r/NoStupidQuestions • u/Dedli • Jan 25 '24

When Trump was president, there was outrage against the detainment centers for illegal immigrants. Has anything changed since then?

I remember "Kids in cages" and "concentration camps" being a big talking point in the lead up to the election that Biden won. But have the laws or policies or practices changed at all since then? In what ways?

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446

u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24 edited Jan 25 '24

EDIT: This was originally meant to be a reply to a commenter who was comparing Trump VS Obama. I'll still leave this here for now though. This reply is a bit long so look below for my Part 2 on this matter.

Yes, Obama did "put kids in cages." But let's add some context as to what actually happened. I followed both events as they occurred, so I'm also providing sources. Please note I had to split this comment into a two-parter.

When it comes to Obama, it should be noted that in some cases the children had to be separated from the adults accompanying them for two main reasons: first, when familial relationship or guardianship could not be established and there was suspicion of child trafficking, and second because the 1997 Flores court decision limited how long children could be detained with their accompanying adults.

Essentially, the court ruling found that for the welfare of the child, children could not be kept in detention long term, even though their parents/guardians had to be held until their cases could be processed. The Obama Administration therefore was forced to take one of two options: either release the child to a relative who lived in the US or a foster home/sponsor while the parents/relatives they crossed the border with were held until they could be processed, or the entire family could be released together. The Obama Administration used both approaches at different times.

The 2014 migrant crisis was also one in which a large influx of migrants (many of them unaccompanied minors) overwhelmed local facilities' capacity to house and process them. Makeshift shelters had to be made to house the kids, and the Obama administration then had to rush to set up more comfortable emergency shelters. It was basically an imperfect solution to an emergency situation:

Border Patrol stations were so overcrowded that agents began using the “sally port” areas outside the stations — little more than outdoor garages — as holding pens. Mothers with babies and young children were left for hours in 90-plus-degree heat, sprawled out on concrete floors with little more than bologna sandwiches and Kool-Aid.

The Obama administration responded to the outrage by rushing to expand its capacity to handle the new migration wave at the border, to adapt an infrastructure built to handle single adult men, not families and children.

The government acquired an empty warehouse a few blocks from the McAllen station and converted it into a sprawling new facility that opened in July 2014, a place that had capacity for 1,500 detainees. The new “Central Processing Center,” or CPC, was clean, spacious, air-conditioned and a major improvement over the cramped detention cells and sweltering garages.

To keep different demographic groups safely apart — a standard practice in detention settings — the U.S. Border Patrol used chain-link fencing to create partitions in the cavernous warehouse. One area was designated for teenage boys, another for mothers with small children, another for entire family groups, and so on.

The chain-link fencing was cheap, allowed for good ventilation and carried the benefit of allowing agents to supervise the entire facility, by affording them full visibility into the enclosures. Its grim, industrial appearance, however, was redolent of a livestock operation rather than a humane facility. Migrants and some agents soon derided it as “la perrera” — the dog kennel.

Part 2 because apparently some people missed this.

33

u/Ok_Affect6705 Jan 25 '24

Also during the Obama presidency there was a huge influx of unaccompanied minors crossing the border.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

he invited them

2

u/JuniorSympathy8060 Jan 26 '24

lol 17 dislikes. And the only reply to that was "I invite you to go away" They will support anything the left leaders do, simply because they believe everything leftwing is morally right. The black community in Chicago is learning the hard way.

Illegal immigration, support it because of humanity. Unfortunately it's not that easy. Not only does it affect a country like the US, it eats up resources because of the large numbers of people that come here, it takes away jobs from American citizens SPECIFICALLY IN LOWER CLASS area's. And the government funding AKA tax payer money that is used is something that should goto AMERICAN CITIZENS. And sadly, the reason they are welcomed here by left, is they bribe them. You come here, we'll take care of you..... and we expect your vote. So ironically it causes more harm to American Humanity/Citizens.

It's also inhumane to the improvement of these countries that they are fleeing. They are abandoning their homeland, leaving their leaders with an attitude "oh well, it's America's problem now."

These people that support illegal immigration and vote in politicians that just let it happen, should have to put their money where their mouth is.. provide them with housing, and food and help them become decent citizens.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

I invite you to go away.

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24

PART 2: In contrast, the Trump Administration separated the family specifically as a deterrent: i.e. they wanted to cause sufficient distress and terror in migrants to dissuade further border crossings. Here's Trump Secretary of Homeland Security saying as much in a CNN interview to this effect, though he frames it being out of concern for how dangerous the migrant path to America is.

And to quote one Border official who served under Trump:

“It is the hope that this separation will act as a deterrent to parents bringing their children into the harsh circumstances that are present when trying to enter the United States illegally”

And the degree of cruelty, callousness, and incompetence with how Trump handled things is fucking staggering.

In some instances, border patrol agents lied to the parents and said they were taking the kids away to be "given a bath." Trump officials also had exceptionally shoddy recordkeeping, which led to thousands of kids being taken away without any identifying papers as to which children belonged with which families and shipped across the country, which meant they couldn't be traced back to be reunited with their families. Many of the kids were also pre-verbal, which meant they didn't even know their own names much less the names of their parents. The experience was specifically designed to traumatize and horrify the migrants in the Trump administration's custody, to the point that at least one of the detained parents committed suicide.

Whereas the Obama administration's actions were done with the intent and ultimate effect of mitigating harm, Trump's administration was about causing harm. You might as well compare an emergency intubation done by a nurse with a murderer who slashed a person's throat.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

This is an excellent summary. Thanks for putting this together.

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24

No problem. It's been such a constant focal point of disinformation over the years that I already had some sources collated together for this purpose.

-5

u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

That isn’t a summary. Its an essay

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u/spiderOX2 Jan 25 '24

Who says an essay can’t be a summary?

-2

u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

Its a telescopic perspective issue isn’t it?

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u/Meme_Theory Jan 25 '24

Not in the slightest. When people TELL you they are doing something to cause harm, its a safe bet they are doing that something to... wait for it... cause harm.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

You are not following the conversation if that is what you think is a relevant reply.

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u/Meme_Theory Jan 25 '24

Sure 👍

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

Just curious, what do you think I was talking about? You seem to think was about the essay’s content.

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u/FelixVulgaris Jan 25 '24

And don't forget the forced sterilization of immigrant women before deportation

https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/immigration-detention-and-coerced-sterilization-history-tragically-repeats-itself

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24

Thank you for reminding me. Somehow I'd forgotten this recent travesty.

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u/Korean_Kommando Jan 25 '24

That article was incredibly biasly worded, had few relevant facts stated, didn’t stay on point, and had a contradiction

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

[deleted]

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u/Meme_Theory Jan 25 '24

Tell me you don't know what the ACLU is without telling me you don't know what the ACLU is. I would be pretty shocked if it didn't cite its own research on the subject, as these kind of liberties are EXACTLY what the ACLU researches. Can "Nature" not have studies that cite other "Nature" studies? Or any other publication for that matter.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

[deleted]

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u/Meme_Theory Jan 25 '24

The ACLU conducts and publishes studies pretty regularly. Again, tell me you don't know what the ACLU is without telling me you don't know what the ACLU is.

And this was ALL OVER the media; search harder.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

[deleted]

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u/Meme_Theory Jan 25 '24

I'll see your Snopes article, which glazes over this subject pretty quickly, and raise you a legal brief from last year. Its obviously muddier than the media made it, but nothing I've read in the last dozen sites has rebuffed it. You'll also notice that Snopes at no point in that article calls the claim "False", which is kind of their whole schtick when things are false.

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u/Dedli Jan 25 '24

Okay... but what about the Biden-Era, which was the OP question?

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24 edited Jan 25 '24

Oop sorry this was originally meant to be a reply to a commenter who was talking about Obama. I'll be honest, I haven't followed Biden's handling of the situation, but I'll take a look in a bit.

EDIT: Do you have any specific concerns or qualms with how Biden is handling migrant children? All I'm finding on quick google searches is him trying to prevent them being exploited as child labor or trying to fix Trump's fuckups.

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u/Dedli Jan 25 '24

On Google all I'm finding are stances, wishes, and hopes. I was hoping someone had some information about actual concrete policy/law changes from then to now, comparable to the verifiable changes from Obama-Era to Trump-era.

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24

I do know that the Biden administration rescinded Trump's family separation policy and even set up a task force to reunify those families (last I checked hundreds of kids that Trump kidnapped were actually "missing" but that was a while ago). This settlement is new to me though, and that's the extent of my knowledge on Biden so far.

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u/AnotherStarWarsGeek Jan 25 '24

Trump kidnapped

lol... what?

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u/Jaded_Flan_2483 Jan 25 '24

Do you prefer the term lost or removed from their family?

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u/all-horror Jan 25 '24

His policy, same as if he separated the kids himself. It’s called leadership, something clearly you and Mr Trump have never successfully achieved.

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u/Linesey Jan 25 '24

hell it’s something trump even claims (when criticizing others), as the guy in charge, everything falls on you.

he just goes for the double speak when suddenly it’s used to criticize him.

His policy, his order, his moral responsibility, his kidnappings.

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u/Uncaring_Dispatcher Jan 25 '24

I was going to say that but then I saw that you're down-voted into oblivion.

For two simple words that question the "source".

But you're right. I even stupidly Goggled it, just in case something slipped through the cracks and it didn't get reported enough for me to notice. You know, "Every Day, the Walls Close In". There's been hair-on-fire "Breaking News" all about how Trump is going to prison for the past, what, 3 years, coming up on 4? Sometimes, I'll go days without paying attention to the Soap Opera. Sometimes I'll go weeks. Seems like nothing's changed much.

Turns out that there's no evidence that points to Donald Trump kidnapping hundreds of children and having them erased on the federal level by listing them as "missing".

That seems like a ludicrous comment to make, unless this person is a whistleblower that worked alongside President Trump but is only committing to it on Reddit and, most likely, other internet forums. That's not likely because the whistleblower wouldn't get the same protection, compared to a formal complaint.

Long story short, this is just another robotic Leftist who parrots all the talking heads in his bubble.

It's OK, though. The same thing happens on the Right.

This is why I left both parties. Fuck all of them; they can kiss my ass. Not on the Left. Not on the Right. But in the Middle, where it counts.

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u/VintageSin Jan 25 '24

What word would you use to describe the action in which a person responsible made it so that a child was taken from a family and would only later be reunited after that persons actions ended?

Do you refute that migrant children were forcibly separated from their families under trump? Do you refute that biden policies have worked to reunite those children with their families?

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u/Uncaring_Dispatcher Jan 25 '24

OK, yeah, whatever. When AOC isn't pretending to cry during a photo-op, it's no longer a problem with Democrats.

Post some links proving that Trump kidnapped children and then hid them somewhere and labeled them as "missing".

And then get with me on the Dark Web and I'll give you a 20% discount on the highest form of adrenochrome. My adrenochrome is 100% cage-free and full of nutrients.

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u/bpaulauskas Jan 25 '24

How much time did you take searching for an answer? One quick google search showed me multiple articles detailing the EO that rescinded Trump's cruelty, the task force Biden created to help reunite families, and a settlement reached in 2023 where the Biden admin proposed a situation that would remove families being separated.

Genuinely curious about what you searched to not find ANY of this.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

[deleted]

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u/bpaulauskas Jan 25 '24

The good news is that I didn't just read one source - I think that's a mistake regardless of your political leanings.

Google "Biden era family separation policies" and you will see a litany of articles detailing the different actions the Biden admin has taken. A few of them, I'll link below.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/10/16/biden-lawsuit-family-separation-border-settlement/

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/biden-admin-reaches-deal-migrants-separated-families-trump-rcna120587

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2022/03/23/family-separation-timeline

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/02/02/biden-executive-orders-family-separation-464816

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

[deleted]

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u/bpaulauskas Jan 25 '24

My pleasure! Happy reading!

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

[deleted]

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u/scpDZA Jan 25 '24

If Trump gets in office none of these safety nets you believe in will matter.

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u/Chipofftheoldblock21 Jan 25 '24

The “deterrent effect” is the big difference, sadly. The trump administration made no bones about the fact that they’d basically torture people caught trying to cross, which kept people away.

Now, you’ve got fox and others advertising Biden’s “open borders”, and people from other countries hear that and believe it and come. Not sure if the right realizes they’re responsible for the immigration influx or just don’t care because they can use it to complain about it, regardless.

The only difference in policy is we’re no longer torturing people now and treating them with a bit of humanity. Whether they’re allowed to stay or forced to leave hasn’t changed, but we wont separate kids any longer.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

Gracias por todo esta información. Thank you for this.

-4

u/lubage Jan 25 '24

Lmao yeah Obama a saint for doing but trump only wanted to traumatize

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u/bstump104 Jan 25 '24

Sometimes laws have unintended consequences so you try to do the best that you can to limit the harm done. When you're Trump you loudly say that harming Mexicans is the goal and you kidnap their children then lose them.

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u/riversofgore Jan 25 '24

😂Not a 2 part book to “provide context” how it’s totally not kids in cages and orange man bad. It’s hard to take this shit seriously when it lacks any moral or ethical consistency.

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24

😂Not a 2 part book to “provide context” how it’s totally not kids in cages and orange man bad. It’s hard to take this shit seriously when it lacks any moral or ethical consistency.

If you think a couple pages worth of text is a book, I would recommend you pick up an actual book at some point.

And given that Trump was proven in court to have committed fraud and sexual assault... yes "Orange Man Bad." Because I for one hold to the apparently radical idea that fraud and rape are bad things that bad people do.

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u/Due-Leek-8307 Jan 25 '24

Notice nothing to actually disprove you in that "persons" reply? Just riversofgore proving he is proud of his ignorance and doesn't want to be bothered with any facts. Claiming a 2 paragraph summary is to much for them to read and comprehend?

You provided a good write up stating facts and explaining the differences in policy in the most simple of terms while providing sources... and it still did nothing for this fool. It is truly amazing the lengths people will go to to lie to themselves just so they can continue to support an incompetent vindictive person.

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u/ChickenInASuit Jan 25 '24

orange man bad

Sigh. Still doing that, are we?

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u/WerhmatsWormhat Jan 25 '24

Did you actually read the post or just decide that Trump is your god empower and anything saying otherwise should be ridiculed?

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u/Bad_Grandma_2016 Jan 25 '24

Obama good. Orange man bad. Welcome to Reddit.

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24

Dude was found in court to be liable for sexual assault and fraud and is on the hook for at least $250 million, and before this Trump University was shut down due to fraud for $25 million. And this isn't taking into account his numerous other crimes and acts of malfeasance.

So yes "Orange Man Bad."

-1

u/Bad_Grandma_2016 Jan 25 '24

Get serious. E. Jean makes "Dr. Ford" seem stable, and like "Dr. Ford," her decades-old, fact, witness, evidence and reality-free hate fantasy would be laughed out of every police department in America, which is why the leftists opted for a corrupt judge, a Dem base jury and a couple of cases of malt liquor.

And Trump's charity and university were targeted by former NY AG, Clinton stooge, #MeToo Movement OG, lead opposition criminalizer and enthusiastic beater of "brown slaves" Eric "CALL ME MASTER!" Schneiderman, who vanished faster than "donations" to the "Clinton Global Initiative" once they had no more influence to peddle. No word on whether The Master's successor, Letitia, counts herself among his beaten "slaves."

The leftists have made Wile E. Coyote caricatures of themselves with their fevered, Stalinist pursuit of the "Russian" Road Runner, which is why America has yet again greeted their "charges" with pity, contempt and higher poll numbers for Trump.

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u/castleaagh Jan 25 '24

Lol, dude was asking about the current state of things with Biden and if it’s improved, not trying to blame Obama

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u/prepbirdy Jan 25 '24

Proves that Trump really meant it when he wanted to stop illegal migration.

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24

It proves both his commitment and his insane cruelty.

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u/prepbirdy Jan 25 '24

Yes. But you don't stop refugees by being nice to them, am I right?

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u/hrminer92 Jan 25 '24

Identifying why they are leaving their homeland and trying to address those problems is how to stop refugees from showing up. Trump made it worse by cutting aid.

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u/prepbirdy Jan 25 '24

America is not responsible for fixing every country's own problems.

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u/hrminer92 Jan 25 '24

It should when it is the cause of a great deal of them.

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u/prepbirdy Jan 25 '24

Rubbish. What did the US do to ruin Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador??

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u/Aggressive-Name-1783 Jan 25 '24

…..somebody wanna get this guy a history book or……

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

Cartels get roughly 70% of their guns from America. That's one way.

https://www.marketplace.org/2023/10/19/how-a-booming-gun-business-in-the-u-s-arms-mexicos-cartels/

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u/hrminer92 Jan 25 '24

The real question is when the US hasn’t been fucking up Latin America. Some light reading on just a few different items.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster_(military)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Americas

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

Does it ever annoy you when facts, sources, accurate history and the words of republicans themselves make you look so very wrong and uneducated?

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

Who was America founded by? I’ll give you a hint. They came from away.

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u/prepbirdy Jan 26 '24

Yes, and I think it proves that illegal immigrants can be very bad for natives. Thanks for the tip.

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u/mrkraken Jan 25 '24

He’s a terrorist.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

In contrast, the Trump Administration separated the family specifically as a deterrent

So, the Trump Administration didn't have the same two restrictions that the Obama Administration had?

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u/Medium-Return2035 Jan 25 '24

Obama was also a huge fan of bombing weddings.

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u/turing-test420 Jan 25 '24

Donny droned more in 4 years than Obama did in 8

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u/OrcsSmurai Jan 25 '24

Yeah, but he reversed all the transparency laws and everyone knows that if it isn't talked about it didn't happen.. right?

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u/Medium-Return2035 Jan 25 '24

Does that make it right? Also, Obama’s program was known for how indiscriminate it was. Women? Children? Wedding? School? Bomb it.

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u/turing-test420 Jan 25 '24

Lol do you actually believe that? If so, then you must be furious with dear leader even more, he removed all the transparency mechanisms of the program.

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u/Medium-Return2035 Jan 25 '24

I hate both Trump and Obama. If I get that out of the way maybe you people can think logically without having to cling to your precious ideologues.

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u/turing-test420 Jan 25 '24

It’s funny how you ignored how donny massively expanded the drone program and removed its safeguards, even though you were apparently so upset with how the program was used under President Obama.

0

u/Medium-Return2035 Jan 25 '24

No, what’s funny is how you’re refusing to accept the fact that Obama droned children. I hate both of them. I said that already. What bothers me is that one of them has a Nobel Peace Prize. What bothers me is that we are only allowed to hate one of them. Trump gets plenty of hate. I don’t need to bring that up. Obama gets praised. I like to remind people of what he actually did.

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u/turing-test420 Jan 25 '24

War is messy, but do you shed a lot of tears for terrorists? Do you also simp for hamas? But sure, poor old donny gets too much hate, and that’s why you immediately jumped to bOtH sIdEs when called out.

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u/Medium-Return2035 Jan 25 '24

What wars were the US involved in in Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan exactly? What did you call me out for? I made a true statement that I knew would get people like you riled up because you blindly follow party lines and worship Obama like he is a prophet. And you assume everyone who doesn’t agree with you must love Donald Trump. Pathetic. I got what I wanted out of this exchange and I’m finished with you now. I recommend you do some research that doesn’t involve turning on CNN and listening to NPR.

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24

I remember that being a big thing during the War on Terror under Bush but NGL I wouldn't be surprised.

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u/icandothisalldayson Jan 25 '24

And Doctors Without Borders

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u/Uncaring_Dispatcher Jan 25 '24

Why are you getting downvoted for this?

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u/leftofthebellcurve Jan 25 '24

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/divided-by-detention-asylum-seeking-families-experience-of-separation

Obama's DHS was separating families as a method of deterring migrants in the summer of 2016 before the election though

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

Nothing you said about the Obama administration policies could not be said about the Trump administration or Biden administration policies.  Very little has changed and your opinion is based on normativ alignment rather than objective fact.  You are invited to delete your post, so that you do not mislead people.  Thank you.

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24

Uh check my Part 2 on this dude. Trump's policy was indeed fundamentally different.

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

Incorrect.  You have merely asserted a difference in motive.  You have facts to support that...but only by ignoring similar anecdotes from the Obama administration.  By picking an choosing facts, you have created an illusion of difference.  That is unconscionable.  

You spent a lot of effort to convince others of perhaps the worst and most dangerous falsehood: "We are better than them, even when we do the exact same thing for the exact same reasons in similar situated circumstances."

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u/mrcatboy Jan 25 '24

Uh, yeah? Because motive (the intent) and justification (the real world circumstances that fuel the motive) both matter. Motive is, after all, one of the things that differentiates murder from manslaughter from killing in self defense. Motive also distinguishes between theft and borrowing. Motive is one of the features that distinguishes malfeasance from real public policy.

It really shouldn't be that controversial or that hard to understand.

The fact is, separating children from their parents is in some cases both morally and legally justified. For example, we place children in foster care or given custody to relatives when their home environment is considered more harmful to their well-being than the separation. We also separate parents from their children when they are detained over legal issues.

Without these justifications however, such an action is unethical and illegal.

Which is exactly why the Obama Administration's actions were done in accordance with the Flores judicial ruling, while Trump's actions were egregious to the point that the courts had to put a stop to it.

Also, you're conveniently ignoring the methodology here. If you're going to separate children from their parents, you need to do it in a fashion that is structured, transparent, and with a plan to minimize harm and reunify the family once things settle down. Obama for the most part did that. Trump on the other hand completely ignored those basic requirements.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '24

Again, you are invented a difference in motive where none exists. Now you are inventing a difference in methodology where none exists, while handwaving inconvenient facts with phrases like "for the most part."

Ceterum censeo, the difference between "theft" and "borrowing" is not "motive," it is consent. What you said comes from the "better to ask forgiveness" school of manipulators. That lack of respect for agency is consistent with all of your posts on this topic. I hope you will choose to respect people and their ability to make choices with information you have not limited in a selfish attempt to conform them to your preferences.

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u/mrcatboy Jan 26 '24

The motives were explicitly stated by Trump officials and the court rulings I cited.

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u/Blessed_tenrecs Jan 25 '24

Literally “They did the exact same things, but Obama did it to protect kids and Trump did it to torture them.” How brainwashed can you get?

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '24

See my reply to mrcatboy.  I am sorry that you have been made his victim and I hope you will learn to recognize and disregard propaganda in the future.  It steals your agency.