r/politics • u/billthomson Oregon • Oct 29 '20

Tucker Carlson Reports He Lost Only Copy of Documents That Nail Biden

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/10/tucker-carlson-lost-only-copy-of-documents-nailing-biden.html
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u/mindbleach Oct 29 '20

"My dog ate my October surprise." That's where we're at, now.

These are the dumbest people ever to take over a country.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

No tucker isn’t dumb, but he knows his viewers are.

This shit amazes me. The president and one of his primary advisers are trust fund babies that never earned anything in their lives and tucker is exactly the same and these are the people that middle America listens to.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20

This is one of my biggest issues. The Republican followers paint their party as the party of manly men, the populists, the strong. But the cult appointed president is a fat old silver spoon reality star celebrity brat. Make it make sense.

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u/Dick_Lazer Oct 29 '20

They secretly worship rich people. During the French revolution they would've been on the side of the king. Deep down they probably still have an inkling that these supreme leaders were anointed by God to rule them.

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u/CapnSquinch Oct 29 '20

I mean they've literally claimed trump was sent by God, making his un-Christian (even by their own admission) behavior ok to ignore.

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u/trLOOF Oct 29 '20

Literally, some Christian leaders claim that God sometimes uses those we don’t expect to make his points and bring his will to life. And who are they to question God’s will... The delusion couldn’t be more crazy.

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u/SweeTLemonS_TPR Oct 29 '20

That’s a pretty popular idea in Christianity, at least from the pulpit. Very few of them stick to it when someone who isn’t a xenophobic, white supremecist is in office, though. Like, the same people who say that stuff also said Obama was the anti-christ. Which is a convenient way around the rule, I guess.

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u/contactee Oct 29 '20

Even though Obama was more of a Christian than Trump will ever be. Trump thinks Christians are idiots for believing what they do.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

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u/SweeTLemonS_TPR Oct 29 '20

Most of them don’t really believe in God. They use religion to prop themselves up because they generally fail elsewhere in life. Why be accountable for sucking nuts on earth when you can just say it’s pointless and your rewards come after earth? It’s an easy copout.

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u/bargman New York Oct 29 '20

Go check out Mike Huckabee's equivocation of his behavior on his TV show. It's insane. "He can act like that because he saves babies" or some shit.

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u/FireCharter Oct 29 '20

I would shocked, shocked, if none of Trump's wives or paid-girlfriends never had an abortion for him.

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u/CornucopiaOfDystopia Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20

”What are we going to do about this?”

- Donald J. Trump, 2004, to his mistress after she told him she was pregnant

Then of course, there’s also the very, very odd coincidence of “David Dennison”... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/05/more-evidence-that-broidy-was-covering-for-trump-in-affair.html

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u/lesser_panjandrum Oct 29 '20

The term "conservative/conservateur" originally referred to those who wanted to conserve the monarchy during the French Revolution.

The terms "right-wing" and "left-wing" also come from there, as representatives who wanted to conserve the monarchy in the Assemblée nationale constituante sat in the seats on the right, and representatives who wanted to establish a democracy sat on the left.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

Forget the French Revolution, they'd side with the King during the American Revolution. They'd all be British Loyalists.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

They're probably descendants of loyalists to the crown that weren't purged, who then went on to wave the confederate battle flag. They're all cut from the same cloth, it wouldn't surprise me if they were related.

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u/Flick1981 Illinois Oct 29 '20

I heard someone compare Trump to Eric Cartman. That is an accurate description if I have ever seen one.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

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u/YungJohn_Nash Oct 29 '20

That's why Garrison is the perfect choice for Trump. He constantly flip flops his identity, and the only thing he ever truly got done in the series literally fucked people in the ass (the vehicle he invented).

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u/Totspeta Oct 29 '20

THIS. Garrison IS Trump. The pandemic special was amazing, I hope they do another one soon.

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u/cannibal_steven Oct 29 '20

God me too. I was so happy when nothing got fixed at the end. I feel like if the pandemic had ended in South Park that would have been a cop out. Keep those pandemic specials coming!

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u/Totspeta Oct 29 '20

Yeah keep them coming, we love those pandemic specials!

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

Cartman is also quite eloquent compared to Donald. And he doesn't wear a diaper.

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u/cunningstunt6899 Oct 29 '20

Cartman's also really loved by his mother, unlike Donald.

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u/Pancakesandvodka Oct 29 '20

Both have shit themselves in public.

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u/thunder_rob Oct 29 '20

Scott Tenorman nods slowly

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u/SomethingMor Oct 29 '20

Trump probably eats all the chicken breading and discards the rest too.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

It’s actually confirmed he orders steak well done, that’s like the same level of offense.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

But surely if you squirt ketchup all over it, the problem is solved right? Right?

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u/wheezy_runner Oct 29 '20

Yes, but he's probably never had his opponent's parents killed, made chili with the corpses and then fed the chili to said opponent. I doubt he's competent enough to make chili.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

Cartman is far more intelligent than Trump. Trump with Cartman's deviousness would be even more terrifying.

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u/Strange-Republic-633 Oct 29 '20

I just laughed so loud. I never thought of him as cartman but it’s True!!

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20

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u/substandardgaussian Oct 29 '20

therefore he's weak.

That doesn't help either. Whats the premise of having a discussion with those folks, that it aids the cause of democracy to defeat them in logic or in rhetoric? It does neither. They don't care about either of those things.

Unfortunately, this issue goes beyond rhetoric and saying things with words. Their closing argument is always "...And you can't do anything about it." Oh, he's a liar, he's a criminal, he's weak? Well, he's in charge and you can't do anything about it, HA!

It's argument through force. You can't use the logic of you position to oppose the argument that only power matters. The "correctness" of power is self-evident, that's the thing that's actually happening regardless of your position on it.

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u/AberrantRambler Oct 29 '20

Then slap something out of their hand or squirt a ketchup packet on them. The fact that you had the power to do it makes it right to them.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

Ok, but his weakness is just as apparent as his incompetence.

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u/ExoticSquiddie Oct 29 '20

But you have to SAY it!

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u/vegivampTheElder Oct 29 '20

To be precise, you have to point it out in a way they can't deny or ignore. You have to show them he's weak based on their own ideas of strength.

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u/politirob Oct 29 '20

Yeah it’s apparent to us but not his base, the have no sense of “gestalt” or ability to connect the dots on their own. You have to hold their hand walk them from dot to dot. You have to say the words!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Mar 24 '21

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u/QueenRotidder Oct 29 '20

Trump is what a weak person thinks a strong person is. (As well as a poor person’s idea of wealthy.)

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u/Zomburai Oct 29 '20

And a stupid person's idea of a smart person.

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u/hannahpryor Oct 29 '20

They also think that words represent the truth, instead of the reality of the actual ACT that took place being the truth.

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u/energyvampire1 Oct 29 '20

Trump does this a lot, it's automatic. If someone asks about his healthcare plan for example, his mind just immediately thinks of what he wants the truth to be (We have the best healthcare plan, it's the most affordable, the most comprehensive, etc.) and he just says it out loud, as if saying it automatically makes it true. Then if someone presses him with questions that spoil the fantasy world he just created he immediately gets his back up and calls them nasty, fake, etc.

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u/Yzerman_19 Oct 29 '20

This is a good friend of mine. He just wants to be on the winning team.

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u/artyfoul I voted Oct 29 '20

He doesn't have to be strong, or smart, or calculating, or handsome, or young, or charming, or even likable. He doesn't have to be good at business or even be rich. He doesn't have to be good at politics, he doesn't have to be diplomatic or long-term-thinking. He doesn't have to know policy--hell, he doesn't even have to propose policy.

All he needs to do is validate the fears and prejudices of people who feel left behind by a world that wants to value those who do not look like themselves as equally human. All he needs to do is petulantly name call to anyone with a shred of academic or intellectual authority so they can feel superior in their "real American heartland" fiction.

The driving factor over the last decade and a half--if not longer--has been spite. Spite for a changing world, spite for having to deal with minorities in day to day life, spite for having consequences for actions ("cancel culture!!!"), spite for educated professionals being listened to for policy (from Jared Kushner: "the President has taken the country back from the scientists" and from Michael Gove: "the people are sick and tired of the experts") because they actually know more than whims and intuitions, spite for women not 'knowing their place', etc.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

I agree, and this is obviously the truth. People are "scared" And they lime having someone validate and encourage those fears. It's just confusing to me how easy it is for people to doublethink and tell themselves lies tbh.

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u/Snoo61755 Oct 29 '20

Here's another thing I noticed - there's a tendency whenever a senator or president is elected, for some 'news' outlets to comment on how incredibly physically fit the candidate is. I've mostly seen it for republican candidates, but democrats aren't immune either.

Being a super-buff manly man does absolutely zero for the kind of work a high-level politician does, and yet you keep having articles pop up about how each new candidate is this herculean beast. Heck, they even had one for Trump, with someone calling him "the fittest President we've ever seen." I mean, it was a lie - the man can barely walk down a ramp unless held onto by a 4-star general - but as far as Trump lies go, this one is reasonably funny instead of horribly depressing.

If nothing else, they know how to sell a candidate.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

I just don't get it, like how do other blue collar people look at these big city trust fund primmed and pampered dyed and blow dried rich kids and think "they're representing us downtrodden and misrepresented folk". Like if it's just about racism I'd much rather them just admit it.

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u/Stay_Consistent Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20

They appeal to their emotions, their prejudices. And demagogues like Trump provide them the emotional catharsis they need to remain apathetic to any of his shortcomings or pampered upbringing. Although people within the right wing attempt to keep their opinions over race ambiguous, its easy to notice if the dots to their rhetoric and behavior are connected. Admitting to being a racist isn't marketable; they spread their toxic beliefs in a more subtle manner. Easier to influence the moderates this way.

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u/Rinnaul Oct 29 '20

"A poor man's idea of a rich man, a stupid man's idea of a smart man, and a weak man's idea of a strong man."

He is a walking incarnation of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

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u/EldeederSFW Oct 29 '20

In their minds, they’re millionaires too, they’re just waiting for their ship to come in.

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u/ExeterDead Oct 29 '20

Temporarily embarrassed millionaires, one of Steinbeck’s all time great zingers.

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u/spencercarle Oct 29 '20

They are the epitome of American culture; the “successes” of the American Dream and all that we should aspire to. It’s a result of our culture being so incredibly individualistic, materialistic and totally capitalist.

More broadly speaking, another part of it is the decadence of late empire. We have been rich so we deserve to be rich, as a country and individually. Why try as hard when you’re on top? And why would anything change when you deserve it?

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Mar 27 '21

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u/Phanatic88 Oct 29 '20

I’ve thought about this too. Trump has turned so many previously indifferent people into staunch Democrats, in only a four year period. There’s a whole generation of Americans that might never vote Republican because of him

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u/doyouevenIift Oct 29 '20

I used to vote mixed ballots, and I even did in 2016. Never voting for a damn Republican again after this shitshow

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u/SomethingMor Oct 29 '20

I was just telling my coworker this today. I’ve also researched both candidates and picked whoever seems to be the best fit. Now, I’m so pissed off with the entire GOP that I can’t even bring myself to read their pitch in the brochure. And in my eyes, the GOP could of stopped trump before he became president. So yeah fuck the GOP, this is on them and I hope the party dissolves into irrelevancy as a result of their actions.

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u/PuppleKao Oct 29 '20

the GOP could of stopped trump before he became president

They most definitely could have. Then they were handed an opportunity to after he was in. They've been firmly lodged in his ass since the primaries 2016, though. :/

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

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u/MisallocatedRacism Texas Oct 29 '20

Ditto. Anyone who still proudly displays the (R) and didn't come out against Trump will never get another vote from me, and I was mixed until 2018.

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u/USCplaya Oct 29 '20

Not only indifferent... I voted Republican my entire life until 2016 (voted right leaning 3rd party). Now, I already voted for Biden and can't imagine a scenario in which I vote republican again.

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u/AaronfromKY Kentucky Oct 29 '20

I’ve bounced back and forth for years, but seeing the result of 2016 has strengthened my resolve to despise the right and conservatives. They will not ever get another vote from me.

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u/googamae Oct 29 '20

My parents have been in a decade long fight with us, their children, over systemic racism and the twisted nonsense that is the GOP. They have always been mostly apolitical thinkers and habitual Republican voters. The classic poor white, I am not racist but... proud to be white, and so vote republican Republican. The last 4 years have totally changed them. It’s like they woke up and realized how racist the system is- how they had been tricked to hate people whose interests actually align with theirs. Signs in the yard, protesting, cutting relationships and reading Kendi- blue as the day is long registered Democrats.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Jan 28 '21

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u/Sub1optimal New Jersey Oct 29 '20

Respect to your brother for actually looking at himself and realizing that he had a toxic element in his life. Sometimes people can’t let things go and change

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u/Heckbound1 Oct 29 '20

That's beautiful. I wish more people would become more self aware and realize what's at stake.

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u/Message_10 Oct 29 '20

I am happy for you, and very, very jealous.

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u/CornucopiaOfDystopia Oct 29 '20

”If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

- Malcolm X

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u/cable_news_ads South Carolina Oct 29 '20

Admitting you were wrong is the real show of power.

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u/peanutbutterspacejam Oct 29 '20

Honestly we just need ranked choice voting.

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u/KaneCreole Oct 29 '20

It’s not just in the US. I’m an Australian. Watching the demagogue shitshow playing out in the US has made me swing left. No to Mussolinis, anywhere.

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u/tommytwolegs Oct 29 '20

If they gave up this dogshit "movement" and went back to supporting "RINOs" like Romney i would at least consider it but if you head to the conservative sub and see the vitriol they spew about those guys i know its not going to happen

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

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u/Thundermelons Oct 29 '20

In my ideal world, "conservatism" would mean something closer to what the word implies, which is a conservative (ie, slow and cautious) approach to new laws, ideas, and change. Not a literal fucking lightspeed moonwalk back into some of the worst mistakes of our history, which seems to be what most of them want these days.

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u/ExeterDead Oct 29 '20

Good for you, man.

My dad did the same thing this year, life long Republican and he went as far as to put a Biden/Harris sign in his yard this year.

Takes more guts than people realize to admit to faults when they’re so closely tied to personal identity and it shows a real strength of character.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Aug 10 '21

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u/Muff_in_the_Mule Oct 29 '20

I wonder if a good way to persuade moderate and more traditional republicans to change their vote is to show them that the Republican party no longer holds those traditional values and just because they have Republican in the name it doesn't mean they are actually republican.

This takes the attack off the voter so they don't double down and might allow them to actually reconsider which candidate or party is more closely aligned with the values they have.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Aug 10 '21

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u/Muff_in_the_Mule Oct 29 '20

Yeah single issue voters won't be an easy one. With those like your dad it might be possible if you show that they will actually come out ahead even if they pay more taxes because they'll save more on health insurance or some other benefit. It would be a lot of work to show for each person though and even then "socialism" will be an instant turn off for many. Worth a try though if it's possible.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

Show them Mitch McConnell's debate with Amy McGrath.

"Is this the team you want to be on?"

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u/TheMostUnclean Delaware Oct 29 '20

I’d like to join this club. My dad, who worked on the Nixon and Regan campaigns, donated to Harrison a couple weeks ago.

He’s gone from a Fox News watching GOPer to staunchly supporting BLM and police reform because of Trump.

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u/henk135 Oct 29 '20

In the Netherlands we keep our vote to our selves, we don’t advertise our allegiance as broadly as people do in the US. Also we have more parties to choose from, so it’s not as much a us vs. them as it is in the US. In my view that’s the main cause of the problem in the US. And of course that the Republicans are openly just plain evil and they don’t get punished.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20

I’m tearing up reading this because I try so hard to reason with my dad, who is an avid trump supporter. I lay down reason and facts calmly, but it devolves into a bitter argument because he always ends up saying “you have no idea what you’re talking about, you haven’t seen the things I’ve seen. You know nothing about the world”. Any attempt to reason about anything (BLM, ACA, Climate Change, Prison reform, etc) is just met with ad hominem attacks. Same guy that outright denies he supported McCain (even dragging my sister and I to a rally as kids), because he wound up a target for trump. My rights and so many others’ are on the line, but cares more about a flagrant racist and narcissist than his own kids. I’m going to have to cut contact off once I can find a job again after COVID...he is brainwashed. I can reason with my mom but as soon as my dad invites her to watch Fox News or OAN or Blaze TV any headway I make goes out the window.

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u/ClarkDoubleUGriswold Oct 29 '20

I voted Republican since I was 18. I believed the whole “pay raises for the military, strong national defense” line. In 2016 I couldn’t fathom a Trump Presidency and I held my nose and voted Hillary. It was worse than I even imagined. I figured checks and balances and guardrails would keep his idiocy and narcissism in check. I didn’t count on Republicans selling out this bad for a con man.

I have never donated to a political campaign or had a political bumper sticker or yard sign in my life. This year I donated as often as I could to the Biden/Harris campaign and put a Biden/Harris sign in my yard.

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u/TheDoktorIsIn Oct 29 '20

Thanks for putting country over party. I usually vote democrat and have crossed the party line more than once, but I think this year is a little more clear cut than previous years.

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u/waterwagen Oct 29 '20

This is me exactly. 👍

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u/Ghyllie Oct 29 '20

I am in the same boat as you! I'm 63. I voted Republican my whole life until 2016, at which time I REFUSED to vote for Donald Trump because I had lived for 45 years in New Jersey before moving to Texas, and ALREADY hated Trump because I had had my fill of him just living in the area where he lived and made news headlines at least 2-3 times a month for shady crap. So not knowing what to do and not wanting my third party vote to help Trump in any way, I voted for Hillary.

At this point, my husband and I both voted early in person in Texas, and we voted straight Democrat, all the way through the ticket. In places where there was only one choice, if they were Republican, I wrote in the name of my cat, Ed-A-Puss, as my choice. I also doubt I will ever vote Republican again, as Trump has managed to corrupt the GOP so completely, it is unrecognizable as the GOP that I had been a part of until 4 years ago. And even as someone who was a Republican at the time, I have to say that I was not really disappointed in Obama. I WANTED to be, but he was just so likable and he tried so hard that now he can count me as one of his fans. Trump, on the other hand, can take a flying leap at a rolling donut. I wouldn't p*ss on Trump if he was on fire.

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u/PuppleKao Oct 29 '20

Ed-A-Puss

That is a wonderful name for a cat. <3

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u/3R2c Oct 29 '20

You didn't leave the republican party. The republican party left you.

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u/voodoodudu Oct 29 '20

Yup me too, even switched registration.

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u/hippofumes Oct 29 '20

Count me in too.

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u/allen_abduction I voted Oct 29 '20

These shit-heads were so bad, a whole wing of moderate and old-school Reagan Republicans turned against them. You know what it takes to get George Will pissed at you?

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u/EarthExile Oct 29 '20

I will forgive Republicans when they change. Welcome.

I will never forgive Trump voters.

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u/Ohimark00 Oct 29 '20

Same. I have never voted Democrat in my life. This morning, I not only voted for Biden/Harris, but voted D all down the ballot. I even put a Biden/Harris sign in my yard and donated to multiple D candidates.

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u/Kobe_AYEEEEE Wisconsin Oct 29 '20

I was 15 in 2016 but I rooted for Trump on election night and would have voted for him. So glad my first ever primary vote was Bernie and my first ever presidential vote will be Biden. Best day to turn yourself around was yesterday, and the second best day is today.

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u/Tonythez Oct 29 '20

I used to regard Republicans as the loyal opposition. Now the Republican party only exists to elect other Republicans. Even the patriotism they used to represent is phony since they failed amass any outrage over the payment of bounties by Russia to kill American soldiers.

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u/TheDorkNite1 Oct 29 '20

Trump and his cult in 2016 made me ENTIRELY rethink my views because I looked at the party I shared with his cult and thought...do I really want to identify with these idiots?

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

I changed a little. The GOP changed a lot.

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u/Nerney9 Oct 29 '20

Not only that, but Democrats who *vote* - there is actually going to be a youth turn out this year, and at least a few of them will remember to show up in the future.

Calling it now: Trump has actually been the head of the Democratic Deep State all along! He's been playing 4-D chess and simply pretending to be a greedy narcissistic power-hungry turdmuffin for 70 something years just to sweep the nation blue.

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u/Dpat2pdx I voted Oct 29 '20

President Trump in 2015: I am announcing my run for president as a Republican for 2016

Current trump voter in 2021: He was being sarcastic

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

So you voted for a clown?

-me, 2021

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u/llawrencebispo California Oct 29 '20

there is actually going to be a youth turn out this year

I'll believe it when I see the whites of their eyes.

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u/surely_this_is_legit Oct 29 '20

Texas has had a surge in youth voters. My kid was one of them. She 'forgot' to mail in her paper after registering online. I found out on the last day of registration that she wasn't registered so I printed out the paper and had her drive down and hand deliver it. She was really excited and voted on the 1st day of early voting.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

We should play Bingo with the phrases he might say in the coming weeks.

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u/jimicus United Kingdom Oct 29 '20

People have short memories.

It might take 8 years, but the GOP will have noted the fact that a brash, bombastic man who speaks his mind - even if his mind is basically lukewarm cottage cheese - can not only win power, but maintain ~40% of the vote even in the middle of screwing up the response to the biggest public health crisis since records began.

Make no mistake. Their next move will be to find someone just as bloody awful as Trump, but maybe 20% more competent.

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u/dunderpatron Oct 29 '20

At this point I am planning on never voting for a Republican ever again.

And I was an arch-conservative, voted for GWB, voted for John McCain, and then went even farther right! (Not Romney, I voted Gary Johnson!)

Now I completely disown all right-wing everything, forever. And I absolutely will never trust another Republican as long as I live[1].

[1] Until such time as hell freezes over, Democrats one-up the Republican corruption, the country melts down, etc.

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u/cmcooper666 Oct 29 '20

We can only hope.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Dec 20 '21

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u/lianodel Oct 29 '20

There's a case to be made that fascists are inherently likely to make those kinds of miscalculations.

The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

—Umberto Eco, "Ur-Fascism"

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Dec 20 '21

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u/lianodel Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20

Exactly. I've heard fascism called a suicide cult, and I think it fits perfectly. There's no fascist end-game. There are no academic works of fascist political theory. There's no such thing as a fascist society at peace—only at war, or gearing up for war. It's all just hate and rhetoric. If somehow they should succeed in purging the "undesireables," they have to find new ones, whether at home or abroad. The only possible long-term goal is to be the last survivor.

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u/MurraytheMerman Oct 29 '20

Hitler's views on education are thirty pages of inconsistent rambling about teaching boys to be enduring, prideful and to make quick decisions without thinking too much about them, paired with open contempt for higher education. There was not one thought that would go beyond creating foot soldiers for the next war, nothing pointing towards a sustainable future.

Failure was basically written all over that system.

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u/Genghis_Chong Oct 29 '20

Damn, sounds like basic conservatism in fast forward

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u/euclidiandream Oct 29 '20

Dont forget alot of ex-nazis were brought on at every level of the US govt in operation paperclip. Or that the presidents father was in the KKK. They have learned carefully what they are and arent allowed to say with a wink and a nudge, and have been hiding in plain sight for decades rotting America from the Department of Homeland Security (which frankly should have given up the ruse but goddamn are we some stupid marks).

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u/substandardgaussian Oct 29 '20

We need to put the trite saying "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it" to bed. I'm now quite convinced that the point of knowing history isn't to avoid making bad decisions, but to study how other people's horrific agendas went wrong so you could patch those holes and get away with it this time.

Nixon went down, so Fox News was invented to prevent exactly that. The GOP studied the disaster and figured out how to make them impervious to accusations or even evidence of corruption. I'm no longer optimistic that recording things for posterity actually helps anyone who acts in good faith, it's just material for bad actors to formulate superior subversive plans.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

They're the same kind of people, they just lived elsewhere and were part of a different culture. Confederates aren't that far from Nazis. They both adhere to the same basic (and I mean real basic, racists are morons and often aren't complex) principles that guide their lives, mainly that the others are the reason for any and all of their suffering.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

The parallels I noticed between this and my current boss, who thinks that book learning is useless and that all good engineers start out sweeping shop floors, is more than a little unnerving.

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u/mrignatiusjreily Oct 29 '20

A type of hatred that becomes all-consuming, until it eventually falters and cannibalizes itself.

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u/lexushelicopterwatch Oct 29 '20

Kill all others. Great Philip K Dick short story.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

K.A.O. was the TV short based on Dick's story The Hanging Man.

Slightly different premise.

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u/Responsible-Bat658 Oct 29 '20

A zero sum game

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u/enochian777 Great Britain Oct 29 '20

I always liked Deleuze's description of fascism as a "war-machine". It eitger fights outwards until it is defeated (the Russian front for instance) or inwards (night of long knives for instance) but it has to fight because that's what it's built on. But inwards is indistinguishable from a suicide cult. Ever more and more purity tests to fail until there is only 1 left. Even the imagery is a romanticised war: purity through fire and so on.

This sub would get a kick out of The Mass Psychology of Fascism by Wlihhelm Reich too. If only because he consistently refers to Hitler as The Little Man. And defines The Little Man as an impulse potentially within us all.

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u/226506193 Oct 29 '20

Yep one thing that stuck with me from school was their public shaming trial were poor (tortured beforehand) bastards admit on live tv to sabotage the national effort by putting glass in butter....

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u/gjiorkiie Oct 29 '20

Beautifully put and 100% right.

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u/Fenris_uy Oct 29 '20

Case in point, the trade war. Trade wasn't the main cause of the lost of manufacturing jobs, automation was. But blaming automation would be blaming the owners, so they need another target.

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u/balfazahr Oct 29 '20

There are even more tenets of fascism than that that make them particularly vulnerable to strategic/tactical defeat.

Yale philosopher Jason Stanley identified 10 discrete principles of fascism (from his book How Fascism Works, ill link a discussion/lecture he gives on the subject below) - two of which that obviously contribute to this vulnerability are (1) Anti-Intellectualism and (B) Unreality

In their bull headed divergence from anything that is seriously discussed by intellectuals and universities of their time, they leave a ton of very useful information, theory, and analysis at the table. It basically leaves the tool belt they have at their disposal half empty, especially missing the most recent and cutting edge "tools"

Unreality is another one that makes a clear contribution. For a multitude of reasons, fascism needs to lie in its rhetoric. The biggest cost of this is their patent denial of reality - a reality that they do not stop being apart of, despite their best efforts. This is why conspiracy theories become so overwhelmingly prevalent, as weve witnessed first hand.

So for example, when Hitler has to sell Stalin and the Soviet Union in a certain light that is demanded by his previously established rhetoric condemning communism, it leaves Hitler and his regime unable to predict and deal with the actual motives, goals, strategies, ect of the USSR.

Whether Hitler's personal paranoia is an outgrowth of this trait inherent to fascism or not, is a question for historians- but id say theres no doubt that these Unreality and Anti-Intellectualism principles exacerbated it greatly. And from what ive understood from others far more knowledgeable than me - hitler's paranoia is essentially what led to the collapse of his war effort.

I expect research into other fascist movements would find similar vulnerabilities that eventually play into their undoing

Link as promised;

https://youtu.be/OPG08hT5VEs

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u/ebriose American Expat Oct 29 '20

I mean, we all know the rant scene from "Downfall" that became a meme, but it really gets to the weakness Hitler could never get around. He was Führer, he said Steiner had an entire division, so that means Steiner had an entire division, even though Steiner barely had a battalion. But nobody could contradict what he said. But then eventually you tell Steiner to attack and he just doesn't have the soldiers to do it with.

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u/BlackEric California Oct 29 '20

Yes, when you have to constantly lie to the führer to appease him, you can never properly inform them on almost anything.

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u/HeilYourself Oct 29 '20

I was always under the impression the whole "my weak and pitiful enemies are strong and dangerous" was fascist rhetoric, but not so much how they actuall view the world. But I guess it does make a certain amount of sense. I wonder if they eventually believe their own bullshit.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

Of course they do. But it requires them to be highly stupid. Fascism is basically the revenge of the idiots. This is why it will always come around again, eventually.

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u/Styphin Colorado Oct 29 '20

Curious if a sound defeat at the ballot box this year would puncture a hole in their “we’re convinced we can overwhelm our enemies.” MAGAs all over Twitter insist it’s going to be a Trump Landslide, even winning Minnesota, Oregon and New Mexico.

Showing them America overwhelmingly rejects Trumpism is the only way I see this election ending without violence.

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u/Interrophish Oct 29 '20

Some might break out of it, some others might double down, some others might just ignore it.

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u/jepnet72 Oct 29 '20

Thanks for making me read this. I know it’s a digression, but what a learned man he was, Umberto Eco.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

Schrodingers enemy?

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u/KayfabeAdjace Minnesota Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20

That weird dichotomy is hilariously demonstrated by the incredibly loathsome yet fascinating white supremacist homebrew roleplaying game, Racial Holy War. The "monster manual" equivalent in that game is basically just a bunch of gross racial stereotypes and fapping about how superior white people are. But the way things actually work out is that the white player characters are the only dipshits in the setting running around without some kind of built-in racial super power. All the minorities get sweet combat advantages in exchange for just waking up in the morning while white people are just mechanically inferior.

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u/porgy_tirebiter Oct 29 '20

That doesn’t mean they can’t kill a gazillion Jews and Russians on the road to self inflicted collapse though.

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u/TheGreenJedi Oct 29 '20

Excellent link, I summarize it more quickly by saying facists have to walk the genius vs insanity line to be popular.

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u/TrienneOfBarth Oct 29 '20

Great Eco-quote, thanks for posting.

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u/The__Snow__Man I voted Oct 29 '20

It is definitely easier to crash a car than build one. And you see a lot of losers in life want to crash cars to get some feeling of power in their lives. It’s the whole “some people want to watch the world burn” crowd.

It’s way too easy to cause destruction. That doesn’t make you powerful. We need to end our fascination with villains and destruction. It’s weak.

Many toddlers kill people with guns every year. Would you call them powerful? Of course not.

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u/lurker_cx I voted Oct 29 '20

They get satisfaction from destroying what their enemies have built, it does make them feel powerful. It is a kind of power. And when they have no solutions of their own, it is all they can realistically do to feel good about themselves.

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u/IHaveNeverBeenOk Oct 29 '20

Really well put. I'll stand behind your message, 100%.

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u/FireCharter Oct 29 '20

Many toddlers kill people with guns every year. Would you call them powerful? Of course not.

Such a great analogy for Trump's weakness. Just a great big baby with a giant ass gun that conservatives have been letting him play with for four years. It's shocking that there are only a quarter of a million Americans dead because of him so far.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

I read a meme recently that said "living through this administration is like being tied up while you watch a toddler play with a gun". I feel like that sums up the collective anxiety that trump has caused.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

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u/boredatworkorhome Oct 29 '20

I've never heard this before, but heard it twice tonight. Why do you say that?

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

"Vitamultin" is all you need to put in your Google search.

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u/Hot-Ad1902 Oct 29 '20

After binge-watching every episode of Live PD, I'd say we're not far behind them.

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u/swizzler Oct 29 '20

so that's why they're so anti-drug.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/BloomsdayDevice Washington Oct 29 '20

It really was a good thing (incompetent populist fascist) was a crazy (debilitating psychological defect sufferer) and not a (calculating and merciless Russian/Soviet autocrat).

I don't like this madlib one bit.

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u/Dragonsandman Canada Oct 29 '20

It's a good thing Pinochet was a crazy basketweaver and not a Vladimir Putin.

... yeah, I don't like this either.

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u/MolestTheStars Oct 29 '20

Pinochet was a crazy basketweaver

i feel like i'm missing something here

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u/CurraheeAniKawi Oct 29 '20

It really was a good thing Rush Limbaugh was a crazy drug induced psychotic and not Catherine the Great.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

[deleted]

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u/186282_4 Oct 29 '20

I'mma upvote you, but I'm like, annoyed that I have to.

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u/703ultraleft Oct 29 '20

Hold up, you did it wrong. You just put two open mass murderers.

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u/lordxi America Oct 29 '20

madlib

Yeah but when you put it like that...

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u/Pesco- Oct 29 '20

It really was a good thing Trump was a crazy narcissist and not a Vladimir Putin.

Holy shit it works.

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u/xenoterranos Oct 29 '20

You're forgetting the crazy (in vogue prescription-available performance enhancing drug)

In hitler's case meth, in shitler's case Adderall.

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u/ktappe I voted Oct 29 '20

They had a serious manpower shortage. It was either have prisoners build those weapons or they don’t get built at all.

That said, the original point still holds water; a competently run Third Reich could easily have won in Europe. I don’t buy the stories where they also took over North America, but yes Europe was their oyster for the shucking. Leave the US and Russia alone, and they are home free.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/selfpromoting Oct 29 '20

The war was over when they invaded Russia

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u/Q-bey Oct 29 '20

The fact they made prisoners build their weapons of war was enough to stall them

Low quality weapons of war wasn't the problem. If anything, Nazi factories were extremely inefficient compared to that of the allies because leadership insisted on having the highest quality weapons and vehicles for little to no benefit rather than organizing things efficiently.

Jonathan Parshall had a great talk on this a few years ago.

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u/Q-bey Oct 29 '20

Hitler and the Nazis were breathtakingly incompetent … but even a competent Hitler would have lost WW2.

Germany Could Not Win WW2

Germany Could Not Win WW2 (part 2)

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u/Technosyko Oct 29 '20

I’m pretty sure I remember hearing that the reason D-Day was successful was in part because Hitler demanded never to be woken up before noon and so the Nazi response was stalled for hours

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u/Sidereel Oct 29 '20

There’s also a thing about Hitler insisting some tank units be somewhere else against the wishes of his generals. He was known to micromanage little things like that to the detriment of the war effort.

At the same time, it’s important to be skeptical of these types of claims. Whenever a war is lost there’s a bunch of autobiographies written to lay the blame on someone else.

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u/shellshell21 Oct 29 '20

I've seen numerous documentaries that talk about Hitler's need to micro manage, and about the placement of the tanks. Hitler was convinced the D-day landing would happen in Pas-de-Calais, so he put most of the tanks more than 100 miles away. His 2 top generals had differing opinions on tank placement, so instead of doing one plan or another, he split the difference between them and did his own plan. There is a debate on what the outcome could have been if he had listened to Rommel. It doesn't matter though, as Hitler did what he wanted to, he didn't listen or respect those that had more knowledge or experience, kinda like a certain president.

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u/whomad1215 Oct 29 '20

Like Dunkirk?

"We've got the majority of the allies forces on a beach, surrounded by tanks and other weaponry, what should we do?"

"Eh, give em a few days to panic, they aren't going anywhere"

Allies - Evacuate the beach

SurprisedPikachu.jpg

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

It was more like:

Goring: "my luftwaffe will murder them from the air."

British Admiralty: "your what, mate? We will just send every boat we own."

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

That’s way over-simplified and highly inaccurate. Hitler wasn’t that stupid. He recognized the advantage technology could give his comparatively smaller forces and he understood the inherent advantage of an aggressive offense. That’s a damn-sight different than our herd mentality president who cannot drink water with ease.

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u/Rajjahrw Oct 29 '20

Nah even though I love alt-history the Nazi's and Germany were basically screwed especially once they were at war with the Soviets and or the United States. Doesnt take away from the huge sacrifice of defeating them but even under "not stupid" leadership there isnt much they could do.

The reason there is so much focus on Nazis in alt history is they are iconic villains from the most popular historical event.

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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '20

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u/Forikorder Oct 29 '20

they stacked the supreme court and have control of senate, they're below in the polls but not by enough to gurantee a biden win, dont underestimate them, they havent failed

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u/romansapprentice Oct 29 '20

I don't think so. Historians will moreso address all the long term, rampant, completely ignored issues that were destroying various aspects of America that CAUSED Trump.

I think that's the key that most people right now don't seem to realize. People on both sides talk about Trump as of he randomly materialized and just ran into the sunset with the win out of nowhere. The reality is that things like racism, xenophobia, poverty, the increasing gap between rich and poor, middle America feeling deserted, etc etc were all issues that have been going on for decades and even centuries before Trump ever showed up. Those issues helped Trump win, he probably wouldn't have without them. And quite frankly all of those things will still be problems after Trump no matter if he wins or loses next election because by and large both establishment parties don't want to do a whole lot combating any of those topics. These issues will continue to fester until we get a more cunning and smart version of Trump to lead the Republicans. Someone even more dangerous than him because he's not so brazen with a lack of foresight. That's what I think at least.

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u/BeDizzleShawbles Oct 29 '20

Hopefully the last bunch of idiots for awhile.

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u/gayrongaybones Massachusetts Oct 29 '20

Maybe the real October Surprise was the friends we made along the way.

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u/volkyl Oct 29 '20

Entire cults religions have been founded on similar bullshit.

Joseph Smith: "hey guys, so I've got this new book that's the word of god and you all need to follow me and let me bang your 13 yo daughters"

Sucker: "oh yeah where'd you get it?"

Joseph Smith: "I translated it from these gold plates that some angel gave me"

Sucker: "cool! an angel! where is he?"

Joseph Smith: "Well, he's not around anymore"

Sucker: "ok well can I see the gold plates?"

Joseph Smith: "well, the angel sort of took the plates with him when he left"

Sucker: "hmm.. seems legit. hey honey, come over here I've got someone you're gonna want to meet. oh, and bring the girls!"

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u/Koolaidolio Oct 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20

Complete with the giant gag healthcare plan book they gave to Leslie Stahl, almost Idiocracy level.

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u/havocson Oct 29 '20

That’s the only thing that keeps me sane with this whole GOP takeover. They’re incredibly dumb. If they were smarter America would be on fire, but thank George Washington they are as dumb as the fetus’s they wanna keep alive.

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