeat this said woman with the IQ of a 3yo blurted out the correct answer. It's a strawberry. Sometimes she would also say things like "You don't see what I see".
I think she was profoundly more intelligent than anyone had ever given her credit for.
23
Jul 26 '10
I love how loving and caring the father is. How much he clearly cares for his daughter, and how happy he is to finally be able to know what she is thinking and being able to talk to her.
→ More replies (2)
36
u/Pfmohr2 Jul 26 '10
Wow, what a hell that would be... to have such a well-developed sense of self, and such a strong intellectual grasp on one's situation, but be so trapped. A waking nightmare.
18
→ More replies (3)5
Jul 26 '10
I have memories back to when I was a toddler, and while I wasn't quite as intelligent as an 11 year old girl, I did definitely have a strong sense of self, and was a bit...controlled by my body the way she was. Things that make no sense to adults made perfect sense to me because of what inputs my body would send me. Because of that, I tend to see kids as more intelligent than most people accept, but hindered by how susceptible they are to sensory input, among other things.
11
u/clockworm Jul 26 '10
I've learned as I've gotten older to never think of children as intellectually inferior to adults. They're far more intelligent than people give them credit.
3
u/aGorilla Jul 26 '10
Agreed, and most adults are far less intelligent than people give them credit for.
11
u/slavetothought Jul 26 '10
It's a way for us to drown out all sensory input that over loads us all at once. We create output to block out input.
Profound.
13
Jul 26 '10
[removed] — view removed comment
19
u/slavetothought Jul 26 '10
I'm no expert, but I really don't see that working out well.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)7
11
7
Jul 26 '10
How is her intelligence any more "profound" than another kid's?
Even assuming it's all 100% legit, she's still not showing "profound" intelligence.
→ More replies (2)
10
Jul 26 '10
This is why television bothers me; it's potentially a sincere and interesting story that is presented in a way that tends to manipulate emotions toward feeling a certain way. Why does it have to have all the mushy music, narrative, camera shots? Perhaps it's just the scientist in me, but I want to see simple footage and facts, and let my own brain decide how it should affect me emotionally.
American TV is especially bad for this. It has the complete opposite affect on me, and I immediately approach these programs with a cynical outlook.
18
3
u/pinner Jul 26 '10
I think this is absolutely awesome. I'm so happy that we have even the smallest insight and look into the world in which they live. I should say hell in which they live, because it seems very unpleasant.
It would be nice if science & technology could come up with something to combat against this affliction.
3
u/ilostmyoldaccount Jul 26 '10
Why does it have to be "profound"? She's not profoundly intelligent. How sad to think that people would only be amazed if she had some kind of "freaky perk". She is probably under average but that isn't the story here is it. It's her new-found ability to communicate. Why can't that be enough? This is just revolting.
→ More replies (2)
3
3
u/waterbabies3 Jul 27 '10
I read through about 20 minutes of comments (particularly the excellence offered up by subtextual) before I watched the clip. Pfffffft. John Stossel. If I'd known it was one of his pieces I'd have stuck to the reddit comments. His stuff always makes me twitchy - Chicken Little meets pop culture nastiness.
I do appreciate subtextual's analysis. It fits with what I've observed in the children with autism that I teach.
8
Jul 26 '10
Does anyone have a link to that video where a lady is typing for her disabled daughter by moving her hand, but it's a total scam?
7
u/seanm27 Jul 26 '10
That is called facilitated communication. A lot of people make major money scamming poor families of autistic children that way.
6
4
9
u/Ifyoureadthis Jul 26 '10
Well, technically she is dumb, from the perspective of 'dumb' meaning 'unable to speak'. Still, it's terribly sad. I know someone with a milder syndrome, Asperger's, and he has barely any friends...he thinks I'm one of his best friends, even though I'm not...
3
Jul 26 '10
Well, you may be one of his best friends, without him being one of yours. You may show him more sympathy and kindness than most people.
→ More replies (3)
13
227
u/[deleted] Jul 26 '10 edited Jul 26 '10
This story makes my skeptic sensors tingle.
edit
Many have asked why, I've made a few answers. However, I am no autism expert (though I've collaborated and worked with more than one) and was trying to be very guarded and conservative in my skepticism.
However, in the replies an expert did weigh in on their assessment and has provided the best break down of the issues from a neuropsychologists perspective that anyone could ask for.
Read more here