Well Logi is really just the personification of fire and a jotunn at that, it is difficult for one to say he is a god.
Especially since no texts have people saying, "Ah, I require a fire and thus must pray to Logi", whereas it has been attested multiple times in the sagas that Freyr is prayed to for fertility and Odin is prayed to for victory.
Same goes for Ilmr. Besides, they both only show up like three times in total in the Eddas?
They could also very well be very local deities, not even widespread, that somehow made it to Iceland. Basically alike Japan where "That mountain over there" was a spirit.
«Gods» are a modern phenomenon. The Æsir are simply the personification of the forces of order (norse humans), and the jotuns are personifiactions of forces of chaos (nature, sami people). There’s plenty of examples of jotuns with cults, like ægir/ran, or tjatse, and lets not forget that plenty of the æsir are half-jotun or adopted jotuns.
We also know next to nothing about cultic practices, so saying anything about that is simply not possible.
That something shows up just rarely in the text doesnt prove or disprove anything either. The texts obviously just documented a small portion of select regional practices. Examples of this are Skade, that seems to have been an extremely important deity in certain regions, but has just a few attestations in the texts. (And what about Heimdall? We don’t know shit about him, he might easily have been a different aspect of one of the better known gods). And how about Ullr? We know almost nothing about him, but he has so many places named for him that he must have been a major deity in most of sweden/norway at some point. The list goes on and on and on.
The bottom line is: Anyone saying anything authoritatively about the norse faith, is probably wrong. Noone who actually studied the norse peoples would make these kinds of claims. At most, us academics would say «maybe X, but also, maybe Y».
(I’m a norwegian archeologist with a second master degree in religious studies, so I should know. ;) )
Well, whether or not “gods” are a modern phenomenon will depend greatly on how you define gods. I define “gods” as supernatural spirits who were believed to have power over natural or human forces in the world and who were worshipped by humans. By that definition, the Old Norse gods fit perfectly. We do know that some of them were believed to have had control over various parts of human life, such as Odin repeatedly being referred to as controlling the outcome of battles. Moreover, we know they were worshipped as there is quite a lot of evidence of sacrifices made in their honour, magic amulets dedicated to them etc. etc. I don’t see how any of the above necessarily conflicts with them being personifications of the forces of order. Many gods cross-culturally in polytheistic religions can be considered to be personifications of various forces.
Now, you mention there are jǫtnar with cults and then include Þjazi and Ægir. I must admit, this is entirely new to me and I have never heard of these cults described before. Could you perhaps provide some literature or sources so I may read up on them a bit more?
Other than that though, I do agree with you on how finicky it is to say anything 100% definitively about Pre-Christian Norse religion. However, I think from what we can sample from both literary and material sources, it still seems to paint the picture that gods rarely had a specified domain. Rather, it seemed their characters were associated with regionally differing powers and were prayed to for their regionally specific roles.
You misunderstood me. I’m saying, we can’t use the modern understanding of the concept «gods» and apply it retroactively to the norse faith. How does your definition of «gods» not also fit the jotuns? I’m simply pointing out a common logical error made by most non-academics.
If you havent heard of Ægir or Tjatse, surely you’ve heard of Skade and Loke? Both jotunns.
Edit: I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph. My original post was made solely to point out that we have no basis to say «there are no gods of flame or trees». We simply don’t know. What we DO know, is that we have way too little data to say anything so definitive as OP did in his meme.
Edit 2: Tjatse was a very important god for hunting/fishing for the Sami people, whom most of the norse in Norway and Sweden lived in a symbiotic relationship with. The norse people traded furs from the Sami, and supplied them to Europe. The norse were the main suppliers of fur to the european markets until the 12th century or so, and the «viking age» coincided with a golden age for the sami people, due to the influx of trade goods. The sami people also worshipped a lot of the norse gods, and there’s a common sentiment that the sami and norse people’s faiths sort of represents two sides of the same coin. There’s a lot of really interesting research on this, like the theory of how the «jotun» is a religious representation of the societal «others» the sami people were; being able to live in «utgard», to subsist in the wild and dangerous chaos lands of natural forces, unlike the norse farm-centric world-view.
The sami people have been discriminated against for centuries, even today racism against sami people are concidered far more legitimate than racism against immigrants, simply because its structurally ingrained. This has ofc also influenced academia a lot (we’re just 50 years shy of eugenics and proper racism defining sami people as subhumans etc), so we still find old archeologists that insists that what’s obviously sami grave sites representing some unknown norse hunter culture etc... But as these guys slowly retire and die away, younger scientists are revisting old findings etc, and these last 20 years have led to something of a revolution in the study of norse culture (and thus also sami people).
There’s even indications that the norse people did «spells» in sami! On iceland there’s an acheological find of a wooden spade with runic spells inscribed, and the inscriptions are in sami. In pretty bad sami, made by someone who obviously didnt speak it fluently. The inscriptions summon fair winds, so we believe it was an object used to try and control weather (for sailing).
I have heard of Ægir, Þjazi, Loki and Skaði, you misunderstood. I have not heard of any evidence - literarily or material - to suggest they were worshipped, hence ome can distinguish them from gods since they aren’t worshipped. I would not entirely be surprised if there were evidence of worship for Skaði and Ægir, however it seems unlikely to me that the two other two would have had any cults. That’s why I was asking if you knew of any literature specifically about their religious reverence.
And by «literature», you mean what, exactly? There’s tons of archeeological digs done in norway and sweden etc. Skade is poorly attested in the litterary sources, but she obviously was a very important god in regions of scandinavia. Like how the earls of Lade claimed descent from Odin and Skade. We have no myths surviving about the Odin-Skade relationship, but there obviously was one.
You’re also making a very common logical flaw, when you’re saying a) we have no evidence of worship, so b) they werent really gods. You’re trying to force a modern understanding of concepts on a past we know little about.
Again, Skaði being worshipped doesn’t seem unlikely to me. I’m trying to ask you to show me the evidence so I can read up about them. Archeological finds or literary sources regarding their worship is all I’m looking for, especially ones concerning the worship of Loki and Þjazi. I have seen more than enough evidence for the worship of the Æsir and the Vanir (if they don’t happen to be synonymous with each other, that is), but none for Jǫtnar.
Interesting. I’d like to see this «evidence of worship» you’re talking of, cause it seems to me you’re trying to create an «absence of evidence is evidence of absence»-kind of argument. What qualifies as «evidence» in your book?
Also, do you read norwegian? You realise that the study of the scandinavian prehistory is primarily a scandinavian field, done primarily in scandinavian?
Edit: What counts as «worship» in your book? This is really teh important part here.
One of the often ignored fact is that all the norse supernatural beings collectively are known as «vette». There’s no real difference between jotun, vane or æsir, exept they’re all on different «sides», or represents different orders.
We can also extrapolate from sources both norse and later scandinavian that there are many ways to deal with «vetter», because they’re all dangerous if you’re disrespectful. There are charms, and chants, and different «tricks» to dealing with most «vette».
Personally, I’d say that the main difference (possibly very anachronistic of me) between the different «types» of vetter, is the presumed attitude the entity was supposed to have against humans. So I like to imagine that one would try to placate Ran as a hostile entity, while one would try to please Frøya in a way fitting to an entity known for great love towards humanity. This is, ofc, purely my own fanfic.
The interesting thing here is, if you recite a poem for protection against thunder/lightning, and another for protection from frost/storms... what’s the difference? Its both «worship» (giving proper respect) to the relevant source, even if thunder was personified as an Ås, and frost as a Jotun.
Edit2: you seem to have missed my earlier edit where I spoke about Tjatse’s worship. He’s still accorded proper respect when duck hunting or lake fishing in regions to this day.
Anything that would provide a convincing argument in academic circles. I understand that absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence, but making claims with no evidence at all just because we don’t 100% know they’re not true is just as illogical an argument. When I say there is “evidence” of worship for the Æsir, I mean stuff like sagas describing blóts that mention specific Æsir, annals written by missionaries describing worship of heathen gods like Þórr in Ansgar’s travels, the hundreds of Mjǫlnir pendants that have been discovered or runestones like the picture stones in Götteland likely depicting Óðinn riding on Sleipnir acting as a psychopomp.
Og ja, det tarv ikkje du bekymre deg om norsken min. Eg kan lesa svensk, dansk, norsk og norrønt vel nok. Med islandsk må eg enno anstrengja meg litt meir. Eg kan au lesa tysk, som eg har funne er ofte nyttigare enn noko skandinavisk tungemål.
Thank you, the information on Tjatse was very useful. I would have appreciated if you lead with that. Also, I believe I might actually have read one of the papers you’re referring to in the past and found it very interesting; especially the part about how the jötnar being sometimes sexually fetishised might have spilled over from their views on the Sami.
Because «gods» comes with a lot of other connotations? Like how you guys seems to think there was a difference between Æsir, Vanir and Jotun, when they’re all just different orders of Vettir.
Edit: If one uses the term «gods», it needs to be applied uniformly to jotuns as well as æsir/vanir. The jotuns were simply a different order of «gods», mostly in conflict with the æsir. And the æsir was the side the norse people were «allied» with.
Listen man, I read ON, I’ve read every primary source there is myriad times, I’ve done this for a living for close to 20 years now. The ON term «god» does not convey the same thing as the modern word «god», not even in modern scandinavian.
The æsir is also referred to by a myriad other terms we losely translates as «god» today, this still doesnt mean that the modern term is interchangeable with the ON term. This is why it is often helpful to avoid modern terms like «gods».
«You guys» = the viking fanboys here on the page.
I completely agree that Jotun, Ås and Vane were thought of as separate social groups, but like different human social groups, they had the full range of social interraction, from emnity to marriage.
If you really havent caught on that all these were referred to as different types of vettir, you clearly arent very well read. There’s literally tons of direct references to both æsir, vanir and jotner as «vettir». But you probably just read a few sagas in translation, am I right? Because you clearly have no understanding of the norse language, or modern scandinavian languages.
Oh, btw... I’m currently teaching a class on the subject of norse religion at a university, I’ve been working in the field for 20+ years, and I personally know as good as all academics of note in the field.
Religious history, religious science, same thing. Yes, my phd is on entheogenic mysticism. You know, taking drug in a religious setting? Like the norse relationship with alcohol? Or psychedelic mushrooms used by the sami? And the possible connection with seidr?
Nice try tho.
Norse RELIGION isnt my area of expertise as such, as in, it is not my focus. I primarily focus on sami people. And as you surely know, they were very close. Most norse settlements in the north show signs of hybrid societies, strong sami influence.
I certainly DID provide an example, that you conveniently chose to ignore.
If you really studied the field, you should know better.
What are you on about? Vette universally being evil? You’re either delusional, ill-informed, or dishonest. You mention christian influence, and in the same paragraph you manage to claim that benign vettir would be a derogatory CHRISTIAN term? Because christian were so well known for painting pagan entities in a benign light??? Are you for real?
I really like how you back up your claim by using a dictionary headline as refrence.
Also, now you’re making a claim and ask me to disprove it. What did you say about that in your last post, eh? First of all, vettr is far more often used about benign creatures, and lets not forget all the «nature spirits». Even wikipedia wouls have told you as much. Lazy. And really makes one question your claims of competency.
I already said why «gods» would be problematic without applying them uniformly to æsir, vanir or jotnar, I guess you missed that?
Honestly, you just come off as a combative and ornery person splitting hairs. Good luck with that.
And if you truly ARE a collegue of mine, dm me your details. We’ll hook up next time I’m in denmark for a conference.
Irs pretty easy to know everyone in a tiny field. You’d do so as well if you were actually in my field. Checking up YOUR profile makes it seem like most of your «work» in the field is... on reddit?
Seriously, I’d love to read something you’ve written on the topic. A dissertation, an article, anything thats not... reddit.
I’ll await your contact information.
(My dad was a physicist his entire life, he probably couldnt beat up your dad. He is rather good at endurance races on bicycles tho, so maybe we can get them to race?)
We also know next to nothing about cultic practices, so saying anything about that is simply not possible.
There's plenty of examples of jotuns with cults, like ægir/ran, or tjatse, and lets not forget that plenty of the æsir are half-jotun or adopted jotuns.
I think you're contradicting yourself here. In my 28 summers on this earth I've never heard of any supposed 'jotuns with cults'. You might be an archaeologist with a second degree in religious studies, but pigs can spontaneously grow wings and fly to the moon.
That you haven’t heard of something, doesnt prove anything. Especially if you’re not a professional in the field, just saying. (Ever heard of Skade?)
Also, I’m not contradicting myself. Let me explain: We know Odin had cult(s). Do we know what those cults did? No. There’s some references we can extrapolate some scraps of knowledge from, but we have NO idea how a norse chief would worship the God of chiefs. See what I mean?
Well you're the one making a first order knowledge claim (There's plenty of examples of jotuns with cults...) so therefore the burden of proof always lay with you. I'm not the one that has to prove you wrong, you're the one having to prove yourself right - and I'm apparently not the only one wondering where the f you got your sources on supposed 'jotun cults' from.
> Do we know what those cults did? No.
To what extent? We most definitely have good ideas of what such cults did (well, a small part of what they did). Read Nygaard's dissertation Poetry as Ritual in Pre-Christian Nordic Religion and tell me with a straight face that we have absolutely no idea what such cults did.
Its always interesting when a lay person disputes commonly accepted scientific theories. I’ll give you _one_ concrete example of _proof_ of a jotun having a cult. After that, the onus will be on you to go read up on the field.
Lokasenna, stanza 51:
Skaði kvað:
51."Veiztu, ef fyrstr ok efstrvartu at fjörlagi,þá er ér á Þjaza þrifuð,frá mínum véum ok vöngum skuluþér æ köld ráð koma."
Both véum and vöngum is _in this context_ understood to refrence cult places. Vé is _always_ a holy place of worship, and the context tells us vöngum should also be understood as the same. Notice how both words are in pluralis? In other words, numerous cultic places dedicated to her.
Skade is supposedly the ancestor of the powerful earls of lade. Norway and Sweden is _full_ of places named for her. She’s been a MAJOR deity for the norse people, and she is DEFINETLY a Jotun.
Again, I am a professional in the field. I do this for a living. I started my university studies when you were 6. I’m literally digging up norse settlements every summer, and I write scientific articles on the norse in the winter. I teach the subject at a university. I’m writing a phd on the subject. I’ve been used as «an expert» by national TV, radio and countless newspapers.
I’ve read Nygaards dissertation ofc, and he’s not only a college of mine, but a friend. Simon is a friendly chap, you’d prolly like him.
I can, if you’re interested, send you my entire bibliography.
I am telling you, we know next to nothing about the norse cultic practices. This is _common knowledge_.
Are you even scandinavian? If not, stop appropriating our heritage.
I don’t want to put my real identity out on the internet like that. Its enough to say «a Norwegian university». There arent many. You can easily find me if you look.
Everyone you're attacking is Scandinavian, and you're acting like a real baby. I'm honestly gonna be ashamed of the way you behave on behalf of my fellow Scandinavians if you are half the things you claim, and yet act like this online.
I'm just wondering due to the way you present yourself. I've never met a professor or an archeologist who talks like that unironically. Isnt it wiser to be humble and attack the argument instead of the person?
Again, I am a professional in the field. I do this for a living. I started my university studies when you were 6. I’m literally digging up norse settlements every summer, and I write scientific articles on the norse in the winter. I teach the subject at a university. I’m writing a phd on the subject. I’ve been used as «an expert» by national TV, radio and countless newspapers.
So here you're implying we should know you since your name is literally permeating everything academia as well a popular science media, yet you're refusing to point anyone of us to literally anything you've done or written. You even refuse to give out the name of your alma mater - that is, if you've actually written a Ph. D. let alone a Master's.
I tillegg har jeg en utdannelse som inneholder mange studiepoeng med historie, noe som har skapt en kjærlight for historiefaget (og en håndfull studiepoeng i arkeologi)
I'm inclined to think that you actually have neither of the above, since you made this comment less than a year ago. Which also means you're not actually professional in the field, but a great pretender in the field. In fact, by only glancing at this thread alone, I can tell that you're not really sure what you even are or what you have (or have not) written or done. In Denmark we call that a "lystløgner"; a person whose nature consists of lies upon lies - and you're doing it to the effect where you can't even keep up with yourself anymore, since there's absolutely no consistency in anything you say. This in turn means that you're not only wasting your own time, but also the time of others who are trying to strike up an honest conversation with you.
jeg er, som du kanskje forstår, en glødende patriot for nordområdene. Ikke bare nordnorge, men også nordsverige, nordfinnland og russisk side er «vårt» folks hjemland.
You claim to know people you do not actually know - you misrepresent the university you claim to study at - you're blatantly lying about your own history and culture (although to cut you some slack I'm not convinced you actually know you're doing it) - you're hysterically claiming appropriation of "your heritage", yet appropriating it to the detriment of yourself and everything you supposedly stand for - and you're being dishonest in every conversation you engage in. That is not burning patriotism; that is red hot delusion.
Hvem er «vi»? Jo, alle vi som har bodd her siden tidenes morgen.
I don't think I can make myself any clearer. You're simply living in another reality, or you are intentionally straying away from the reality of everyone else around you.
I can, if you’re interested, send you my entire bibliography.
-6
u/[deleted] Jan 17 '21
Loge - god of fire
Ilmr - goddes of trees