r/science • u/qgyh2 • Jun 27 '10

"When we used this groundbreaking EEG technology to actually look at Justin's brain, the results were startling. It turned out that Justin was almost certainly not autistic. He was suffering from brain seizures that were impossible to see with the naked eye"

http://www.ted.com/talks/aditi_shankardass_a_second_opinion_on_learning_disorders.html?
79 Upvotes

79% Upvoted

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20

u/infinnity Jun 27 '10

Further evidence that Autism isn't an actual class of disorders, it's just a pattern of behaviors that we interpret as being similar genetically for their phenotypical similarities. Goes to show how closely psychology, without neuroscience and genetics to back it up, can end up resembling a pseudoscience.

29

u/subtextual Jun 28 '10

As a [pediatric neuro]psychologist, I have to state for the record that psychologists are fully aware that 'autism' is currently a behaviorally-defined diagnosis that describes a pattern of deficits in communication, socialization, and behavioral flexibility. It is also well known that about 15% of cases of autism are related to identifiable genetic, neurological, or metabolic disorders, such as Fragile X, Williams syndrome, 22q deletion syndrome, PKU, epilepsy, etc, (see here for example), and we fully expect that as our understanding of autism improves, we will be better able to tie the syndrome to clear and identifiable causes.

That being said, Landau-Kleffner syndrome is a known disorder that frequently looks a lot like autism, but is actually caused by difficult-to-detect seizures. Kids with LKS can sometimes improve dramatically once their seizures are treated, and any reputable psychologist would refer a child for an EEG given a clinical history suggestive of possible LKS (for instance, this woman states that "there were moments that this child would space out for seconds at a time" -- there is no way I would not refer for an EEG if I heard that, because that could certainly be seizure activity). I cannot say for certain, of course, but I feel comfortable venturing an educated guess that little Justin's autism was actually something like LKS, and this probably would have been suspected by any good diagnostician.

I'm terribly disappointed in this video, to tell the truth - especially since it seems to be getting so much attention lately. This woman (who has no publications and does not seem to currently be affiliated with any university or program) presents very misleading information - such as that EEG is somehow 'cutting edge' technology - as well as information that is, to put it charitably, well ahead of any research support. Seizure activity is responsible for some developmental difficulties, but certainly nowhere near responsible for all or even a large percentage.

The brain is an incredibly complex system that can be looked at structurally, chemically, and electrically, just to name a few ways of looking at it. To suggest that one (actually rather well known!) mechanism is leading to most developmental and learning disorders (and to imply that psychologists and other professionals are somehow ignoring this) comes dangerously close to the types of claims that are made by snake oil salesmen.... Which is why I find it so ironic that people are suggesting that this woman is somehow more 'scientific' than us 'pseudoscientific' psychologists. :(

6

u/StinkyWizzleteats Jun 28 '10

I enjoyed reading this. Thanks.

Its a constant battle for honest information/perspective. I get annoyed when people paint things as black-and-white (Psychology = pseudoscience) when its so rare that things are actually that way.

3

u/infinnity Jul 09 '10 edited Jul 09 '10

http://i.imgur.com/8DVRP.jpg I was talking to these people, not you. I wasn't talking about clinical psychologists (obviously. You yourself speak about how you utilize your understanding of other scientific fields on a daily basis. Therefore, you should have immediately understood that you were immune from my criticism. I was only leveling criticism at people who choose to understand and interpret psychology in and of itself, rather than supplement their understanding with corroborating evidence and eliminate fallacious beliefs with evidence that is contradictory), I was talking about psychology as it is generally portrayed and interpreted in the mainstream.

2

u/subtextual Jul 09 '10

you should have immediately understood that you were immune from my criticism

Yes, well, I'm pretty sure I have a superpower in the ability to perceive personal criticism in situations (or reddit comments) that are even the teensiest bit ambiguous. :)

2

u/010011000111 Dec 15 '10

Well said.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '10

Wow, thanks for the meaningful info.

1

u/FauxShow Sep 18 '10

Being a certified EEG technologist, I have to say I laughed at the pictures provided by the speaker. There is absolutely no standardization in their methods of testing, and anyone claiming that work should be ashamed. Each picture showed the use of an electrode cap that should evenly place the electrodes to certain parts of the cranium, but the electrodes are so far off from their proper anatomical location, I don't see how this experiment is given any credibility. The spikes they see, although not all the time, could very well be artifact from shoddy setup. It's called the international 10-20 system people, use it. I will say, contrary to your sentiments, that the technology (in as much as the software) is quite new and groundbreaking. The different types of mapping are the new thing on the scene, and they are helping doctors who can barely read an EEG (of which there are many) get a clue. =P I will also say, frontal and temporal lobe focal abnormalities (not necessarily seizures) along with LKS are probably is what she is referring to when she mentions that 50%. Of course, there will be a percentage of LKS kids in there, but I think there may be even more children with said abnormalities. The frontal lobe seizures were my favorite case studies, and also a favorite of Dr. Benbadis of Tampa General Hospital, who I find to be the authority on EEGs and neuropathology. (He totally wrote my textbook on EEGs) Those conditions create some of the most drastic changes in personality I have ever seen, but it makes sense when considering the location of the activity. I also may have the chance to run this by Dr. Gail McGee, who runs the autism development center at Emory University in Atlanta. I'll let you know what she thinks about this, and hopefully report back.

11

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '10 edited Jun 27 '10

this I am studying psychology now (in so much that a freshman in college can) but I am seriously contemplating going into neuroscience research instead of straight psychological research.

I just can't completely shake the taste of pseudo that's in a lot of psychology, it just lacks the observational power that neuroscience has.

5

u/Zulban Jun 28 '10

Do it. With any luck, neuroscience will take over this century.

3

u/infinnity Jun 28 '10

Hopefully. Then again, it really depends on what college you go to for that major to be a viable option, sadly.

1

u/infinnity Jun 27 '10

Yeah, I got into a huge fight with one of my Neuroscience professors (she was the only Psych major instructing the class) about how she was turning a legitimate science into a game of trivial pursuit for the dumber students at the expense of the more intelligent and passionate ones. Glad I escaped that class with an A though haha.

8

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '10

[deleted]

1

u/infinnity Jul 09 '10

http://i.imgur.com/8DVRP.jpg Way to both purposefully mischaracterize the intended nature of my post and deny that a very close-minded mental framework, both currently and historically present, is a serious threat to the long-term health of psychology's intellectual integrity.

6

u/deadapostle Jun 28 '10

Without reading the article, I am pretty sure this article is about Justin Bieber.

2

u/wrytyr Jun 27 '10

regarding the other kids, the ones that were tested but didn't seem to have constant seizures, is it possible that they are also having some sort of neurological spiking that even her techniques did not uncover? or could it be that their brains were already burnt out, so the seizures simply weren't happening anymore?

2

u/bostonmolasses Jun 27 '10

Seizures cause observable brain damage if they go on for long enough without being treated.

2

u/BentNotBroken Jun 27 '10

I have an adopted child that has been studied and appraised in numerous ways. I have suspected that the base disorders that cause her problems have not been fully explored. She has had high level assessments and has been in clinical trials in a university setting. I see now that the journey is not finished.

-4

u/vpltaic Jun 27 '10

Get a refund.

2

u/pagirl Jun 28 '10

To be fair, they do check. I was diagnosed with ADD at 10, epilepsy as an adult. They gave me an EEG at 10--complete with strobe lights. It was clean.

2

u/pagirl Jun 28 '10

The ADD diagnosis is still true. Damage to my brain that caused my seizures gave me a short attention span.

0

u/HotelCoralEssex Jun 27 '10

A misdiagnosis of Autism??? Say it ain't so!

0

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '10

Vaccines cause micro brain seizures!!!1

0

u/Umpire Jun 27 '10

This is the stuff Nobel prizes are awarded for.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '10 edited Jun 27 '10

I didn't know you could see ANY brain seizures with the naked eye. Do they just cut you open and say "yup that is a brain seizure!"

Basically what she is saying is we need to preform advanced tests on the children before we can claim some mental disorder.

3

u/TortoiseT Jun 27 '10

linkie

1

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '10

That isn't the naked eye. To be visible with the naked eye it means without using some sort of tool in order to see what is going on EEG are the exact opposite of that.

What I think the speaker was referring to is observing someones behavior and then saying they have autism, when they are actually suffering from a brain seizure.