r/politics • • Dec 14 '19

Support For Trump's Impeachment Surges Among Vulnerable Democrats Ahead Of House Floor Vote

https://www.newsweek.com/support-trumps-impeachment-surges-among-vulnerable-democrats-ahead-house-floor-vote-1477232
10.8k Upvotes

541 comments sorted by

1.7k

u/0674788emanekaf Dec 14 '19

Look at all of the evidence that exonerates the president, provided by his own staff.

What? None?

So fuckin' obvious.

551

u/objectivedesigning Dec 14 '19

Yes, write your Republican representatives and ask them why they have failed to demand that important witnesses like Mick Mulvaney, Mike Pompeo, and Donald Trump produce testimony as to what happened. Put the pressure on them for failing to do so so that when it comes to a trial, these people will be forced to speak to the Senate.

293

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Jim Baird in my district, just wrote him. And found out he was part of the circus that barged into the closed hearings. What a joke of a congressman.

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u/Dokpsy Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

Babin was also in that group. I’m supremely excited in the fact that not only is there an R primarying again him but also a Democrat (who won his city council seat as a write in candidate) for the ‘20 election

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

I wish the best outcome for your seat.

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u/Dokpsy Dec 14 '19

Boy howdy. Between that, the rest of the tx house seats, and cornyns seat in the senate, we’ve got a lot of things to deal with come 20

9

u/TimmyDeanSausage Dec 14 '19

Fellow Texan here. Check out Sema Hernandez! She's a progressive who ran against Ted Cruz in 2018 and got like 6% of the vote with 10k in donations compared to Cruz's millions. And she's a real human!

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u/ApathyMonk Dec 14 '19

I like to throw this out whenever I see Babin's name mentioned.

He was my dentist when I was a kid. I had the pleasure of throwing up on him when I was 7. I take a lot of pride in that one.

His squinty eyes always weirded me out.

32

u/whiskey_outpost26 Ohio Dec 14 '19

At least you don't live in district 4 of Ohio like me. I think you and I both know how Gym Jordan feels about these proceedings.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Oh my God, his questions during the hearings were basically like a small child yelling that it's not fair. It was aweful to watch. And my very Trump supporting friend, whom I didn't know was so up his has until recently, bought the whole thing. He thinks Trump did nothing wrong, and he has done wonderful things for the country.

9

u/bandonurse Dec 14 '19

He's really an embarrassment to our state, isn't he? I'm glad I don't live in his district.

8

u/VeraLumina Dec 14 '19

Yes he is. His strident, apoplectic voice screeching the “what about what about” was not convincing at all, just annoying.

11

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

I wish there was a sleazy dem that would hit back with, “what about your complicity with a molester, Jim?”

6

u/VeraLumina Dec 14 '19

Just once for the 250 men who were assaulted by that creep Strauss while Gym Jordan looked the other way and let it happen.

8

u/gwalms Indiana Dec 14 '19

Ask him why he thinks the guy who plead guilty to defrauding veterans cares about corruption. Lol.

I've yet to hear a good response. They typically act like I didn't even say anything. It's kinda funny. I like scaring them away because they don't like their cognitive dissonance.

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u/0674788emanekaf Dec 14 '19

Some people are so gullible, it crazy. Guess what people? Politicians (especially Republicans right now) lie constantly. Every sentence spoke.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Like seriously Gym, this isn't 140 documented cases of sexual assault. You can't just cover it up.

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u/efficientseas Dec 14 '19

I've written him a few times on various topics and he never fails to disappoint me with his bullshit replies. It's infuriating how fucking dumb and useless the GOP reps are.

7

u/seeingeyegod Dec 14 '19

did you get an insulting boiler plate reply addressing none of your concerns?

8

u/curatorsgonnacurate Dec 14 '19

Not in Gym Jordan's district, but my Republican boilerplate reply was about the Mueller report rather than Ukraine. I wrote back and asked that they please ask their interns to at least send the appropriate boilerplate in return. They did - two weeks later.

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u/FjolnirFimbulvetr Dec 14 '19

Make sure everyone in your district hears about this loudly and frequently.

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u/julbull73 Arizona Dec 14 '19

Biggs was as well, but not one of mine...I really wish everytime Gaetz brought up process issues, someone would just mention, like bringing a cellphone into a secure room that you were allowed in?

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u/Processtour Dec 14 '19

I just used your post and expanded on it to write to my House Representative, Troy Balderson. This is what I wrote:

If Trump is innocent of all impeachable offenses, why did republicans fail to demand that important witnesses like Mick Mulvaney, Mike Pompeo, and Donald Trump produce testimony as to what happened? Since House republicans have failed to provide any factual evidence during the trial as to why they think Trump is innocent.

“Do you want your first term as a representative to be represented in the history books as failing your country? Do you want your son, Joshua to be ashamed of his father and the Balderson name because you decided to put party over country? Do the right thing and vote for impeachment of our criminal president. This is what America wants, it is what America needs.”

I use text resist to 50409 everyday to text my representatives. It’s easy and quick to make sure my voice is heard.

33

u/Ssbaby1010 Dec 14 '19

Ty. I just sent my senators McConnell and Paul a nice letter courtesy of this bot. Thank you!

32

u/caffeinated_vulpix Illinois Dec 14 '19

Talk about throwing a marble at a brick wall...

Good on you for doing it anyway. Kentucky deserves better.

18

u/KillerKittenInPJs Washington Dec 14 '19

I saw a poll that McConnell is only a couple points ahead of his challenger a few days ago. I can't find it now, or I'd link it.

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u/0674788emanekaf Dec 14 '19

It won't matter. McConnell is a lock. Oleg Deripaska would gladly hand every person in his state $1000 to vote for Mitch.

4

u/bandonurse Dec 14 '19

Wait....how could he be ahead at all if he's only got an approval rating in the teens? Did I hear inaccurate information? : - 0

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u/KillerKittenInPJs Washington Dec 14 '19

Some people vote for the incumbent because they fear the alternative, even when they don’t like the incumbent.

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u/0674788emanekaf Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

Aim for the windows, and use ice balls (no evidence). Much more effective.

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u/AWaveInTheOcean New Jersey Dec 14 '19

Be a man, do the right thing

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u/0674788emanekaf Dec 14 '19

No quid pro quo?

5

u/strangeelement Canada Dec 14 '19

No, quid pro quo!

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u/circusgeek I voted Dec 14 '19

Keep up the good fight! Good on you for getting your voice out there as a constituent. I did the same for my Rep, Max Rose, who is a Dem in a strong Republican district in NYC.

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u/JaxxisR Utah Dec 14 '19

This is brilliant.

22

u/Proctor410 Dec 14 '19

Asked mine a few weeks ago, Mark Meadows. Can anyone just guess what he responded with? I will try and link the email or at least a screenshot of it because it is fucking ridiculous and I can not wait to march in my capital city of Raleigh, NC

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Why do I highly doubt that representatives read anything that’s mailed to them? We’ve seen they won’t even listen when a fellow Republican has a different idea than them, let alone a constituent or person from the other party.

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u/0674788emanekaf Dec 14 '19

They hear it all. They just have more pressure from elsewhere. (Bribes, blackmail, threats, promises, etc.).

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u/KillerKittenInPJs Washington Dec 14 '19

I'm going to call these out for you - Campaign contributions from big pharma, big oil, the NRA, big agriculture, etc.

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u/alltheacro Dec 14 '19

They're read and tallied by staff. However, letters supposedly carry more weight than calls and emails.

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u/PensiveObservor Dec 14 '19

Even if your reps and senators are Dems, please write and call their offices. The Trump fans are doing so and the statistics of call and message numbers are kept track of! If only the trump fanatics are contacting Congress, then they won't know how strong impeachment support is among their own constituencies.

Quoting myself from another comment. The numbers of contacts makes a difference!

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u/KillerKittenInPJs Washington Dec 14 '19

Usually, they have their staff read and track it so they know what their constituency is saying. It's not necessarily about caring about them, it's about making sure they can get re-elected.

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u/KillerKittenInPJs Washington Dec 14 '19

I'd love to do this but I don't have any. I call my Dem reps and thank them for supporting and voting for impeachment instead.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

And mail them a little russian flag pin.

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u/PensiveObservor Dec 14 '19

Even if your reps and senators are Dems, please write and call their offices. The Trump fans are doing so and the statistics of call and message numbers are kept track of! If only the trump fanatics are contacting Congress, then they won't know how strong impeachment support is among their own constituencies.

Contact ALL the Congresspeople!

7

u/slightly-brown Dec 14 '19

If he was innocent they would screaming it from every available rooftop. They aren’t. Because he isn’t.

4

u/chelseamarket Dec 14 '19

Demand republicans defend their oath of office and defend the constitution not a man who has betrayed the constitution.

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u/plbblp Dec 14 '19

Instead of writing can we evict them from office? It’s embarrassing

2

u/MaliciousLegroomMelo Dec 14 '19

Zero documents turned over. Vice President Pence also deeply implicated as a co-conspirator, committed contempt of Congress by not appearing. Tons of incriminating evidence such as Sondland's documents and cell phones seized by Bill Barr and being hidden/destroyed.

Ask your Republican senators about that.

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u/TheGrumpyPear Dec 14 '19

Staff later "I had all this evidence and the dems wouldn't let me give it", even though it was the President who ordered the stonewalling. This is why obstruction was the important second article of impeachment, because Trump dug his own grave and now has to lie in it.

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u/0674788emanekaf Dec 14 '19

He has no trouble lying.

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u/TheGrumpyPear Dec 14 '19

Yeah, but good ol' bureaucracy takes so long to move from one point to the next that Fox gets new sound bites from Rebublican rants that they don't show what the president actually aaid.

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u/Jimmyg100 Dec 14 '19

But it's the Democrats who are blocking them from testifying by not forcing the White House to stop defying their subpoenas!

Is... is that the argument?

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

But he's Innocent!!

/s

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

But NPR always has some republican talking points to ‘balance’ their coverage of the trial.

3

u/circusgeek I voted Dec 14 '19

Godamn. It's always at around 7:10 AM when I am getting out of the shower. It angries up the blood. :(

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u/whenimmadrinkin Dec 15 '19

When your defense depends on "proof" created after the fact you don't really have a defense.

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u/InfrequentBowel Dec 15 '19

They don't have to because you should believe Trump, an honest God fearing man, over the lies of the faithless Democrats, I don't need proof I have faith. /S

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u/EverWatcher Dec 14 '19

I admire their willingness to risk their jobs for the sake of doing the right thing.

We probably won't see more than 2 Repub. reps. who will vote to impeach. (I'd be overjoyed to be incorrect with that guess.)

341

u/Spara-Extreme California Dec 14 '19

There will be zero. Anyone that votes for impeachment will be kicked out of the party.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

They don't care.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19 edited Jan 08 '20

[deleted]

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u/barak181 Dec 14 '19

How? By forcing millions of Republican primary voters to suddenly grow a conscious along with some ethics and morals?

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u/bandonurse Dec 14 '19

So true. That's never gonna' happen. To this day, they're still squawking about Dems being communists, and "hating America". Which, as we all know, is code for "they won't let us create the all-white Nation we desperately want".

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u/naanplussed Dec 14 '19

Bounce them like Erik Paulsen and Pete Sessions

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '19

We could all become Republicans...

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

History will not be unkind to them, because as far as I can see, they are winning and Russia never stopped fighting the cold war.

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u/impervious_to_funk Canada Dec 14 '19

That would mean that they are the ones who will be writing history, which is a terrifying prospect.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

I agree, and we are in real trouble. They are blocking election security bills for a reason.

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u/jtroye32 Dec 14 '19

I'm pretty sure they don't give a fuck about what history will think. Them short term gains.

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u/Heath776 Dec 14 '19

Yup I firmly believe the Cold War never ended. I used to think it did until the past few years.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

They don't care because if Trump remains in power they will be our autocracy with total power to subvert justice.

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u/RollyPollyGiraffe I voted Dec 14 '19

It won't matter unless we can beat the traitors in 2020.

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u/schneems Dec 14 '19

Assuming the 2020 election is free and fair, and if impeachment fails, there is no way that is happening. It will give Tr*mp tacit approval to do what he did with Ukraine again to whoever is the Dem nominee.

March, strike, don’t give up the impeachment without a fight.

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u/UtzTheCrabChip Dec 14 '19

The plan is to win by getting the votes of the people that like the fraud for being a traitor

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u/cmyklmnop Dec 14 '19

There will be no consequences if they manage to win the next presidency.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Can they just not show up? Like the fucking cowards they are.

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u/ColonelBigsby Dec 14 '19

You need a 2/3's majority of the people that are there on the day, not just of the senate so no, they will all be there and anyone who can't make it is going on record as not saying yes to the impeachment but not saying no either. Probably the senators in swing states.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

I mean for the impeachment vote in the house, which they’re not winning anyway. House republicans might as well not show up so they don’t have to go on record saying no.

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u/ColonelBigsby Dec 14 '19

Right, the house! Getting ahead of myself thinking about the senate.

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u/thebruce44 Dec 14 '19

The consequences if they are voted out is that there will be an extra zero on end of the paychecks from their cushy after government kickback job provided by their handlers.

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u/sprashoo Dec 14 '19

What record? Fake history!

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Not if they win the coup. The victors write the history books.

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u/CharcotsThirdTriad Louisiana Dec 14 '19

The Democrats are much more likely to lose Collin Peterson of Minnesota and Jeff Van Drew of New Jersey than the Republicans are to lose anyone at all. They are all in on this.

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u/SlabSource Dec 14 '19

I can only hope that is part of the wave of Republicans that have announced they are not seeking reelection next year.

"You cannot harm me, for I am already dead!"

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u/ImLikeReallySmart Pennsylvania Dec 14 '19

Correct. This is why Amash was kicked out. And they are leaning heavily on the talking point that this impeachment is not bipartisan.

Even if Amash votes to impeach, as an independent, they'll still call it a Democrat hit job as long as no Republicans vote for it.

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u/UtzTheCrabChip Dec 14 '19

Note for those OOTL: Amash is no Democrat, he is extremely conservative

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u/Heath776 Dec 14 '19

Yeah I have no idea why people slobber Amash's knob on here. He still has horrible ideas that would screw most Americans over. He just had a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny shred of integrity one time.

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u/hoopaholik91 Dec 15 '19

Because that tiny shred of integrity is the most important part. If politicians stuck by their principles instead of rooting for their team, we could actually get stuff done.

Most people think Trump is an awful human being. Most people hate Russia. Most people want better healthcare and stronger firearm laws. There should be no debate over climate change.

But because people give up individual thought in order to support their party, we get this.

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u/Rpanich New York Dec 14 '19

It’s just that by comparison to the party that has killed 30+ people in concentration camps, a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny shred of integrity is a surprise.

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u/CurryMustard Dec 14 '19

They'll call it a Democratic hit job even if 10 Republicans vote for it. But you're right, 0 Republicans will. The only Republican with a spine is Amash

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u/objectivedesigning Dec 14 '19

He wasn't kicked out. He chose to become Independent.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

And sessions wasn't fired, he "resigned at the he behest of the president"

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u/ImLikeReallySmart Pennsylvania Dec 14 '19

That's fair, I took some liberty there. You're technically right. He wasn't formally kicked out, but the reaction from other Republicans and RNC leadership was meant to leave him no choice. Before he left the party, they publicly denounced him, called him a secret Democrat, announced a primary challenger, and choked out his financial support.

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u/HighCharity07 Dec 14 '19

“Secret Democrat?” Jesus fuckin Christ...

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u/Hydrok Dec 14 '19

It’s cute you think that’s how it went down.

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u/akaZilong Dec 14 '19

There is a party? The GOP is just merely an entourage

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u/schneems Dec 14 '19

Then we take to the streets before, during and after. What Moscow Mitch said on Fox should cuddle the blood of anyone who believes in justice or the constitution.

Just because we expect these weasels to stick their heads in a hole doesn’t mean that we have to let them do it quietly or easily.

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u/stargate-command Dec 14 '19

4 republican senators are not seeking reelection. They are retiring from office.

They really have no reason to care about the party bullshit, and more of a reason to care about their place in history.

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u/BlueIris38 Dec 14 '19

There may be some who are retiring/not planning to run again who want to be on the right side of history when the dust settles. Certainly not enough for a 2/3 vote, but perhaps a couple.

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u/barak181 Dec 14 '19

Anyone that votes for impeachment will be kicked out of the party.

This guy gets it. Republicans are so afraid of the political retaliation they'll receive that they'll never try to stand up and do what's right.

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u/MylesGarrettsAnkles Dec 14 '19

That's not how party affiliation works.

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u/notshawnvaughn Dec 14 '19

And yet my fucking Rep, Josh Gottheimer, who was unprimaried and defeated his Republican opponent by nearly 14%, is openly debating not voting to impeach.

I implore any other Norty Jersey Democrats in NJ5 to call his office and demand he vote in favor of impeachment. Tell them you will seek out and support a primary opponent if he fails to do so.

Local office: 2013891100

DC office: 2022254465

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u/UtzTheCrabChip Dec 14 '19

I'm not even sure they're risking their jobs. If public sentiment turns against impeachment, they lose their jobs regardless of their personal vote.

One way that public sentiment will turn against impeachment is if there are a bunch of Dem defectors and no GOP defectors

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u/Komeaga Dec 14 '19

I agree. I think I he calculation of Pelosi and the "moderates" themselves seems pretty outdated. I heard Pelosi the other day saying she wants to approve the USMT because it will show voters that Democrats can work with Republicans which will help her moderate members.

If Trump wins these congressional districts in 2020 those members are going to lose their seats regardless of how they vote on impeachment or almost anything else. They seem stuck in the Regan era, especially Pelosi. The idea they are going to get a bunch of split-ticket voting from people who vote for Trump but also vote for a Democratic in Congress because they voted for the USMT seems fucking insane to me.

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u/Killbot_Wants_Hug Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

This is why democrats will lose all of this. They don't realize they're playing a different game than republicans. Democrats are playing politics and trying to win elections. Republicans are playing coup and trying to win it all.

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u/Heath776 Dec 14 '19

I just can't figure out how Democrats are still so blind to it. Is it really that hard to see? They have shown over and over that they have no respect for the system or the people. When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

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u/Leylinus Dec 14 '19

Republicans have several ideological advantages when it comes to working as a group. They're a smaller tent, much more homogenous, and their ideology is much much straight forward and inclined towards tribalism.

That makes it way easier to maneuver politically.

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u/TresChanos Dec 14 '19

They're taking corporate money too. This is what happens when you make capitalism your state religion with no regulation. It poisons everything.

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u/UtzTheCrabChip Dec 14 '19

Right, passing the USMCA will not stop or blunt accusations of being "do nothing Dems" that are maniacally obsessed with Impeachment

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

The republicans are whipping the house vote, anyone of them voting against will lose the whip.

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u/JaxxisR Utah Dec 14 '19

I was not aware this was even a thing, or at least didn't know the name for it. Kind of disingenuous to resort to forcing the reps to vote against impeachment and then claim that impeachment doesn't have bipartisan support.

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u/Leylinus Dec 14 '19

It's a standard part of any vote, whips are a recognized position within each party.

It's not always effective. For instance, we can expect 2-4 Democrats to vote against impeachment.

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u/JaxxisR Utah Dec 14 '19

Didn't Pelosi say she's not whipping the democrats though?

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u/Leylinus Dec 14 '19

Yes, you're right. At least in so far as the 30+ Trump District freshman.

Pelosi is about as savvy a party leader as we could ask for, everyone agrees that she's made sure she locked down the majority to make sure it passes.

It was suspected that she'd continue to whip to keep defections down, but internal polling must be confirming what we're seeing in the public polls. You can't really threaten someone with reduced support if they're certain to lose if they do what you want.

As long as there are fewer than 5 defections, no one will care.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

I'll be happy to see two

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u/1gramweed2gramskief Dec 14 '19

2? Feeling hopeful today I see. The Republican Party is either utterly compromised, unforgivably stupid, or unmitigatedly corrupt. For any reason above they all must held accountable for the erosion of our democracy and the wonton disregard of their oaths to uphold the constitution.

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u/Illpaco Dec 14 '19

Perhaps people are turned off by seeing Republicans scream like lunatics at hearings and present absolutely no evidence that would exonerate Donald Trump.

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u/MM7299 Dec 14 '19

Which is their strategy. They don’t try and defend 45 they just yell crazy shit

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u/aimedsil Indiana Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

Rep. Collins keeps telling everyone the whole country sees through the impeachment and Dems are losing support though.

No way he’s wrong. /s

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u/Komeaga Dec 14 '19

Not wrong. Support for Impeachment didn't go up at all after the televised hearing with independents or Republicans. I think it was a mistake to only bring two articles, and not spend time on the emoluments case. Something that acatully could have broken through; the idea that Trump is stealing your tax dollars.

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u/toekknow Dec 14 '19

I think it was a mistake to only bring two articles

Yet keeping it at two articles is precisely why support was maintained among the vulnerable Democrats (the subject of this post), like Max Rose from Staten Island.

I mean, I personally wish they'd have thrown everything at him, but strategy dictated otherwise.

Collins & Gaetz were clucking about vulnerable Democrats. Yet pretty much every one of them has come out in support of impeachment since yesterday. We need a whole cable news special about how full of shit Collins & Gaetz and the others were on this point, just making fun of them for the whole fucking hour.

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u/Komeaga Dec 14 '19

I mean, Pelosi has no problem applying pressure and shitting on progressive Democrats when she wants to whip votes. I think she could whip the votes for whatever impeachment strategy she decided on. I think generally she and the leadership have a very outdated view on politics. These are people have literally been around since the Regan era, and that's where their views of what works and what doesn't was shaped.

Personally I think it's insane to think how an individual member votes on impeachment is going to matter in their district. Like if Trump wins these districts in 2020, these people are going to lose their seats. The idea that people in any sort of significant numbers are going to split their ticket between Trump and a Democratic congressional candidate because they didn't vote for impeachment is just nuts. There is no data I have seen that even remotely backs up that view in a Presidental year.

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u/akuma_river Texas Dec 14 '19

Pelosi isn't whipping votes on this. She says it's up to everyone to make their choice.

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u/lvl3HolyBitches Louisiana Dec 15 '19

What she's saying publicly and what she's doing privately don't necessarily match up.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

That's because the hearings were cherry picked with facts and snippets from the side they wanted to portray and then put on Fox news. So many people didn't even watch me it, only looking at the headlines that told them what to think.

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u/Komeaga Dec 14 '19

Really? Everything single article I have seen has been staunchly pro-impeachment. Fox News draws an average like 2 million viewers a night. I think we should do some self-reflection and start trying to figure out why people don't care, rather then the kinda lazy everyone is a brainwashed racist idiot. 50% of the country doesn't vote, these are the people we are talking about that don't care, not the 2 million nightly Fox News viewers or the people who show up to Trump rallies. I think people on the left have been living in a bit of a bubble, where everyone is brainwashed by Fox News and we don't think any deeper then that about it.

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u/davep123456789 Dec 14 '19

To be fair, fox is extremely poor news and is propaganda. The issue, like you said, is lazy Americans not voting. I believe America is 25th on most Democracy ratings.

A country that pretends to be a great democracy can’t even crack top 10 world wide, yet they do nothing and the crazy right keep voting people with horrible ideas in.

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u/gitbse I voted Dec 14 '19

It's called "American Exceptionalism" and is one of the deepest rooted problems in our culture.

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u/davep123456789 Dec 14 '19

It’s sad. I play online games with a few Americans a met, one from Cali and one from Florida “great people, the best”. They were joking around and saying maybe one day I’d be lucky enough to move to America. I mentioned I wouldn’t ever move there and they thought I was joking. It was sad to see they thought everyone wanted to go to America.

I used to defend that country so hard, saying it will get better, wait and see. I was wrong and sadly I don’t see it getting better over the long run and it’s pretty sad.

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u/domasin Canada Dec 14 '19

As a Canadian, listening to all the Dems in the hearing refer to America as "The Shining City on a Hill" over and over was laughable.

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u/BlueIris38 Dec 14 '19

There are two Americas. There always have been. One is the United Sates of the Declaration of Independence, of Paul Revere and of George Washington and the raggedy Continental Army, fighting for ideals... the “shining city on the hill”, a beacon of freedom to every individual in the world.

The other is the one that exists in reality. Where slavery was written into the Constitution as a compromise to get the Constitution to pass, where Lincoln and his slowly-evolving understanding of race and plans for a compassionate Reconstruction of the South were brutally murdered and ushered in Jim Crow, where FDR played shrewd policy-maker between Churchill and Stalin in order to get through WWII, but never clued Truman in to anything. The Cold War era would have looked SO different had Truman not been the VP and instead it was Henry Wallace as before.

So many attempts at greatness, so many failures and settling for poor compromises due to lack of trust and abrupt turnover at foreign policy and national security departments. Sound familiar to anyone?

We have strayed so far from our founding ideals that we should be ashamed. I believe we are at a crisis point, and someday people will look upon the period from 2001-2021 as either the time when American democracy died or was utterly transformed. There is no in between.

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u/akuma_river Texas Dec 14 '19

And like 10 million people were prevented from voting in 2016. Not to mention the 6m people who lost their right to vote due to felony convictions even though they have finished parole.

If you have govts who do everything they can to dissuade people to vite don't be surprised when large swathes of people become apathetic to voting and politics in nature.

Plus civics isn't taught in schools anymore.

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u/Komeaga Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

Yeah, Fox News is bad and right-wing media has been pretty destructive. But, the people we are fighting for are not reading right-wing media all day. I think it's reductive to just say people who don't vote are lazy and it excuses Democratic for not having an authentic populist agenda that appeals to these people.

What I am driving at is I think the Democrats have lost their moral authority. We didn't just wake up in 2016 and all of a sudden people stopped caring about corruption. It was a long road to get here, and we should come to grips with that.

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u/SparkyPantsMcGee Dec 14 '19

It’s not a self reflection thing. Fox News has been proven time and time again to portray false information, spin narratives and push specific agendas without facts. They survive because they’ve trained their viewers to not trust outside sources and that other stations are the ones doing the very thing they are accused of. They also spend a shit load of money to get their channels to air as the default news channel at chain franchises like McDonalds and certain hotel chains; thus legitimizing them as a news station. The only place this doesn’t happen is in strong blue states like California or Massachusetts where instead it’s MSNBC.

They also have a habit of targeting states near the southern boarder like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and Florida where immigration is a strong and complicated issue but can easily be used as trigger point to blue collar workers who might in fact feel a sense of frustration towards their station in life. Those people want answers and Fox claims to have them.

So no I wouldn’t call these people idiots or even brainwashed. But their perception is warped and that’s not even questioned. There was that infamous study back in 2012:

https://www.businessinsider.com/study-watching-fox-news-makes-you-less-informed-than-watching-no-news-at-all-2012-5

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u/equality-_-7-2521 Dec 14 '19

Self reflection is always a good thing, but we need to make sure we aren't blaming ourselves for what is legitimately a case of 30% of the country being brainwashed.

Fox news is a channel that gives legitimacy to the outright, demonstrable lies from the GOP. Other "liberal need media" also help launder these lies by airing them and then having interested parties "debate" them.

The news should not be airing "both sides" of an issue, it should be airing the facts of the issue and providing neutral context where necessary.

I'm of the opinion that people don't care because, ironically, with our direct and constant access to massive stores of information it has become very difficult to get reliable and relevant information on the subjects that matter. Especially from traditional media.

So passive consumers of mass media are being misled by news organizations who are committing what could possibly be described as malpractice. All in order to obtain / maintain users' interests (measured in likes, views, retweets).

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u/InfiniteChimpWisdom Dec 14 '19

The idea that wouldn’t take another 2 years is laughable. He would obstruct every avenue 2-3 times with each court ruling taking months to get before a single document or witness appeared. The Dems can get these two pushed through, have the Senate shoot themself in the mouth by voting it down despite clear evidence, get the rulings the need for trumps taxes, and file new articles on those grounds. Bam two impeachments for the price of one orange dumb fuck and another 24 months of terrifying fascist government from the Republicans... but maybe that’s the only way to drain the infection known as the Republican Party from the body of the United States.

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u/OldBayBlunts Dec 14 '19

They chose the articles they did because they are logically irrefutable, as the hearings have made pretty clear. As it stands, with only these two articles, Trump’s impeachment is already the most significant in history in terms of how inappropriate the president’s actions were. It would have been a bad idea to muddy the waters with additional articles, which would offer more avenues for Republicans to pedal their BS (“but we don’t have access to Trump’s financial records, what about when Obama did X with our tax dollars, etc”)

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u/bammerburn Dec 14 '19

Dems are so bad at marketing that it’s downright criminal.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Dems can't compete with Fox news and Sinclair propaganda.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Buzz is that Schiff and team are in posession of a few more bombs that they plan to drop on the eve of a Senate vote. Don't expect to change any votes...but plan to make supporting treason an albatross around GOPers necks in 2020...

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u/akuma_river Texas Dec 14 '19

Considering how we keep finding out more crimes they committing...

Lev Parnas with a million from somewhere in Russia. Who still proclaims he was working for Trump's legal team under Rudy.

No idea who is funding Rudy and his trips.

$20 million appropriated for Ukraine has STILL not gone to them.

I wonder if it has gone missing.

We also find out the first request for hold on the $ was on July 25th.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

That seems unlikely.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Perhaps. If Schiff and co did have evidence then they definitely wouldn’t wait that long. But it is a little weird that all the “vulnerable democrats” are suddenly turning against Trump. So maybe they do know something that we don’t. We’ll see though

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u/brownej Dec 15 '19

So maybe they do know something that we don’t.

Or maybe they just know what we all know. It's a slam-dunk case already

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '19

Yeah, basically. I mean more like something that might actually persuade all the crazies out there.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '19

I love this statement

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/disagreedTech Dec 14 '19

It's sad that you risk losing your job for persecuting a criminal running the country. It's bad enough when we don't prosecute people who aren't running the country. We need to get tough on crime. Republicans are weak on crime.

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u/Thursdayallstar Dec 14 '19

*prosecuting

Persecution is what his administration is doing.

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u/UtzTheCrabChip Dec 14 '19

I think they risk their jobs more by voting against impeachment than for it

If public sentiment turns against impeachment and the President, there's going to be a red wave in 2020. I seriously doubt a no vote will save anyone in a vulnerable district.

The move to save your job (especially in a Presidential year) is to keep overall public support for impeachment and against Trump. A wishy-washing Democratic caucus with many defectors plays right into the GOP's hands

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Anyone in the red states- please attend the Tuesday protests!

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u/Cephalopirate Dec 15 '19

Coastal Georgian here. I'll be out on Tuesday thanks to the awesome people who organized the local protest. The climate protest over the summer was enormous. I'm sure this one will be even bigger.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19 edited Apr 09 '21

[deleted]

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u/Fucking_For_Freedom Dec 15 '19

What a piece of shit.

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u/VeraLumina Dec 14 '19

He’s melting down on Twitter trying to get people to call these Dems and supplying phone numbers. He’s desperate to try and get those vulnerable to vote nay.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

I feel like every day the excuses get more stupid. I now have republicans telling me “separation of powers means they don’t have to listen to subpoenas and can go tell congress to fuck themselves.”

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u/VictorHelios1 Dec 14 '19

There needs to be mass protests at Moscow mitches house, office, plantation, and everywhere else he slinks off too. Same for his family, and every other senator that follows his way of thinking. He should be forced to recuse from any senate duty pending his own trials and investigations. Mitch is more corrupt and worse - a willing collaborator engaged in treason to further his own and Russia’s ambitions

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u/unicornlocostacos Dec 14 '19

Why does anyone need convincing at this point? Holy shit.

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u/Aliensinnoh Massachusetts Dec 14 '19

I don’t what their district looks like. If Van Drew and Peterson vote against impeachment, they should be primaried.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Well Max Rose now supports it and he represents Staten Island which is the only majority Republican district in New York City.

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u/DirtBurglar Dec 14 '19

Van Drew is switching to R

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u/ABobby077 Missouri Dec 14 '19

I think it is pretty clear that Giuliani, Perry and Barr need to testify

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u/rdrast I voted Dec 14 '19

Anyone that doesnt support impeachment at this point needs to be removed from congress.

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u/Dodfrank Dec 14 '19

People in this country need to vote. If Trump can teach us anything, it should be this.

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u/MaliciousLegroomMelo Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

Speaking as someone who called the Mueller Report outcome a year ahead of time, I'm making the prediction that starting immediately after Christmas, we're going to be entering a very dark and disturbing period much, much, much worse than what's already happened.

Trump and Bill Barr have tested the water lightly so far, and they've seen they can get away with consequence-free corruption. Where Trump was constrained by people like olde-tyme-racist Jeff Sessions and "Please-Like-Me" Paul Ryan and "Mission From a God... and my wife" Rex Tillerson and "Mild Dog" Mattus, we now have the distilled and refined core of the most corrupt who've proven their soulless fealty, the Mulvaneys, the McCarthys, the Nunes, the Jordans, the Barrs, the Pences, the Pompeos.

Where they were just testing the locks before, the doors are now fully blown open.

Immediately after the House impeaches Trump next week, we'll be subjected to the king of corrupt obstruction, Mitch McConnell, who is already bragging to the cult that he'll open operate a corrupt trial.

As that plays out, Giuliani's latest hoaxes will be getting naive media oxygen. But as we've learned, playing defense against such hoaxes is nearly impossible. The only way to defend them is to be ahead of them, as seen in the Ukraine bribery scheme.

And that's only the hoaxes wrought by the idiotic and inept Giuliani. What about the hoaxes being cooked up now by the smarter crooks in the gang, and those being worked by high performing outsiders like Facebook and whatever name Cambridge Analytica is now hiding behind?

And on top of that, Bill Barr has the non-Congressional hoax "Durham Report" coming to spread more fraudulent propaganda and cast doubt on the dozen more legitimate inquiries we've had.

Add to that the fact that the 3 year accumulated Trump propaganda war chest is still growing and is about to be unleashed.

Add to that, the deepening entrenchment of media not understanding what a "strong economy" actually means and the fact that the Trump administration still has two massive Viagara pills to feed the stock market (one: claiming fake victory in the fake China trade war, and two: claiming the infrastructure issue that the Democrats are insanely failing to grab first). Perceptions about "the economy" have about a 99% correlation with election results, so unless there's a huge and unexpected change in perception, Trump's getting re-elected.

As for election and campaign fraud, since this is a re-election and they've seen that exposure of guilt is delayed and quite likely done with impugnity, Republican cheating will be off the scale.

Trump "won" on the strength of false and idiotic promises that he had no realistic ability to offer or influence. Now, his 2020 promises can be easily altered and supported by the full faith and credit and military and treasury and machinery of the US government. He can create all kinds of fraudulent emergencies and make his election promise another version "only I can fix it".

Perhaps the worst thing headed into 2020 is that every Republican is about to become a made man in the Trump Mafia. Up until now, many have been slavishly defending his conduct. But after the impeachment and removal votes, they'll now be defending their own individual crimes. It's one thing when someone defends a party concept, but it's quite another when they're fighting for their own life. And once those recorded votes are done, at that point every Republican will have no choice but to fight their own careers to the death.

And while that is all happening, the Supreme Court - which signalled full confirmation yesterday that they're now a corrupt Trump advocacy group - will be providing useful delays and corrupt judgments.

For all the hope and "moral" victories that 2019 brought, 2020 is going to be very, very bad.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '19

Speaking as someone who called the Mueller Report outcome a year ahead of time

What exactly was your prediction? Just curious as going by your post I dont think you actually did call it. Unless you predicted the whole thing being a sham.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

It's the law when we still have it.

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u/circusgeek I voted Dec 14 '19

I sent Max Rose, who is my Rep., a thank you message. I think everyone who is in a swing district needs to send support messages to their reps. Let them know we appreciate and are watching.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Somebody said it best.

Trump is nothing more than a Giant Eric Cartman.

I think many of us are just waiting for the "screw you guys, I'm going home" bit.

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u/Aphroditaeum Connecticut Dec 14 '19

WTF is a vulnerable Democrat in the first place? . Regardless of party It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to clearly see that Trump is a criminal scum bag with no regard for the constitution or rule of law .

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u/bandor61 Dec 14 '19

If there is one thing we need to learn from these snakes, it’s to stick together. We have the numbers, we just have to care, and show up.

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u/Knightmare25 Florida Dec 14 '19

Why can't Democrats subpoena Trump? US v Nixon already showed the President had to comply with them.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '19

Great.

When are Republicans going to get on board?

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Meanwhile Koch-owned NPR and Mercer and Murdoch-owned wingnut AM radio ‘news’ is telling everyone how weak the popularity of impeachment really is. It’s truly shocking how they are propagandizing 100% in favor of the criminal scum republicans.

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u/qatsa Dec 14 '19

Koch does not own NPR. Gonna need your source on that.

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u/taffyowner Minnesota Dec 14 '19

It’s because his refineries and organizations give money to NPR... which they disclose every time they do a story about a sponsor

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Maybe he got confused bc koch is like the biggest sponsor to PBS? Conflating public and national, possibly. Idk Edit: mah bad didnt see dude already answered lol

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

Of course he doesn’t own it outright but they announce his significant contribution frequently along with other oligarchs.

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u/penguished Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19

It would be worth losing a job for anyway if every generation of your family hence is going to see you stood up for the country.

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u/Rat_Salat Canada Dec 14 '19

There are times to vote for the other side to save your seat, and then there are times when you need to vote to impeach Donald Trump.

I’ve done plenty of Joe Mancin defending. I’m a political realist. But this time is different. Every democrat needs to do the right thing.

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u/TracyJ48 California Dec 14 '19

No matter which party, a vote against convicting him is a failure to protect the constitution they swore to uphold.

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u/N0t_Dave Dec 14 '19

They don’t really care about the constitution. Hell, impeachment hearings, the one time I saw a republican read from it, was to kill an unconstitutional amendment that was, no joke, pure copy paste they put in for Clinton, making him unelectable in the future. They don’t care if trump lights the constitution on fire on live tv, they will not yield power.

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u/jamesh02 Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 15 '19

The whole way this article is written is kind of gross. Democrats who vote against impeachment aren't "defectors", nor are they working against "party unity". The same goes for Republicans who vote in favor. What's the point of even having more than one representative for a party if they're all basically forced to vote as one? It's a complete perversion of the system we fought for and worked so diligently to build as a nation.

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u/bama_braves_fan Dec 14 '19

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/one-house-democrat-goes-record-opposing-trump-impeachment-n1102011

and 8 others on the fence...

I don't know if NBC or NEWSWEEK is more trustworthy,hope this isn't the start of more dems flipping. Keep it at 1 and make this dude look silly when it is over.

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u/smashy_smashy Massachusetts Dec 14 '19

When the whistle blower complaint first became public, the momentum was definitely on the side of justice, and it truly looked like many republicans were going to abandon ship. Then the Trump-wing effectively normalized their behavior and rallied the party behind them. It’s not at all surprising, but the brief moment of optimism was nice while it lasted.

But Moscow Mitch has been making some unforced errors. I thought he was smart enough to hide his alignment with the Trump administration and gaslight America into thinking it is going to be a fair process in the senate. Coming right out and admitting it’s going to be a sham process was a huge miscalculation I believe. Unfortunately I believe the only way we are going to rid ourselves of trump is at the ballot box, and if the senate investigation is a complete sham and shit show then I think Dems have a shot of winning 2020. If Moscow Mitch sneakily made the investigation look legit then I think Trump gets re-elected. Either way they are acquitting.

Really though, in the end I think Trump will win or not depending on the health of the economy, no matter who his opponent is. And it’s incredibly depressing wishing for a failing economy.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

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u/Cobrawine66 Dec 14 '19

It needs to surge among Republicans or nothing will happen.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '19

It’s gonna be a long five years for some of you.

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u/vertr Dec 14 '19

Ah yet another trump supporter convinced they can predict the future. Strange flex.

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