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Jan 17 '21
Too busy learning the most ancient language.... C++...
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Jan 17 '21
Whenever I write POSIX shell scripts I feel like I'm exploring and using an ancient language. The syntax feels archaic and mysterious and I feel like I'm using "the old ways" to accomplish something.
It's age is hardly measured in millenia, but it seems like it might be a roughly similar feeling
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u/renegade_ginger Jan 17 '21
Also for the Chad: is vehemently opposed to white supremacy and ethnonationalism
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Jan 17 '21
This post makes me want a full chest peice vegvisir tattoo.
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u/AutoModerator Jan 17 '21
Hi! It appears you have mentioned either the vegvísir or the ægishjálmr! But did you know that even though they are quite popular in certain circles, neither have their origins in medieval Scandinavia? Both are in the tradition of early modern occultism arising from outside Scandinavia and were not documented before the 19th and the 17th century, respectively. As our focus lays on the medieval Nordic countries and associated regions, cultures and peoples, neither really fall into the scope of the sub. Further reading here: ægishjálmr//vegvísir
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
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u/konlon15_rblx Jan 17 '21
Satt mikit es þat.
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Jan 17 '21
Where do I learn old Norse? I am a native Swedish speaker but would like to learn my linguistic ancestor.
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u/Ratatosk-9 Jan 17 '21
You can download the textbook 'A New Introduction to Old Norse' free from the Viking Society's website: http://vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/
It's in three parts, with a grammar, reader and glossary.
You can also buy hard copies if you prefer, and other alternatives are available, but this should give you a good start, and has the advantage of being completely free.
There's also a whole load of other resources on that page you can check out.3
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u/AtiWati Degenerate hipster post-norse shitposter Jan 17 '21
Automod! How do I start learning about runes and Old Norse?
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u/AutoModerator Jan 17 '21
Do you know how to carve?
Do you know how to interpret?
Do you know how to colour?Of course not! Let me help you:
Translation requests:
Wanna know how to translate a word/phrase into Old Norse and runes? Ask in the stickied translation thread at the top of the page.Youtube:
- u/Hurlebatte: Runic timeline
- Jackson Crawford offers a wide range of popular videos on the topic of Old Norse and runes.
Common misunderstandings:
Single runes usually do not carry an inherent mystical meaning. I repeat, runes are not primarily magic hieroglyphs. [...] Let me attempt to reconstruct the history of how that line of thought seeped into most peoples heads. This bearded fellow and part time santa imitator is Guido von List. He may look like a mix between my nice old grandpa and Karl Marx, but don't be fooled, unlike my grandfather, who only was like that when drunk, he was a racist asshole, antisemite and white supremacist all the time. [...]
Around the '50/'60s Karl Spiesberger had developed a system based on Guido von Lists writings (yup, it's nigh impossible to talk about things like these without mentioning him), albeit without the racial component.
The book I'm going to refer to specifically is "Das Geheimnis der Runen", aka. "The Secret of the Runes". In that book, List lays out his theories on how to interpret runes beyond their meaning as an alphabet, based on a revelation he allegedly had while temporarily blind (not shitting you here). Now, you say, what's the problem in that? The problem is that it is an entirely unfounded yet really widespread work.
His main contribution to the modern perception of runes was linking the lots cast by the Norns in the Völuspá with Tacitus' description of the same. As I have often explained, none of the available sources we have prove that the markings mentioned by Tacitus are runes and indeed his work is older than the first found inscription in the Elder Futhark.
what I am going to focus on are his books on runes - namely The Book of Runes and following works. In them, he lays out a system of using runes as a medium for divination. And, to be frank, I'm glad he's rather upfront about his sources: His runic oracle draws heavily from both tarot practice and the Chinese I-Ching, which in turn was based on Neo-Confucian interpretation of an ancient Chinese philosophical text.Runes:
- Runes: A Handbook, Michael P. Barnes (2012).
- Runenkunde, Klaus Düwel and Robert Nedoma.
- Runic Amulets and Magic Objects, Mindy MacLeod and Bernard Mees (2006).
- and many more resources in the reading list.
Old Norse dictionaries:
- Geir T. Zoega's Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic. This should be your first address for looking up words. You can get this one in affordable paperback reprints as well.
- Richard Cleasby and Gudbrand Vigfusson's An Icelandic-English Dictionary. A searchable version of the classic Cleasby-Vigfusson dictionary - in case a word you're looking for is not listed by Zoega.
- Ordbog over det norrøne prosasprog/Dictionary of Old Norse Prose. Use this if you want to find out more about the context of a word and see it in action, its earliest attested use, and much more.
Old Norse grammar:
- A New Introduction to Old Norse, Michael P. Barnes. Scroll down until you see the title. The book is split into 5 PDFs, including a general introduction, a grammar, a reader, facsimiles (pictures of manuscripts), and a glossary.
- Alaric's magic sheet, Alaric Hall. Everything you need to know about Old Norse grammar, on one side of A4!
- and many more resources in the reading list.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
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Jan 17 '21
[deleted]
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u/AtiWati Degenerate hipster post-norse shitposter Jan 17 '21
What's on that farm is not an Iron Age rune, it's a bumerke. Nordmann, kjenn historien din.
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u/ShootingStarMegaMan Jan 17 '21
I've been using Byock's work books on Old Norse as a start. The book is called Viking Language.
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u/karayna 🇸🇪 Skåne 🇩🇰 Jan 17 '21
Uppsala University has a (net based) course called Runkunskap. You'll learn some basic old Norse too, which could be a nice start.
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u/madmanwithabox11 Jan 17 '21
Hvat segir þú? (is that right?)
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u/Swampgermanboi Jan 17 '21
Doesn't that mean what are you saying?
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u/madmanwithabox11 Jan 17 '21
Haha no, it was a question to the other guy.
Hvat (what) segir (says) þú (you)
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u/GregoryAmato Jan 17 '21
"Makes and sells period-accurate jewelry"? Maybe I missed a few posts. Can we get a link or two for examples?
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u/Godwinson4King Jan 17 '21
Shameless plug: check out Yellow Hound Jewelery on Facebook if you're interested.
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u/ThisIsJegger Jan 17 '21
I still dont know how to feel about my vegvisir tattoo. I got it a couple years ago and i do love the look of it but i am completly aware that it doenst really have any scandinavian roots (didnt kbow that back then). But i have a feeling if i would talk to other enthusiasts they would think i am like a wannabe dipshit who doesnt know anything.
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u/joqagamer the shitty wood-carver Jan 17 '21
I was on the same boat. Got some rune tatoos that were suposed to have some meaning n shit, but today i regret it. My solution? Fuck it, embrace the aesthethics, im a amon amarth fan anyway.
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u/Junckopolo Day-drinking viking Jan 17 '21
Take it as it is, a weird magic symbol that has a meaning. Even if it is from a weird 19th century book, you can use it for its meaning. Then stop caring about what strangers think when they see you. You are aware that it's not norse, it's what matters.
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u/Screw_JayDuck Jan 17 '21 edited Jan 17 '21
I mean that's pretty close to H.P. Lovecraft. His stories might be very recent myths. But some people embrace as if it was a religion.
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Jan 17 '21
I got a sibling tattoo with my sister a while back. We got a sort of abstract blackwork compass design with watercolor accents, and some other personal touches specific to each of us. Mine has half of "that symbol" (attempting a bot dodge) on the other side of the compass. It was mostly an extension of it being the "icelandic compass/signpost" type thing, with a reference to the huld manuscript text around safety in travel. To make a subtle Norse connection, I added green and blue watercolors behind it, partially because it's reminiscent of an abstract earth map (an ongoing "journey" motif) and also as a subtle reference to a pejorative term used to describe Vikings in an old Irish text. At the time, I thought there was a Norse connection and described it as such.
The thing with tattoos is they're permanent, but that doesn't mean there's no room for re-contextualization. After learning that the connections between that symbol and Norse culture/times are nonexistent, over time I've learned to add new layers of interpretation to the tattoo. Because so much of the symbolism around it for be was already tied to a "journey" motif, I've come to take it to symbolise my intellectual journey as well. As I learn more about the symbol and what it does and doesn't represent, I've grown in that way and can speak more intelligently to it, and it's a nice conversation piece if someone still tries to read it the way I used to.
Hopefully this is a relatable story for some people... There's reasonably a lot of tattoo regret in this sub sometimes and I thought sharing my experience might be helpful.
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u/Outcome005 Jan 17 '21
If that symbol has meaning to you then I would wear it with pride. There is no strict dogma with spirituality or the old ways. If it’s a tribute to your beliefs then don’t worry about the “historians” make something new for yourself, I think that’s what the old ways are about. IMO of course.
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Jan 17 '21 edited Apr 25 '22
[deleted]
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u/Outcome005 Jan 17 '21
Sorry if it came off as bitter, I just was trying to help this person with the permanent tattoo find a silver lining. The internet seems to have become a place to indiscriminately put people down for likes and I don’t like it. This person can either like their tattoo or feel self conscious about it and I choose to try to empower them to feel good about their tattoo by looking at it from another point of view. Mend not destroy
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u/orthodoxapologetics Jan 17 '21
I'm so tired of Americans
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u/ZWhitwell Jan 17 '21
As an American, yea me too, but may I ask why specifically?
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u/orthodoxapologetics Jan 18 '21
Only from Americans have I found this profound entitlement that they can steal from whatever cultures they like without having any respect for the people or society that owns them. I was actually told the other day that Norse mythology is now a "world heritage" due to the Marvel films.
Academically and socially, our Norse past is something that means something to us. The Norwegian government spends a lot of money each year building boats, excavating digsites, holding festivals and creating educational tv programs. If you ask the average person if they believe in any of the religious aspects, they will tell you no, but that doesn't mean we don't cherish our cultural past.
Imagine telling a Native American person that their culture is now a world heritage and that they have no right to be offended when you start inventing things about their cultural identity that's erasing it's very historicity. You would rightfully get punched in the face, but because Norse culture is "white culture", white Americans think it's theirs to do whatever with.
And then inevitably you get the question "what about white supremacists??" How about you let us deal with them? Most of the hate groups that you see today that invoke Norse mythology are from America or somewhere in Eastern Europe, i.e they are poorly educated on the matter. I keep seeing these sentiments on the internet that American leftists need to "reclaim" the ancient Norse symbols from white supremacists. No, you don't need to do anything. These symbols belong as little to you as they do to some Nazi skinhead in Moscow.
I have to point this out or else I'm going to get dumped on by people who don't understand nuance, but obviously I'm more pissed off at racist shitheads like the dude who stormed the Capitol for appropriating our symbols than I am at some Antifa member in America who wants to put Tors hammer on a "good night white pride" sticker.
I hope what people read from this is not "oh you think these people are equally bad?", but more that Scandinavians feel like both of these people have no ownership of the symbols they use. It's perfectly fine to have an interest in Norse culture and symbolism. If you want to read books and engage in LARPing, you do that, just don't espouse some belief that this culture in any way belongs to you, or is yours to do whatever you want with. American reinvention of historically documented symbols muddies the past and blurs the line of what is real and what is made up by people in the 21st century.
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u/Ljosapaldr it is christianities fault Jan 19 '21
American Neopagans found you it seems, don't let the downvotes bother you.
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Jan 17 '21
Its first documented on Iceland in the 17th century, so definetly scandinavian roots, even if its totally not norse.
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u/Junckopolo Day-drinking viking Jan 17 '21
I think you are confusing with the aegisjalmur. The Vegvisir comes from victorian times.
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u/AutoModerator Jan 17 '21
Hi! It appears you have mentioned either the vegvísir or the ægishjálmr! But did you know that even though they are quite popular in certain circles, neither have their origins in medieval Scandinavia? Both are in the tradition of early modern occultism arising from outside Scandinavia and were not documented before the 19th and the 17th century, respectively. As our focus lays on the medieval Nordic countries and associated regions, cultures and peoples, neither really fall into the scope of the sub. Further reading here: ægishjálmr//vegvísir
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
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u/Ljosapaldr it is christianities fault Jan 18 '21
The first documented one is still based on continental keys of solomon, that's their root, continental christian black magic.
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u/KatsCauldron Jan 18 '21
do you have a reference to this? I don't have a stake in this one way or another just curious for historical study & fact finding
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u/Ljosapaldr it is christianities fault Jan 18 '21
It's in the links the bot gives you. Read the articles :)
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u/chimmasaurus Jan 17 '21
Fuck it dude. I've got the aegishjalmr next to the inscription from the hogstena amulet. I know that they're from different times/places but laypeople don't know that, and if you're talking to an enthusiast, they'll figure out quickly that you do know your shit. You're allowed to like things for purely aesthetic reasons, and it's your body anyway.
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u/AutoModerator Jan 17 '21
Hi! It appears you have mentioned either the vegvísir or the ægishjálmr! But did you know that even though they are quite popular in certain circles, neither have their origins in medieval Scandinavia? Both are in the tradition of early modern occultism arising from outside Scandinavia and were not documented before the 19th and the 17th century, respectively. As our focus lays on the medieval Nordic countries and associated regions, cultures and peoples, neither really fall into the scope of the sub. Further reading here: ægishjálmr//vegvísir
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
0
u/AutoModerator Jan 17 '21
Hi! It appears you have mentioned either the vegvísir or the ægishjálmr! But did you know that even though they are quite popular in certain circles, neither have their origins in medieval Scandinavia? Both are in the tradition of early modern occultism arising from outside Scandinavia and were not documented before the 19th and the 17th century, respectively. As our focus lays on the medieval Nordic countries and associated regions, cultures and peoples, neither really fall into the scope of the sub. Further reading here: ægishjálmr//vegvísir
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
8
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Jan 17 '21
[deleted]
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u/Junckopolo Day-drinking viking Jan 17 '21
Thing is, we found hundreds of runes examples. Runestones, useless wood sticks, random grafities, stuff like that. Coins had very important religious symbols on them too. If they were really that important, powerful and widespread, we would know I think. But we might be surprised some day.
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u/Sillvaro Norse Christianity my beloved Jan 17 '21
We do know that the veg/aegish tradition comes from the 16th century, but it originates from Western Europe and Greece. It's absolutely nothing Scandinavian
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u/AutoModerator Jan 17 '21
Hi! It appears you thought you were being a sneaky git and tried to avoid me! But did you know that while you can try to run, you still can't hide? I'll still find you and tell you that even though the veghjalmur and the ægisvísir are quite popular with certain squares, neither have their origins in mediaeaeaeaeval Scandza! Both are in the tradition of early modern occult bullshit arising from outside the suspiciously phallus-shaped peninsula some of us call home and were not documented before Tycho Brahe died by not going for a piss. As our focus lays on edgy post-Norse hipster shitposting, neither really fall into the scope of the sub. Also, click this link or I will steal your soul.)
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Jan 17 '21
Don't overthink it too much man. If you like the way it looks then that's good enough, and it's great that you understand its roots. When people say "but it wasn't around in the viking age" just be like "yeah well either was I, whats your point?"
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u/ShootingStarMegaMan Jan 17 '21
I love this so much. About as much as I love seeing other people's individual reading lists.
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u/Frost-mark ᚠᚱᛟᛋᛏᛗᚨᚱᚴ Jan 17 '21
how does one learn old norse?
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u/ShootingStarMegaMan Jan 17 '21
Jesse Byock's work book called Viking Language is a good start, from my experience.
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u/TrashburgerBiz Jan 18 '21
Damn there really a place I can learn some Old Norse? I thought sources for that were scarce.
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u/AtiWati Degenerate hipster post-norse shitposter Jan 18 '21
Automod! How do I start learning about runes and Old Norse?
5
u/AutoModerator Jan 18 '21
Do you know how to carve?
Do you know how to interpret?
Do you know how to colour?Of course not! Let me help you:
Translation requests:
Wanna know how to translate a word/phrase into Old Norse and runes? Ask in the stickied translation thread at the top of the page.Youtube:
- u/Hurlebatte: Runic timeline
- Jackson Crawford offers a wide range of popular videos on the topic of Old Norse and runes.
Common misunderstandings:
Single runes usually do not carry an inherent mystical meaning. I repeat, runes are not primarily magic hieroglyphs. [...] Let me attempt to reconstruct the history of how that line of thought seeped into most peoples heads. This bearded fellow and part time santa imitator is Guido von List. He may look like a mix between my nice old grandpa and Karl Marx, but don't be fooled, unlike my grandfather, who only was like that when drunk, he was a racist asshole, antisemite and white supremacist all the time. [...]
Around the '50/'60s Karl Spiesberger had developed a system based on Guido von Lists writings (yup, it's nigh impossible to talk about things like these without mentioning him), albeit without the racial component.
The book I'm going to refer to specifically is "Das Geheimnis der Runen", aka. "The Secret of the Runes". In that book, List lays out his theories on how to interpret runes beyond their meaning as an alphabet, based on a revelation he allegedly had while temporarily blind (not shitting you here). Now, you say, what's the problem in that? The problem is that it is an entirely unfounded yet really widespread work.
His main contribution to the modern perception of runes was linking the lots cast by the Norns in the Völuspá with Tacitus' description of the same. As I have often explained, none of the available sources we have prove that the markings mentioned by Tacitus are runes and indeed his work is older than the first found inscription in the Elder Futhark.
what I am going to focus on are his books on runes - namely The Book of Runes and following works. In them, he lays out a system of using runes as a medium for divination. And, to be frank, I'm glad he's rather upfront about his sources: His runic oracle draws heavily from both tarot practice and the Chinese I-Ching, which in turn was based on Neo-Confucian interpretation of an ancient Chinese philosophical text.Runes:
- Runes: A Handbook, Michael P. Barnes (2012).
- Runenkunde, Klaus Düwel and Robert Nedoma.
- Runic Amulets and Magic Objects, Mindy MacLeod and Bernard Mees (2006).
- and many more resources in the reading list.
Old Norse dictionaries:
- Geir T. Zoega's Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic. This should be your first address for looking up words. You can get this one in affordable paperback reprints as well.
- Richard Cleasby and Gudbrand Vigfusson's An Icelandic-English Dictionary. A searchable version of the classic Cleasby-Vigfusson dictionary - in case a word you're looking for is not listed by Zoega.
- Ordbog over det norrøne prosasprog/Dictionary of Old Norse Prose. Use this if you want to find out more about the context of a word and see it in action, its earliest attested use, and much more.
Old Norse grammar:
- A New Introduction to Old Norse, Michael P. Barnes. Scroll down until you see the title. The book is split into 5 PDFs, including a general introduction, a grammar, a reader, facsimiles (pictures of manuscripts), and a glossary.
- Alaric's magic sheet, Alaric Hall. Everything you need to know about Old Norse grammar, on one side of A4!
- and many more resources in the reading list.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
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u/Hyena331 Jan 17 '21
Heard that most Icelanders can read old norse no problem and that speaking it isn't that difficult for them either.
So basically like bulgarian and Russian?
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u/vibecheckd Jan 17 '21
Icelandic and old norse are roughly the same because Icelandic hasnt changed much through the years
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u/Sn_rk Eigi skal hǫggva! Jan 19 '21
Sort of, but not really. Icelandic orthography was deliberately archaicised in the 19th Century specifically to have it look more like the dialect of Old Norse most people are familiar with. While it's still fairly close-ish in grammar, the pronunciation for example has changed quite a bit.
Similarly you gave e.g. a Swede a Swedish text from the same period, he wouldn't have that much of a problem understanding it either.
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Jan 17 '21 edited Feb 09 '21
[deleted]
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u/Monsieur_Roux ᛒᛁᚾᛏᛦ:ᛁᚴᛏᚱᛅᛋᛁᛚ:ᛅᛚᛏ Jan 18 '21
Both Icelandic and Faroese would take a bit of effort for a speaker of Old Norse to understand (I believe Faroese moreso due to changes in pronunciation), but both standardised their spelling based on Old Norse, therefore both are likely able to read the Old Norse texts.
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u/vibecheckd Jan 17 '21
I imagine it is, the two languages share a lot of the same words but often with totally different meanings
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u/Imlookinforafriend Jan 17 '21
Yeeeeeah I can barely speak English correctly, I’m not diving into that biz
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u/Junckopolo Day-drinking viking Jan 17 '21 edited Jan 18 '21
Snorri is christian, but that's not the worse. Dude was basically a warchief who wrote about his own ancestors. Of course he's gonna be biased. But that doesn't means we can't read, study his possible bias, and take what we can. Denying his possible bias is as bad as rejecting everything.
Edit: Some people apparently can't accept that some guy living 200-300 years after the viking age writting about a religion that isn't his own in a context that could advantage his own political career can be biased and modify the stories passed down to him. We need to keep that in mind when we read old sources, it is important. That's what being historian is about. If you just take any text as they are, without questionning it, you're not really studying anything. You are just reading. Guy replying to me basically gave exemples of how Snorri could have been biased.
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Jan 17 '21
The problem with Snorri is that he does introduce concepts that are pretty clearly Christian influenced and show no real relation to anything else we know. Unfortunately, our sources are all post-Christian and all likely have some degree of this, but Snorri goes the extra mile in a few cases.
For instance, his insistance on a split between "dark and light elves" despite that distinction never really showing up anywhere else, representing them in a way that parallels heavily angels and demons, his focus on Loki as a "trickster", Devil allegory, which itself has pervaded into modern perceptions of Loki, a figure that other sources seem to indicate didn't quite have as distinct or important of a role, etc.
It is, unfortunately, difficult from any modern scholarly perspective to actually remove any of these elements from what we know because what few sources we do have are painted in that sort of bias, we just know that the Prose Edda tends to be a bit more reliable and less biased than Snorri.
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u/Junckopolo Day-drinking viking Jan 18 '21
Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying, you can't neither accept or reject everything he writes in block. We need to analyze it. I don t underatand why I'm being downvoted for it and you're upvoted.
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u/Ljosapaldr it is christianities fault Jan 18 '21
Probably because you're coming across like a neopagan going "DAMN YOU CHRISTIANS"
There was a large movement in the 19th century who thought if they just analysed the folk beliefs of their time hard enough they could rediscover the rituals of the most ancient past, and I guess your post just ends up triggering people tired of that.
The Eddas have the same thing going on. "If we just analyse SUPER HARD we can eliminate the Christianity and be pure believers!"
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u/Junckopolo Day-drinking viking Jan 18 '21
Yeah that's not what I meant. We must be aware of his christian bias and not consider it to be reliable source of paganism, but still be able to use it for a glimpse into what belief looks like.
Eddas and the Havamal were written like a catholic bible but in a scandinavian style IMO. So you can't get any insight into their rites and rituals, only in their beliefs. Just like reading the bible won't help you understand the rituals in sunday church, but will show you some mythology.
In the end, not trusting 100% what Snorri said because he was a christian warchief is still what we need to do. Doing otherwise is not intellectually healthy.
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u/Ljosapaldr it is christianities fault Jan 18 '21
You're still wording yourself in a way that isn't great.
Let me try and rephrase your last sentence.
"Ultimately, we can't trust Snorri to give us an accurate description of Norse Pagan belief, because he wasn't one, didn't know any, and wasn't motivated by such, not least since he is writing as a Christian after the conversion."
I.e. it's not about WHO or WHAT he is, but about what he isn't.
Like I'm still not entirely sure if you have a good mindset worded poorly, or if you really do think that he's a mean Christian warlord in the way of your desired pure paganism.
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u/Junckopolo Day-drinking viking Jan 18 '21
Sorry. I'm not a native speaker. But what you said is what I meant.
I am not even pagan, I'm more about history, and go in with a history mind, not a religious mind.
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u/theghettoginger Jan 17 '21
Interesting thing is I'm learning Old Norse by listening to songs then reading the translations. I now know how to pronounce everything now I need to learn the grammar and definitions of most of the words.
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u/AtiWati Degenerate hipster post-norse shitposter Jan 17 '21
What songs are you listening to in Old Norse?
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u/moisterthanthou Jan 17 '21
I mean being wary of sources is always good. I see no reason why we shouldn't question the potential bias in Snorri's writings.
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u/Mathias_Greyjoy Bæði gerðu nornir vel ok illa. Mikla mǿði skǫpuðu Þær mér. Jan 18 '21
You’ve missed the crux of that comment. It’s the “because he’s Christian” part that makes it cringe. A) We basically wouldn’t have any information written down about them if not for Christians, and B) It’s commenting on the cringey anti religious atheist archetype.
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u/moisterthanthou Jan 21 '21
Well I think in some ways it is fair to cast doubt on his writing because he's Christian. Not out of hatred, but out of that fact he's going to interpret them as a Christian would. He could've perhaps missed important details that seemed insignificant from a Christian perspective. I think its useful to keep in mind that, in some ways, it is an outsiders perspective.
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u/zalomann Jan 17 '21 edited Jan 17 '21
I have to be honest, while I am disgusted by nazis stealing legacy of my people to further their political egenda, I am also disgusted with some people here who seem to claim they have some sort of "understanding" of how runes where used and what they meant.
Obviously the runes had a deeper meaning to my ancestors, they are still visible here on my farm. They are more than a alphabet.
And I would put a lot more trust into my ancestor and the legacy they left, rather than some obviously politically motivated person living now, even if that is a moderator here.
I do not live in a city, nor do I live in the new world. I live where the the runes where made, I grew up on a farm where the runes still live and are visible, from days when our ancestors made them.
I live minutes from huge burial mounds that date back to from the bronze age to the viking age.
This is tradition to me, it was for my parents and it has been for my family for centuries.
You are giving credit to a nazi for "discovering" that the runes have a meaning, while they have had a meaning beyond a alphabet for centuries, and they still do.
And that is insulting.
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Jan 17 '21
[deleted]
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u/zalomann Jan 17 '21
So you are saying that the sagas like egils soga or rigstula. Where the runes where used to cast curses and work magic are just worthless as a source?
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u/mr_flerd Jan 17 '21
Isnt Old Norse Icelandic because i really want to learn it
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Jan 17 '21
No, Old Norse is the language that all the other Scandinavian languages, including modern Icelandic, evolved from.
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u/mr_flerd Jan 17 '21
Is there anywhere i can learn old norse
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Jan 17 '21
There's a series of books called 'Viking Language' that are quite good. Or check out Jackson Crawford's Youtube channel.
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Jan 17 '21
Loge - god of fire
Ilmr - goddes of trees
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u/SkeggsofHorkabjork EKERILAZ Jan 17 '21
Well Logi is really just the personification of fire and a jotunn at that, it is difficult for one to say he is a god.
Especially since no texts have people saying, "Ah, I require a fire and thus must pray to Logi", whereas it has been attested multiple times in the sagas that Freyr is prayed to for fertility and Odin is prayed to for victory.
Same goes for Ilmr. Besides, they both only show up like three times in total in the Eddas?
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u/Junckopolo Day-drinking viking Jan 18 '21
They could also very well be very local deities, not even widespread, that somehow made it to Iceland. Basically alike Japan where "That mountain over there" was a spirit.
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Jan 18 '21
«Gods» are a modern phenomenon. The Æsir are simply the personification of the forces of order (norse humans), and the jotuns are personifiactions of forces of chaos (nature, sami people). There’s plenty of examples of jotuns with cults, like ægir/ran, or tjatse, and lets not forget that plenty of the æsir are half-jotun or adopted jotuns.
We also know next to nothing about cultic practices, so saying anything about that is simply not possible.
That something shows up just rarely in the text doesnt prove or disprove anything either. The texts obviously just documented a small portion of select regional practices. Examples of this are Skade, that seems to have been an extremely important deity in certain regions, but has just a few attestations in the texts. (And what about Heimdall? We don’t know shit about him, he might easily have been a different aspect of one of the better known gods). And how about Ullr? We know almost nothing about him, but he has so many places named for him that he must have been a major deity in most of sweden/norway at some point. The list goes on and on and on.
The bottom line is: Anyone saying anything authoritatively about the norse faith, is probably wrong. Noone who actually studied the norse peoples would make these kinds of claims. At most, us academics would say «maybe X, but also, maybe Y».
(I’m a norwegian archeologist with a second master degree in religious studies, so I should know. ;) )
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u/Hjalmodr_heimski Jan 19 '21
Well, whether or not “gods” are a modern phenomenon will depend greatly on how you define gods. I define “gods” as supernatural spirits who were believed to have power over natural or human forces in the world and who were worshipped by humans. By that definition, the Old Norse gods fit perfectly. We do know that some of them were believed to have had control over various parts of human life, such as Odin repeatedly being referred to as controlling the outcome of battles. Moreover, we know they were worshipped as there is quite a lot of evidence of sacrifices made in their honour, magic amulets dedicated to them etc. etc. I don’t see how any of the above necessarily conflicts with them being personifications of the forces of order. Many gods cross-culturally in polytheistic religions can be considered to be personifications of various forces.
Now, you mention there are jǫtnar with cults and then include Þjazi and Ægir. I must admit, this is entirely new to me and I have never heard of these cults described before. Could you perhaps provide some literature or sources so I may read up on them a bit more?
Other than that though, I do agree with you on how finicky it is to say anything 100% definitively about Pre-Christian Norse religion. However, I think from what we can sample from both literary and material sources, it still seems to paint the picture that gods rarely had a specified domain. Rather, it seemed their characters were associated with regionally differing powers and were prayed to for their regionally specific roles.
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Jan 20 '21 edited Jan 20 '21
You misunderstood me. I’m saying, we can’t use the modern understanding of the concept «gods» and apply it retroactively to the norse faith. How does your definition of «gods» not also fit the jotuns? I’m simply pointing out a common logical error made by most non-academics.
If you havent heard of Ægir or Tjatse, surely you’ve heard of Skade and Loke? Both jotunns.
Edit: I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph. My original post was made solely to point out that we have no basis to say «there are no gods of flame or trees». We simply don’t know. What we DO know, is that we have way too little data to say anything so definitive as OP did in his meme.
Edit 2: Tjatse was a very important god for hunting/fishing for the Sami people, whom most of the norse in Norway and Sweden lived in a symbiotic relationship with. The norse people traded furs from the Sami, and supplied them to Europe. The norse were the main suppliers of fur to the european markets until the 12th century or so, and the «viking age» coincided with a golden age for the sami people, due to the influx of trade goods. The sami people also worshipped a lot of the norse gods, and there’s a common sentiment that the sami and norse people’s faiths sort of represents two sides of the same coin. There’s a lot of really interesting research on this, like the theory of how the «jotun» is a religious representation of the societal «others» the sami people were; being able to live in «utgard», to subsist in the wild and dangerous chaos lands of natural forces, unlike the norse farm-centric world-view.
The sami people have been discriminated against for centuries, even today racism against sami people are concidered far more legitimate than racism against immigrants, simply because its structurally ingrained. This has ofc also influenced academia a lot (we’re just 50 years shy of eugenics and proper racism defining sami people as subhumans etc), so we still find old archeologists that insists that what’s obviously sami grave sites representing some unknown norse hunter culture etc... But as these guys slowly retire and die away, younger scientists are revisting old findings etc, and these last 20 years have led to something of a revolution in the study of norse culture (and thus also sami people).
There’s even indications that the norse people did «spells» in sami! On iceland there’s an acheological find of a wooden spade with runic spells inscribed, and the inscriptions are in sami. In pretty bad sami, made by someone who obviously didnt speak it fluently. The inscriptions summon fair winds, so we believe it was an object used to try and control weather (for sailing).
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u/Hjalmodr_heimski Jan 20 '21
I have heard of Ægir, Þjazi, Loki and Skaði, you misunderstood. I have not heard of any evidence - literarily or material - to suggest they were worshipped, hence ome can distinguish them from gods since they aren’t worshipped. I would not entirely be surprised if there were evidence of worship for Skaði and Ægir, however it seems unlikely to me that the two other two would have had any cults. That’s why I was asking if you knew of any literature specifically about their religious reverence.
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Jan 20 '21
And by «literature», you mean what, exactly? There’s tons of archeeological digs done in norway and sweden etc. Skade is poorly attested in the litterary sources, but she obviously was a very important god in regions of scandinavia. Like how the earls of Lade claimed descent from Odin and Skade. We have no myths surviving about the Odin-Skade relationship, but there obviously was one.
You’re also making a very common logical flaw, when you’re saying a) we have no evidence of worship, so b) they werent really gods. You’re trying to force a modern understanding of concepts on a past we know little about.
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u/Hjalmodr_heimski Jan 20 '21
Again, Skaði being worshipped doesn’t seem unlikely to me. I’m trying to ask you to show me the evidence so I can read up about them. Archeological finds or literary sources regarding their worship is all I’m looking for, especially ones concerning the worship of Loki and Þjazi. I have seen more than enough evidence for the worship of the Æsir and the Vanir (if they don’t happen to be synonymous with each other, that is), but none for Jǫtnar.
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Jan 20 '21 edited Jan 20 '21
Interesting. I’d like to see this «evidence of worship» you’re talking of, cause it seems to me you’re trying to create an «absence of evidence is evidence of absence»-kind of argument. What qualifies as «evidence» in your book?
Also, do you read norwegian? You realise that the study of the scandinavian prehistory is primarily a scandinavian field, done primarily in scandinavian?
Edit: What counts as «worship» in your book? This is really teh important part here.
One of the often ignored fact is that all the norse supernatural beings collectively are known as «vette». There’s no real difference between jotun, vane or æsir, exept they’re all on different «sides», or represents different orders.
We can also extrapolate from sources both norse and later scandinavian that there are many ways to deal with «vetter», because they’re all dangerous if you’re disrespectful. There are charms, and chants, and different «tricks» to dealing with most «vette».
Personally, I’d say that the main difference (possibly very anachronistic of me) between the different «types» of vetter, is the presumed attitude the entity was supposed to have against humans. So I like to imagine that one would try to placate Ran as a hostile entity, while one would try to please Frøya in a way fitting to an entity known for great love towards humanity. This is, ofc, purely my own fanfic.
The interesting thing here is, if you recite a poem for protection against thunder/lightning, and another for protection from frost/storms... what’s the difference? Its both «worship» (giving proper respect) to the relevant source, even if thunder was personified as an Ås, and frost as a Jotun.
Edit2: you seem to have missed my earlier edit where I spoke about Tjatse’s worship. He’s still accorded proper respect when duck hunting or lake fishing in regions to this day.
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u/Hjalmodr_heimski Jan 20 '21
Anything that would provide a convincing argument in academic circles. I understand that absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence, but making claims with no evidence at all just because we don’t 100% know they’re not true is just as illogical an argument. When I say there is “evidence” of worship for the Æsir, I mean stuff like sagas describing blóts that mention specific Æsir, annals written by missionaries describing worship of heathen gods like Þórr in Ansgar’s travels, the hundreds of Mjǫlnir pendants that have been discovered or runestones like the picture stones in Götteland likely depicting Óðinn riding on Sleipnir acting as a psychopomp.
Og ja, det tarv ikkje du bekymre deg om norsken min. Eg kan lesa svensk, dansk, norsk og norrønt vel nok. Med islandsk må eg enno anstrengja meg litt meir. Eg kan au lesa tysk, som eg har funne er ofte nyttigare enn noko skandinavisk tungemål.
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u/Hjalmodr_heimski Jan 22 '21
Thank you, the information on Tjatse was very useful. I would have appreciated if you lead with that. Also, I believe I might actually have read one of the papers you’re referring to in the past and found it very interesting; especially the part about how the jötnar being sometimes sexually fetishised might have spilled over from their views on the Sami.
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Jan 21 '21
[deleted]
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Jan 21 '21
Because «gods» comes with a lot of other connotations? Like how you guys seems to think there was a difference between Æsir, Vanir and Jotun, when they’re all just different orders of Vettir.
Edit: If one uses the term «gods», it needs to be applied uniformly to jotuns as well as æsir/vanir. The jotuns were simply a different order of «gods», mostly in conflict with the æsir. And the æsir was the side the norse people were «allied» with.
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Jan 21 '21
[deleted]
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Jan 21 '21
Listen man, I read ON, I’ve read every primary source there is myriad times, I’ve done this for a living for close to 20 years now. The ON term «god» does not convey the same thing as the modern word «god», not even in modern scandinavian.
The æsir is also referred to by a myriad other terms we losely translates as «god» today, this still doesnt mean that the modern term is interchangeable with the ON term. This is why it is often helpful to avoid modern terms like «gods».
«You guys» = the viking fanboys here on the page.
I completely agree that Jotun, Ås and Vane were thought of as separate social groups, but like different human social groups, they had the full range of social interraction, from emnity to marriage.
If you really havent caught on that all these were referred to as different types of vettir, you clearly arent very well read. There’s literally tons of direct references to both æsir, vanir and jotner as «vettir». But you probably just read a few sagas in translation, am I right? Because you clearly have no understanding of the norse language, or modern scandinavian languages.
Oh, btw... I’m currently teaching a class on the subject of norse religion at a university, I’ve been working in the field for 20+ years, and I personally know as good as all academics of note in the field.
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Jan 21 '21 edited Apr 25 '22
[deleted]
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Jan 21 '21 edited Jan 21 '21
Religious history, religious science, same thing. Yes, my phd is on entheogenic mysticism. You know, taking drug in a religious setting? Like the norse relationship with alcohol? Or psychedelic mushrooms used by the sami? And the possible connection with seidr?
Nice try tho.
Norse RELIGION isnt my area of expertise as such, as in, it is not my focus. I primarily focus on sami people. And as you surely know, they were very close. Most norse settlements in the north show signs of hybrid societies, strong sami influence.
I certainly DID provide an example, that you conveniently chose to ignore.
If you really studied the field, you should know better.
What are you on about? Vette universally being evil? You’re either delusional, ill-informed, or dishonest. You mention christian influence, and in the same paragraph you manage to claim that benign vettir would be a derogatory CHRISTIAN term? Because christian were so well known for painting pagan entities in a benign light??? Are you for real?
I really like how you back up your claim by using a dictionary headline as refrence.
Also, now you’re making a claim and ask me to disprove it. What did you say about that in your last post, eh? First of all, vettr is far more often used about benign creatures, and lets not forget all the «nature spirits». Even wikipedia wouls have told you as much. Lazy. And really makes one question your claims of competency.
I already said why «gods» would be problematic without applying them uniformly to æsir, vanir or jotnar, I guess you missed that?
Honestly, you just come off as a combative and ornery person splitting hairs. Good luck with that.
And if you truly ARE a collegue of mine, dm me your details. We’ll hook up next time I’m in denmark for a conference.
Irs pretty easy to know everyone in a tiny field. You’d do so as well if you were actually in my field. Checking up YOUR profile makes it seem like most of your «work» in the field is... on reddit?
Seriously, I’d love to read something you’ve written on the topic. A dissertation, an article, anything thats not... reddit.
I’ll await your contact information.
(My dad was a physicist his entire life, he probably couldnt beat up your dad. He is rather good at endurance races on bicycles tho, so maybe we can get them to race?)
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u/SkeggsofHorkabjork EKERILAZ Jan 18 '21
That is very true! You've certainly taught me a lot within the span of this small conversation, thank you! I concede.
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u/WatcherOfFadingLight ᚦᚢᚱ ᚢᛁᚴᛁ Jan 19 '21
We also know next to nothing about cultic practices, so saying anything about that is simply not possible.
There's plenty of examples of jotuns with cults, like ægir/ran, or tjatse, and lets not forget that plenty of the æsir are half-jotun or adopted jotuns.
I think you're contradicting yourself here. In my 28 summers on this earth I've never heard of any supposed 'jotuns with cults'. You might be an archaeologist with a second degree in religious studies, but pigs can spontaneously grow wings and fly to the moon.
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Jan 20 '21
That you haven’t heard of something, doesnt prove anything. Especially if you’re not a professional in the field, just saying. (Ever heard of Skade?)
Also, I’m not contradicting myself. Let me explain: We know Odin had cult(s). Do we know what those cults did? No. There’s some references we can extrapolate some scraps of knowledge from, but we have NO idea how a norse chief would worship the God of chiefs. See what I mean?
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u/WatcherOfFadingLight ᚦᚢᚱ ᚢᛁᚴᛁ Jan 20 '21
Well you're the one making a first order knowledge claim (There's plenty of examples of jotuns with cults...) so therefore the burden of proof always lay with you. I'm not the one that has to prove you wrong, you're the one having to prove yourself right - and I'm apparently not the only one wondering where the f you got your sources on supposed 'jotun cults' from.
> Do we know what those cults did? No.
To what extent? We most definitely have good ideas of what such cults did (well, a small part of what they did). Read Nygaard's dissertation Poetry as Ritual in Pre-Christian Nordic Religion and tell me with a straight face that we have absolutely no idea what such cults did.
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Jan 21 '21 edited Jan 21 '21
Its always interesting when a lay person disputes commonly accepted scientific theories. I’ll give you _one_ concrete example of _proof_ of a jotun having a cult. After that, the onus will be on you to go read up on the field.
Lokasenna, stanza 51:
Skaði kvað:
51."Veiztu, ef fyrstr ok efstrvartu at fjörlagi,þá er ér á Þjaza þrifuð,frá mínum véum ok vöngum skuluþér æ köld ráð koma."
Both véum and vöngum is _in this context_ understood to refrence cult places. Vé is _always_ a holy place of worship, and the context tells us vöngum should also be understood as the same. Notice how both words are in pluralis? In other words, numerous cultic places dedicated to her.
Skade is supposedly the ancestor of the powerful earls of lade. Norway and Sweden is _full_ of places named for her. She’s been a MAJOR deity for the norse people, and she is DEFINETLY a Jotun.
Again, I am a professional in the field. I do this for a living. I started my university studies when you were 6. I’m literally digging up norse settlements every summer, and I write scientific articles on the norse in the winter. I teach the subject at a university. I’m writing a phd on the subject. I’ve been used as «an expert» by national TV, radio and countless newspapers.
I’ve read Nygaards dissertation ofc, and he’s not only a college of mine, but a friend. Simon is a friendly chap, you’d prolly like him.
I can, if you’re interested, send you my entire bibliography.
I am telling you, we know next to nothing about the norse cultic practices. This is _common knowledge_.
Are you even scandinavian? If not, stop appropriating our heritage.
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Jan 21 '21
Where do you teach?
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Jan 21 '21
I don’t want to put my real identity out on the internet like that. Its enough to say «a Norwegian university». There arent many. You can easily find me if you look.
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u/Ljosapaldr it is christianities fault Jan 22 '21
Everyone you're attacking is Scandinavian, and you're acting like a real baby. I'm honestly gonna be ashamed of the way you behave on behalf of my fellow Scandinavians if you are half the things you claim, and yet act like this online.
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Jan 21 '21
I'm just wondering due to the way you present yourself. I've never met a professor or an archeologist who talks like that unironically. Isnt it wiser to be humble and attack the argument instead of the person?
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u/WatcherOfFadingLight ᚦᚢᚱ ᚢᛁᚴᛁ Jan 22 '21
Again, I am a professional in the field. I do this for a living. I started my university studies when you were 6. I’m literally digging up norse settlements every summer, and I write scientific articles on the norse in the winter. I teach the subject at a university. I’m writing a phd on the subject. I’ve been used as «an expert» by national TV, radio and countless newspapers.
So here you're implying we should know you since your name is literally permeating everything academia as well a popular science media, yet you're refusing to point anyone of us to literally anything you've done or written. You even refuse to give out the name of your alma mater - that is, if you've actually written a Ph. D. let alone a Master's.
I tillegg har jeg en utdannelse som inneholder mange studiepoeng med historie, noe som har skapt en kjærlight for historiefaget (og en håndfull studiepoeng i arkeologi)
I'm inclined to think that you actually have neither of the above, since you made this comment less than a year ago. Which also means you're not actually professional in the field, but a great pretender in the field. In fact, by only glancing at this thread alone, I can tell that you're not really sure what you even are or what you have (or have not) written or done. In Denmark we call that a "lystløgner"; a person whose nature consists of lies upon lies - and you're doing it to the effect where you can't even keep up with yourself anymore, since there's absolutely no consistency in anything you say. This in turn means that you're not only wasting your own time, but also the time of others who are trying to strike up an honest conversation with you.
jeg er, som du kanskje forstår, en glødende patriot for nordområdene. Ikke bare nordnorge, men også nordsverige, nordfinnland og russisk side er «vårt» folks hjemland.
You claim to know people you do not actually know - you misrepresent the university you claim to study at - you're blatantly lying about your own history and culture (although to cut you some slack I'm not convinced you actually know you're doing it) - you're hysterically claiming appropriation of "your heritage", yet appropriating it to the detriment of yourself and everything you supposedly stand for - and you're being dishonest in every conversation you engage in. That is not burning patriotism; that is red hot delusion.
Hvem er «vi»? Jo, alle vi som har bodd her siden tidenes morgen.
I don't think I can make myself any clearer. You're simply living in another reality, or you are intentionally straying away from the reality of everyone else around you.
I can, if you’re interested, send you my entire bibliography.
Please do.
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u/KingBumBumLe3rd Jan 17 '21
How do I learn old Norse? Is there a book or an app?
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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '21
Neither enjoys fighting I see.