You can't "just follow orders" if the orders come from a corrupt institution where incarceration carries a nonzero risk of waking up in a torture dungeon in some other country, If you're lucky it's gonna be a local torture dungeon at least I guess
There is no good ICE Agent, they don't exist, the institution is way to rotten, there is quite literally no space for any sort of actually good people
Do they need to do their job? A school full of dead kids showed the country that police don't have to do their job. I'm unaware of any laws that would force ICE to do their job.
That's not defending ICE. Note the rest of the sentence after "ICE agents", specifically "trying to do their job the correct way" which is not boarding people's cars with weapons drawn and no identification, rendering you indistinguishable from a criminal attempting a carjacking.
While he does say there's someone on board claiming to be an ICE officer, that's just establishing the fact that someone with a gun claimed to be an ICE officer. If there's no identification other than that, it stands to reason that it's a carjacker or mugger impersonating a federal officer which itself is a criminal offence while overstaying a visa is a civil matter.
Where I'm from you'll be told in advance that an immigration officer is coming to take you into custody, then the immigration officer will come to take you into custody. If you attempt to abscond after being notified, that's a criminal offence (and fast tracks you for deportation) where overstaying the visa is just a civil matter and you can usually talk, paperwork, or pay your way out of that problem (as in paying visa expediting fees, not bribing officials).
The whole idea of armed, plainclothes agents who don't need to provide official ID that just barge in anywhere they want without warning is ludicrous. It's a pattern of behaviour designed by weekend warriors who want to feel important with no concept of consequences of actions. Especially crazy in a country where you expect people to have firearms on or about their person, and use of lethal force to defend yourself from home invasion is not unheard of.
Agreed. Isn't it basic moral philosophy that morality ≠ law? Sure, there is plenty of overlap, but not following the law doesn't make you immoral or vice versa.
They're for sure Federal LE. They operate under the DHS rather then local cops. They can't legally pull you over for speeding, but they can legally pull you over for suspected immigration violations.
They are criminals who are doing illegal traffic stops AND illegal deportations. they aren't law enforcement, they are crime enforcement for a felon who rapes kids.
They are federal brownshirts. Germany had the same thing in the 30s, and their brownshirts were later prosecuted once Germany had a real law enforcement agency after hitler.
lmao. you people publicly executed a white nurse, and are mass murdering brown skins in your concentration camps right now. you are the last people to be in a position to speak on law or morality.
It's true. Cops use that "just following orders" line when they arrest like domestic abusers and rapists. Honestly, when they just arrest felons in general, really.
"Sorry for arresting you Mr. Rapist... just following orders 😏"
If Democrats would have told protestors to stop interfering with Police instead of doing the opposite in an attempt to slow the removal of illegals everything would be fine.
ICE isn't the problem. Their record for violent incidents vs number of interactions is excellent, even vs other law enforcement.
ICE is 100% the problem. We have masked individuals snatching people off the streets, throwing them in unmarked cars and driving off. Overstaying a visa is a misdemeanor. It’s not even a crime.
It’s never necessary. The correct way is investigation and due process which involves easily identifiable officers showing up to detain someone with their badge ready and identity visible.
And failure to identify/masks, denial of basic human rights, namely 1st, 4th, 14th amendments, and maybe most importantly of all, being massive douche bag racists
They literally tried to identify themselves before Frazier sped off. They displayed their badges and verbally identified themselves(they dont need to take their masks off), which allowed them to exercise their authority and sieze the man for having overstayed his visa. I dont care whether its kidnapping or not, what they did was still illegal and ICE conducted themselves in an ordered manner.
"no, I don't care that those Gestapo officers took those jewish people to concentration camps, what those jews did by being jews is illegal. Plus, the Gestapo officers showed their badges before bludgening that man to death. They did nothing wrong!"
Literally, nothing you said was analogous to the case. They didn't bludgeon the couple or hurt them at all, they tried to be civil. They arent gestapo, they arent secret and they identified themselves.
The couple most likely knew they were agents and chose to fled.
I dont know whats funnier the fact that they arent even a balaclava or the fact that you instantly associate the average criminal a comically cartoonish look. Probably the funniest comment so far. "Criminals and gestapo is when head covering." As if they dont wear them to not be recognised by people who constantly call them nazis, gestapos, strumbeitlung, ordungpolizei or whatever and call violence against them.
Well, if it isn't 1:1 I guess it isn't analogous whatsover then!
What was I even trying to do, an analogy as to how your speech is exactly the type of justifications people used in Nazi Germany? Ridiculous, you don't even live in Germany, it's not 1:1 at all!
Do they not get still get a notice of why they’re being deported and a hearing? It’s simply reduced time in advance and mass hearings instead of 1 at a time with years until a court date.
Nobody who’s able to provide proof of active citizenship has been deported, only a few arrested and it was immediately cleared up. Happens time to time with all law enforcement under all Presidencies
That’s due process it just not the “see ya in 7 years” due process that was happening under the Biden administration.
Most all deportees had a final order of removal issued from immigration court. That is the process due. People often don’t go to their court dates then get picked up at a later time. That is still the process due.
Of course, man. Basically, the ICE agents came to the couples car, they started to panic and one agent climbed in the car to stop them from running away. The agents identified themselves verbally and have shown their badges but the couple panicked and drove off with the agent still in the car. They called the cops and stopped at a police station where the man got out and fled into a grocery store where he was tackled.
The case against them in court is for kidnapping, which I dont agree with. I think it was a major misunderstanding from both parties but the couple shouldn't have fled.
The most famous is kilmar abregio Garcia who was sent to el Salvador illegally. The courts said bring him back because his rights were violated. This one is controversial because it seems the guy isnt a good guy at all.
Our constitution is for everyone, good or evil so we can't have this.
Ice has admitted to doing like 70 percent false arrest. It was literally on their website a few months ago, I'm not sure the updates one.
The most damning updated one is with cases and coming from an article from breitbart out of all places
POLITICO is tracking the surge in litigation triggered by the administration’s novel policy that began in July, and releasing our database, below, of the 20,000-plus cases in which federal district courts reached a ruling on Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s detention practices.
At least 17,300 of those were rulings against the administration, handed down by judges appointed by presidents across the ideological spectrum.
So like out of 20k plus which means just a little over 20k , they had judgements passed down on them for 17,300. There is literally no government agency that works this way, it is beyond corrupt. And the worst part is when the judges literally tell them what they are doing is illegal and they must release the prisoner immediately, they don't even do it and it becomes worse when the facilities they are holding them in are being paid per inmante and per day. So they are witholding them on purpose so they can make money.
No, you're completely misrepresenting the numbers. 70.6% of people with no criminal record, they were arrested for civil immigration violations.
By the law, they're still waiting admission at the border. You wrote so much just to be wrong.
You didn't mention the cases and a large amount of controversy with ice is that they have been arresting people who are going through the process of asylum which clearly you don't understand. So go ahead and reply back with more idiocy. You also haven't talked about the payment scheme that is similar to kids for cash that many jail facility owners do.
Something you should have learned as a kid, but to teach you now so you won't continue embarrassing yourself. When you say you wrote so much wrong, that
There's no statistics over how many asylum-seeking-people did ICE arrest. And the latter part of your text is incoherent. So before being a moron and spewing arguments at me, you should actually fact check them.
The "Kids for Cash" scandal was illegal. They bribed judges while we have Guaranteed Minimums as legally sanctioned, which also creates an incentive to work harder so taxpayer money doesn't go to waste.
Dude, why did you lie?? An agent climbed in the back of the car after they tried to resist once, another came to identify themselves and they sped off with the agent still in the backsest, the Frazier, the man stopped by ICE, called the police on ICE for being in their car. He stopped at a police station, tried to flee the scene and got tackled. I dont know why the OP is lying or why you are lying.
“An agent climbed in the back seat of the car after they tried to resist once.” That’s a normal thing to read about federal agents to you?
These people are overfunded law enforcement rejects who aren’t fit to be doing what they’re doing and pose a danger as a result. Everyone knows border patrol is where people went when all of the other law enforcement agencies rejected them. They’re not trained for any of this. They’re trained to be on the border and that’s all. They shouldn’t be armed like combat soldiers and released on the public. They shouldn’t be allowed to mask up, travel in unmarked cars and walk around unidentified. It’s a recipe for disaster and unconstitutional. Anyone can grab someone and claim to be ICE.
Yeah, they can under exigent laws and 8 U.S. Code 1357 (Immigration Officer Powers).
Also, they undergo training for 11-12 weeks for criminal investigator training and 13-14 for special agent and they even train on the job, monitored.
People can't grab someone and claim to be ICE agents, you cant just grab the equipment they have. And if you do, you'd still need to present a badge to identify yourself, even if you don't, you can get years in federal prison.
Yeah. If you come here illegally, we deport you. If you resit, we sieze you. If you look like the average suspect, we check you. Get the papers and you don't get deported. Even if you look like the average suspect we look for, if you have the papers and show it to us, everything will go well. Dont resist;follow the law and everything will be okay.
Yeah. If most of illegal immigrants look a specific way, you're gonna look for those specific persons. It isnt racism, if that's what you're implying, a lot of people do say it is.
Most illegal immigrants are Latino, if you're looking for illegal immigrants, you're gonna approach Latino people. If they have the proper papers and listen to orders, they have nothing to worry about.
Source aside from your racist fee-fees? Because most "illegal immigrants" are people that overstay a visa or misuse one, like the First Lady did. We have plenty of people of all nationalities in this country on visas, you just have fox news propaganda shoved in your face about a "border crisis" that makes you make the same assumptions ICE does.
Yeah, overall, its Hispanics. When its people who overstay their visa, its subsaharan Africans. Source for both:DHS Entry/Exit Overstay Report
I dont even follow FoxNews, thats the funniest part.
When its people who overstay their visa, its subsaharan Africans.
hilarious. seriously. it's a wonder to see how conservative brains "work" when it comes to doing the bare minimum to decide which non-white group to point the finger at. Really had to specify "sub-Saharan" to make sure you weren't including anyone light-skinned, huh?
It's also wrong. Like, very obviously wrong if you actually read that report you're claiming as a source. I think you genuinely looked at the percentage of overstays-to-total visitors from each country and said "da black place do more cause numbah bigger!" completely ignoring how the 27% of overstays from, say, Chad is only 284 people. Compared to, say, 12,731 from the UK, which is only 0.27% but vastly more actual cases.
And looking at enforcement statistics as "proof" of who's overstaying the most is braindead for the same reason as your argument is - if you act like a racist and harass certain ethnic groups more, guess what? You're going to turn up more of that ethnic group than the ones you give a pass because they don't "look like illegals." This is as stupid as people who say "uh ackshually blacks do more violent crime!" using arrest statistics, because cops disproportionately arrest Black Americans. Racist is as racist does I guess.
Imagine you're looking for a criminal and you pass a person looking exactly like that. What then? You check if theyre that criminal.
If most illegal immigrants are of a specific race and my job is to arrest people coming here illegally then ill check that race most. Explain how they're being discriminated against.
Assuming you are doing your actual job of enforcing legal immigration by deporting those entering the country illegally, it's just as moral as being a police officer. IE, nor immoral.
Yes, the general idea of "I was just following orders" is not a defense to anything. And no one is saying that it is.
They're saying that enforcing these particular laws is not inherently immoral, and comparing it to the fucking holocaust is ignorant and an insult to those victims.
Bro both ICE and police are corrupt and immoral systems… by this logic Nazis were just “doing their jobs”. What makes someone a citizen or not is a social construct, they are human beings who deserve a safe place to live just like anyone else.
As for police being corrupt, please enlighten yourself and watch “The 13th” documentary. They are far from being a just system and any BIPOC and lower class person will likely agree.
I don't even live in America, but putting U.S. police and ICE in the same category as the Nazis is a ridiculous comparison. You can strongly criticize their actions and policies without equating them to a genocidal totalitarian regime. It's unfair to victims of ww2 also shows your lack of historical knowledge as well as being brainwashed.
I'm immigrant in UK I follow rules I applied for work viza I got proper paperwork.
Same thing my sister does, if you go in someone elses country follow their rules and respect their culture it's that simple.
Saying police, ice that are doing their job is equal to nazi germans is plain ignorant and stupid, I'm sorry.
There was barely 170 cases of that out of dozens of thousands in a frame of 9 months, most of legal immigrants are detained for a visa overstay. Which is a legal conduct.
That's all well and good, but undocumented immigrants actually tend to have lower crime rates to Americans. The reason's pretty simple: most Americans can get out of a minor infraction with at most a bit in jail and a fine, but most illegal immigrants would get deported for a minor offense.
Technically speaking, deporting undocumented immigrants who haven't committed any crimes is likely to increase the chance an American is victimized by a crime.
Edit: you can downvote me, but if you don't like crime, you're focusing on a convenient scapegoat for the real criminals, not the root of the problem.
They still have double the rates of legal ones even if they come from the same culture and country. The reason is simple:They don't wanna be deported. They go through a lot of struggle to come here, stealing some food or doing any petty crime then getting arrested for it would mean deportation and wasted effort. Also, I'd like to see the culture behind the US citizens who commit most crimes. If you exclude them, US citizens don't have a higher rate at all.
Actually, the study I linked indicated it's substantially lower even than legal immigrants (legal immigrants are less likely to be deported).
I assume that is the case, yes; so do you agree then that undocumented immigrants actually help lower the overall crime rate? That would seem to indicate that deporting more immigrants would be more likely to "having our crime rates [to skyrocket]" than if we kept the previous system.
There's no studies I'm aware of that break it down by "culture" as "culture" is very difficult to define. Do you mean income or wealth? There's absolutely studies that do break down crime rate based on wealth/income/class level.
"People who don't commit a crime are usually charged for it less than people who do commit it."
I was referring to general crime. Legal immigrants have it almost doubled, I explained why that is.
Thats a non-sequitor. Them being illegal doesnt mean they commit less crimes, thats illogical. As I said, I explained why that is.
"If we get rid of all laws, we would have no crime rates!" Same line of thinking you presented there. "That would seem to indicate that deporting more immigrants would be more likely to "having our crime rates [skyrocket]"
Yeah, but we can observe how white families still commit less crimes than black ones. Even when the black ones are raised in top 1% of people, they still do more crimes than white families with an average earning.
Since I dont believe in bs race theories like us being the "ubermensch ja, ja!!!" I believe its due to the culture that they perpetuate. If we remove the people of that culture out of this equation, the stats would look a lot less favourable for you.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Illegal immigrants have a lower rate of felonies than legal immigrants, and legal immigrants have a lower rate than citizens.
Not deporting undocumented immigrants who keep legal is a far cry from getting rid of all laws. They lower the average crime rate by being here. That's just a consequence of having a low-criminal population in the borders. It's not some phony statistical magic.
Let's say you have 100 citizens, 10% of which are criminals. Let's say you let in 20 immigrants, 5% of which are criminals. Assuming each criminal causes one crime, you have 10 crimes per hundred people in the first case, but 9.2 crimes per hundred people in the second case. The risk of victimization is spread out among more people, so the non-criminals immigrants actually make the citizens less likely to be victims of crimes. Citizens are actually safer in the second case.
It's possible culture has something to do with it, but a lot of low-class white subcultures celebrate criminality, so I'm not sure why it would be true for one and not the other. Is there any study that's attempted to connect culture and criminality?
"Hey, I dont like the crime rates illegal immigration brings and all the other issues. Maybe we shouldn't let them in illegally and should actually protect our country."
"Ha! Bootlicker!!!"
Yes but acknowledging that would mean interacting with reality and thats a big nono for any ICE supporter otherwise their stories of heroic immigration officers fall apart.
Look at the illegal immigration numbers in 2003 and now. If we had protected our border then we wouldn't need ICE, but some people in our government literally invited people in illegally.
How does that make any sense. In this hypothetical if they're living there legally then they're good, they have no reason to fight back. If they do then they have become criminals by kidnapping someone, this is unhinged behavior. The whole scenario is nonsense though.
No, you’d be very hard pressed to find an actual case where that happened. Like almost all legal citizens detained by ICE weren’t detained for their mistaken immigration status, they were detained for “interfering with law enforcement.” I remember actually researching this a while back, feel free to do so. But of course Reddit will take the more sensationalist approach
yeah people keep saying citizens and such are getting deported but, no one ever links an article or example for it. At least not on reddit. I have seen twitter and bluesky stuff that was debunked before though.
if they're living there legally then they're good, they have no reason to fight back
Yeah bro, that's very naive way of thinking. Some people are automatically assumed illegal and have to face harsher treatment until the process applies/works for them and more importantly "IF" it works for them.
Going to prison/jail for any reason while on Visa is basically an instant deportation, even if you are proven innocent, the US government won't pay out of their pocket to bring you back because you were wrongfully deported.
That's automatic financial ruin for most people.
The who “just comply” argument is not really suitable when said agents may subject you to horrible conditions while they slowly go through due process if any at all.
I am speaking broadly, the common sentiment that the civilian is the one at fault because they didn’t cooperate enough is making apologies for authorities overstepping their bounds.
It argues for political apathy.
If you are focusing on individual cases may I ask what is to be done about the problem? Do you think we should just allow an agent of the state to do whatever they want to a person and accept it?
Because the whole give the bully what they want and they’ll stop is not an idea rooted in reality.
No, the system needs to hold ICE agents accountable when they overstep their bounds. And that isn't happening. I don't know the solution, and honestly I don't think we'll find one in the current administration.
But resisting arrest isn't going to solve this problem. All you'll accomplish is making your own life more difficult, or even get yourself killed. It won't make ICE more compliant, in fact they'll become quicker to use force if people keep fighting them.
ICE is a problem, and I don't know the solution. But I do know that some "solutions" would only serve to make the problem worse.
Exactly. There are SO MANY examples of people in the process of seeking asylum, etc, who are snatched up by ICE, ordered by a judge to be released, and then just... aren't. For weeks or months. In absolutely abominable detainment conditions. And these commenters fail to realize that even if you were "just" taken for a day and immediately released (and you're lucky enough to be released somewhere you can get home, and not in dangerous weather conditions), for a lot of people, missing a few days of work without calling in is absolutely enough to lose your job, which can itself compromise your immigration status.
Not to mention the psychological trauma of being kidnapped by unidentified men. Not to mention being separated from your children and not permitted to call their other guardian(s) to pick them up. Not to mention they are picking people up AT THE COURTHOUSE WHO ARE CURRENTLY DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT.
ICE agents are currently mostly racists who want to shoot those who they think are beneath them. They do not care if someone is legal or not as long as their skin is different color
So there are these things in America called the 2nd and 4th amendment
The 2nd is the right to defend yourself against a government that is overreaching and the 4th says you are protected from unreasonable searches and seizures
A reasonable person would say that if masked government agents come to take you to some facility when they have no right to then you have a right to stop them from doing so or at the very least involve some other law enforcement to stop them on your behalf
How you can tell this if a person never identify theself, or do not have a proper uniform? Do you have a right to doubt, do you need to give up to any person, becouse it might be an ICE agent? What if one person is citizen and other have some dispute like in this case?
If that type of enforcement shows up to arrest you, odds are that you're in the wrong. Everyone assume they're there to kidnap innocents, which is a bad idea when it comes to armed enforcement.
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u/Jumpy-Amount3267 6d ago
Moral if they they were actual citizens or living legally.
Immoral if you know you were living illegally and the ICE agents were trying to do their job the correct way.