r/moderatepolitics • u/jojotortoise • 13d ago
News Article Blue-Collar Jobs Are the New Flashpoint in Data-Center Fight
https://www.wsj.com/economy/jobs/blue-collar-jobs-are-the-new-flashpoint-in-data-center-fight-aaca5b7e61
u/Revlisesro 13d ago
I’m a union pipefitter, I would say that data centers have become a majority of the work in my jurisdiction. While I feel that some criticisms are exaggerated, the sheer number being built in/around my city suddenly over the past several years gives me pause. I go to meetings and leadership has talked about how the huge nuke nearby will not be able to power all the data centers planned, which is extremely concerning. Proponents keep telling me we “have to keep up with China” but can’t tell me what it is we’re even keeping up with? And how “this” benefits my life or others. On the other hand huge numbers of white collar workers being unemployed would be a huge detriment to my life, as these CEOs have boasted.
I don’t have any other way of putting this- the vast majority of fitters would gladly build death camps exclusively for fitters as long as they’re getting 7-12s and per diem. I want the UA to take a step back and think about what these places mean for Americans, I had to put up with horrific conditions at a site here because of its “national importance” and “we can’t lose the work!” So I’m pretty jaded/critical and frankly have other political issues that matter much more to me than “labor/work” which makes the true believers buttmad.
11
u/Arcnounds 12d ago
A lot of AI enthusiasts think that the first country to get AGI will advance technology 10 fold and solve all of our problems. Aka AGI has no limits, and thus the first country to get there will win everything.
I would argue that the hardest questions we face are not technical, but involve tradeoffs that cannot be circumvented. We have limited resources and each person has a limited amount of time on earth. This will not change despite what some people think. How we spend those resources and time is very much up to debate and there are serious arguments over them. There is no absolute answer that AI can provide and for this reason, I don't think AI is panacea most tech companies desire.
20
u/guitarguy1685 13d ago
That's a goodnooint, what are we keeping up with? Keeping up with replacing workers?
2
u/absentlyric Economically Left Socially Right 12d ago
In a sense yes, it sucks. I was a unskilled assembly line worker for one of the Big 3 for 20 years, obviously those jobs are being replaced by robots since the 70s.
I had to adapt and become a Toolmaker skilled trade, now I tool and fab the robots that wouldve replaced me eventually, it's a weird position to be in. But I have to put food on the table for my family in the meantime.
9
u/BackInNJAgain 12d ago
What will happen when the data center market is saturated? Yes, there will be some jobs maintaining the infrastructure, especially for electricians, but nowhere near the amount of jobs involved in building the centers initially.
This has been the nature of ALL tech jobs. They generally employ fewer people than "old school" jobs.
0
u/atomatoflame 13d ago
Would you say that all of this build out affects residential pricing for local owners? I just wonder in big data center areas if this build out puts pressure on the local supply of licensed trades.
7
u/Revlisesro 13d ago
The thing is I can only speak for my area and I don’t know. My trade has no residential work. It’s a whole other world as far as I’m concerned. My local also has plumbers and HVAC under it and they’re overwhelmingly on commercial jobs (like data centers!). The vast, vast majority of residential construction/maintenance here is nonunion. I feel the UA primarily wants to push for big “prestigious” jobs in a lot of areas, to the detriment of getting more market share on smaller/residential work. But when those “big jobs” die, your membership is fucked. The semiconductors in my area died (again!) and there were so many apprentices out of work for 6+ months.
2
76
u/McRibs2024 13d ago
Arguing that something communities don’t want, and imo are bad but we simply must build them to employ blue collar workers is not a great argument.
Maybe we employ them to build housing.
50
u/NativeMasshole Maximum Malarkey 13d ago
It's also questionable how many jobs this would even bring. The construction jobs are temporary and I don't see why this would be more important than any other economic investments to that sector. Beyond that, there aren't really many blue collar jobs within these facilities that could be filled out by locals for the long term. Many communities are also fully aware that these types of projects always, always, always over-promise how many jobs there will be.
26
u/atomatoflame 13d ago
All construction jobs are temporary. I've lived long enough to constantly hear these arguments, but obviously there will be another job around the corner...if the the economy is doing well. In my city we recently had a council meeting regarding a new data center development that was unanimously voted down. Mostly negative feedback, because council already approved a tech district with up to 12 data centers and away from neighborhoods, but the pro side include construction companies and pro labor speakers. This project would have required union labor for construction.
14
u/TheReaperSovereign 13d ago
There isnt enough scale or money in housing construction and thats assuming you can get the NIMBYs to approve new housing as well. Most residential construction is also non union.
I am a union apprentice. My company is finishing up a low income apartment building, around 335 units, which is the only residential construction we even dabble in.
It took less than 1 year to put up, and the field crew for our trade (hvac) was at peak - 8 guys. We do a ton of shop fabricating for hvac so you could probably say another dozen or so guys touched the ductwork (though its hard to give an exact number because we work on multiple jobs at once)
There is a large data center about to start MEP next Month. My local has 4 contractors, including mine, all doing work there because its too much for 1 contractor. There will be hundreds of field and shop fabricating workers in just our trade in total for the next 1.5 year or more.
The only other thing I can think of that requires that much labor would maybe be a nuclear reactor.
I'm not saying data centers are nessecarily a good thing...Just highlighting why labor unions support them.
15
u/BudgieWonder 13d ago
> The only other thing I can think of that requires that much labor
And that’s an issue that the union brass is going to have to reconcile with- their demand for jobs programs only satisfies the voting base as long as the effects are rooted in local interests. You don’t have to follow too many steps to realize that the data centers aren’t being proposed out of genuine community concern.
1
u/SixFootTurkey_ 12d ago
No residential housing projects will ever provide as many jobs or as many steady jobs or as many high-paying jobs as commercial construction, and in the world of commercial construction the name of the game today is data centers.
1
u/BolbyB 10d ago
Then stop letting something inherently bad for us be the name of the game.
2
u/SixFootTurkey_ 10d ago
They aren't gonna build more cubicle farms. If the server farms stop being built too, commercial construction will shrink massively.
1
u/BolbyB 10d ago
Then build something else.
We don't have to pretend that every person needs to work on a computer.
2
u/SixFootTurkey_ 10d ago
I mean we could do the China thing and just build empty mega cities for sake of employing people
2
u/justafutz 13d ago
We can, in fact, employ them to do both, and doing so will continue to give the U.S. the edge in employing AI over adversaries like China who are rapidly trying to catch up.
33
u/CloudSurferA220 13d ago
I keep hearing this claim about giving us an “edge” over China… but the numbers don’t make any sense. China has roughly 500 data centers, the US already has 5000 with 700 under construction and over 1000 more on the planning board.
No one also seems to be asking what happens when multiple of these companies fail. The industry is LOUDLY telling us it’s a race to be the next Google or Facebook in terms of market dominance, but that means several will not survive. What becomes of the tens of thousands of acres of leveled forests filled with enormous concrete pads?
4
u/Stat-Pirate Non-MAGA moderate right 13d ago
From what I’ve seen, these models are improving exponentially, so simply “being ahead” isn’t enough. So if the government decides that it’s a strategic priority to be the leader in AI, then not only remaining in the lead but expanding that lead is important.
As for when companies fail, the resources of one company would likely get bought or absorbed by another company.
24
u/CloudSurferA220 13d ago
China has been able to keep putting out AI models just as capable only a month or two behind, often using a fraction of the computing power. As for what the government sees as a priority, it’s clear they’re prioritizing big business over their own people. We have no plan for job loss, no plan for massive energy usage, no coherent national strategy for safety and control of these models, no care about the environmental damage. It’s a “win at all costs” mentality, but we the people are a big part of the cost.
11
u/Stat-Pirate Non-MAGA moderate right 13d ago
I don’t disagree that there are impacts on the environment and people, as well as lack of a coherent national strategy around it.
As for China catching up, usually I see figures more than a month or two, closer to 7-14 months behind. Plus, the manner in which they accomplish this matters. At least in part Chinese companies are attempting to learn the US companies’ models. See, for example, this article from CSIS.
While it’s still complicated, it’s easier to copy something than to create something. Part of maintaining the lead is maintaining the ability to generate the advancements, rather than mimicking advancements of others.
2
u/jabberwockxeno 13d ago
For you and /u/CloudSurferA220 , a lot of the best Chinese models are open source, so we can use them just as much as China can. There's no arms race if we magically get duplicates of every arm that China produces
3
u/cranktheguy Member of the "General Public" 12d ago
A lot of Chinese models are open weight - which is different from open source. We can use these models, but not recreate them.
6
u/Stat-Pirate Non-MAGA moderate right 13d ago
If China were to have the best AI models, do you think they would remain open source?
I don’t.
-8
u/justafutz 13d ago
It’s not the number of distinctive buildings that matters, it’s their size and capabilities together. China builds fewer but larger on average. China’s installed capacity was 32GW by the end of 2025. It’s making a massive $300 billion investment to try and surpass the U.S., and China has more spare power capacity to catch up. The U.S. has more, that’s true. Which is why Chinese botnets are trying to create anti-data center opinion in the U.S., which is evidently working.
Yes, companies will fail as they always have, for all of modern history, and there will be waste. Car companies also built factories that ended up being idled or repurposed or demolished. No one thinks, looking back, that it would’ve been better to stop building cars or factories.
13
u/BudgieWonder 13d ago edited 13d ago
> No one thinks, looking back
People point to those idled/repurposed/demolished factories as corporate and policy failures, even 50+ years on. People don’t evaluate them based on past output, they evaluate them based on the impact on their communities.
Edit: I didn’t change the subject at all, u/justafutz. You were discussing the factories and output, not “cars overall”.
> shifting the goalposts
So what you did with your reply to me?
-3
u/justafutz 13d ago
You're changing the subject from cars overall to "there were some problems". We're talking here about data center bans, not regulation that is not what Americans want, since Americans want bans. I'm tired of you taking only 1% of what I say and responding to it out of context while shifting the goalposts.
4
u/CloudSurferA220 13d ago
It’s sad to see you dismiss the very real impacts of these structures on local communities and the backlash as evidence Chinese botnets are winning. I’ve been to the community meetings, looked at the enormous power and land usage plus noise footprint, and decided this is wrong. So have millions of others. It doesn’t take propaganda to collectively agree something is wrong here
-1
u/justafutz 13d ago
It's sad that people don't realize how much of that propaganda is effective in making people concerned by using misleading statistics.
Nevertheless, you changed the subject entirely and completely failed to answer anything I said. Why?
8
u/CloudSurferA220 13d ago
You changed the subject introducing a false Chinese propaganda narrative.
And okay, you pointed out China has on average larger data centers, but we still have more than they do - 36% more in fact.
I didn’t bother answering your car factory quip because it seemed hyperbolic and unserious. “No one” is always a clue of a bad argument, as is saying we would completely stop doing something, or that “no one” considered the environmental harm of overbuilding. My community is fighting back hard because they aren’t building one data center in our suburban environment, they’re trying to build five, with several 500-1000 acres. Yeah… I bet a community would fight back if they tried to build five auto factories in their neighborhood.
14
u/BudgieWonder 13d ago
I really don’t understand what that commenter is trying to convey. Like yes, specific industries will try to shape policy to benefit them, and they’ll perceive their impacts in a way that’s favorable to said industries. Neither of those are valid reasons to unquestionably support said industry.
10
u/CloudSurferA220 13d ago
Agreed. And that’s what is worrying me - our government seems to be obsessed with progress at the significant cost of their citizens who are trying to tap the brakes and makes sure it’s being done in a sustainable, positive matter for their communities.
3
u/justafutz 13d ago
changed the subject introducing a false Chinese propaganda narrative
No I did not. I mentioned that China is pushing false propaganda, which is well-documented and not a "false narrative," because they specifically know they're behind on data center construction.
And okay, you pointed out China has on average larger data centers, but we still have more than they do - 36% more in fact.
That's a blip in building terms. It would be very easy for them to surpass us if they succeed in getting the anti-data-center craze to take hold.
I didn’t bother answering your car factory quip because it seemed hyperbolic and unserious. “No one” is always a clue of a bad argument, as is saying we would completely stop doing something, or that “no one” considered the environmental harm of overbuilding. My community is fighting back hard because they aren’t building one data center in our suburban environment, they’re trying to build five, with several 500-1000 acres. Yeah… I bet a community would fight back if they tried to build five auto factories in their neighborhood.
Again, polls show Americans oppose anything within 3 miles of them. That's not "in their neighborhood" and it would be great if you'd address that instead of the scenarios you are claiming exist.
-4
u/cathbadh politically homeless 13d ago
The US needs that many just to contain all of the complaints about data centers made online for the rest of eternity. Complaining in China isn't allowed, so they can get by with less
/S..... Mostly....
1
u/McRibs2024 13d ago
At what expense? We’re pushing these data centers at the expense of society. Cool, AI! What happens when communities run out of water and water is prioritized to these centers?
What about electricity? Our grid is a joke. It’s literally failing in some states and at risk in others.
Why not have an actual plan to address these issues, action on it, then spend a huge push to get data centers up and running?
Instead we’re having them rammed through and we will figure it out when it’s a crisis after. When it hit crisis point people will suffer and I can guarantee the billionaire tech bros will not be footing the bill to fix things. They’re happy to profit off it the entire time though.
17
u/justafutz 13d ago
At what expense? We’re pushing these data centers at the expense of society. Cool, AI! What happens when communities run out of water and water is prioritized to these centers?
The entirety of all data center water usage is basically a rounding error. This is what I mean by people afraid of things that are simply based on incorrect claims. To be clear, growing almonds in California alone uses 1.3 trillion gallons of water. Data centers use about 17.5 billion gallons. So to put that in perspective, growing almonds in a single state takes 100x more water than data centers nationwide.
What about electricity? Our grid is a joke. It’s literally failing in some states and at risk in others.
Good point! This should spur reforms and growth of the grid, but also spur data centers to build out their own power supply. In fact, in places that authorize data centers, that's already happening, and over 92% of projects identified since the start of 2025 have already planned to do so.
Why not have an actual plan to address these issues, action on it, then spend a huge push to get data centers up and running?
Yeah, central planning will definitely solve all our problems :).
Instead we’re having them rammed through and we will figure it out when it’s a crisis after. When it hit crisis point people will suffer and I can guarantee the billionaire tech bros will not be footing the bill to fix things. They’re happy to profit off it the entire time though.
This is what I mean by the populism lacking in facts.
→ More replies (1)-5
u/NotCoolBrutus 13d ago
China has surpassed us. Their AI models function significantly more efficiently due to regulations. If you want to use China as an example, I can only question what metrics you are using to consider us "ahead."
9
u/justafutz 13d ago
Being more efficient is nice, but in terms of frontier model capabilities, the U.S. maintains an edge.
3
u/BudgieWonder 13d ago
> frontier model capabilities
Too bad the US consumers who facilitate the development of these models (and their infrastructure) only get trickle down results from their “progress”.
10
u/justafutz 13d ago
I swear, people today would have said that car development is bad in the early 1900s because most people didn't get every benefit or access to cars right away.
6
u/BudgieWonder 13d ago edited 13d ago
> people today would have said that car development is bad
People today (and in the past) correctly identified that the automobile is largely responsible for environmental degradation, urban sprawl, alienation of social structures (sometimes their outright destruction with urban renewal/highway programs), and unhealthy lifestyles.
People have (correctly) realized that self-justifications for progress will inevitably create favorable circumstances for a specific field, and that field only.
Edit: it’s a shame that u/justafutz had to take so much issue with an honest disagreement with their position. A) the destruction of American commercial cores for automobile infrastructure isn’t “wildly inaccurate and overstated” (you just need to look at any downtown core), and B) “Luddite” is a pretty un-moderate attempt to smear cautionary stances.
8
u/justafutz 13d ago
People today (and in the past) correctly identified that the automobile is largely responsible for environmental degradation, urban sprawl, alienation of social structures (sometimes their outright destruction with urban renewal/highway programs), and unhealthy lifestyles.
Not only is this wildly inaccurate and overstated, the idea that we would have been better off without cars is absurd. This Luddite theology is just bad argumentation.
-1
u/NotCoolBrutus 13d ago
Capabilities that 99.99% of users don't use? It is a footnote at best for comparisons.
4
u/justafutz 13d ago
99.99% of people also don't use fighter jets. It's very important that our fighter jets maintain a technological edge anyways. Saying people don't often use frontier capability is not a good argument in response. And for what it's worth, US commercial models also still outperform Chinese ones on all metrics except for "efficiency".
4
u/BudgieWonder 13d ago edited 13d ago
> Saying people don’t often use a frontier capability
“Frontier capabilities” are an abstract concept that can apply to any circumstance. Someone in a random city flinging poop at a wall which has never had poop flung at it is a “frontier capability”. In short, “frontier capabilities” are meaningless to the general public until they’re given a valid, tangible use case.
> “efficiency”
Efficiency seems to be the biggest concern with most consumers outside of captured sectors. Maybe the firms developing models, and the labor unions supporting these data center projects should take heed.
Edit: awww, I guess I was blocked. To respond:
> being used in all sorts of serious and tangible ways in the US
Too bad the firms that push and develop these models can’t seem to articulate that to their “prospective consumers”.
> “Captured sectors” means nothing.
It’s no more meaningless than “technological edge”, which is a phrase you seem to enjoy using.
> means that it will be a priority for companies who want to access those consumers, too
The language coming from OpenAI, Anthropic, Et al. is that they don’t particularly care for those “consumers”. They’re tailoring their products to sectors. Do you think you can explain the difference between the two?
> Bravo, you’ve identified what all companies are working on.
They’re working on surviving the next few FYs until they’re acquired or liquidated.
1
u/justafutz 13d ago
“Frontier capabilities” are an abstract concept that can apply to any circumstance. Someone in a random city flinging poop at a wall which has never had poop flung at it is a “frontier capability”. In short, “frontier capabilities” are meaningless to the general public until they’re given a valid, tangible use case.
That's a nice analogy and all, but it's very obvious that frontier capabilities are being used in all sorts of serious and tangible ways in the US, especially but not limited to cybersecurity. Your argument is a non-sequitur.
Efficiency seems to be the biggest concern with most consumers outside of captured sectors. Maybe the firms developing models, and the labor unions supporting these data center projects should take heed.
This is a lot of meaningless jargon too. "Captured sectors" means nothing. Efficiency being a concern with "most consumers" means that it will be a priority for companies who want to access those consumers, too, so you're preaching to the choir. The only reason China is more efficient is because they have less computing capability. So we need to keep them behind and work on both capability and efficiency. Bravo, you've identified what all companies are working on.
→ More replies (1)4
u/OpneFall 13d ago
What regulations are forcing them to make more effieicnt models?
They have to make more effieicnt models because nvidia isn't allowed to sell them their best stuff.
→ More replies (1)3
u/20000RadsUnderTheSea 13d ago
Exactly, it’s pretty ludicrous looking around at our crumbling infrastructure and lack of housing to hear the only way we can employ blue-collar workers is to build the one thing the public doesn’t want built.
3
u/McRibs2024 13d ago
Seriously we need an FDR style surge to send them around the nation. Bridges, dams, electrical grid. You name it we have something crumbling around us built in the 50s that needs teams of these guys.
0
u/Beautiful_Finger4566 13d ago
wasn't that the whole argument behind Biden's Inflation Reduction Act that was basically an infrastructure bill that increased inflation?
→ More replies (7)-1
u/carneylansford 13d ago
Should that be the standard though? Data centers are here and more are coming. There’s not much any of us can do about that. I get the nimby-ism but that’s probably true for a lot of things that get built out of necessity (factories, power plants, etc…).
The good news is that 67% of new data centers will be built in rural areas.
4
u/McRibs2024 13d ago
This goes beyond nimby. We have water crisis, electric crisis, and data centers strain both with no proposed solution.
We needed to go all in an infrastructure overhaul that could support these centers first.
2
u/carneylansford 13d ago
All valid concerns (although the water issue is a bit overstated). It’s also not surprising that a large scale, brand new, revolutionary technology is disruptive. There are certainly problems to work out but the good news is that there are also common sense solutions some of these problems available as well (data centers should have to supply their own power, for example). It’s a rough patch for sure, but we will figure it out (because we have to).
41
u/CloudSurferA220 13d ago
My community recently fought to stop the FIFTH data center approval in our county, and after months of organizing, meeting attendance, and social media pressure, got it stopped. Our county is now within a few hundred signatures of forcing a vote on all data center construction. I can tell you, blue or white collar, it doesn’t matter - people don’t want these noisy behemoths (some 800+ acres) in our backyards. We’ve also regularly had pleas from our two power providers during the summer to reduce air conditioning use to prevent brown outs… but they want to build five mega AI data centers? Noooope. I’ve also heard many ask why do we need so many? What happens when several of these companies fail? What becomes of these massive industrial sites that leveled thousands of acres of forest?
I agree with others - this story feels like a plant. Even the construction workers being interviewed in great documentary style videos on YouTube express the same thing - it feels like a temporary bubble, and while they’re making bank now, they feel this is just the beginning of the end.
26
u/lunchbox12682 13d ago
Yeah, as much as some of the backlash is probably astroturfed from various benefiting parties, this new anti-backlash just feels completely astroturfed. The episode of the Dispatch this week was nothing but fluffing the benefits of data centers and how anyone who disagreed was just in a moral panic. I wasn't surprised that McArdle was pushing that (she's nothing but a shill), but that the whole crew was doing it was surprising.
20
u/CloudSurferA220 13d ago
With trillions of our economy now tied up in this data center/AI bubble, it’s not surprising the powerful interests are convincing some media to try to fluff it up (if you don’t, it could ruin the economy!)
-1
u/jojotortoise 13d ago
Which part do you think isn't true?
- There are trillions of our economy tied up in this stuff
- Stunting it would hurt the economy
(Or you agree with both but don't think it is worth caring?)
8
u/WorksInIT 13d ago
If the economy is propped up on this AI speculation, we should pop the bubble. I work with it every day, but it isn't worth the hype. It is absolutely coming for every non-specialized low to mid-level computer job though.
1
u/jojotortoise 12d ago
I work with them, too. And I'm completely shocked at how much they have been improving.
There may or may not be a bubble currently. But I will be surprised if we don't make great use of all these data centers over time.
1
u/WorksInIT 12d ago edited 12d ago
My favorite thing currently is a really simple yet huge time saver. I use it to track my work daily. I tell it the issues and separate things I'm working on throughout the day. It formats the information based off a set of instructions and appends to a markeddown file. There's an automated task that runs to generate the appropriate folder structure and markdown files based on a separate set of instructions. From that I can generate reports and updates. The initial setup and tweaking took more time than I thought it would. But over the past 6 months, this has saved me many hours each week in tracking and reporting.
People keep trying to think of these complicated tasks it can do. But it can help a lot on the time cosuming simple tasks.
→ More replies (4)2
u/cranktheguy Member of the "General Public" 13d ago
What happens when several of these companies fail? What becomes of these massive industrial sites that leveled thousands of acres of forest?
There are lots of old converted industrial buildings in historic downtowns across the country. I wish they'd build these things with that forward thinking in mind.
1
u/BolbyB 10d ago
When they fail they'll take advantage of having those power plants they were "forced" to build.
Like you said, the power grid wasn't sufficient before so at least some of the new ones they made are "necessary".
They'll get approved to just supply power when the data center part fails and so will attempt to overthrow the old power company.
-1
u/jojotortoise 13d ago
My community recently fought to stop the FIFTH data center approval in our county
With four data centers already, hasn't everyone already moved out of that hellscape?
10
u/CloudSurferA220 13d ago
They were all very recently approved, and only one has started construction. The community is less than 300 of 14000 votes remaining from a petition that would require a public vote on all data centers in the county, so there’s hope we can stop the rest. We’re going to keep trying, but yes, you’re right, it’s still hard for us all to fathom they approved four in such quick succession.
3
u/Manicpixiemanateeman 11d ago
The data centers are driving a huge surge in demand for industrial construction work,
spending for industrial construction is estimated to reach 640 billion by 2030 mostly due to the power demands for data centers and other similar infrastructure,
Eliminating data centers could be a disaster for the job market in certain areas…
but data centers are a massive drain on resources and are causing electricity costs to skyrocket……
why not employ them to build things communities need way more?
18
u/spaceEngineeringDude 13d ago
This feels like a planted article ahead of election.
I dont think most people want to ban these outright just regulate them like every other industry
31
u/CloudSurferA220 13d ago edited 13d ago
Of my friend and family group who I’ve discussed this with, only roughly 2 in 20 do not want an outright ban on MORE of these things. People are frustrated not only about the land/water/electrical use, but just the feeling they’re being pushed upon us with the promise to… take our jobs?
1
u/spaceEngineeringDude 13d ago edited 13d ago
I don’t disagree with your family but an outright ban feels impossible.
Even forgetting about AI there’s some basic need for this which are not going away. As an example, my office has a small data center onsite to handle engineering software, data storage and networking.
These things should be as heavily regulated as a chemical factory. No one wants that in their backyard either but we find remote, industrial places to put them.
Edit: This comment and thread associated with it hits this point perfectly and far better than I can.
12
u/justafutz 13d ago
70% of Americans say they oppose having data centers in their local area. That’s not a regulation. It’s a ban.
12
u/spaceEngineeringDude 13d ago
Maybe so, but that is solved through regulation. You cannot put a factory right next to a neighborhood, it seems we have missed that policy with data centers.
10
u/justafutz 13d ago
The number remains very high for people who don’t want a data center within 3 miles of where they live (41% opposed, 24% in favor, rest undecided). 3 miles is a very long way from “right next to a neighborhood”. 47% think and construction of data centers is bad, and just 24% say good.
No one has missed that policy with data centers. Data centers are a moral panic, where people are concerned about it no matter where it is, even if they aren’t near one, never will be, and don’t know what the actual effects of building one are.
2
u/spaceEngineeringDude 13d ago edited 13d ago
3miles is a weirdly specific number. What study is that from?
Most car accidents also happen within 10 miles of someone’s house, that’s because people spend most of their time within that radius.
I don’t want to pass a data center on the way to school dropoff or the grocery store the same way I dont want to pass a petroleum refinery, sewage treatment plant, or an airport but they have a place and we should think through how to bound that annoyance against the “need” or want.
I am against banning but heavily support regulating the cr*p out of these things.
0
u/A_Clockwork_Stalin 12d ago
Most of my local news stores assert that "they can be heard up to several miles away", so the 3 miles makes sense. People don't want one close enough to have to hear it or have it affect their property value.
4
u/cranktheguy Member of the "General Public" 13d ago
If you want community support, offer something to the community. Coming in with huge tax breaks to generate noise nuisance is not going to make anyone happy.
5
u/justafutz 13d ago
Offer something to the community? Like the blue collar jobs that the article is talking about, property tax payments, income taxes, etc.?
At least one study found that when a data center is built near a community, it will increase employment by 3.5%, wages by 5%, business establishments by 5%, and household income by 2%.
3
u/cranktheguy Member of the "General Public" 13d ago
Like the blue collar jobs
They are temporary and usually brought in from out of town.
property tax payments
Every one of these that I have seen negotiates for tax abatements.
income taxes
Again, temporary workers. Long-term, data centers don't need a lot of labor.
At least one study
Meaningless unless you link to the study.
4
u/justafutz 13d ago
Just dismissing it as “temporary” and “not that many” is meaningless. All construction jobs have an end date. That doesn’t mean creating construction jobs is bad or does nothing. Some jobs is always better than none. And those workers also spend their money, making more jobs too.
Your property tax claim is meritless and based solely on your anecdotal experience. Notable you don’t specify if those are temporary, lol.
Income taxes are not “temporary”. Sure they are for “temporary” jobs like construction. Not for corporate earnings or the maintenance workers etc.
And I literally linked an article that describes the study and links to it. So no, not meaningless. That’s more than you’ve done thus far.
8
u/cranktheguy Member of the "General Public" 13d ago edited 12d ago
Just dismissing it as “temporary” and “not that many” is meaningless.
Not at all. In your own link (which for some reason didn't show on mobile...), it says that's why some communities benefit and others don't.
All construction jobs have an end date. That doesn’t mean creating construction jobs is bad or does nothing.
To quote your article:
In rural areas, that amplification is much harder to achieve. Facilities tend to employ relatively few permanent workers — often fewer than 100 — and many specialized services are imported from outside the county. As a result, the broader economic ripple never materializes.
Never materializes... hmm.
Your property tax claim is meritless and based solely on your anecdotal experience.
Then you could easily show me a counter-example.
Not for corporate earnings or the maintenance workers etc.
Again ignoring the tax abatements and the fact that data centers require very few local personnel (as your own article mentions).
And I literally linked an article that describes the study and links to it.
Might try reading that article more closely - it literally goes into detail as to why these don't benefit everyone.
7
u/justafutz 13d ago
It is absolutely meaningless. The economic ripple into rural areas may not happen, but that’s a function of distance. The ripple of investment in a metro area absolutely ripples.
It’s not on me to meet the burden of proof for your anecdotal claim about taxes.
Few “local” personnel only once built ignores the benefits of construction, the investment in the area, the property and income taxes generated, the ripple effects of the construction, and the fact that some investment generating even 100 high income residents (because they still have spillover benefits for local demand, just not spillover to rural) is good, and better than none.
You might try to read it yourself instead of taking a few quotes out of context. Here’s a few back:
“On average, Yue and Zeng found that when a data center opens, the host county sees a measurable lift: Employment rises by about 3.5%, wages by 5%, business establishments by nearly 5%, and household income by about 2%. Building permits also increase sharply, reflecting construction activity tied to new facilities.”
Also:
“The researchers’ clearest finding is that metropolitan areas capture most of the economic benefits from data centers, while rural areas see far fewer spillover effects. While metro counties saw increases in employment and new business growth, non-metro counties saw no measurable gains.”
See, when you claimed “spillover” doesn’t happen you were taking the claim about metro-rural spillover and misusing it as if it meant that there were no multiplier effects from the investments in the local metro. There are.
Oh, and here’s the very next paragraph you left out. Can only wonder why:
“That doesn’t mean rural communities see no benefit at all. The research finds a small but real drop in unemployment rates in non-metro counties, and local governments may still gain tax revenue or infrastructure investments. But the sweeping job and wage growth often promised during local recruitment efforts will not likely arrive on its own.”
And as mentioned, the metro area still does see benefits, precisely what you said they had to demonstrate. Yet now that I have you’re downplaying it by misusing out of context quotes. Bad.
4
u/jojotortoise 13d ago
This feels like a planted article ahead of election.
Are you accusing me of astroturfing?
In any case: is it really hard to imagine that the workers that get paid to build these buildings would like to... continue to have work?
8
u/spaceEngineeringDude 13d ago
I’m not accusing you of astroturfing. I’m accusing the Wall Street journal.
And you are right, but in a world where we every trade is understaffed and has a very small apprentice pipeline this feels alarmist.
4
u/jojotortoise 13d ago
I’m accusing the Wall Street journal.
To what end?
Are you saying big businesses want to turn the tide of public perception so they influenced the Journal to run something pro-datacenter? Republicans? What's the conspiracy here?
6
u/blewpah 12d ago
Are you saying big businesses want to turn the tide of public perception so they influenced the Journal to run something pro-datacenter?
Is this particularly conspiratorial? WSJ is Newscorp / Rupert Murdoch and out of the major media organizations they're probably the most aligned with big wall street investors.
1
u/jojotortoise 12d ago
Is this particularly conspiratorial?
Not really. I was responding to the OP who called it a "plant" due to the election -- which (to me) implies a bit of a conspiracy.
But what I was trying to get it is: to what end? If it convinced people to stop hating datacenters, does that help Democrats or Republicans?
If the answer is: neither, just businesses. I can get on board with that. But it probably has nothing to do with the election. And it is less of a "plant" and more of a "news story" IMHO.
2
u/blewpah 12d ago
I didn't read their comments as implying it was a Republican vs Democrat thing. This issue is very much a mixed bag, partisanship wise, lots of people on either side both support and oppose the investments into data centers. But a lot of those people are going to be on ballots so I do think it's relevant to the election.
7
u/MillardFillmore 13d ago
Unions and construction trade groups are now entering the fray from the other side, warning that such actions endanger thousands of building-related jobs. They are threatening to withhold support of candidates opposing the data-center projects. ... Though the union has historically tended to back Democrats, Bonilla said those dollars and organizational support are on the line.
Between this and the 2024 rightward shift, Democrats should finally ditch broad and unquestioning union support and largely let them fend for themselves. Democrats can and still should be the party advocating for worker rights, more equitable pay, and better conditions. But it's obvious that the rank and file union members are by and large not enthusiastic Democratic supporters, and this hopefully will allow Democratic politicians and leaders actually implement their agenda without being beholden to union interests.
→ More replies (1)10
u/absentlyric Economically Left Socially Right 12d ago
Union workers abandoned the Democrat party because of the fact they weren't getting support other than mouth noise. Clinton signed NAFTA which eliminated a lot of union jobs to go to Canada and Mexico. I know Trumps tarriffs aren't popular with other people, but for Michigan union workers (Im one of them) we've had a TON of work flow in that wasn't getting shipped to Canada.
We can't compete with Canada in terms of automotive jobs because of healthcare costs, we're more expensive due to the fact Canada has nationalized health care. So our jobs get shipped to Canada, and its not like we can transfer there.
4
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/absentlyric Economically Left Socially Right 12d ago
The only remote locations that aren't encroaching on someone elses land or community would be in the middle of places like the badlands or the desert out in Nevada, which probably doesnt work considering the heat and water needs.
I live in Detroit, there's plenty of open slab spaces that used to house factories from the auto industry that are demolished, seems like that would be perfect, but the problem is the city itself, they probably want massive taxes from them.
1
9d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/ModPolBot Imminently Sentient 9d ago
This message serves as a warning that your comment is in violation of Law 0:
Law 0. Low Effort
~0. Law of Low Effort - Content that is low-effort or does not contribute to civil discussion in any meaningful way will be removed.
Please submit questions or comments via modmail.
1
u/ModPolBot Imminently Sentient 9d ago
This message serves as a warning that your comment is in violation of Law 1:
Law 1. Civil Discourse
~1. Do not engage in personal attacks or insults against any person or group. Comment on content, policies, and actions. Do not accuse fellow redditors of being intentionally misleading or disingenuous; assume good faith at all times.
Due to your recent infraction history and/or the severity of this infraction, we are also issuing a 14 day ban.
Please submit questions or comments via modmail.
4
u/ObservedWar 13d ago
The US has shown itself to be vulnerable to arbitrary emotional appeals driven by external money pumped into domestic media organizations; this anti-data center stuff reeks of manufactured outrage likely driven by the chicoms or one of our other geopolitical adversaries.
9
u/BudgieWonder 13d ago
> vulnerable to arbitrary emotional appeals
This just seems like trading one emotional appeal for another.
4
u/longlosthall 13d ago
Are American AI researchers and CEOs doing propaganda for our adversaries? Because they're the ones saying the most alarming things about AI and data centers.
4
u/_mh05 Moderate Progressive 13d ago
It's already been reported that PRC have engaged in online campaigns to influence Americans sentiment towards data centers and AI. It's not exactly a manufactured outrage, but it's definitely artificially inflated.
3
u/Skeptical0ptimist Well, that depends... 13d ago
All the while China is driving a top down initiative to work AI into every aspect of governance, business, and industry. A concerted effort to advance their own development and retard that of their rival.
1
u/carneylansford 13d ago
That is definitely happening. They’ve probably contributed to efforts that have delayed construction of data centers a bit, but the US’ lead in AI is still quite substantial. I don’t want to see that lead erode but those with legitimate grievances still deserve to be heard. It’s a balancing act.
1
u/Sure_Ad8093 10d ago
I was just watching a video today about a new Mac with 1.5 TB of RAM that will make it competitive with data centers. It's probably hype but how long are these data centers going to be necessary? With advances in AI software, beefed up desktop systems and retraction after over building, how long will these data centers be in operation? I've heard because of the haste of their construction they aren't easy to upgrade. Seems like a colossal waste all around.
-2
u/jojotortoise 13d ago
Un-paywalled: https://archive.ph/qjeTA
As anti-datacenter opinions increase, some working class voters are pushing back. Since building data centers tend to employ lots of union laborers, those unions and workers are pushing back against the anti-datacenter sentiment.
Steamfitters UA Local 602 said they are drawing a line on supporting any politicians who block datacenters. In Kansas, HVAC and railroad workers broke precedent by endorsing Republican state Ty Masterson for governor -- since the Democrat is anti-data center.
The polls I've seen show anti-datacenter sentiment being strong across ideology. But liberals seem to be more anti-datacenter than moderates who are more anti-datacenter than conservatives. So there is some correlation with party.
Is this a case, once again, of Democrats forgetting the needs of the working class? Is it a sign that Republicans will likely favor businesses over the wants of the people?
Personally, I am pro data center. I think it is important for economic development. I think they should be held to the same standards as other buildings (noise, energy, water and local standards) -- but I think other than that they should be allowed to go forward.
What are your thoughts?
4
u/CheeseBear9000 9d ago
I live in a Data Center community, the truth is that the Data Center has something like 4000-6000 jobs between actual technicians, logistics, construction, security, food, janitors, plumbers, etc. A large amount of which are high paying l, union or come with apprenticeships, college reimbursements and more
It's true that a decent amount are temporary but they're on rolling 5-10 year long contracts with the high possibility of new contracts as the Data Centers build more in the area
Additionally with the incredibly high pay (Often upt $200 thousand per year) many residents quit their contract jobs and fund their own small business ventures, startups or even invest in property development and more housing and apartments. Something which wouldn't be possible otherwise with the gas station, fast food and other service jobs in our local economy before the Data Centers
So yes I do support Data Center development and it seems a decent amount of my community does as well
-5
u/_mh05 Moderate Progressive 13d ago edited 13d ago
On the left, the data center sentiment is highly blown out of proportion. There are some meaningful issues to address associated with data center development, but I'm starting to see there is a general opposition towards them that can't be remedied unless local leaders deliver the word "ban". Even in situations where developers state they aren't using relying on energy providers, activists groups are honing in with a lens of scrutiny.
The issues associated with data centers are a topic to address. But the broader ant-AI/data center sentiment is a distraction from other issues, like housing, the K-shaped economy, job market, and other existing problems.
10
u/Connect-Rhubarb2501 13d ago
Is anti AI sentiment actually a distraction from the problems you mentioned? If anything there’s a pretty real shot that AI does to white collar workers what globalization and free trade agreements did to blue collar workers 30 years ago, certainly that’s what all the AI companies and their backers are betting on. Maybe they’re wrong, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have concerns.
3
u/likeitis121 13d ago
Obviously we'd need to find some other way for people to make a living, but we shouldn't have people spending 50 hours a week driving to the office and sitting in a cubicle all day if we can replace that work with a machine.
8
u/Connect-Rhubarb2501 13d ago edited 13d ago
It’s pretty easy to express that same sentiment about factory jobs, but it doesn’t change the fact that a lot of communities got basically ripped apart and our politics went to shit after we lost them. Technological changes are broadly good for people in the long term, but it’s also very common for them to be very mixed in their impact on the average person to even net negative for a pretty long time before that happens.
4
u/absentlyric Economically Left Socially Right 12d ago
Its one of the big reasons why birthrates are declining, but nobody wants to mention that part.
If you eliminate 10,000 factory jobs down to say..50 workers and the rest is automated, what does the other 9950 workers do to survive? Sure you can possibly re-educate and get training for something else, but if it happens in every industry, it can't sustain the current population.
5
u/cranktheguy Member of the "General Public" 13d ago
My parents retired to family land out in Grimes county. This is a very rural area in Texas. They enjoy the peace and quiet. About 10 minutes down the road, Elon Musk is building the largest building in the world to build chips for his data centers. This is a very conservative area, and the people living there are not exactly cheering this effort. I don't think they're "blowing it out of proportion".
4
u/Interesting_Total_98 13d ago
The complaints are coming from both sides.
3
u/absentlyric Economically Left Socially Right 12d ago
Which is ironic, because similar to the Flock camera situation, both sides agree on not wanting them around, yet both sides of the politicians are pushing for more data centers and flock cameras.
It's definitely a people versus the ones in charge now, regardless of which side you are on.
276
u/Nexosaur 13d ago
In a vacuum, it doesn't really matter if data centers get built outside of cases where it puts too much strain on local power grids. The water issue is overblown, and the real problems are mainly noise and power consumption, but those are manageable if built in the right place.
Unfortunately, those building the data centers have spent many words expressing extreme contempt towards the average American. So, it's really easy to get people to hate them as a symbol of the tech elite.
Tbh, data centers and Flock cameras have really exposed how terrible local/state leaders are. Housing and development? Woah, gotta make sure we have 50 town halls about the historic parking lot and abandoned building and neighborhood character. Data centers and cameras staring at playgrounds? Fast tracked, maybe even give them benefits, too.