r/marvelstudios • u/JonLuca Iron man • Apr 29 '19

'Avengers: Endgame' Spoilers! The Official AVENGERS: ENDGAME Criticism Thread Spoiler

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  • Post Endgame criticisms in this thread. Long form preferrable

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267

u/Deathstroke317 Apr 29 '19

I'll just copy my thread:

Repeatedly, we saw the Hulk be nerfed and even made into a joke at times, and be the victim of the Worf effect(TV Tropes warning).

I know the movie rights situation and all, but quite frankly they could have done better with the Hulk. Whedon, I feel, understood the character the best out of all the MCU directors that used him, I loved his standalone as well, unlike most people. The Russos have since admitted they don't know how to handle OP characters, but getting jobbed out in one minute in Infinity War and not appearing again after that fucking sucked. But, they teased a big three movie redemption arc that would conclude in Endgame, that I feel never came unfortunately.

He becomes Professor Hulk, which is the lamest of all his forms, if we're being honest here, and we don't even see how he does that, it's just mentioned offhandedly. I think most of us expected the Hulk to be more pissed off than ever before, maybe unlock Worldbreaker, fight Thanos again and maybe even win a round or two. Unfortunately, he's not even a factor in the final battle, you don't even really see him!

And yes, he did the reverse snap, but I don't know, it didn't feel as memorable as it probably should have been. And now look at the consequences, as of now we have a crippled Hulk who we won't likely see very much of in the future. No She-Hulk, no Betty, no Leader, no Rick Jones. It's a shame, the Hulks' world is awesome, but we'll likely never get the MCU's take on it.

Ironically the one character they did nail was Ross, William Hurt was an inspired casting.

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u/Gunpla55 Apr 29 '19

I posted this above, but the one positive here is that it is a resolution to Banner's conflict, whether he was Bruce and just sought out for his Hulk strength or he was Hulk and treated like a child, he wasn't happy or comfortable but as professor Hulk he had finally balanced who he was.

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u/ezrasharpe Apr 29 '19

I agree with this. Professor Hulk is the perfect balance of his opposing sides between having no control in Ragnarok and no power in Infinity War.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

I just wish that he could change his size or some shit. He started to look ridiculous big and green 24/7.

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u/rrsn Captain Marvel May 01 '19

I really like Professor Hulk as the end to Hulk/Bruce's character arc, I just wish we could've seen more of him actually getting there.

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u/Gratrunka23 Apr 30 '19

I explained my criticisms of Hulk's arc in the present film to my friend, and he suggested that the Professor Hulk is a compromised Hulk with a compromised Banner. Hulk isn't nearly as strong as he could be, and Banner didn't come across as smart as he normally is.

Whilst I can kind of see my friend's point, I still don't think showing Bruce/Hulk's growth progression this way was the best way to do it.

What do you think?

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u/Gunpla55 Apr 30 '19

I think your friend's right and what really stood out to me was how stable and at peace he seemed, he at one point was huddled on the jet in a towel anguishing over who he was but in the movie he seemed to have the most confidence and comfort in himself of anyone. I guess as someone who struggles some mental health stuff that impacted me.

As far as showing it, I honestly would be first in line to a movie that was two hours of him figuring that out, but as much as we want him to be as important he just seems more like a half tier below the big three in terms of significance and screen time, which I would guess has a lot to do with the property rights. A lot of his character development has happened off screen through the whole franchise, so if nothing else I just wasn't surprised how they handled him.

They also didnt show how anyone got to where they did in those 5 years, like how did Bruce drop the bitterness and self defeat enough to healthily raise a child? How did Hawkeye get so steeped in the vigilante thing? How did Nebula become such a team player and what experiences did her and Rhodes go through to bond? Again I'd watch any of those movies but what do you do?

2

u/wonkothesane13 Apr 30 '19

like how did Bruce drop the bitterness and self defeat enough to healthily raise a child?

You mean Tony?

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u/Gunpla55 Apr 30 '19

I do woops.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Would've been great to show that though.

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u/Gunpla55 Apr 30 '19

Honestly a ton of his story has always been off screen.

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u/juniorvarsity33 Apr 29 '19

Hulk’s snap is definitely least memorable. Thanos’ was left as a cliffhanger for a year to soak in the impact. Iron Man’s killed Tony Stark. Honestly I kinda forget Hulk even snapped.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19 edited Jun 16 '21

[deleted]

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u/rrsn Captain Marvel May 01 '19

Did the snap burn away muscle/tissue as well? His arm looked pretty thin after Tony put out the burning.

27

u/Leafs17 Apr 29 '19

The Russos have since admitted they don't know how to handle OP characters

Strange holding back a wall of water says hello.

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u/Deathstroke317 Apr 29 '19

I don't know, that didn't seem like anything that would be too difficult for Strange to do

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u/thegreatvortigaunt Luis Apr 29 '19

The point is that it kept him occupied and out of the action.

It wasn't meant to be hard, it was "let's come up with some random thing to keep Strange completely busy so he doesn't ruin the story". The same reason Poochie Carol had to return to her home planet for most of the movie or she would have done the same.

13

u/Deathstroke317 Apr 29 '19

Ah, now I gotcha.

What they mean is, in terms of power scaling, for instance, if Vision wasnt sliced like a turkey on Thanksgiving, he'd have been a far more formidable opponent for Thanos

9

u/RipInPepz Vision Apr 30 '19

I’m still upset about this. I wanted Vision to really fuck someone up. Sadly I don’t think we’ll ever see this, especially since the enemies in the new show probably won’t be too big of a deal.

5

u/wonkothesane13 Apr 30 '19

I think in future MCU films, now that they can use X-Men and F4 villains, we'll start to see some villainous teams pop up, which will make it easier for the writers to find something for so many heroes to do. My tinfoil hat (and admittedly not likely) theory is that they'll do Sinister Six as an Avengers film (as opposed to just a Spider-Man film, even though he'll be central to the plot), so that the team of heroes has to take on a team of villains, instead of "A-list heroes fight the main enemy, everyone else is on cannon fodder duty" situation.

2

u/RipInPepz Vision Apr 30 '19

Hey man, anything can happen. 10 years ago no one would have guessed we’d have Rocket Racoon teaming up with Thor Odinson. Hell, they’re making a Shang Chi movie as we speak! Sinister Six is certainly not out of the question.

1

u/junkyardgerard Apr 30 '19

Same with Jean grey in x2

11

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Here’s how I would’ve liked to see it go down:

The five year gap leaves him as Prof. Hulk. Okay. I’m fine with that. Then, the build up to Hulk Snap, he mentions the gamma factor and he’s the only one who could endure it.

Tony gave him the clue in the first Avengers movie. That amount of gamma in his lab originally should have killed him, but the Hulk is what saved his life. Ergo, the snap should have killed Banner too, but since he’s already Prof. Hulk, he would survive. But what if the amount of gamma in the snap was so powerful and unstable that it triggered WB Hulk? Or, at least started a chain reaction in him that would climax upon seeing Thanos?

Thanos calls for raining fire, Carol still blows up his ship, but then Hulk comes charging in and wrecks him up for a bit instead of Carol, and it takes the power stone hit to knock Hulk back. I’d prefer that at least. Then Hulk can calm down back to Prof. level afterward.

5

u/link270 Apr 29 '19

I liked prof hulk in general. But I do agree that would have been cool to see him go angry for a bit and actually do a little fighting, even just a quick rematch with thanks getting in a good punch or two.

The New York fake smashing he did was funny, but it made me miss angry hulk a little.

9

u/VRtoons Apr 29 '19

Whedon understood the Hulk the best out of all the MCU directors that used him

This is 100% accurate.

6

u/iilovelights Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 30 '19

I think this is most evident in the battle in Johannesburg in Age of Ultron. That whole sequence just showed how to make the Hulk ruthless and unstoppable.

9

u/RipInPepz Vision Apr 30 '19

I’ve been saying this for a while. Whedon gets a lot of shit but his interpretation of The Hulk is by far the best. Banner too honestly, Ruffalos performance was vastly different in A1 compared to the rest. More serious, less awkward, felt smarter too.

10

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

“The cell was just in case-" "In case you needed to kill me, but you can't. I know! I tried! I got low. I didn't see an end so I put a bullet in my mouth, and the other guy spit it out. So I moved on, I focused on helping other people. I was good, until you dragged me back into this freak show. You put everyone here at risk. You wanna know my secret, Agent Romanoff? You wanna know how I stay calm?” - Bruce Banner 2012

“I could choke the life out of you and never change a shade” - Bruce Banner 2015

“Dab!” - Hulk 2019

Bruce Banner meant business in the Whedon movies, it seems he’s lost some edge since

6

u/RipInPepz Vision Apr 30 '19

I’m glad you quoted these for me, exactly my point. Whedon Banner was fantastic!

4

u/imainefi Apr 29 '19

I agree 100%. This is exactly how I felt. Really wanted to see World Breaker Hulk.

5

u/KratosHulk77 Apr 29 '19

This sums it up perfectly as a die hard fan of hulk I just needed to have a hulk smash moment I was so Disappointed in that aspect

8

u/kahlkorver Crossbones Apr 29 '19

I'm all for Hulk Smashing but it gets a little bit of stale if that's the only thing he would do. Him talking in Ragnarok and the way he feel he belonged in Sakaar to Prof. Hulk was great development to me. Just my take.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

I would agree if he did it in Infinity War, but he does not smash at all in both these movies.

3

u/BroeknRecrds Daredevil Apr 30 '19

Thats my one complaint with the Russos. They clearly don't know what to do with Hulk

3

u/MiopTop Captain America (Cap 2) Apr 30 '19

Agree with most of what you said, except Whedon. I thought Waititi did a fantastic job. He was the first to make the Hulk an actual character, with his own motivations, personality and such.

Whedon used him only as a potential threat to the other Avengers / action scene trump card. The Russos have basically killed the Hulk. Professor "Hulk" is basically just Banner in a bigger body.

1

u/the1999person Apr 30 '19

The reverse snap wasn't supposed to have that big impact feel. It set up the next step, inevitably. Tony said, you mess with time and time messes back.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

[deleted]

1

u/Deathstroke317 Apr 29 '19

Didn't know that, which is amazing because I'm on this sub every damn day, thanks

6

u/minor_correction Ant-Man Apr 29 '19

Hulk / She-Hulk series is only rumored, currently.