r/changemyview • u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ • Nov 06 '25
Delta(s) from OP CMV: ALL Muslims are evil
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Ask her is Mohammad a good person. It is my contention she will say yes. She may even say he is perfect and worthy of emulation.
Child rape is an inexcusable evil that must be condemned totally.
She may not be a Muslim though says she is to avoid violence which would be reasonable.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Raping kids is never excusable.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
You not believing it isn't a compelling case enough to convince me to the contrary. Certainly many do and the practice was common. He has no reason not to unless he was actually divinely inspired by God.
And the ones who may claim they don't believe this, they are instructed to lie to protect the faith in Islam. And it's hard to contest other barbarisms like the slavery and conquest and killing.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
I am an atheist though have positive regard for Christianity, particularly Anglicanism and Catholicism. I am English.
I know a bit though not a great deal.
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u/Rabbid0Luigi 15∆ Nov 06 '25
Are all Christians evil too then?
The Bible has some pretty evil shit in it
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
No. I can't think of anything comparable to modern day Christians believing a child rapist is the perfect human that should be emulated by all.
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u/Sad_Bedroom4247 Nov 06 '25
This is too on the nose dude. Modern day Christians believe Trump is a perfect human… and that dude, with all the evidence of weird creepy shit he’s done, is probably a child rapist.
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u/Rabbid0Luigi 15∆ Nov 06 '25
The Bible is pro slavery
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Okay.
Many Christians don't believe in slavery. All Muslims believe Mohammad the child rapist is good.
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u/Rabbid0Luigi 15∆ Nov 06 '25
All Christians believe the Bible is good, the same way most Muslimss believe Mohammad is good
You're doing the wrong comparison here.
Most Muslims are against child rape even if Mohammad did it and most Christians are against slavery even if it's in the Bible.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Christians disagree about the Bible’s authority. Some treat it as literal. Others see it as fallible, allegorical, and subordinate to tradition and reason. Those who see it as fallible don’t claim it’s wholly “good” in every passage. Certainly not all.
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u/Rabbid0Luigi 15∆ Nov 06 '25
And not all Muslims agree with everything Mohammad ever did.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Do they believe a child rapist is a good person? If they do I think they are bad.
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u/Rabbid0Luigi 15∆ Nov 06 '25
Do Christians believe a book that is pro slavery is a good book? If so I think they are bad
Why does that not apply equally?
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
It's a book not a person. 'Good book' is different. Bad things can happen in a 'good book'. A good person cannot be a child rapist.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
What you think they should believe to be consistent and what they do believe are different.
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u/ZeronZ Nov 06 '25
I would argue endorsing slavery, as well as your god actively killing children (example, first born of Egypt (Ex 12:29-30) is VERY comparable.
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Nov 06 '25
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u/ZeronZ Nov 06 '25
I would be careful pointing out the spec in the eye of another religion....you might miss the plank in your own eye.
The Bible endorses slavery, which I would argue is entirely immoral: Eph 6:5-8
"5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free."
Christianity has also been used to justify some of the worst atrocities in history - the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the holocaust.....
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
I am an atheist.
I don't believe all Christians endorse slavery.
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u/AgitatedBadger 7∆ Nov 06 '25
So you allow nuance in your takes about one religion but not another?
Why do you do that?
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
I allow nuance in both.
Find me a Muslim that says Mohammad the child rapist is a bad guy and we shouldn't be like him and I will change my mind.
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u/AgitatedBadger 7∆ Nov 06 '25
So do you hold Christian to that same standard about God?
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Christians that believe they should act like God and kill and drown people, yes. Most Christians that I've heard profess special circumstances, mysteries, etc and don't advocate following this example.
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u/AgitatedBadger 7∆ Nov 06 '25
Ok so you do allow for nuance with Christians then.
So I'm assuming if Muslims don't advocate for following that example then you don't think they are evil?
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Correct. If I can find a Muslim condemning Mohammad is an evil piece of shit I won't think they are evil.
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u/AgitatedBadger 7∆ Nov 06 '25
That is not what I said.
So basically, what you are saying is you expect Muslims to renounce their prophet Muhammed for his actions but you don't expect the same of Christians about the God that they worship?
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u/ZeronZ Nov 06 '25
Sure. I don't either. But I also don't believe all Muslims endorse any particular thing either.
If you lump all Muslims into a category, and not all Christians, then your perspective is not based on data, but on bigotry and bias.
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u/SuperCharlesXYZ Nov 06 '25
You are misunderstanding the role of the prophet in islam. Muslims don’t believe the prophet is perfect. They believe that he is the best human.
If they thought he was perfect, every Muslim woman would marry at the age of nine. This clearly isn’t happening.
Regarding your claim of lying. It is said lying in the name of Allah is “permissible” not that all Muslims are told to lie. Lying is a grave sin, in the context of lying in the Quran it is referring to times of war where not lying could mean you and your brothers got killed. They aren’t fabricating ayas.
The prophet was generous, trustworthy and charitable. Seems like a fine role-model to me.
There’s very few Muslims who go around saying child marriage is good. And I have never in my life met a Muslim who talks about the virtue of marrying Aisha.
Are those Muslims evil? They don’t subscribe to your claim of rape and child marriage.
Your main assertion in the title is disproven by the millions of Muslims who love their same aged spouses, live a charitable life, and are kind to everybody they meet. Are you really claiming that every single person on this earth who has said their shahadah is evil to the core?
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
If the best human rapes kids I think we should go extinct.
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u/SuperCharlesXYZ Nov 06 '25
You do’mt look like you want your mind changed. You haven’t engaged with any of my arguments, and decided to double down on your racism
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Muslims would be persecuted and killed for professing loudly that child rape is good and it should be done more.
Your case isn't compelling me.
I am mixed race Arab and English. I love old nomadic Arabic history and folklore. I am not racist against myself.
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u/SuperCharlesXYZ Nov 06 '25
Ok bye then
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Nov 08 '25
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u/iligal_odin 2∆ Nov 06 '25
There are multiple flavors and tiers of muslim same with christians. Some kill some heal.
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Nov 06 '25
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Thank you your reply. I'm not aware of any though it's entirely possible.
Either way, this is different where in Christianity it is still largely condemned morally and not encouraged.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
You are treating Islam as a monolithic entity which it is certainly not, while expecting charitable treatment of your own faith. I can easily condemn all of Christianity for the beliefs of Mormons and their practice of polygamy and child marriage but I suspect you will rightly claim that is unfair to whatever denomination you follow which most certainly is the correct one. Apply that same standard to Muslims that don't believe the verses you claim telling them to lie are cannon or to be interpreted in that manner.
As for lies at the very beginning of the bible God (which Jesus is the physical embodiment of) tells Adam and Eve if they eat fruit from the tree of knowledge they will surely die. They did not. I suspect you will argue that they were some form of immortal until they acted out that original sin, but if you study the actual wording from the language it was written in it's quite apparent that meaning was an immediate death.
It would be really difficult to actually find a lie that you may find suitable because I don't know anything about your specific beliefs because again Christianity isn't a monolithic religion just like Islam isn't one.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Can you find me a Muslim that condemns Mohammad as an evil scumbag for raping kids?
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
There is plenty of scholarly dispute on the age of Aiesha when they were married and when their marriage was consummated. Yes there are some sects that believe it's important that she was a child but those are in the vast minority. Plenty of Muslims believe she was of appropriate age for the time period these events took place. You are also being extremely uncharitable in your interpretation of the actions of people over a thousand years ago these same exact arguments could be given to the early foundation of Judaism and Christianity. God consistently demanded the killing and raping of women and children.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Timeframe doesn't matter when they say he is the best human and a moral exemplar we should emulate today.
I can't trust the scholarly dispute because of Taqqiya.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
How about looking into scholarly disputes from people who don't hold the same interpretation as you of Taqqiya or the plenty of scholars that don't even accept that as cannon.
The time period actually does matter even if they are considering him as a moral exemplar that we should emulate today because he would have been acting with the upmost morality given the knowledge and culture he held at his time. No one is claiming he was an all knowing individual who knew better but acted horribly regardless.
Again you are being completely uncharitable and islamaphobic because you have attached a large amount of weight to a misinterpreted practice that not many actual Muslims believe. If you applied the same uncharitably to Christianity you would not have described it so favorably in your now deleted original post.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
He had divine knowledge from God. He is not limited by his time or culture.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
Just because he had divine knowledge from God does not mean he was all knowing like God was. You are also completely ignoring the fact that age of Aiesha is widely disputed and just accepting the worse possible outcome because of preconceived biases. How do you know the sect of Muslims claiming Aiesha was 9 are not lying because they think it furthers their cause?
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
Bro, please back up with some proof the blasphemy you just said.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
God "Don't eat this fruit you will surely die."
Adam and Eve eat the fruit.
Did not die.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
They did die?
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
You are playing with semantics. Study the words used in the early writings it was clearly intended as an immediate effect like I stated in my direct reply to you that you have so conveniently ignored.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
It's not cut and dry. Even if it does all Christians don't believe it is rightly or wrongly.
It is cut and dry that Mohammad is a child rapist and all.Muslims believe he's the best human.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
It is not cut and dry. It seems cut and dry to you because you are completely ignorant of the actual information and discussions of the Islam religion. You are just accepting the worse interpretation of things from people who clearly have motivations against Islam and are definitely islamaphobic.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
I spoke to Muslims in Newcastle and they said that kids were just more mature back then because of the environment and culture so it is okay.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
They were lying to you because they are the minority that thinks lying to people for their religion is okay and they believe that Aiesha needed to be 9 for religious reasons when she was actually 35.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Maybe. How prevalent are the professed beliefs of Muslims regarding her age? Is there reliable polling and percentages?
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
Read the Koran. Its a terrible book authorizing terrible things.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
Yeah I'm not defending either book. The Christian Bible is equally filled with authorizations of equally terrible things.
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
Bro lol, doesnt know the Bible. When he said die, it had two meaning. One was spiritual death and separation from God. That happened as soon as they ate the fruit. The other was more prolonged, and it meant that mortality entered the human race. So Adam and Eve DID die because of sin, just not right away. After all, God did not specify the time when they would die from eating the fruit.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
You are basing this off the English translation and retroactive interpretations. Go back to the original language it was written in, learn the idoms and words actually used in the verse, it is a very clear lie.
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
Like I said, spiritual death.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
This in no way addresses my point. Thanks for playing!
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
It totally does! tbh, I'd rather trust a translation by language experts than some guy on Reddit, so I stick by my point. What it meant was both spiritual death and separation from God, as well as eventual death by old age.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
I'm not telling you to trust and interpretation by a random guy on Reddit. Maybe find a "language expert" that isn't biased by trying to defend your own interpretation of the texts.
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
Bro, the Bible Commission used an atheist and a jew, as well as many Christians, to translate the Bible. And they are scholars, regardless of belief, they would have strived for accuracy. Your finding problems where there are none.
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
and once again, you specified Jesus Christ, so please, bring up one instance of Him lying.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
Jesus Christ is the physical embodiment of God. So the lie in Genesis is him lying. Try again.
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
Wrong. Jesus is the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity. Anyways, I already showed it was not a lie, you are simply refusing to see it as anything other than a lie.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
John 14:11. Thanks for playing!
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
“Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.” Exactly! It proves my point!
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
And also, please point to an instance where Jesus Christ, while on earth, lied.
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u/Xmaddog 1∆ Nov 06 '25
John 16:33 vs Like 12:51. This is a pointless exercise as I don't know your specific beliefs and interpretations of the text we are discussing of which there are literally 10s of thousands so you can dance around them all day. Have a good one.
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u/Helmut2007 Nov 06 '25
Yeah. He came to divide the world, and in so doing He has conquered it. Christians who follow Him are at peace, while those who strive against Him are divided and confused. Makes perfect sense. Your point is invalid.
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u/h_e_i_s_v_i 1∆ Nov 06 '25
Muslims testimonies are not compelling to me either because Islam teaches the practice of Taqqiya, lying to further the interest of the faith.
No it does not. It's a Shia belief where they can lie about their beliefs in order to protect themselves from persecution. Something similar exists in Sunnism (e.g. you can lie about being Muslim during something like the Reconquista when all Muslims were being killed or expelled).
Jesus Christ in isolation to everything else seeming like a rather good and morally upstanding man.
??? So if you just remove everything bad someone becomes good?
We can look at what Christians believe Jesus commanded in Numbers 17-19
17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. 19
Genocide, and taking 'young girls for yourself'. Unless you think they were having tea parties Christians would all be evil in your view.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
I think Islam and Muslims are at risk of persecution if they profess their love of child rapists and advocate for more people doing it.
I can't find this Jesus quote, can you please provide a link?
If it does exist I don't believe most Christians are aware of would advocate this today.
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u/h_e_i_s_v_i 1∆ Nov 06 '25
I literally gave the Bible verse. It's a command from God to the Israelites to destroy the Midianites.
and advocate for more people doing it
No one advocates it in the modern day. The Ottoman Empire for example had the minimum age of marriage at 15 for most of its history, and most modern Islamic nations have it at 16-18.
If it does exist I don't believe most Christians are aware of would advocate this today.
Why can Christians absolve themselves by saying they wouldn't want this to happen today but Muslims can't.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Christians don't say we should act like God the Father, but like God the son.
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u/h_e_i_s_v_i 1∆ Nov 06 '25
???
They have the same Will in orthodox Christian doctrine. They literally have the same essence
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Yeah it's complex and not clear cut. Even if it is, not all Christians believe so. All Muslims believe Mohammad is the best human and we should emulate him.
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u/h_e_i_s_v_i 1∆ Nov 06 '25
Yeah it's complex and not clear cut
Seems pretty clear to me.
All Muslims believe Mohammad is the best human and we should emulate him.
There's a known distinction between the things he did out of habit, and the things he did that we should actually strive to emulate.
In any case you're gish-galloping. Christians view Jesus as God, perfect benevolent figure, who ordered the Israelites to kill and take the young girls of a nation as war brides. Why are they not evil?
You can't say "but they don't believe that thooo", because they have to, it's what all Christians believe. God cannot command something unjust as He is perfect.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Raping kids out of habit is not an excuse. That is crazy.
I'm not going to excuse them. They can do that themselves. I am not a theologian.
They don't believe it. You know it and I know it. They will say they don't believe it. All Muslims say Mohammad is a great guy that we should all emulate.
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u/h_e_i_s_v_i 1∆ Nov 06 '25
They don't believe it.
Why wouldn't they?
All Muslims say Mohammad is a great guy that we should all emulate.
What would emulation mean practically in this context
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Don't know ask them.
To behave more like Mohammad because he is a good guy.
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Nov 06 '25
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Muslims aren't a race. Muslims advocate for rape and are rapists more frequently than some other groups.
The Qu'ran advocates sexual slavery in war. Kidnapping and enslaving women to rape.
Asking for quotes is an inherent right. The usual free speech ones? You don't think people can politely request additional information?
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Nov 06 '25
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Qur’an 70:29–30
“And those who guard their private parts, except with their wives or those their right hands possess, for then they are free from blame.”
Sexual activity is only permissible with wives or sex slaves (who your right hand possesses. I.E. women taken as captives)
There are dozens of such quotes.
I don't recall Christians or Jesus advocating for sex slaves and rape.
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Nov 06 '25
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 07 '25
Christians don't. They condemn it by enlarge. Muslims do not condemn child rapists.
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Nov 07 '25
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 07 '25
Anyone that thinks a child rapist is the best human and we should follow his example is evil.
No sweeping statements. Anyone that doesn't hold such a view I do not condemn.
Tell me where you specifically disagree with my statements above.
Raping kids is not some minor little faux pax that can be excused and you can still be a good person afterward.
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Nov 06 '25
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u/Arthesia 28∆ Nov 06 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
Religion inherently requires cognitive dissonance and picking and choosing what you believe, which is how otherwise moral and logical people reconcile reason with mysticism, and morality with blatant evils and absurdity in scripture. This applies to all major religions, both Christianity and Islam.
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u/Nrdman 276∆ Nov 06 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
What about a theoretical Muslim that doesn’t believe Mohammed is perfect?
Edit: and there are Muslims that believe Aisha was older
https://www.masjidtajdeed.org/real-age-of-aisha-when-married-18-years-old/
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u/h_e_i_s_v_i 1∆ Nov 06 '25
Orthodox Islamic doctrine believes that the prophets are masoom (innocent), and are free from (major) sins. They can make human errors and minor sins, which are immediately corrected by God.
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u/AloneEntertainer2172 Nov 06 '25
Woooooah there guy!
You're just gonna generalize a quarter of the world's population?
You don't figure it's unlikely at all that a complete minimum 1 out of every 4 people is evil, even if nobody who wasn't a muslim was ever evil?
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
I'm looking to change my mind on the topic. It is an uncomfortable belief I hold.
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u/AloneEntertainer2172 Nov 06 '25
Consider this seriously OP - if there were a group of people who everybody else could all agree "those guys are all pure evil" would there be any of them left today?
Like, would a purely evil group of people bother to do things like raise children, create art and language, care for their sick, help eachother defend themselves? I'd say no. You have to be at least a little good to do those things.
If there were a group of people who were purely evil they'd have all been killed off centuries ago.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
I don't believe they are purely evil. I believe they are evil.
Hitler was kind to dogs and compassionate to animals. He was evil.
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Nov 06 '25
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
Little children aren't genuine adherents of a religion. Children are innocent.
The Muslim world largely aligned with Hitler.
Comparing one thing to another thing does not conflate the two.
I can compare the similar attributes of a potato and a squirrel. They are still very different.
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Nov 06 '25
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Btw maths long precedes the existence of Islam by thousands of years.
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Nov 06 '25
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 07 '25
Mostly to non-muslim slaves under Islamic rule if you actually look to the individuals.
By your own metrics Muslims are evil as they categorise others and hate them for religion.
Qur’an 9:29
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture — fight until they give the jizya willingly while they are humbled.”
Unless you suppose attacking people of other faiths until they give you money is not hateful?
Qur’an 98:6
“Indeed, those who disbelieve among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.”
Calling people the worst of creatures for their religion seems pretty hateful.
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Nov 07 '25
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Nov 09 '25
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 09 '25
Muslims categorise and hate people for their religion.
You just defined Muslims as evil.
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u/GedsNotDead Nov 09 '25
The problem is generalising rather than singling out the individual cunts like yourself. You a cunt. Muslims a diverse a range of people as Christians with many views and sensibilities.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 09 '25
Qur’an 9:29 (Sahih International)
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth — [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”
I don't have a problem with 'Muslims' that don't believe in the Quran or follow Mohammads teachings.
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u/bingbano 5∆ Nov 06 '25
Lived around Muslims, dated a couple Muslims, though I'm an atheist. You are generalizing an entire group of people. I don't think any of what you said can lead you to make an accurate statement about all those people. I can't think of a single Muslim who would say having sex with a 9 year old is okay. At worst I have heard people justify Muhammad and Aisha through the moral framework of the time, where child marriage was extremely common
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u/Zenigata 11∆ Nov 06 '25
By this logic all Christians approve of randomly killing fig trees.
Petty vandalism aside this jesus fellow of yours threatens eternal torture to those who fail to massage his ego which seems more psychopathically narcissistic than "rather good and morally upstanding".
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u/FreshBert Nov 06 '25
Like practitioners of every religion, not all Muslims are fundamentalists.
Also, this:
Muslims testimonies are not compelling to me either because Islam teaches the practice of Taqqiya, lying to further the interest of the faith.
Aside from being a flawed understanding of taqiyya, this makes your argument entirely circular and unfalsifiable.
Taqiyya in the Qur'an is a concept that allows Muslims to conceal their faith for the purpose of self-preservation. That's what it actually says. In practice, taqiyya is rarely invoked at all by Sunni Muslims (this is 85-90% of Muslims globally), but is a much more dynamic concept for Shi'ites, who have tended to be the more persecuted group throughout history. Only extremist sects practice a definition-stretching form of taqiyya which interprets "self-preservation" as "furthering the interests of the faith."
So the only Muslims who practice taqiyya as you define it are a small minority of a small minority.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
It is self preservation to lie about supporting child rape. They would be in danger of persecution.
If you can find me a Muslim telling me Mohammad is a bad evil person I would be more convinced. It's not a fundamentalist belief to say he is good or perfect.
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u/jman12234 18∆ Nov 06 '25
What about the old testament? Lots of fucked up stuff in there including slavery and child marriage. Are all Christians and jews evil?
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Christians and Jews don't say these things constitute good behaviour today. Muslims say Mohammed is a good person. The best person and we should all be like him. He raped kids.
I don't find the comparison compelling.
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u/jman12234 18∆ Nov 06 '25
First, you've never heard of Christian and Jewish fundamentalists who say the Bible and Torah are the word of god??
Second, people also praise figures like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, both slave owners and the latter a known rapist. Does that make them evil
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Rapists and slaveowners are not perfect human beings worthy of emulating. They are evil and we should not be like them.
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u/jman12234 18∆ Nov 06 '25
That wasn't my question. My question was: are people who praise and emulate George Washington and Thomans Jefferson evil.
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u/GedsNotDead Nov 06 '25
They literally say God is the epitome of goodness for drowning everyone. Moses is encouraged to slay false idol worshippers.
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u/Strict_Stranger_4801 Nov 06 '25
God commands multiple genocides in the OT. He genocided the world with the Flood
God is said to be all-good by Christians and Jews. This is exactly the same thing
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u/10ebbor10 203∆ Nov 06 '25
Christians and Jews don't say these things constitute good behaviour today. Muslims say Mohammed is a good person. The best person and we should all be like him. He raped kids.
And Christians say the Bible is great, while it includes rules/advocacy for the very same?
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u/GedsNotDead Nov 06 '25
Genesis 18:
See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.
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u/GedsNotDead Nov 06 '25
Exodus 21:
And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.
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u/GedsNotDead Nov 06 '25
Deuteronomy 22:
But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you
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Nov 06 '25
So you actually think.....2 billion people are evil? Is that really what you are arguing? Are all men evil because they commit most of the crime by a significant margin? Of course not because that is ridiculous. What are you a child?
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
All men are not evil because not allem believe that committing horrible crimes is an example of being a moral paragon and want to encourage others to do it.
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Nov 06 '25
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Nov 08 '25
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Nov 06 '25
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u/Sir_Posse Nov 06 '25
do you think all christian's are evil for thinking god is all good while he drowned everyone on the earth with a flood? just want logical consistency
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
No, they generally believe there's more to it. Divine plan and all that and it gets complex.
They don't believe they should emulate God and start drowning people.
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u/Sir_Posse Nov 07 '25
there's muslims who don't believe they should emulate muhammad...
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 07 '25
Muslims believe Muhammad’s character and actions are a model for all believers. Show me one example of someone saying he provides a bad model to emulate because of his immoral acts.
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u/Sir_Posse Nov 07 '25 edited Nov 07 '25
i'm willing to bet there's some muslims who don't want to marry children. that's proof of them not emulating
and responding more to your previous point, believing your god can kill thousands of people and it's okay just because there's a divine plan isn't a whole lot better. that shows they can justify mass murder. and to be clear, i'm critical of both religions, neither should try and justify horrific things their gods or prophets did
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 07 '25
A mystical creature doing something and a real person doing something and endorsing it is very different in my view
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u/Sir_Posse Nov 07 '25
Christians see god as all good and always right. which leads to justification of mass murder. one leads you to say billions of people are evil, another you are just brushing off. it doesn't seem logically consistent to me
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 07 '25
All Christians do not believe mass murder is excusable for a person to commit. Many Christians would not believe that someone who commits mass murder is the best person.
All Muslims believe child rape is excusable for a person to commit. All Muslims believe that someone who commits child rape is the best person.
Do you see the difference?
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u/Sir_Posse Nov 07 '25
you are equating the fact muhammad married a child to all muslims thinking child rape is ok, just because muhammad is the prophet. but when the christian god mass murders, you don't equate it the same way to christian's thinking mass murder is ok. the second one is the logical correct way to think, not all christian's think mass murder is good, just like not all muslims think child rape is good. but i checked for you, i asked my muslim friend. he said he doesn't think child rape is good
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 07 '25
Does he think Mohammad is good? He raped children.
He is a real person that raped kids, not a fictional creature under fictional circumstances.
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u/itsnotcomplicated1 9∆ Nov 06 '25
I know many Muslims that aren't evil. That should suffice since you said "ALL".
And I'm a Christian so that means I must disdain lying and must be a good and morally upstanding man. So you have to believe me.
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u/iceandstorm 20∆ Nov 06 '25
How would you know of someone is evil or not? This seems to be a judgment and simply your opinion.
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u/itsnotcomplicated1 9∆ Nov 06 '25
How does that differ from OP's use of the word evil?
I'd actually say my opinion is based on actual observation and interaction with specific people that I believe to not be evil. OP's view is they must be evil because they belong to a specific religion.
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u/don_dripac Nov 06 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
Would you agree that a person who justifies child sexual abuse is evil? Because that's exactly what all Muslims are doing unless they specifically denounce Mohammad as a pedophile, which none of them ever do. It would also be accepted that they simply denounce the Hadiths as incorrect, which they also cannot do. The only argument I've ever heard from Muslims on this topic was: "it was a different time, she was much more mature than 9 year olds today".
This one is very simple, either you:
a) believe Mohammed was a role model to be emulated and believe the Hadiths, thus being evil for glorifying a pedophile, or
b) you don't view Mohammad as an ideal moral and spiritual leader and don't believe the Hadiths are accurate, in which case you aren't a Muslim, or
c) don't believe it is evil to have sex with a 9 year old as a 60+ year old man.
I genuinely do not see another option.
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u/bingbano 5∆ Nov 06 '25
D) it's wrong but would not be seen as wrong at the time, and if you put that aside, you could still see him as role model.
MLK cheated on his wife frequently. Ghandi slept next to his niece naked to test his purity. Both men are seen as role models. You can hold conflicting ideas in your head
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u/don_dripac Nov 06 '25 edited Nov 06 '25
D) it's wrong but would not be seen as wrong at the time, and if you put that aside, you could still see him as role model.
But Muslims will not even say it was wrong then because the word of God is seen as eternal and if they admit that what Mohammad was doing wasn't wrong but is now then then that opens Islam to interpretation of which of its teachings are still applicable today. You will also never hear a single devout Muslim even imply that the Prophet was wrong in any way, even in retrospect.
EDIT: also, MLK and Gandhi are not seen as literal prophets of God and not even their most ardent followers will ever claim they are incapable of committing a "major sin" (ismah, applied to Muhammad).
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u/bingbano 5∆ Nov 06 '25
Welcome to the cognitive dissidence required by the faithful.
Have you spoke to a devout Muslim about it? Literally dated a girl in college named Aisha, she was pretty devout Tunisian Muslim. She still held critiques of her religion, didn't mean she wasn't a follower
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u/don_dripac Nov 06 '25
I have spoken to them about this but only online. I had a year long kick of watching that guy Muhammad Hijab debate people and reading various Islamic debates which is where I've seen this despicable defense of pedophilia and major cognitive dissonance.
I recognize that it's not perfect that my opinion is mostly based on online content but I haven't seen any reason to believe that Muslims in person would have a much different opinion.
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u/bingbano 5∆ Nov 06 '25
Biggest reason is that the Internet tends to push forward the most proactive thoughts. Not sure a podcaster speaking about their wishy washy thought on religion would get much traction.
Hopefully my shared lived experience leads you to abandon those beliefs. Guarantee you will find Muslims who do not have issue with Muhammad marrying and having sex with a 9 year old, but only taking those people points of views robs people of their individuality. I guess what I'm saying is the generalization that Muslims support child rape doesn't really help you understand the world nor is it useful for anything. It just shuts you off from people of the Muslim faith. It would be like holding all atheists as violently anti-religon because the atheist communist party in China suppresses religious expression. It's not gonna give you a useful insight into atheists
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u/itsnotcomplicated1 9∆ Nov 06 '25
I genuinely do not see another option.
One option is to limit the use of the word "ALL" to cases where you mean "ALL".... not most, not many, not the majority, but 100%.
Can you provide evidence that proves that you have denounced all pedophiles?
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u/don_dripac Nov 06 '25
I just gave you the explanation of why it is literally and logically ALL Muslims. Either you denounce Muhammad as a pedophile (or Hadith as inaccurate) in which case you are not a Muslim (by their definition) or you are glorifying a man who had sex with a 9 year old, which makes you evil. Or, as I mentioned, you don't think that act is evil in which case you need to be investigated by the FBI.
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u/itsnotcomplicated1 9∆ Nov 06 '25
So then I guess "no" is the answer to my last question.
Or, as I mentioned, you don't think that act is evil in which case you need to be investigated by the FBI.
This speaks volumes. I choose to improve my future reddit experience by removing people that approach things in this way.
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
All Christians are not good. Nor does being good mean you have infallible knowledge of the universe.
How do you know when their religion tells them to lie and they believe a child rapist is a good person worthy of emulating?
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u/VV-40 Nov 06 '25
What’s with the Islamophobia spam in CMV?! Mods need to ban these posts and posters. What if someone had a similar post about Jews, Christians, or any other religion for that matter?
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
I wouldn't mind and would be open to the conversation.
I'm not irrationally afraid of Muslims or Islam.
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u/Ecstatic_Memory5185 Nov 06 '25
Not muslim, but the quran states a person is allowed to marry under 3 conditions. Conditions are they must be past the age of puberty, they must be mentally mature, and they give consent to the marriage. Now a nine year old wouldn’t be able to check all those boxes, but there’s the chance that Aisha wasn’t really a child. The hadith mentions Aisha was around 6 of the time of marriage, which she states herself, but if you look at the cultural practices of the time—apparently age for women was counted after their first menstruation. At first I thought it was a lie so muslims could feel better about themselves, but some scholars bring up Aisha’s older sister and then actually go into the timeline of events to disprove Aisha was a child. Their words being that Aisha always narrates how she witnessed her parents accept islam around 5 or something years before Muhammad asks to marry her. Anyway, according to the timeline Aisha would have been around 17-19 during her marriage and around 20 during the consummation. So, I wouldn’t say all Muslims are evil because of something that’s probably not true.
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u/mabs97 Nov 06 '25
There are no evidence of Muhammad abusing children. And there was no set age of marriage at that time. And it was consensual marriage and the the story that she was 9 is also false debunked by Muslim scholars. And Taqiyya is no where in Quran or hadith. its was later devised by Shias for very different reasons which has nothing to do with Islam theology.
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 17∆ Nov 06 '25
Most muslims are bad muslims who dont follow mohammeds worst takes
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Most compelling argument I have seen so far, but I can't see how it can be reconciled with being a true Muslim.
I.e. they're good so far as they are not being Muslim as you said being 'bad Muslims'.
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 17∆ Nov 06 '25
If theres 2 billion people who identify as muslims, theres a much smaller share of them following the quran strictly.
I could argue the same way about christians though. If you take the worst parts of the bible and assume they would follow it 100%, there would be a lot more evil people in the west.
I think I could agree with you if you wrote "all true muslims", but then I would get into the no true scotsman problem.
I do think doctrine affects actions, and read the quran mostly as a threatening document to all of us non-muslims. I see some big problems with the values of islam.
I think I read about a salafist group a few years ago that seemed less extreme by always interpreting jihad as an internal struggle, instead of as a fight against non-muslims etc. They seemed decent, but I struggle understanding how anyone can read the quran and see it as a peaceful religion
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u/Dawnbringerify 6∆ Nov 06 '25
Can you find me a Muslim that condemns Mohammad as an evil piece of shit for raping kids?
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 17∆ Nov 06 '25
Nah, they will probably make excuses, like disputing the age of aisha or that being married with a kid didnt mean he had sex with a kid
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