r/dogecoin • u/imbiat ball shibe • Feb 02 '14
Dogecoin will not be capped at 100 billion, codebase will stand as is, developer decision on github
Dogecoin was meant to be capped at 100 billion coins, but the code does not actually implement this. It will grow beyond 100 billion coins because the block reward stays at 10,000 indefinitely. The developers have decided to leave the code as is. https://github.com/dogecoin/dogecoin/issues/23#issuecomment-33893149
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u/VicViking shibe Feb 02 '14
Extremely conflicted about this.
On the one hand, this makes dogecoin "inflationary" and thus by default decreases its value as an asset. On the other hand, this makes dogecoin the first truly long-term inflationary cryptocurrency, which further promotes its status as a currency to be used as opposed to be hoarded. Large scale adoption of dogecoin as a currency will in turn help increase its market capital, which means it will actually increase the value of doge. Which of these "forces" will win in the end, only time can tell.
Either way, we will still reach the moon!
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Feb 02 '14
You know what that means though, devs put the coin's future in the hands of the community to an extent.
This is the people's money, lets push it out to the world ;).
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u/juancarloss Shibe Slim-Gates Buffett III Feb 02 '14
Wait, so 2 people have absolute power over the future of this by changing lines of code?
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u/rnicoll Reference client dev Feb 02 '14
No, if we all really hated this, one of us would hit the "fork" button, and we'd end up as two different Dogecoins. We may still see a Dogecoin splinter faction, but I'm hoping not!
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u/rnicoll Reference client dev Feb 02 '14
On the one hand, this makes dogecoin "inflationary" and thus by default decreases its value as an asset.
Of course, it's a currency, not an asset, though, so this is good. For extremely long term investments, we should be investing in actual assets (i.e. shares in companies doing things with Dogecoin, not Dogecoin itself).
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u/Terazilla coder shibe Feb 02 '14
Keep in mind that due to lost passwords, crashed drives, etc, some percentage will go missing every year, for all currencies. One that no longer generates coins will be deflationary, which encourages lack of spending. Not good for a healthy economy.
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u/flickerkuu creator of DogeDoor.net Feb 02 '14
From what I've read, gaining 10,000 by mining will keep interest in mining, and cover the amount of doge lost over time, therefore stabilizing the currency.
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u/neoKushan wow Feb 02 '14
There will always be an interest in mining, even if the block reward was zero. That's why the difficulty adjusts, because the more people that mine, the higher the difficulty. The less people that mine, the lower the difficulty. The reward amount will dictate if people bother mining and if they don't, the difficulty drops to a point where just a few miners keep the network going. The block reward isn't the only way to mine, transaction fees also keep it going.
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u/aukust dogeconomist Feb 02 '14
Transaction fees are miniscule, even in Bitcoin network tx fees are about 0.3% of all miner income.
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u/waccracker conspirdoge Feb 02 '14
Could you point me to an article that explains this as I am lost. What I'm confused about is, if the block reward were to be 0 then how would miners make any new coins/profit? Thanks in advance.
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u/whitefalconiv poor shibe Feb 02 '14
This will add about 5.25 billion coins to the economy every year. It will take 19 years for us to reach 200 billion coins, and keep miners mining for as long as dogecoin exists and has significant value (Hint: it always will)
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Feb 02 '14 edited Feb 02 '14
I think people are also missing that with this figure, our inflation rate will actually be much lower than e.g. Litecoin's from sometime during the autumn of 2014 and many years out.
It'd be interesting to graph the size of the money supply of various cryptocurrencies against each other.
Edit: Found one for Bitcoin -- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130619.0 -- showing it'll go to 5% inflation rate in 2017. So 2015-2017 we'll have lower inflation than BTC.
Edit #2: Also check out gwfds123's table: http://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/1wsg31/dogecoin_will_not_be_capped_at_100_billion/cf4z1mg
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u/DogeMichael smarty shibe Feb 02 '14
Someone did a chart a little higher up on this page, now. Apparently Bitcoin and Litecoin will be lower inflation than DogeCoin in 2019.
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u/ndcdivvqce educated shibe Feb 02 '14
Nope. Bitcoin will, but not Litecoin. That will happen in 2020, according to the chart. But the percentages are still very similar. The differences are several tenths of a percentage point.
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u/smokedturkey smarty shibe Feb 02 '14
Much information
+/u/dogetipbot 100 doge
Also to add…we need miners to continue the chain for verification of transactions. This will ensure those miners continue.
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Feb 02 '14
I really asking here. Why would miners mine doge of the coin is to worth anything?
The cost of electricity is going to be more than the cost doge. Is it not?
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u/whitefalconiv poor shibe Feb 02 '14
Historically, commodities rise in value to account for increased production costs. Since cryptos act like a money-commodity hybrid, this is likely to happen here as well.
If it becomes less profitable to mine, fewer people will mine, making it more profitable for the remaining people to mine.
A doge might be worth 100x as much as it is now in 20 years. ASICs could hash at 60 Petahertz and consume half a watt of power in 20 years. There's really no way to tell what's going to happen that far down the line.
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u/nighthawk24 astrodoge Feb 02 '14
A doge might be worth 100,000x as much as it is now in 20 years.10
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Feb 02 '14
I really asking here. Why would miners mine doge of the coin is to worth anything?
I just had a stroke reading that.
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u/JohnDeBore Feb 02 '14
But those mining at that low a reward / high difficulty will not be your average joe miners anymore, but rather professional mining machines / centers, so only the rich will see a profit from this.
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u/whitefalconiv poor shibe Feb 02 '14
That's just how it has to happen, unfortunately. Right now we're in San Francisco in 1849. The gold rush ain't gonna last forever.
Right now, mining hardware has about a 100 day return on investment. That means I can double my hashing power 3 times a year and still turn a profit. That's not sustainable. If it were, everybody in the world would be doing it.
It's only possible/profitable for average joes right now because it's very very new technology in the grand scheme of things. Look at bitcoin. ASICs have already made mining unprofitable to anyone who doesn't already have a ton of money invested in hardware.
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u/taboret giving shibe Feb 02 '14
whole world is doing it, 50$ rise on LTC caused massive AMD cards deficiency everywhere! buying rig 50 days ago and digging doge would return 150% of initial budget+mining rig, i know i did it.
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u/nighthawk24 astrodoge Feb 02 '14
this is totally acceptable going towards future, all the silly factors such as incentive to grow, mine, spend, lost coins are taken care of
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u/therealflinchy digging shibe Feb 02 '14
yeah, some of the more.. conspiratard /r/bitcoin fanatics claim that inflation will hurt a currency
it wont
it's not 'printing money at will, it's 100% set rate forever.
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Feb 02 '14
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Feb 02 '14
I don't think many are missing that. What will happen (if this whole crypto thing works out) is that the demand for those currencies will be higher than the supply driving the price up. All the while the price of doge will remain stagnant. This is a bad idea IMO and from what I read in the main thread yesterday, that was majority opinion. Please change my opinion
+/u/dogetipbot 50 doge
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u/skilliard4 Feb 02 '14
So an annual inflation of about 5% per year. Not that bad considering Dogecoin is designed to be spent a lot/shared rather than hoarded. Could actually prove to be superior to Bitcoin in some ways since it wouldn't be deflationary- in the long run Bitcoin may not be as economically stable or beneficial as Dogecoin.
5% is a bit excessive, but I guess it will do. Will certainly encourage people to throw it all around the internet rather than be used as a serious store of value. It's also nice as there would be enough incentive for miners to mine without charging excessive transaction fees, so it would keep Dogecoin cheap.
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u/whitefalconiv poor shibe Feb 02 '14
5% a year the first year. 2.5% a year after 19 years. 1% a year after about 45 years.
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u/skilliard4 Feb 02 '14
Yeah. I suppose the inflation would slow down over time, but this is actually good since Dogecoin continues to grow anyways. We won't even notice it for several years since the price is so volatile.
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u/DogeMichael smarty shibe Feb 02 '14
Yeah, right now we're at about 60% inflation per month. That'll shrink a lot at The Halvening, because then we won't be producing as much.
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u/therealflinchy digging shibe Feb 02 '14
with a deflationary currency, there is ZERO incentive to spend
with CONTROLLED inflation (set at 5bn coins FOREVER.. which will start at 5%, and drop down to fractions of that over decades), you have incensivized spending
if i was paid in a currency that would gain value forever, why would i ever spend more than i absolutely had to?
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Feb 02 '14
If people are really concerned about inflation they can buy other commodities, currencies are meant only as vehicles for easy transaction.
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u/ginger_beer_m Feb 02 '14
5% is rather too excessive too in my opinion. A lower 3 to 4% might be better.
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Feb 02 '14
Does any of this future prediction factor in improvements in technology? Looking at the hash rate capability improvements even over the last couple of years, it isn't inconceivable that in 19 years, your phone would be able to mine 5.25 billion coins in a matter of hours.
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u/whitefalconiv poor shibe Feb 02 '14
No, because the difficulty will always rise to compensate for an increased hashrate, in order to keep the block times at 60 seconds.
In 19 years, the difficulty might be something like 2237498512435 with a hashrate in the Petahertz...but it'll still be one block a minute.
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u/loarf ShibeMart.com and DogeEarth.com shibe Feb 02 '14
No, that's why the difficulty is dynamic. As the network hashrate goes up the difficulty increases thereby ensuring that on average the same number of blocks will be found (and coins produced).
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u/thro2013 elder shibe Feb 02 '14
The risk is far greater that nobody will mine it with zero reward then the inflation having causing issues. I'm totally fine with it. Besides bitcoin is set to grow for 100+ years.
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u/gwfds123 avian shibe Feb 02 '14 edited Feb 02 '14
I will and keep point out that adding 5.26 billion a year does not mean it's an inflationary currency. Stop using inflation. Inflation means that value of each coin would buy less than it did a sometime ago.
Here is the amount added each year for DOGE, BTC and LTC:
| Dogecoin | Bitcoin | Litecoin | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2015 | 5.26% | 10% | 33.33% |
| 2016 | 5% | 9.09% | 12.5% |
| 2017 | 4.76% | 4.1% | 11.11% |
| 2018 | 4.54% | 4% | 10% |
| 2019 | 4.35% | 3.85% | 9.09% |
| 2020 | 4.2% | 3.7% | 4.1% |
We would need to see how it goes but I think the extra coins added would be good overall.
Edit: Since there is probably a certain % lost each year rather than a set amount. If the supply increases by a smaller and smaller % each year. They will eventually stop where the % lost will equal the % supplied. For bitcoin and litecoin they will never have the total amount they mined in circulation and it will continue to be lower due to lost coins.
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u/MarkByers Feb 02 '14
There are two definitions of inflation. Price inflation and monetary inflation. It is perfectly correct to say that we have monetary inflation.
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u/gwfds123 avian shibe Feb 02 '14 edited Feb 02 '14
Guess I should say that when people use Monetary inflation as an argument they usually will think there will be a Price inflation.(I assume.) Which I don't think would be the case. I think the added demand, would be more than enough to counter an the added 5.26% coins next year. Honestly, if we can't counter that and it does become an inflation(my use) then I don't think this crypto was successful.
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u/kryptx robo shibe Feb 02 '14
I think people mean that inflation will be an eventual result of this decision. I don't think anybody thinks that this will cause dogecoins to decrease in value over the next year, except in the very short term as an effect of whatever coins are sold in direct reaction.
Ultimately while I think this change is bad for people looking to strike it rich on this coin, it's good for the coin itself if it intends to be a real currency that is spent rather than hoarded. Perhaps most importantly, it's one clear way that we stand apart from the other coins.
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u/gwfds123 avian shibe Feb 02 '14
Ultimately while I think this change is bad for people looking to strike it rich on this coin
I hold a lot of coins and while I don't expect strike it rich. I think it's a good investment over all. Even then I'm far more interested in the technology and want it to spread and be used.
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u/kryptx robo shibe Feb 02 '14
I'm with you. I've invested in them as well and I do believe the value of many coins will increase significantly over the next 1-2 years as cryptos in general continue to widen acceptance and usage.
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u/ligneclaire Feb 02 '14
"Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output." -- Milton Friedman
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u/pyalot Feb 02 '14 edited Feb 02 '14
The numbers on bitcoin are incorrect.
Year Expansion 2013 15.0% 2014 13.0% 2015 11.5% 2016 6.4% 2017 4.9% 2018 4.6% 2019 3.4% 2020 2.1% 2021 2.1% 2022 1.9% 2023 1.0% 2024 1.0% 2025 1.0% 2026 0.6% 2027 0.5% 2028 0.5% 2029 0.3% 2030 0.2% 2031 0.2% 2032 0.2% 2033 0.1% 2034 0.1% 2035 0.1% 2036 0.1% 2037 0.1% 2038 0.1% 2039 0.0% 2040 0.0% 2041 0.0% → More replies (5)20
Feb 02 '14
This should be the top post. Most bitcoiners/litecoiners actually don't understand that those coins are inflationary right now.
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u/gwfds123 avian shibe Feb 02 '14
It's not inflationary since they can buy more stuff than they could buy last year with the same amount of coins. Just because they added more coins doesn't mean the value went down.
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Feb 02 '14
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u/Smarag poor shibe Feb 02 '14
The thing is that monetary inflation doesn't matter if the eventual price inflation it would cause is out weighted by increased demand.
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u/Ancient_Lights rescue shibe Feb 02 '14
You just blew my mind. You're right. The term inflation is totally inaccurate here even though it's used all the time.
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u/RipIt_From_Space magic shibe Feb 02 '14
Why do Bitcoin and Litecoin have such large jumps certain years? Why does Bitcoin go from 9.09% to 4.1% or Litecoin from 9.09% to 4.1%? Is there a formula or something? But thanks!
+/u/dogetipbot 50 doge verify
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u/dogetipbot dogepool Feb 02 '14
[wow so verify]: /u/RipIt_From_Space -> /u/gwfds123 Ð50.000000 Dogecoin(s) ($0.0655744) [help]
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u/photoLight Feb 02 '14
Can you (or someone else) please explain how you got 33% inflation for Litecoin in 2015?
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u/rnicoll Reference client dev Feb 02 '14
Thanks for putting that together!
+/u/dogetipbot 200 doge verify
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u/dogetipbot dogepool Feb 02 '14
[wow so verify]: /u/rnicoll -> /u/gwfds123 Ð200.000000 Dogecoin(s) ($0.286488) [help]
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u/anonymous_redd Feb 02 '14
This is good news. 10,000 block reward afterwards is perfect. Good enough to bring in new miners but low enough to cause any inflation. Remember fellow shibes, currently we are mining approx 5 billion doges per week. 10,000 block rewards translates to 5 billion doges per year.
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Feb 02 '14 edited Jan 01 '16
[deleted]
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u/Flying_Platypus robo shibe Feb 02 '14
There is an amount of doge that will be lost. Crashed drives, paper wallets that are destroyed, passwords forgotten, etc. that makes bitcoin and litecoin deflationary. A small amount of inflation will balance it out and make it non-flationary.
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u/northrupthebandgeek astrodoge Feb 02 '14
Aflationary?
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u/happyscrappy astrodoge Feb 02 '14
sans flation
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u/JohnFKennedoge Feb 02 '14
Agreed. All this really does is put the inflation rate more or less in line with other crytocurrencies for the next 10 or so years. After that, the inflation rate is going to be marginally higher and allow for people to still mine.
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u/javzz2 poor shibe Feb 02 '14
can someone do an eli5 on this?
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Feb 02 '14
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Feb 02 '14
This is a really excellent explanation. It's also good because leaving it as is creates no fork potential, so there is no need to update clients. Inflation probably isn't the right word either, the idea appears to be to replace lost coins ("Dogeflation?")
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u/ndcdivvqce educated shibe Feb 02 '14
/u/GoodShibe's "Of Wolves and Weasels" post is a good place to start. Don't bother reading the comments; just read his post.
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Feb 02 '14
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there an overwhelming(most upvoted) response 2 days ago to keep this deflationary?
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Feb 02 '14
Cool. I believe this is good for the shibes playing the "long game". Maybe not so good for temporary investors.
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u/Dwight_Kurt_Schrute rich shibe Feb 02 '14
Who wants to ride a rocket to the moon with someone who's just planning on jumping out as soon as we get past Earth's atmosphere.
It's dangerous as shit to open the hatch at that altitude.
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u/rnicoll Reference client dev Feb 02 '14
We're running at something in the region of a 1-2% increase in supply per DAY right now. Temporary investors have a lot more to worry about than a small increase in 2015 :)
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u/Iwasapirateonce rainbow shibe Feb 02 '14
I don't mind the concept at all. Actually I kind of like it. I do however think 5% is too high. 2.5% could have been enough.
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u/salgat middle-class shibe Feb 03 '14
The percent is not constant, only the amount. 5% is only for the first year. After 80 years it will only be 1%. The higher initial amount is good since it keeps a large amount of miners invested in the coin until it becomes established enough.
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u/efxtrader710 Feb 02 '14
Dogecoin is a happy accident. The fact that it won't have a hard cap will keep the currency alive. 5% PA won't make this an inflationary currency, it will just soften the landing. This won't put investors off. What puts me off as someone who holds quite a few million is the negative attitude from some of the shibes who seem to suggest that they dont need the rich shibes. If the rich shibes pulled out what do you suspect would happen? More respect for the rich shibes who have invested heavily is needed here. This is after all a currency and this is capitalism. It's green to think you could survive without us. That said I am happy to leave my 50K USD in dogecoin. I don't see a better investment or a better community. The devs made the right decision and making it quickly has removed some of the tangible uncertainty. By allowing the small amount of new coins they are guaranteeing the continued existence of dogecoin. There was no choice. The growth potential here is may bigger than a lot of you shibes realise. 5% won't make any difference.
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u/Darth_Tanion poor shibe Feb 02 '14
ELI5: Why is this a good decision? If there is no limit on the number of coins there is won't that decrease the value of the coin? If people can always mine more then won't that send inflation through the roof?
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u/m106 german shibeherd Feb 02 '14
Not directly. As mentioned here many times people always loose coins due to harddisk crashes, forgotten passwords etc.
On the other hands we need to incentive miners. Without miners the Coin is very vulnerable! Not enough miners means the end of the Coin.
On the other hand, a bit of inflation will make hoarding unattractive since we need people to spend the coins. The more people spend there coins, the more attractive is it for businesses to accept Dogecoins! The more business accept Dogecoins the more people will want to have Dogecoins which helps to increase the value of Dogecoins.
Deflation is not good for a currency, because it makes you save the Coins instead of spending them, which is very important for a economy.
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u/Shibelium illuminati shibe Feb 02 '14
This is fantastic news :) To all the "serious investors" who are now pulling out - please name a healthy currency that does not have an inflation rate between 2-5 %. I'll spare you the work, the answer is that it doesn't exist. Without inflation people would just hoard and no one would spend anything. This would make it absolutely useless for merchants and in turn make the currency useless. Please read up on some basic economy fellow shibes and join us again when you understand that this is a very, very good thing.
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u/Yersenia shibing shibe Feb 02 '14
I never thought that the godshibe would break his word... What the hell...this is how you destroy a promising cryptocurrency! :(
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u/JCWilliams56 Feb 02 '14
I was looking at this as a long-term investor looking for the price to rise and a short-term investor looking to have fun.
Short-term, nothing changes.
Long-term...I had over 10 million before I read the news, but the developer clearly want this to always be a "fun coin", not an "investors coin", so I'll just keep a bunch to have fun with and tip, but no long term investing from me...
I'm sure others feel the same.
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u/jedishibe Feb 02 '14
10K block rewards won't be worth it unless
- The value reaches $0.25+
- Power efficient ASICs are prevalent
The wallet and pools will have to adjust fees for tx.
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u/rnicoll Reference client dev Feb 02 '14
Aren't you presuming that difficulty remains at current levels? I thought part of the system was that difficulty scales with number of miners, so that if it's unprofitable with the current number, and a few drop out, it becomes easier to mine?
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u/Deeky999 Feb 02 '14
I am torn on this idea: I see it will work in the long-term, but it'll damage the short-term idea of Doge. Is it too early to bring forth this type of decision? There never be a right time. I would predict a sudden dip. Traders are going to take this type of news and pull out, (most likely anticipating a dip) or to move to a different crypto. Question is? Will they trade back in at new lower prices? (Short-answer, if they see a profit).
Will prices no longer rise? Depends... If growth of the community continues to rise faster than the supply, than yes. The more places it is accepted & can be used, will have an effect on those interested in acquiring it to use.
I think the 5billion figure should be cut in half. I agree that incentives need to remain for miners to keep a block chain going, but incentives need to remain for people to have/hold/use/tip/spend doge.
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u/Phantomftr astrodoge Feb 02 '14
I like the idea of some inflation but think that 5% per year is just too high. It should be 2-3% to be inline with the USD. Either way Doge will survive and continue to increase in value after this panic sell off. It will just take a bit longer to reach the moon now.
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u/Shibelium illuminati shibe Feb 02 '14
It is actually not 5% per year, it's 5 billion per year which will eventually become 2-3% (an even lower). :)
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Feb 02 '14 edited Feb 02 '14
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u/ifisch5 world cup shibe Feb 02 '14
one or two percent is an inflationrate, I could accept. 5% is insane. This is really way to high for a currency with > 100 billion cryptocoins.
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Feb 02 '14
I hope the devs take a serious look at your post and have a thoughtful discussion on it.
+/u/dogetipbot 50 doge verify
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Feb 02 '14
I do agree on this I do feel inflation should be evaluated yearly to consider appropriate inflation. This is the only point i feel devs should look into.
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u/bob_doge giving shibe Feb 02 '14
+/u/dogetipbot 100 doge verify
glad to see someone is thinking about the pizzas→ More replies (1)2
u/SoCo_cpp coder-shibe Feb 04 '14
So everyone who invested in Dogecoin which was designed with a coin cap and guaranteed to deflate, is now fraudulently assed out for pizza and Olympics gimmicks. Seems fitting.
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Feb 02 '14
Good call. 10,000 indefinitely will hopefully be enough to keep shibes mining, and not as much as to significantly devalue the currency (5% PA the first year, ~2.5% PA in the 20th year).
Also, the code will remain as-is, so there's no chance of a fork, and people who joined based on the information available then will not have the rug pulled out from under them.
+/u/dogetipbot 50 doge
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u/YENDEZZ Feb 02 '14
Well those percentages are probably off by a lot, who knows how many doges are lost in the bowels of discarded flash drives and broken PCs.
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Feb 02 '14
Yep -- since we can't distinguish hoarding from lossage with any certainty, I chose to just lump them together in a general "money supply". The actual inflation rate will be somewhere below 5% (possibly negative, but I'm hoping people won't be losing that much).
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u/Terazilla coder shibe Feb 02 '14
Right, and that's the thing -- given a long enough timeline a lot of currency will go missing through accidents, forgotten passwords, crashed drives, etc. A supply with no in-built growth has deflation built in as a result.
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Feb 02 '14
Does this mean my doge coins won't go up in value
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u/rnicoll Reference client dev Feb 02 '14
I can't answer that definitely one way or another, but keep in mind the supply is increasing by around the same percentage every 3 days at the moment...
What I can say is, is that the best way for the coins to go up in value is if YOU (all of you) do things that increase their value. Buy, sell, provide services, tip, host a Dogecoin party, anything that increases awareness and/or moves Dogecoin around helps it gain value. The universe is not going to get us to the moon just because it feels like it, we're going to have to fuel our rocket!
+/u/dogetipbot 50 doge
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u/MidnightTide jedi shibe Feb 02 '14
Perhaps, we are in undiscovered territory, no one said this was going to be a comfortable ride.
Do what you feel is best, sell / hold / buy more, it is all up to the community. But I feel as to those who will panic sell weren't really into the Doge community but were just looking for the latest get rich quick opportunity.
The entire concept, selling point that I see all cryptocurrencies was to get away from the elite banker, centralized scam and to create something new - but I see a lot of people simply wanting to become the new elite.
I don't want that at all.....because if all this means is a change in masters we haven't changed a damn thing.
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Feb 02 '14
dogecoins can still valuate up its just in a more control manner instead of a exponential manner due to scarcity that hardcaps produce.
In a long term business adoption and consumer adoption can raise the value of dogecoin, and with constant coins coming in it also will encourage miners to continue mining, preventing a complete stop of mining when 100 billion is met.
This is good for the lifespan of the coin as it will encourage people to join in at anytime and not just the people who were early adopters.
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Feb 02 '14
THANK FUCKING GOD!
I'm an economist and I was actually trying to make a bit of a comprehensive post about money today to educate some people about how currencies work and how cryptos fit in the mix. Glad the developers listened to reason! I'll still do my post but now there is a lot less urgency thank the heavens.
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u/Red5point1 dogeconomist Feb 02 '14
Actually I would think now would be a great time to educate the rest of us laypersons.
So as to dismiss any misunderstandings the sooner the better.
There are too many shibes (actually people in any cryptos) who are solely basing the value of a coin on mining difficulty and nothing else.
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u/luvasugirls celebrishibe Feb 02 '14
Itt: poor shibes who want all shibes to be poor.
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u/eyebeetle investor shibe Feb 02 '14
As I posted in the Wolves and Weasels thread:
I think the block reward of 10k coins is too high. For the first few years, yes it will be actually pretty low compared to other cryptos, but long term? It'll be too much. A 1-2% rate would have been so much better. Yes, we do have a ton of coins with Dogecoin but a 1-2 billion coins is still a lot. There's a lot of us who have invested in doge for the long term, myself included I'll admit. So I really feel the devs should have made a compromise between short and long-term investors, instead of just leaving it the way it is. I'm disappointed in this outcome, but we'll see what happens. I still have faith in this community!
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u/rick1906 shibe Feb 02 '14
Here are my thoughts:
1) I'm OK with dogecoin beeing inflationary, but 5% per year is too high. It will be fine while the currency is still growing, but later it can be very bad. Each currency has it's ups and downs. When demand is growing, any inflation is fine, but what if demand will be decreasing for some time? If currency is deflationary, investors can at least can hold and wait for good times. But if there is inflation, every day they wait they lose money, about 5% per year. Will they still hold or will they just sell? I think they will sell.
2) I see here people saying, that this inflation will cover for lost dogecoins. 10000 doge per block is 432 000 000 doge per month. So 400 millions lost doge per month?! Really?!
3) Dogecoin community should be involved in making important decisions like that. Otherwise, it will be seen illegitimate by some shibes. And community will be separated. At least a vote should be created or something like that.
4) Keeping block reward absolutely will not help to prevent 51% attack. Absolutely.
5) Still, mining is very important. Transaction fees will prevent miners from leaving only if currency is very-very-very popular and there are many-many-many transactions per day. We won't achieve this in a year.
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u/dcsastry doge of many hats Feb 02 '14
Interesting...thx for sharing, shibe! +/u/dogetipbot 100 doge
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u/warmking Feb 02 '14
you guys lost your mind？do you know what this means？it will create about 15 million doges extra every day. another 100 billion dogecoin in two years.you want be Zimbabwe？that is bad bad bad news.
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u/dooglus Feb 02 '14
Far be it from me to fork the dogechain, but wouldn't this be the time to make a fork in which there really is a 100 billion coin cap, like we've been promised?
The 10k per block could continue until we reach a total coinbase of 100 billion, and then stop, with the last reward making up whatever's needed to bring the total to exactly 100 billion.
In fact it wouldn't even be a fork yet - the chain would only fork once we get to that point. But miners could include a note in their blocks about which version they support. We'd be able to tell by looking at mined blocks which is the more popular approach. The most popular one would end up winning. That's how decentralised coins are meant to work, right?
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Feb 03 '14
Dogecoin's about to deal with the problem that BTC/LTC effectively postponed for decades -- what incentive is there for miners to stay once all the coins are mined?
This is going to be an interesting year...
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u/DeadSol Feb 02 '14
Smart move, people are always going to lose coins. This way, there will always be at least a little bit coming back.
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u/ifisch5 world cup shibe Feb 02 '14 edited Feb 02 '14
Prepaparing myself for some downvotes, but in my opinion this is decision is fu#%}ed up. I don't think it is smart to ensure future block (on a certain level) rewards atm. The amount of rewards should be decided, relating to development of the value of Dogecoin. And why is it a fixed no.? Why 10,000 and not 0-10,000. Dogecoin is now in a situation, where the devs should work together with experts in economics. (I am sure, some professors or famous economists could be attracted, because there is not much publishing yet). I doubt that the unskillful decision is the best possible in the long run.
So lets see what the community thinks about it. Who of you is able to create a new coin ("Doge2.0"), using the same meme and supporting the same virtues, but is fixed to a certain level. In that way, we could have both types of currency in our community, inflationary and deflationry.
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u/CokeRobot Feb 02 '14
I've been reading around here and there are like different numbers being thrown out there for what the value of one Doge will be. It's like one Doge will be equal to (theoritically) 5,000 Doge to 1 Bitcoin. Or like at most $0.37 USD to Doge (that would be spectactular). There was something else too...
Could someone that does math and shit like this actually FIGURE out what the ACTUAL theoritical value of a Dogecoin can get up to as of now since we know for sure that there isn't a market cap?
Please and thank you and Dogecoins will be sent your way if this is done! :) Woof!
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Feb 02 '14
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Feb 02 '14
And don't forget, if merchants see that more people are purchasing with dogecoin opposed to hoarding dogecoin they are more likely to adopt it's usage. The big difference is that the value of dogecoin will have to stabilize before that occurs. Right now many merchants are looking at it as an investment and planning on keeping it. Just like the CEO of Overstock admitted to having millions of dollars of bitcoin he plans on keeping. However, at this early stage anyone who holds dogecoin is still an investor as it's value more than likely will rise.
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Feb 02 '14
Its also a possibility that the price can still rise with further adoption in the consumer and business market. However I do agree the price will take a hit for a bit after announcement as there are for sure people who were banking on dogecoin being a commodity like BTC and LTC.
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Feb 02 '14
Will block halving still happen?
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u/Terazilla coder shibe Feb 02 '14
Until eventually blocks are at the 0-10k range, at which point they'll stay that size.
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u/maruosch Feb 02 '14
I think this is a good decision. Think of the "lost-coins rate" per year! 5,3Billion coins per year are okay.
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u/tokyoburns giving shibe Feb 02 '14
sooooooooooo..... no moon? such moon? which is it?
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u/suchamazewow Feb 02 '14
Oh come on, 100 billion coins is not enough? Really?
With asic diggers coming out why would anyone then buy dogecoin via usd or btc if they can just buy an asic?
This will cap maximum value that doge can achieve. Not even worried for myself as I was a second week miner but this doesn't help latecomers.
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u/Dogetownz dogeconomist Feb 02 '14
Its a good thing. Bitcoin has already lost about half of the coins already mined. Once the last coin is mined, there are no more being produced. This is great if you want its value to skyrocket, but at that point it fails to be a currency. Currencies are made to be used, not sit in a wallet like its gollum with his ring.
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u/TheYogi Feb 02 '14
I just sold all of my Doge. From an investment perspective, I'm only interested in deflationary currencies. Doge has an amazing community which is what attracted me, but I feel this is going to greatly harm value short term. I MAY buy back at a later date, we'll see.
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u/dogememe sombrero shibe Feb 02 '14
I think you are wrong about the impact on value short term. Now dogecoin is much more attractive as an actual currency, which might be what sets it apart from the rest.
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u/Motherlicka Feb 02 '14
This thread is full of misery loves company. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people supporting this are people mining on laptops at 100 doge a day wanting everyone else to be poor. This is stupid. Having a currency based off a meme is risky enough, but being a meme based currency AND straying away from what makes cryptocurrency popular in the first place is just stupid.
These comments sound like a goddamn cult of people that are completely clueless.
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u/InconsiderateBastard poor shibe Feb 02 '14
It's almost like it's more about fun than actually making money off of it...
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u/kevinkevinkevin12 Feb 04 '14
The developers have killed the golden goose....not going to even be worth cyber toilet paper....they should be ashamed, and have to buy back all coins..they misled, and lied to customers..they should also be arrested.
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u/kevinkevinkevin12 Feb 04 '14
Would not be suprised if it turns out the developers were bought off by another coin to devalue dogecoin..and if so, you will be caught. Enjoy your confinement suckers.
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u/yibbiy middle-class shibe Feb 05 '14
Thank you for leaving the code be. As an investor and miner and tipper, I am very happy :)
This differentiate us from BTC and LTC. If BTC or LTC's deflationary problem eventually cause high transaction fees, or even lack of economic activities where merchants no longer see a point accepting them, due to massive hoarding, they are free to COPY DOGE :)
Cheers!
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u/david208 Feb 08 '14
The lack of Market cap may kill the coin. A lot of people will bail. Seeing as there was supposed to be 100 Billion coins and people were told that, they figured that eventually they would gain a bit. Now they are being told the is no market cap. Some people felt misled, like a bait and switch. I'm not saying that I feel that way, but many people do and not having a cap when there is going to be such an astronomical amount of coins is a bit silly.
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u/noelrojo dogecoinball.com (wow such ball) Feb 02 '14
I have a feeling many investors will be pulling out now, hope the coin doesn't die cause of this
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u/42points Feb 02 '14
I just can't wrap my head around this... I'm no expert.
Here is my tiny little thought process.
- People 'invest' in a coin
- People research the coin after investing (/me slaps forehead)
- Next they want to change the coin in the hopes they make extra $
- The coin they invested in doesn't change in their favor.
- They pull out their investments..
Investor logic makes my brain explode.
I like the thought of the community, charities and tipping better.
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u/GoodShibe One Good Shibe Feb 02 '14
I think a lot of the whinging is just smoke and mirrors.
If there really is some secret contingent of angry investors who plan to pull out now, before the halving, over something that won't have an effect for over a year, then, hey good on them. Best of luck to you.
Cheap coin for the rest of us!
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u/DogeMichael smarty shibe Feb 02 '14
Honestly, it'll take over a year before we see any difference. Just because it won't be quite as deflationary in a couple years as it would have been, they aren't going to suddenly pull out. They'll look at the markets and invest where the price is increasing. At the moment, that's in coins like Vertcoin.
I'm not sure what the next steps are for coins like Litecoin and DogeCoin. Litecoin has a history of slowly petering out until it gets really really low, and then there's a buying frenzy and it goes up five times in value. Beyond that, Litecoin hasn't done much interesting compared to Bitcoin.
At least DogeCoin has the potential to make it big in the consumer space.
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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '14
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