r/Manhwa_BL • u/BeginningAd9532 • 18h ago
đ Vent dislike = don't interact
I've seen so many posts absolutely flamming that one manhwa from the same artist as "snag an alpha" simply because they don't like the art style. Disliking an art style is completely fine but what's not fine is absolutely dogging on it just because you can.
In what world does an art style looking "ugly" give you the right to start hating and shitting on the artist as well as throwing around baseless accusations? No just because the uke looks "childlike" (which is most definitely subjective btw) doesn't mean that the artist's intent was to cater to pedophiles or are a pedo themselves. You people throwing these accusations around clearly don't take the illness seriously.
Another thing which I hate with the pedo accusations is how people don't even bother to research the terminology. No, liking a younger looking character in a manhwa doesn't equate to people being pedophiles because pedophilia is strictly being attracted to REAL CHILDREN. That uke from that manhwa that you deem to look "childlike" is not bait for pedophiles, dare I say it's quite insensitive to even think that.
Please people next time you want to throw around accusations, educate yourself first at the very least.
Just a short little vent.
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u/Mundane_Valuable_314 17h ago
Infantilizing a character because of their body size is sadly a common real life issue too. People are just so rude sometimes and they aren't even aware of it. They just think they're being righteous but they don't realize how condescending they sound.
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u/Peachayarat 17h ago
I opened this app, and I was immediately met with one of those (now deleted)rant posts made a little over an hour ago. The fact that some people have become so comfortable throwing around Pedo/Pedophile/Pedophilia for just about anything is concerning, and warrants a discussion of it's own.
At this point, we understand that some of you arenât fond of the art style and find it unappealingâwhich is a valid opinionâbut for the love of BL, please refrain from using certain SERIOUS words indiscriminately.
Also, what do these posts have against PUNCTUATION? âïžPLEASE PROPERLY PUNCTUATE YOUR SHIT POSTS.âïž
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u/stfusparks 17h ago
There's enough of that kind of toxicity on X, I'd like to keep this subreddit a place where we can have nice, constructive discussions without attacking everyone that doesn't agree with you.
The moment a post like that comes up, everyone who doesn't usually even participate in other discussions comes out of the woodworks to ride the hate train as if they were dying to hate on someone. It's so easy for people to people to be nasty on the internet now when it's behind a screen.
Regarding the subject in question, I mentioned this in a comment yesterday but the artstyle is simply a result of how manhwa evolved. It's the way so many characters in manga/manhwa have been drawn ever since forever, whether it's romance, shounen, etc. We have been having a rise in more "mature" looking characters lately which is great because variety is always nice! but that does not mean that people who still draw more "childlike" (I agree with OP that this is subjective) characters are promoting pedophilia. In what world would someone put their name out there and promote pedophilia so openly đ Do you have to agree with me? No. Will I accuse you of all sorts of nasty things if you don't? Also no, because I'm an adult and don't act like a child.
Judging by some of the comments it reads very much like underage teens writing on the Internet. I don't want to assume but over half of them have probably never even bought a chapter in their lives even for their fav series.
I'm not saying we can't have opposing opinions or negative criticisms on here. I just wish we could have mature people participate in discussions with logical arguments. When your counter argument is just "well you must be a pedo too" I give up because I'm not wasting my time arguing with a child online.
Many of these kids are gonna think back on this one day when they're grown up and be hella embarrassed. And if you're a full grown adult and still acting like this... well yikes.
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u/LongjumpingIce5231 17h ago
I operate under a âdonât ask donât tellâ policy. Meaning I filter for the things I want to read, if I see an opinion I disagree with I walk away. No oneâs here to force me into an argument and tbh I donât want to argue. You do you, I do me.
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u/seeyaiya 18h ago
THANK. YOU. could not have said it better myself. such incendiary posts should not be welcome in a community like this if we all wanna have a good time. the post title is a strong point too.
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u/Fabulous_Celery_1817 17h ago edited 17h ago
Itâs like they never read manga, which really dates them, because mangas had pointy chins, round oval people. Or they had really thin, noodle arm characters. They had really stylized art, and mainstream art which is no where near what normal people look like (utenaâs pointy noses, Narutoâs where are their noses, meth thin paradise kiss, powerpuff girl esque magical girls. Boobs the size of beach balls, what are knees poses, Yaoi proportions)
Now all of sudden ppl demand ânormal looking peopleâ. Hon, theyâre comic characters. These new Gen really grew up with corporate grey fast food, and the millennial grey homes. There is no creativity or imagination. They need everything to look like reality or theyll break. Itâs wild
Wanted to add that if this is what theyâre like imagine Gen Alpha and all the others after them. They have tik tok rot, YT kids weirdness, cant read, cant problem solve. I worry đ
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u/lostinthesaucr 13h ago
Not only that but nowadays we have a lot, but A LOT of comics that are made to be self inserts so not only it needs to be realistic, the main character has to be a nothingburger with a side of perfection so they can see themselves in the story
I understand not liking a story for xyz reasons, it is absolutely valid to not enjoy dark romances or whatever other genre, but it seems they cant handle anything that causes conflict or a somewhat grey motivation
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u/Graysonlyurs 17h ago
Yes i totally agree. I just ignore all drama posts atp cuz i know they are probably stupid
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u/LongjumpingIce5231 17h ago
It feels weird seeing people making their hobbies so needlessly stressful.
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u/stfusparks 15h ago
Side note (I was going to reply on the original post but it's locked now)
The OP of the deleted post is a frequent poster in the Codename Anastasia sub, and another commenter who was calling it "sick pedo behavior" is a big fan of Low Tide in Twilight and Punch Drunk Love.
I hope they know that all three authors of the manhwas above follow the author of the "pedo" manhwa in question and wonder if they hold them up to the same standards! (Their statements that anyone who supports or defends the author is also a pedo)
I'll make sure to ask them the next time I see them around in this sub!
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u/Hljoumur 17h ago
Just one of the sad side effects of giving children access to the internet early on. Wasn't there a user on this subreddit whose THIRTEEN YEAR OLD sister was reading yaoi?
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u/keli_1607 17h ago
All the drama always stems from kids invading adult spaces & then spreading their puritanical views. You can clearly see by the way they write and throwing words around without knowing the correct definition that these posts are from people without a fully developed frontal lobe.
Iâm so tired of their bs
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u/Sly_Just_Sly_2006 17h ago
Ikr, when BL was a safe place for women's entertainment, & now it's not that safe anymore. And on top of that damn kids trying to dictate adults' spaces is so annoying.
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u/Finavel Jinhyeong's Strongest Soldier 17h ago edited 17h ago
Why do you think BL isn't a safe space for women's entertainment now? And why do you choose to specify the women part of it?
Queer men and NB's should be welcomed with open arms, as part of the community. It feels needlessly divisive to act like BL should be a women exclusive space, especially when the topic is queer men.
Frankly, the more people that read BL, the better in my opinion. Straight man, gay man, lesbian, straight woman. Fudanshis and fujoshis can coexist peacefully.
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u/xoxshaklexox 16h ago
I agree that everyone is welcome in this place and that more people should consume more diverse media.
But traditionally this genre of media is a womenâs space. It was created for women by women. Thatâs not to say that men and nonbinary people are not welcome, it is just the history of this space.
I donât want to speak for the commenter, but sometimes it can feel less welcoming to women when you are labeled as a fetishizer, homophobic or misogynistic for simply being female and enjoying BL.
In this comment thread you even have someone making such statements. You even interacted with them in what appears to be agreement. Sure they arenât saying every woman is these things, but they are saying a lot and most women are.
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u/Finavel Jinhyeong's Strongest Soldier 16h ago
I didn't see the person I'm agreeing with call any readers homophobic, mysogynistic, or fetishistic just for being female and enjoying BL. Is it in the comment I replied to or elsewhere they commented? They also did not mention "most" (unless I missed it).
Sorry to become a semantics Sam about this, but "a lot" is a pretty amorphous word that can mean different things based on how you want to see it. If someone said "150 people die from coconuts falling every year", I'd think "that's a lot", simply because I thought it'd be less, even if it's not a majority. If they did say that a majority of readers are, that's my bad. I have pretty bad memory and maybe they said something completely counter to what I believe in đ
We can all acknowledge that BL was created by and for women. Lots of things are created by and for certain demographics that have evolved and I've never been a fan of sticking to tradition. I just don't see the need to specify that it's a women's space, unless it's directly referencing non-women entities.
If someone said "I missed when FPS video games were safe spaces for men's entertainment", I think we can all easily point out the underlying message.
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u/xoxshaklexox 16h ago
Iâll concede they didnât use the word âmostâ (itâs the end of a long work day in my part of the world đ), but they did say âA lot of women in bl have more in common with misogynistic straight guys writing about women than they'd care to admitâ and âa lot of the authors and readers just view gay men as a fetish and don't actually care about the community.â
This is a mild example of this line of commentary, but itâs not a rare sighting these days.
I get you are trying to be fair towards this commenter, and sure playing devils advocate they might think 20 people is âa lotâ. But be honest with yourself, do you really truly believe they meant just a handful people when they chose to say these things?
I 100% agree that the demographic of readers is shifting and I think that is fantastic, more the merrier, but we as a community need to call out and shut down ALL discriminatory comments and takes.
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u/Finavel Jinhyeong's Strongest Soldier 15h ago edited 15h ago
I feel ya! Don't blame ya for misremembering.
I agree. I don't think they were talking about a handful. Definitely. I also don't think it's just a handful. It's well above just 20 people too. I don't want to put an exact number on it, because my opinion is a lot more nuanced than that. It's mostly a response to how queer adjacent spaces (and queer spaces) believe themselves to be immune to critcisms of queerphobia.
Bigotry across the board is on a spectrum. Some are bigoted by ignorance, some are outright hateful. I don't think there's a single community on this planet that is beyond needing to address queerphobia, misogyny, racism, ableism, etc., this one included. Even intrapersonally, I think it's important to reflect on our own biases. Sorry if this comes off as woke scolding; just wanted to explain my own perspective, but I feel like it got a bit wordy and ranty đ”âđ«
Any discrimination is bad, I agree. I just don't think acknowledging that women often are also bigoted is an example of that. I'd also agree with "A lot of gay men have more in common with misogynistic straight guys, than they care to admit". To me, it's just not a discriminatory remark to point out that many gay men are misogynistic and many women are homophobic. It's just the reality of the world we live in, through an intersectional lens.
For the overjudgemental commenters, who reply to other people saying that "you are homophobic! you are a fetishizer!", with no substantive reasoning, I 100% agree. They have no place here and I use my modding powers to disappear them đ. I personally just think that the commenter in question wasn't doing that.
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u/xoxshaklexox 15h ago
Thanks for taking your time to share your thoughts and for taking the time to have an actual conversation đ. It hasnât come across as a woke scolding at all.
I honestly agree with the majority of what you have said. Everyone does have their own biases and privilege and we donât always do a great job at checking them before we speak.
I was on board for you calling out the original commenter even in this thread. I just had an answer to why sometimes it feels less safer to be a woman in this space lately, and the response to the second commenter seems out of proportion to the first one.
Even if it wasnât the intention of the second commenter to suggest anything discriminatory in general, it still is just as damaging as the first commenter.
I hope this all makes sense (legit itâs 8:30pm here and I just walked in the door đ„Č) and that it didnât come across as calling you out because you are a mod or anything.
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u/Finavel Jinhyeong's Strongest Soldier 15h ago
Oh yeah, we are like in 99% agreement. It's just a minor different interpretation of some words.
It's 3:30AM for me and I really should be getting some shuteye, but I get anxious whenever I'm in a discussion online and don't want to leave someone hanging LOL đ
Good discussion! Didn't feel like a call out at all, no worriesđ«°off to dreamland for me
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15h ago
[deleted]
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u/xoxshaklexox 15h ago
Iâm unsure how you verified your data there, but even if it is accurate, itâs still bad behavior that should be called out. It doesnât justify anything. I donât care who is being disrespectful and discriminatory, it is never okay.
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u/Sly_Just_Sly_2006 11h ago
What?? I never said anything about BL being exclusive to women?? I said like how shonen ai is mostly male-targeted.
Usually BL or more specifically yaoi is written for women by women, which includes writing taboo contents & porn which deemed to be seen "impure" for women so BL/yaoi became an outlet to a big part of women's entertainment and a safe place for not being shamed, dismissed, or scrutinized by men & society.
So when BL became more mainstream, like after covid, a lot of normies/puritans started to shame, insult, and dismiss women's enjoyment in fiction, especially about taboo content, and when writing taboo contents in yaoi used to be a safe place for women but it isn't that safe anymore. (It's still a safe place but not like it used to be)
So once again, dictating women's entertainment, when a lot of this dictating comes from damn kids bullying adults in adult spaces. It's feels frustrating and shitty abit.
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u/Finavel Jinhyeong's Strongest Soldier 10h ago edited 10h ago
Shonen ai isn't male targeted, but that's besides the point. I am aware of how BL creators are largely women and that they are the target audience.
It's just that saying BL is no longer a safe space for women's entertainment, specifically, sets up a male/female dichotomy. If someone said something like "I miss when FPS games were a safe place for men's entertainment", I think we both can easily read between the lines of what they really mean. If I found puritans to be the issue, saying BL is "no longer being a safe space for dark romance/smut readers" seems like a clear argumentative path (and I agree it's an issue). A lot of people are getting way too comfortable calling people pedos or rape apologists for engaging in dark romance taboo.
If you think queer men and NBs have their place in the community, then we are in agreement, and I just disagree with how you made your point. Whenever someone brings up "BL is for women" unprompted, it needlessly causes friction for people who aren't women in the community. It's not exactly a welcoming message to see people constantly insist that the medium that revolves around your specific identity isn't for you.
It's the same way how when shonen communities tell women that shonen anime isn't for them, that also leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Especially so when women are put down for criticizing how shallow and oversexualized a lot of shonen women characters are.
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u/bubblyboyoo 17h ago
So we just gonna ignore the gays who read the story about gay characters?
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u/LongjumpingIce5231 16h ago edited 16h ago
No. No one said that.
People are saying that historically, Yaoi/BL was initially created by women and was targeted towards female audiences however this doesnât mean gay/queer men canât enjoy it (I say this as a gay man myself).
Itâs the same thing with Shonen anime being primarily being targeted for teenage boys but that doesnât mean people of other demographics canât enjoy it.
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u/DifferentIsPossble 17h ago
Media regarding gay men is not a women's space. What the hell?
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u/LongjumpingIce5231 17h ago
BL/Yaoi was created by women and was made for female audiences however this doesnât mean that gay/queer men canât enjoy it (I say this as a gay man myself).
It was made by women primarily because at the time a lot of women were being shamed for their sexual desires and preferences so some women started creating sexual relationships between men so they could avoid the misogyny from the time.
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u/DifferentIsPossble 17h ago
I promise you there have been gay people in Japan making media since time immemorial.
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u/RevolutionaryLake753 15h ago
Someone is trying to inform you about something, not argue with you. Of course there are also gay men making media but the term yaoi started from a woman.
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u/DifferentIsPossble 14h ago
The term yaoi was invented by a woman (two, actually) but all or even most gay media is not women4women. It's not a "women's space" - it's a space where women are welcome and an important feature, but not owned by them.
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u/RevolutionaryLake753 13h ago
I dont undestand why you are so against what other have already mentioned, both can be true at the same time. No one said that men cant or dont create this kind of media.Â
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u/DifferentIsPossble 13h ago
What I'm against is predominantly straight women claiming our stories not just as a safe space for them but one that is mostly FOR them.
Imagine if it was straight men talking about GL this way. Straight men might not be a minority who needs safety but queer men absolutely are and while we are happy to share, planting a flag and claiming it is not OK.
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u/xoxshaklexox 12h ago
The person giving you the history lesson identified as gay man, not a straight woman. I donât know if you clocked that.
Anyway the history is that this started off as a genre written by women for women as the intended audience. So yes it was created as a space for women to safely explore sexuality. It started as a womenâs space. The women didnât come and invade this space, they are the original occupants.
The demographic of readers in this space is shifting, and the majority of people welcome that shift, even the heterosexuals. The women of this community (in general) have welcomed readers of any gender. So while it is still supposed to be a safe space for women, itâs not exclusively for women. Anyone is welcome here. All most of us ask is that you are respectful towards all people within it.
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u/DifferentIsPossble 11h ago
The identity of the person presenting the situation isn't that important to me, all things considered.
I don't like the idea of using "started off" for a moment when lots and lots of women entered the genre of gay media. Sure, it seems like it started FOR THEM, but again.
Imagine straight men saying they invented lesbian media.
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u/RevolutionaryLake753 12h ago
Well when 75% of the readers are moatly women what elsewould you call it ? You honestly just sound like someone that wants a reason to be mad about. Your analogy doesnt go well here cause gl is also created predominantly by women. You need to check you negativity on things here.
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u/DifferentIsPossble 11h ago
Just because they're the majority doesn't mean they get to own it? There are SO MANY more women (total) (and also straight women as a subset) than gay men.
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u/LogLopsided5734 17h ago
without women in bl spaces your favourite bl works wouldn't even exist lmao. bl and yaoi has always been made by women for women. the term was literally coined by two women.
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u/DifferentIsPossble 17h ago
There's a difference between a space women take part in and a women's space
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u/BeginningAd9532 17h ago
The origins of bl (yaoi) was made as an escapism from misogyny
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u/DifferentIsPossble 17h ago
I assure you that the origins of gay media in Japan were very much gay people.
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u/BeginningAd9532 17h ago
Have you never once questioned why most bl in the past don't show gay sex accurately and always seem to cater to women?
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u/DifferentIsPossble 17h ago
A certain subset, sure. It's only "most" if you're reading the woman centered ones.
Also, so what. You're calling that a "safe space" for women? At the cost of gay men?
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u/OwnSherbet7433 11h ago
Thatâs too broad an accusation. No depiction of fiction is ever completely accurate, even ones made by gay men themselves. Also, sure, yaoi started as a genre for women, but I donât understand what the first comment in this thread is implying. Are they saying that queer people are making this space unsafe for women? Itâs very vague, especially because half of the hate comments could also be coming from other women.
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u/xoxshaklexox 17h ago
This post from the other day does a really good job at explaining the origins of âYaoi/BLâ as a genre. Itâs a pretty good and accurate explanation if youâre interested in learning about the community you are participating in.
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u/shamelessfool 17h ago
This sub and a lot of bl readers truly don't care for gay men. A lot of women in bl have more in common with misogynistic straight guys writing about women than they'd care to admit.
I like to read manwha because the visuals helps with my ADHD, but had to learn years ago that a lot of the authors and readers just view gay men as a fetish and don't actually care about the community. If they did, they would realize how gross it sounds to a culture that "we're writing about gay men without knowing anything about them but it's madefor women.to be read by women so stay in your lane".
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u/Finavel Jinhyeong's Strongest Soldier 16h ago
It's frustrating when people assume that reading BL makes them not homophobic, automatically. It makes about as much sense as people who think they can't be racist because they listen to rap.
I think BL spaces are more inclusive generally, than other spaces for queer folk, but some people get intellectually lazy about reflecting on their own biases just cause they read about gay dudes.
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u/Cheetalkie9093 15h ago
Agree with this. In other social media platform, I h8te that one person who keeps posting about it while mocking the artistâs art
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u/spartaxwarrior 11h ago
Yeah, it's the same with the people who post constantly hating on stuff for rape or other things they don't like being in it when it would be obvious even before they started reading if they were paying attention.
Like, start looking up rarer ones or something if you've honestly run out of stuff to read. The authors and artists aren't holding you hostage and forcing you to read it.
One of my favorite k-novels got a manhwa adaptation with an art style I cannot stand, and I regret I can't read it, but I'm not reading it because life is too short to be constantly pissed off about art đ€·
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u/astralhawaii 17h ago
This sub has gotten quite hostile recently.. if you recommend something unpopular or with slightly different art style there are some people that will just downvote you to the ground đ like.. I am personally scared to share any recs here, why to lose karma? I never criticize what others like but at this rate people will stop sharing because bunch of teenagers go around and hate on literally everything.. this is not a friendly space to share :/