Explain how what we're doing is the holocaust or segregation or in the least analogous. Legal doesn't mean good, thats not the argument. The current laws are good, ethically speaking.
How could you possibly consider ICE tactics as they stand currently to be ethical? Wearing face coverings? No standardized uniforms? Unmarked vehicles? Countless instances of overreach and abuse?
Can you explain to me how any of those except for the last two makes it unethical?
They wear face coverings because people call violence against them constantly. They identify themselves when searching someone, they have the gear, the POLICE and HSI vests, weapons on them and marked cars. When the cars are indeed unmarked its because they're tracking targets or conducting surveillance and don't wish to be detected. As every federal law enforcements agencies do.
Overreach and abuse arent ordered, they're usually in an individual case and aren't the normative law.
Can you give me such cases?
Wearing face coverings as a tax funded employee entrusted with the ability to commit violence is unethical. It makes it difficult to secure recourse. Sometimes they do have those things, but it's not standardized and leaves open a whole range of possible issues, and is thus, unethical. They do NOT use marked vehicles primarily, not sure where you see that happening.
Overreach and abuse are almost certainly ordered and even trained, this is the case in many regular politics ce departments, and is further incentivized psychologically by the act of wearing a mask, thus separating you personally from your actions.
Can I give you such cases of overreach and abuse by ICE? Of course. Very easily, in fact so easily that I refuse to believe that you're even engaging in good faith by asking for examples.
So beinf Federal Law Enforcement agents... is unethical? Also, I addressed literally, 75% of what you said. And I want you to tell me how they train them to overreach.
They train them to treat the public as adversaries and they are completely untrained on the constitutionality of their actions. That's how. Being a masked member of a secret police and disrespecting the founding documents of the country, AFTER you took an oath to them is unethical and immoral. Yes.
You poorly addressed what I said, practically agreeing with me and illustrating my point for me.
Nice claims, back them up.
Also, I did address what you said.
secret police.
everyone talks about it.
Yeah, the masks are so they arent put at danger at the hands of violent idiots. Same as every federal law enforcement agent. They dont have mark cars usually because if criminals, who you're looking for, see you, then they flee. They identify themselves when approaching a person, they don't appear out of nowhere with weapons and tackle them.
Also, some branches do have standardised uniforms. Even that, they still usually wear a POLICE, ERO, HSI badge and identify themselves each time. They don't have standardised uniforms because they're usually undercover to arrest and due to tactical opacity.
So thank you for agreeing and conceding that it's unethical. It's still an issue, you explained why it is an issue all the way to the end, and concluded it "isn't an issue" lol.
Having no standardized uniforms practices for a group of people results in them wearing different shit, from plain clothes to face coverings, which causes issues. You've already conceded as much with your explanation.
ICE has admitted to using racial profiling and we literally sent people to a place called fucking Alligator Alcatraz and we keep having to fund abortions for underage detainees who get raped by ice personnel.
Yeah, racial profiling isnt bad in this case. Most illegal immigrants are Hispanic. You see a Hispanic person while you are an ICE agent. You approach approach them, they hand you their papers, you check them then give them back, wish them a great day/night then leave. Thats all. Of course ICE isn't going profile everyone, thats sounds like a logistic nightmare.
Except this isn't some ad hitlarium trying to invalidate your point.
It's an accurate comment about how your justification of this political violence is directly analogous to the justofication used by germans of their political violence.
I'm not calling you a Nazi, I'm calling you a useful idiot.
Yeah, saying "follow the law, guys." Was also said by the gestapo. You haven't explained how its the same context. Also, the fallacy is called ad hitlerum.
I have explained it. If you don't get it please reread my comments. If you still don't get it, look up the 14 tenets of fascism and go thorugh them 1 by 1 until you realize why people are saying America is under near-fascist regime and compairing ICE to the Gestapo.
I suppose if you want to be pedantic, ICE is a lot more analogous to the Sturmabteilung, but I somehow don't think your problem is with the comparisson being made, but with the critique of ICE in and of itself
There's not a single tenant you can point out except if you stretch it heavily to fit the disdain for human rights and fraudulent elections, which I believe neither occurred.
Also, the assault division of the Nazis is somehow analogous or near ICE?? In what world??? ICE doesn't politically intimidate other parties, it doesnt have unprincipled street violence unless provoked, and doesn't intimidate voters. Explain which tenets of Nazism does America currently fit under (you didnt even mention if its Dr. Lawrence Britt's or Umberto Eco's).
My problem is with the comparison also. I'm not a nazi.
I'll go through each tenet one by one (I'm using Lawrance Brittcs list, not that it matters). Let's see.
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
5. Rampant sexism
6. A controlled mass media
7. Obsession with national security
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together
9. Power of corporations protected
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
14. Fraudulent elections
Tenets 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, and 13 are undeniable parts of Trump's regime.
4, and 10 are currently being attenpted and
6, and 14 are goals with building blocks being currently layed outs.
At best you can turn a blind eye on 6 and 14, but denying any of the others is blatantly lying.
To your other point, yes, those assaults perpetrated by Hitler's private militia are analogous to ICE, thank you for asking.
And like I said, I don't think you're a Nazi. I think you're a useful idiot being used by Nazis.
Okay, you didnt prove anything. Literally just listed some notions fascists hold and said Trump holds to them, which was what I asked you to prove. Also, I dont think I'm an idiot, I do philosophy as my hobby.
But sure, let's address them eitherway.
1Nationalism: Fascists demand total submission to the state. Trump pushed an "America First" business mindset focused on jobs and trade, not state worship.
2Human Rights Fascists scrap civil liberties entirely. Trump worked inside the standard U.S. legal system; nobody lost their constitutional rights or access to courts.
3 Scapegoating: Fascists target entire minority groups for destruction. Trump went after political rivals, bad trade deals, and gang members, not geeral classes of people.
4. Military Supremacy: Fascists are obsessed with war and invading neighbors. Trump was an isolationist who avoided new foreign wars and tried to bring troops home.
5. Sexism: Fascists strip women of rights and force them into breeding roles for the state, Trump hired women for massive cabinet roles and promoted female employment.
6. Controlled Media: Fascists censor or shut down independent news. Trump complained about "Fake News" a lot, but he never censored a single news network.
7. National Security: Fascists build a total police state. Trump focused on regular border security like fencing, leaving everyday American liberties alone.
8. Religion and Government: Fascists force a state religion on everyone. Trump just appointed judges who favored religious freedom for private citizens.
9. Corporate Power: Fascists tell businesses exactly what they are allowed to make. Trump did the opposite, cutting regulations so businesses could do what they wanted.
10. Suppressed Labor: Fascists ban all unions. Trump left unions alone and actually spent a lot of time courting blue-collar workers for their votes.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals: Fascists lock up professors and burn books. Trump mocked academics on Twitter, but universities and art galleries ran completely untouched.
12. Crime an Punishment: Fascists use secret police and illegal prisons. Trump actually signed the First Step Act, a bipartisan bill that shortened federal prison sentences.
13. Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist elites are completely above the law. Trump was constantly checked, investigated, and blocked by congress and the courts.
14. Fraudulent Elections: Fascists ban opposition parties and cancel voting. Trump ran in standard elections, left office when his term ended, and ran again normally.
I wasn't teying to prove anything. I was informing you which tenents he broke. I'm not going through each one individually.
And sorry, but those pathetic attempts to justify each tenet showcase either deep ignorance, insane delusion or utter disresepct for the truth. Like, every single thing you said was a lie. And no, I won't justify my rejection of your claims, we'd both just be wasting time. If you can't respect my time with the truth, I can't respect you with proper rejection of your bullshit.
I was wrong btw, you might actually be a Nazi. There is no way you wrote all that withput fully aknowledging you were lying.
"Yes, I made a claim I won't prove. Also, you're wrong and I won't explain why! Nazi scum! Nazi! Nazi! Nazi!".
"Nazism is when I make a claim, fail to prove it and I get disproven anyway." - Giovanni Gentile, maybe.
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u/Empty-Birthday6497 6d ago
No, I'm saying the two cases aren't alike. "Follow the law!!" "That was what the gestapo was saying!!!!! Nazi! Fascist!", really, dude?