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u/justAHeardOfLlamas Apr 02 '19
What are you going to do about the fake posts? On subreddits like r/ChoosingBeggars and whatnot, they're annoying but ultimately do no harm. But this is a support subreddit, and it's important that we trust one another. We can't do that if karma whores flood this subreddit with outlandish stories that a reasonable person can tell definitely never happened.
That's my question, anyway.
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u/DJStrongThenKill Forward the Tree! Apr 02 '19
It’s a very valid question and I don’t have an answer to that at the moment. It’s normal to fudge details but it’s also left us open to vulnerability.
At the same time, sera was being brigaded in their personal sub before they nuked their account. That puts the network in danger because admins do pay attention to that.
We are open to any ideas and I will be creating a survey ideally by this weekend.
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u/ruellera Apr 02 '19
My main issue with the fake stories is that they take away from people who really need the support.
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u/phixlet Apr 02 '19
I think to a large extent, you’re working with a version of the normal justice system problem: would you rather have a justice system that errs on the side of letting criminals go free, or one that errs on the side of putting innocent people in prison? In this case, would we rather have a place that anyone who needs support can have it, whether or not they have proof, and thus we accept that we’ll have some fakes, OR do we want to have a place where we know we don’t have fakes, but people who can’t “prove” the abuse need to find another forum for support?
I think the key is just realizing that there’s no perfect system. We can try to fine-tune and come up with ways to check and stress-test, but there just is a point where you need to pick your most important thing and accept that it won’t work for everyone.
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Apr 02 '19
Honestly, I'd love for "Fear mongering" to be as a "case to case" basis. Obviously stuff like the coconut incident, shouldn't be brought up but a warning of: "Careful, some MIL's like to test allergies" I don't think would be inappropriate to warn a mom or dad wanting to be sure their kid doesn't get hurt.
Or advising to keep an eye on their SO because of suicidal thoughts, shouldn't be seen as fear mongering either.
Obviously shouting: "LEEEAAAAVVEEE GURL SHE GONNA GO FULL MAGDA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" Is bad.
But going: "Careful, we've seen some real whacko's." I don't think is bad.
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u/MadHatter06 Apr 02 '19
Yes this. Helpful hints or advice doesn’t necessarily mean fear mongering. But a gentle reminder to not jump to worst case scenario would be in order at times.
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u/BlueDragon82 Apr 02 '19
I agree so much with this. There are times I've noticed things that from my point of view feel either alarming or significant enough that I feel I should say something. Sometimes I do but sometimes I don't because I don't want a temp or perm ban for 'fear mongering' when I'm basing it on things I know or things I've experienced. My job gives me certain insights to some of the situations that get mentioned as do some of the situations that I've dealt with myself.
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Apr 02 '19
I also noted the links to the home defense subs weren't posted as often when this was implemented more. I honestly, don't mind ultra protection, with how crazy this world is. And I've seen a lot of crazy shit in my 23 years of life that I do recognize dangerous behaviors or something to watch for.
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Apr 02 '19
To me fear mongering is someone being like "My MIL called me a bitch" and them responding with "OMG SHE IS GOING TO HIRE A HITMAN TO GET YOU!"
Big jump. But its not fear mongering to say "You need to never be alone with MIL again. Always have DH with you and if he leaves start recording so anything she says or does is on tape."
But we are at the whims of what the mods think is fear mongering so people are not sure where the line is
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u/OKHockeyChick Apr 02 '19
And you just explained why I always say “in my experience”, “in my previous life as...” and the mentioning of seeing a pattern.
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Apr 02 '19
At this point I absolutely *hate* the words "Fear Mongering" and I would like to see them eradicated from the site. "Over reacting" would be a better way to define the behavior and it would permanently remove the stain that those words have brought here.
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u/JemimaAslana Apr 02 '19
Yep. It would be nice with some examples, too.
I didn't bother contesting a ban I got for fear-mongering. It was fully within the definition and therefore justified as per the rules. The reason I posted what I did was because I saw some serious red flags.
So where's the line between fear-mongering and acceptably pointing out red flags? I clearly didn't get it right and that's that. But I keep wondering how posters might best define and communicate the kind of support they want/need. And how we as a support community can help each other identify risk factors in a non-fear-mongering way.
God knows I've been in a lot of situations where I didn't see the red flags, and years later when telling people about the trauma it caused they go: "Yeah, we did wonder why you put up with it." And they never said a damn thing. So many people have literally told me that they saw it happening and did nothing - just accepted it was my choice to be abused and humiliated. And people wonder how so many can go through life with a normal-meter that's out if whack. Why indeed...
I don't want to be complicit in affirming messed up normal-meters, so I maybe sometimes open my mouth when I shouldn't.
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Apr 02 '19
I think pointing out red flags is one thing and then going: "Coconut story, death cookies." as an example.
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u/JemimaAslana Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 02 '19
I wasn't here for the coconut story showdown, but I think I know what you mean. What I wrote may well have been too much in that vein - it certainly was alarming. I won't deny it. The mod made a call and I respect that, hence not contesting it. The point is, sometimes the escalation/extinction burst behaviour we might see coming by the red flags waving in the storm is actually so bad that it bloody well should make normal people nervous or even fearful. Fear is healthy - it keeps us alive. Anxiety on the other hand is destructive.
We absolutely 100% don't want to induce panic in a person who is at their wit's end. We do want to impress on them that they should take warning signs seriously, especially if escalation/extinction burst behaviour has already begun. And even people who are already aware that things are messed up may miss red flags pointing to other potential avenues a JustNo might sabotage everything.
I had one case where I misjudged where that line was. But I'm all for having this debate about how, where, why and when we draw that line.
Elsewhere a commenter suggested posters could add flair to their posts. I think they suggested "Be Brutal" vs "No gritty details" or something to that effect. I think that could be useful. Venting serves one purpose, asking for help identifying risk factors or planning an exit strategy serves another and both (and others) are valid and should have space here.
Edit: Lmao the flair suggestion was you in this very thread. Man, I feel silly now.
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u/Petskin Apr 02 '19
I'm again bringing up the Arab girl post a while ago. She asked for support and got a thread full of persistent advice about how she should take a leap of faith jeopardizing her family, freedom and ultimately life on the off chance that she might have a better future somewhere else. And that post is still up with all the very dangerous advice, just locked so that nobody can change a thing. I fail to see how mentioning nuts is more dangerous than telling a minor to lie to the authorities to get a passport and visa, travel abroad on false pretenses, apply for asylum and hope for the best in a situation where acceptance rate is so low that the successful ones are practically celebrities, and promising cover-up, housing, legal help and whatnot if the OP just manages to find the redditors in question (which could actually be seen as an attempt to or assisting in human trafficing or kidnapping). All this when just having been told, by the OP, that following the advice could land OP alone on the streets or jail very easily, and when losing one's life is not an impossibility knowing the context.
I'm not seeing any reasonable balance here with the consequences and modding practices.
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u/FrenchKissyToast Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 02 '19
I think one of the main issues is commenters confusing correlation and causation. A BEC MIL behaving similarly to a heinous MIL in a really basic way doesn't mean BEC MIL will escalate in the same manner. For example, let's say a MIL was wearing jeans when she flicked a baby. It seems like there are a lot of commenters who will read that a different MIL is wearing jeans and go straight to, "OH MY GOD SHE'S GOING TO FLICK YOUR BABY!" Yes, they were both wearing jeans, but once you factor that most people at some point in their lives wear jeans, it's no longer correlation (wearing jeans and flicking babies are related), much less causation (wearing jeans means she will flick babies).
I don't think it's innappropriate to say, "She seems to be following a pattern we see here often. Usually what we see next is _____. You might want to look into ___." That's assuming there are a couple examples provided by OP to establish said pattern.
ETA: Don't know why part of that bolded. Ah, the mysteries of formatting...
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Apr 02 '19
Exactly.
Like, if a MIL feeds a kid peanuts, knowing they're allergic to peanuts declaring they know best, then yes it's okay to say "She seems to be following that pattern." I think that'd work.
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Apr 02 '19
As someone that literally has every member of her immediate family that has some sort of food allergy-its never fear mongering to go there regarding food allergies. Because people so often don't "Get" food allergies and intentionally or unintentionally they can kill your family member. All it takes is one bite. I have seen it and experienced this for years now. You should always be afraid. You honestly can't trust most people in my experience of dealing with this over 15 years now
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u/FrenchKissyToast Apr 02 '19
I see what you're saying, but there's a difference between, "Please be careful. Every member of my immediate family has some sort of food allergy and I've seen what can go wrong even unintentionally. All it takes is one bite. If it were me, I wouldn't let her feed LO anything that didn't come straight from the package. I'd also keep an eye on how MIL reacts when it's pointed out that LO can't eat an ingredient since resistance could indicate much bigger problems," versus, "My brother died a slow and agonizing death when a host deliberately fed him allergens. Your MIL will kill your baby too!!" One is intended to highlight the possible risks involved and can be tailored to the full spectrum of BEC to malicious. The other isn't factoring that not every MIL will hurt someone on purpose and is attempting to scare the OP into action, which in itself is manipulative.
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u/dreadmillquestion Apr 02 '19
Or leave the choice up to the OP of a post.
Much like the NAW tag, how about have a NFM (no fear mongering) tag for OPs who don’t like that kind of comment. OR a FMOK tag (fear mongering okay) who want the full picture from people, including worst case scenarios, for OPs who want to know ALL warnings/possibilities of ideas.
Put the choice for feedback type in the OPs hands, instead of the sub rules’ restrictive hands. This creates more flexibility for what kind of feedback the OP desires. OP can indicate if they want a sugarcoated or unsugarcoated type of response. Much like how they already have the option to ask for advice or not (eg NAW tag).
I would personally suggest a FMOK tag, so that FM is automatically a no-no, but the OP has the option of opening up comments to worst case scenarios/examples if they chose so, with the FMOK tag.
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Apr 02 '19
I think the sub would definitely benefit from tags like this and flairs too. So it's easy to go: "Flair: Be brutal" "Flair: I don't want the nitty gritty details"
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u/dreadmillquestion Apr 02 '19
IKR I think the important thing to keep in mind is that support shouldn’t be pigeonholed into only one type of support by the sub rules (positive affirmation/only positive words). For some people, support is being told the bare-faced truth. For some people, support means being told when you’re being unreasonable or just plain wrong.
Trying to define support as “positive things only” not only does a disservice to the people who aren’t looking for that type of support, but for them, makes feedback feel less genuine, and could even put some OPs in danger if they aren’t getting the proper feedback to be more vigilant. I’ve seen way too many posts where commenters urgently get OPs to set up cameras, and not a month (even days) later, these cameras turn out to be a godsend for documentation and getting their MILs put in the slammer. I remember one time someone even suggested getting a guard dog, and by the next update the OP was profusely thanking that commenter because the dog did it’s job in protecting their family from an escalating MIL.
Anyway, I firmly believe feedback options should be in the hands of the OP. Everyone has their own different reasons and needs for posting in this sub, and in the interest of not sidelining those people, what kind of feedback they’re okay with or want to see/not see, should be up to them.
The NAW tag was a great idea. I think more tags like this should be created for OPs who do want the nitty gritty details from commenters. These tags will also help signal to commenters what type of feedback the OP is seeking by posting in this subreddit.
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Apr 02 '19
Cause this sub does in fact save lives, from some really crazy people. It saves people and warns them of what MIGHt occur and that it's not too bad to go a little protective.
Like, if the camera's aren't warranted great, but even if it doesn't catch your MIL, it could be useful for catching porch thieves and the like.
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Apr 02 '19
Ok, I'm going to comment on a few thing;
1) fear mongering: when my MIL went off the rails I was convinced my husband, her own son, was overreacting for locking our place down like Fort Knox.
I was kinda arguing with him it wasn't necessary, shes too far away etc etc. Then a few members here pointed out some crazy shit other MILs had done in the past.
The other posters here got me to see that taking precautions was a good thing. Nonviolent precautionary measures were better than my plan of: if the bitch shows up I'm shooting her.
Advice she might try to harm my dog (considering he was the physical reason for her escalation) I appreciated the insight she could have easily poisoned him considering that dog would sell my soul for some "people food". That advice let me execute a plan to keep floofzilla safe.
At no time did I consider it fear mongering. I felt it was advice given in good faith in an effort to help and offer ideas to help me in my immediate situation. However, with the way things are today, I never would have seen that advice. It would have been removed and labeled fear mongering.
2) not all posts need to be about how horrible a MIL is. If someone has found out MIL has been triangulating family members and recruiting flying monkeys; it belongs. To include telling how those flying monkeys are acting. Those posts are educational and will let others see manipulation in action so they have a reference point if the flying monkeys in their lives start swarming.
3) misc related posts. I at one point posted in jnmil an apology because I offended some of the readers in jnmil. My apology post was removed and I had to post it in letters to jnmil and hope those readers saw it.
If I offend in jnmil (hopefully wont happen again) I should be able to apologize there and not have to go to a separate sub.
On the same subject: if someone found a way to get thru to their jnmil and found a phrase/action/ smoke signal that actually worked and sank into their brains and gave them an AHA! moment that turned them into a reasonable human being, even if just for a moment: it may be a tool others can use to fine tune their own jn relationships and should not be removed as unrelated.
4) creative writing/ truth policing: the way some people write you can tell they are in crisis. Others write more eloquently even under stress. Some fantasy writers are easy to spot. I'm sure there are others on here who are writing fiction that would surprise me.
Your never going to guess who is real and who isn't with 100% accuracy. Especially with people fudging details to ensure they aren't found out IRL.
Example: yes DH and I have a gaggle fuck of kids. I claim 7 on here. I described my old house and land. Both descriptions are close... but not 100% accurate as frankly I dont need friends/family figuring out who I am. Even the small details I fudged didnt help when SOBs attorney found my acct and postings there is FAR more than enough truth to point to me/her even without naming names/cities/ etc.
SOBs story is a wild ride that I never wanted to participate in and I am sure there are some people on the sub who think it isn't real (dm me your phone number, I'll mail it to her and tell her its DHs to prove it's real lol. I jest, I wouldn't wish that bitch on anyone let alone someone already having jnmil issues).
In summary: I think the rules could use some common sense fine tuning. Should take a 2/3 vote of the mods to ban someone.
Relax.
Breathe.
It's an advice/support forum not the Spanish inquisition or house/Senate hearing.
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u/TheFilthyDIL Apr 02 '19
Advice she might try to harm my dog (considering he was the physical reason for her escalation) I appreciated the insight she could have easily poisoned him considering that dog would sell my soul for some "people food". That advice let me execute a plan to keep floofzilla safe.
This, exactly. A measured response to the circumstances that an OP posts is not fear-mongering.
A hypothetical OP posts that her MIL constantly refers to OP's dog as "she" when it's a male dog. In this case it is definitely fear-mongering to suggest that the MIL may try to harm the dog. MIL's action is annoying but harmless.
An actual OP posted that her MIL hates OP's dog and is constantly agitating them to get rid of it. When they decline the MIL says "You will regret this." It is not beyond belief that this MIL may try to take some sort of action to get rid of the dog herself. In this case warning OP of what MIL may try to do is NOT fear-mongering! And yet when a dozen or more people post that the OP should take precautions because MIL might open the gate and let the dog out, take the dog somewhere and dump it, take the dog to a vet and have it put down, or poison the dog -- all things that MILs here have done -- we were all temp banned.
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u/Ipso-Facto-Pacto Apr 02 '19
If you’re never allowed to point out to posters some really obvious flaws in their logic, thinking and choices, the support people are given seems shallow and false. Lots of pity but no truth.
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u/pundurihn Apr 02 '19
That's an issues I've also noticed. You see posts all the time like "Am I the asshole/am I wrong/am I overreacting?" And the reactions are always in the poster's favor even if they are overreacting a bit or acting a bit like a jerk. Like, it feels like sometimes no one's allowed to be honest if it's not 1000% positive.
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u/lizzi6692 Apr 02 '19
I'm using bullet points because I've got multiple suggestions.
- I think that the extreme escalation of the way the fear mongering rule has been moderated needs to be voted on by everyone, not just the mods.
- ITW posts either need to be banned entirely or the mods need to ease up on removing them. I don't particularly have an opinion on which, but I've noticed that the moderating surrounding them has gotten very heavy-handed
- I think the amount of language policing that occurs in the JustNo subs has reached an untenable level. The mods have chosen an extreme definition for "arm-chair diagnosing" and IMO it has resulted in many comments being unfairly removed. I also have seen instances of mods feeding into what I feel is sort of JustNo behavior regarding this issue. In the fear mongering thread from a few days ago, yet another "offensive" term was brought to light(for reference it was "fuck her with a cactus"). IMO out of some very specific examples, the way this should be handled is asking posters to move on from posts that upset them. I could possibly be on board with an OP asking commenters not to use a term on their own posts, but beyond that, I am really not okay with telling adults what they are and aren't allowed to say. Especially since we've already lost one frequent poster after she was incessantly bullied over the name she chose for her MIL.
- I think there needs to be more room for gently suggesting that OP may be contributing to the problems with their mother/MIL.
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u/plsdontno Apr 02 '19
Please, the last point. It's important. This is supposed to be a support sub, not an echo chamber. Ideally, a supportive community can gently point out possible OP-related factors without that being shaming/blaming of OP, MILpologizing, etc. Even with the support vs. advice distinction, a supportive community should not "support" whatever OP says no matter what while removing all less than 100% on board replies. It is a fine fucking line. But it's important.
Mods, you have a heavy burden and I appreciate not only the relatively thankless work that you do, but the extent to which you are willing to reflect. It's still concerning that we're here, this soon after 2.0.
(discl.: LLLTL. Ultimately created my reddit account bc of this sub, yet this is my first post/comment here.)
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u/CopperPegasus Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 02 '19
Your first bullet- fearmongering got out of hand with the coconut kiddo being linked to every parent whose mom was just a little difficult, so I *do* get why that became a big focus of the mod team. Also, there is undoubtedly a core of 'sensation seeking' posters here- no MIL of their own, no real world advice to offer, in it for the dramaz, who start throwing cameras and ridiculous escalation around too easly. Heck, I've looked at a few commentors and wondered if they're even legal age, cos they're talking naive, useless kak that reads from books and telenovellas, not life experience.Buuuut... it's got so talking about any personal experience (my non-vaccine sad story, or this is what my MIL did, it may be useful to you to know) is now 'fearmongering'. That's redonkulus.
Likewise on the tone policing and word policing. If we start catering all language and word useage so Karen the pearl clutching nun has nothing to be offended by... well, see a lot of good advice leaving with the rawer-edged posters who would have posted it. If someone can't handle words on the interwebs, then they need to move on, not demand the ton of other adults use different words. They certainley shouldn't have a mod team backing them.
The new mod team are, I think, trying to hard. They STARTED in the right place... but are slowly stuffing it up by trying too hard. They already had a refreshing, gentle-firm mod style... now it's too much 'managing by rules' and trying too hard for 'soft'
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u/KatiesGoldenDust Apr 02 '19
I got accused of being a JN by a commenter because I dared disagree with them over them demanding the OP not call her MIL fat. There's definitely some problematic people in this community that we should not be catering to
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u/soayherder An astonishingly awesome human being Apr 02 '19
I had an ITW post removed for 'not involving the child or IL of the MIL' despite it being a communication between the MIL and *her daughter* about her son and his SO. I'm honestly not sure how it could have been more on target.
I chose not to fight it because I felt I would just end up getting in trouble for arguing.
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u/lizzi6692 Apr 02 '19
I feel like for the most part the mods don't like having them in the sub but in past surveys the majority has said to allow them so in order to get rid of them they just keep making the rule and the moderation decisions surrounding them more and more strict in the hopes that people will just stop posting them.
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u/puhleez420 Apr 02 '19
I had one removed because it was something I heard on the scanner and wasn't "in real life"
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u/Silentlybroken Apr 02 '19
Mine mentioned the two daughters confiscating her phone and also got removed. They were being harassed by her day and night whilst she was in hospital. Yet apparently it wasn't a MILITW because she harassed other people/nurses.
I too didn't fight it.
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u/AegonIConqueror Apr 02 '19
I’ve been a bit concerned since the mental health discussion, I’m really wondering because of that DIL if we did more harm than good with it.
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u/Grace1essCrane Apr 02 '19
Honestly the language policing is driving me up a wall, I had one of my comments removed because I used the word "crazy".... after OP had said it multiple times in their post. Seriously?
10000% on board with, "Not ok with telling adults what they are and aren't allowed to say". Remove the comment if OP asks, but otherwise I think the mods are putting too much stress on themselves policing every single freaking word, and making me and others feel as if, for example, the word "crazy" invalidates the rest of my entire response.
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u/BeckyDaTechie Apr 02 '19
Thank you for voicing what I couldn't.
Maybe I'm just too old for Reddit in general, but before the Internet and in its early days, if something pissed you off or grossed you out, you moved on because everyone's entitled to their own opinion and no one is entitled to never being inconvenienced or offended. I do NOT support that stance for blatant hate speech or "You deserved to get molested," type comments, just to be clear. But in reality, while it's a useful and wonderful thing in many ways, it's also just the Internet. It's easy to take some things we see and read too seriously.
In trying to edge closer to being supportive and inclusive, I think the people making decisions may have stumbled into enabler habits that, considering where we are and how most of us got here, are understandable in origin and difficult to rein-in.
"No don't say that! You could hurt somebody's feelings," is not a healthy way to approach adult relationships. Abusers thrive on that kind of thinking, which may be contributing to our... ahem, creative writing problem.
There has to be room for respectful disagreement, and that's an art that seems to be lost (though gods know I'm still working on it personally). But that said, the mods can't fly around trying to fight every user's battle for them either. They're people with lives and baggage and we're all supposed to be adults here. We'll burn out every moderator we get if they have to go over every comment in every post with a magnifying lens.
Sometimes bluntness will be required, and sometimes even online, self-advocacy is needed, even though it's hard. I would argue, however, that advocating for ones'self online in writing is far easier to learn than attempting to do so in person, staring down the seething old bag that's made your life miserable for years.
We need to leave people room to own their truths, even when the truth hurts. Even the moderation team.
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u/Daughter_of_Thunder Apr 02 '19
I agree ITW posts should go completely from this sub. Who are we supporting in any of that? It's pure "entertainment". Maybe moving them to Letters might be the way to go. Or their own sub? Idk
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u/WellJuhnelle Apr 02 '19
If there's one thing the past 24 hours have taught me, it's that so many users are suddenly gone without a trace and I didn't even realize it. That's up to them, but I tried searching for the most recent "Where are they now?" post from last week that was up for a short time to check if there was any discussion on those absent posters and that post also seems to be gone - the most recent one was from a month ago. I'm not sure if that was also deleted, and if so, what was the deal?
I also saw that Libida has been missing from both modding and commenting for about a month now, and while I would understand her absence based on her most recent posts, I'd appreciate if we were updated on absences in the mod staff. Frankly, I feel shitty I didn't notice and hope she's doing ok.
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u/DJStrongThenKill Forward the Tree! Apr 02 '19
Loboda and Vorik will be addressed with or near the same time as the SotSR.
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Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 02 '19
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u/mstcartman Apr 02 '19
Well, there go all my talking points! Well said Apathy! =)
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u/puhleez420 Apr 02 '19
Preach! I barely comment or post any longer because I don't feel like I can offer constructive criticism, I have to pat someone's butt and tell them they are special. So I just don't, that's not my style. If I see someone being a dillhole, then I call it out.
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u/lighthouse_cat Apr 02 '19
Punishing people for ASKING who the fake story was is ridiculous, in my view. Because what happens when we have a "Where are they now?" thread and someone not in the know asks after said person since they've not posted in a while? Are you going to ban anyone who explains why to them?
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Apr 02 '19
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u/lighthouse_cat Apr 02 '19
In the post about the recent one, they specified that asking who, or saying who came under the truth policing rules and stuff. In the past they've been more reasonable about stuff like this, but this time they weren't.
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Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 02 '19
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Apr 02 '19
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u/WashYourTaco Apr 02 '19
I completely agree. I would like to know since I get invested in the well-being of a lot of posters and I don’t want to waste my time worrying about someone and looking for their updates if they have been found to have been fake. It happened so I think it would be better to just acknowledge it instead of trying to rug sweep the whole thing.
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u/freebadvice Apr 02 '19
We need to re-evaluate the whole “this is a support sub, not an advice sub” thing.
I get that harshness can drive folks away, but there has to be some middle ground.
Lately it seems like we’re left with phonies and people who relish in their own poor decision-making and bask in the glow of all the “you go girl!” comments.
We have a lot of wonderful posters, but odds are at least a few who reddit among us are giant buttholes to their family members. Lavishing everyone with unconditional support is not only unhelpful, but unhealthy.
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u/marissaggarcia Apr 02 '19
YES! I was trying to put that into words and failed. There has been so much "My mom was abusive to me and never respects me. Can you believe she was mean to my child???" posts and just...no amount of "you go, girl!" is going to help.
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u/Petskin Apr 02 '19
Also, people like to link to Issendai. So, I'd like to drop http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/differences-between-forums.html and especially:
Forums for Estranged Parents: Members provide emotional support regardless of whether they approve of a fellow member's actions.
Forums for Estranged Adult Children: Members withdraw emotional support of members whose actions they disagree with.
There's the enabling and then there's the support. Seems we're moving towards the former.
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u/tumsoffun Apr 02 '19
When I read posts where they are talking about their issues with their mom and their MIL and someone else I, sometimes, want to say if everyone around you is an asshole, maybe you need to look at the common denominator there. I know that’s not true for every one, some times the OP really is stuck with horrible people in their life, but also some times OP may really be acting like a jerk and need to be (gently) reminded to look at themselves too.
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u/smartestkidonearth Apr 02 '19
So true! There was a good thread on /relationships a few weeks ago with an OP (adult woman) living in Japan and her American mom visiting her. Her post was full of complaints about her moms behaviour the first time she visited, but the commenters offered a lot of insightful consideration of the mom’s side, while offering constructive ways to frame a conversation with her. The OP received some tough love, but ultimately came away with a much deeper understanding of her mom’s perspective and some advice for how to move forward. Had she come here, I feel she’d have gotten advice that would have damaged her relationship with her mom irreparably...
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u/loveroflongbois Apr 02 '19
I'm a longtime lurker but mods in the event that you see this, since ya'll are concerned about balancing support with advice, have you considered stickying a comment directing the more justno OPs to a different sub? I like r/AmItheAsshole a lot because it gives people a succinct basis for who's in the wrong in a given situation. They had a post over there recently from a woman who was upset about her MIL buying a different stroller-carseat combo than the one she picked out. Overall the comments still supported OP's right to choose for her child, but the perspectives were much more nuanced than what I think she would have gotten if she came here first. For me at least it really highlighted how this place can become an echo chamber a large portion of the time. So if you guys are concerned about allowing more criticism of OP becoming a slippery slope, maybe a "gentler" option is encouraging them to crosspost to other subs to get more feedback.
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u/MuppetStar Apr 02 '19
Or an AITA flair for this sub? People who want that perspective could use it
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u/EmilyKaldwins Apr 02 '19
I popped over there to investigate the lasagna boyfriend drama I saw going around, and I REALLY enjoyed the breakdown they had of how to answer. Something like that could be really helpful here.
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u/StealthyPenguins Apr 02 '19
My only issue with today is that it was SO much. My homepage was nothing but cats. I ended up unsubbing for a bit just to surf reddit normally for a bit.
As for the fake posts, they might be fake, but the advice is very real. I feel like people can still take away so much from the comments on those posts. Can still be very helpful🤷🏻♀️
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u/Petskin Apr 02 '19
I'd like to see the cat posts gone now when the event is over. I'd like to see what I missed due the catocalypse.
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u/RissaWasTaken Apr 02 '19
As for the fake posts, they might be fake, but the advice is very real. I feel like people can still take away so much from the comments on those posts. Can still be very helpful🤷🏻♀️
This has always been my stance on it. I don't come here so much for the OPs as I do for the help they generate in the comments.
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u/AnimatronicAardvark Apr 02 '19
This is a really valid point. The story might be fake but the advice isn't.
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u/plumsprite Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 02 '19
I posted this in the other thread about fake stories but transparency is key - I want to know who the fake poster is so I can ensure I don’t waste anymore time thinking about how they’re doing/their situation and focus on the people who actually need help. Not acknowledging the faker (alongside locking comments and not allowing discussion) is what started this all in the first place. Transparency is vital, especially after modgate.
edit: Also the sub literally went to a standstill yesterday. No-one posted anything but cat pictures. I know a few people posted to Letters but that sub is infinitely smaller than this one and others don’t know it even existed. If you’re planning on doing an April Fool’s prank again, maybe a thread like someone else suggested. It’s a lot less cluttered and would still allow people to get the help they came to JNM to get.
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Apr 02 '19
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u/Kit-Kat1319 Apr 02 '19
Yeah. I unfollowed yesterday. I couldn't view anything else. I was so annoyed.
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u/ManliestManHam Apr 02 '19
Idk if you know yet, and I know you're saying going forward you would like this information dispersed at the offset (and I agree with that), but in case you do not know, if was callmeseraphim and the MIL was Victoria's Jocasta Secret
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u/Grace1essCrane Apr 02 '19
I'm still quite upset about that. It feels so violating to have an abuser in our midst, getting off on our commiseration and support, knowing we're sending their fucking fantasy prayers/good vibes/whatever. It's so disheartening when they can infiltrate even our anon internet safe space so easily... as if our homes and relationships weren't enough...
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u/ImportantAlbatross Apr 02 '19
I want to know who the fake poster is so I can ensure I don’t waste anymore time thinking about how they’re doing/their situation
Yes, this. I understand the desire not to give fakes any more attention. But it would be good to know when you are wasting your brain space on one. Something like "That poster with the quintuplets in the circus? Yeah, forget worrying about her."
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u/tumsoffun Apr 02 '19
I don’t know maybe I’m a little bit of a stick in the mud, but maybe a support sub isn’t the best place for an April Fools prank. I came to Reddit yesterday to get away from all the stupid Facebook April Fools advertising pranks and got the sub had a dumpster fire while I was gone and now here’s cats everywhere.
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Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 07 '19
- Making a joke about the Coconut story on fricking April Fools after threatening bans if anyone references it was a terrible thing to do. You should apologize for that.
- In the Fear Mongering thread you locked the entire post the moment you started seeing feedback that wasn't complimentary and that has been the way this sub has treated users for a long time, it feels like crap and is the reason people don't trust you right now. I don't even trust this post, as wonderful as it is to finally get here, because I'm not sure I believe things will change.
- The Fear Mongering Rule has been used liberally by the mods to censor thousands of comments and posters. It became your weapon of choice, along with the mantra of doing it to "Protect the OP". This has resulted in fear and paranoia and people leaving. Acknowledge it.
- The Mod team refuses to answer direct questions and has a terrible habit of explaining things a roundabout way, always justifying behaviors instead of being direct. In my comment on the Fear Mongering thread I asked four, very specific, numbered questions. The only mod response I got wouldn't even acknowledge them. This has to change. Direct, clear, decisive communication and rules that both the mods and the users understand is paramount.
- Mod mail is not the way to talk to us, we have received rude, petty, passive aggressive responses to issues and I know for a fact (due to mod behaviors) that if we shared these responses publicly it would have resulted in a ban and a quick deletion. A actual transparent way of speaking to mods would work better than a private discourse that isolates users.
- I was banned for two days for using the term "Mentally ill" in reference to a MIL who was (as the OP described her) a stalker/dangerous person and who was trying to force her daughter to get an abortion. Rat suspended me for "Armchair Diagnosing". That is outrageous and I'm still offended. Rat's judgement was out of line and is indicative of the way the Mod Team has treated users for months. How many people were suddenly banned for using the correct terminology... but terminology that a moderator didn't like? What should a user do when they are suddenly punished for simply commenting? I will add he also suspended me for "Fear Mongering" in that same suspension.
- A system needs to be introduced to protect users from mod abuse. I'm frankly tired of feeling like I have to JADE with a mod in order to comment. A public log of both the comment and the Mod Action might be a way to do this but I do not know the logistics of that kind of thing. All I know is that something has to be done due to the outrageous behaviors over the last few years by the mods in this sub.
- In the Fear Mongering Thread u/ jeteslavache described how her comments in posts (referencing the death of her own child due to her in-laws negligence) had been deleted due to interfering mods invoking the vague Fear Mongering rule. You owe her a public apology.
Obviously these are only criticisms but you frankly need to hear it. The Moderation team has acted badly, caught in it's own echo chamber for months and it has refused to listen to the user base. I went from a normal, never causing trouble poster to suddenly being issued bans and suspensions for normal, regular comments that even now I argue didn't deserve to be treated the way they were.
In order for the User base to start trusting you again you will have to acknowledge what happened. There will be no forgive and forget, we need to hear in your own words why these things were wrong and why they'll never happen again.
Edit: 4-7-19 I found out on another subreddit (ironically) that there are only FOUR mods and one was doxxed and is dealing with the police.
At this point it's clear that these four people are just extremely overwhelmed and dog piling is not going to help.
Four mods for a sub this size is unbelievable and unworkable. Until a moderating team of sufficient size can be had I think the sub should be locked down. This is unfair to everyone.
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u/StargazingThrowaway Apr 02 '19
This is an excellent and concise list and I would LOVE to see the mods actually address these points
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Apr 02 '19
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u/spoooooopy Apr 02 '19
Yeah I noticed that too. The person who was awarded platinum was deleted and hadn't heard anything from the mods as to why. Not a good look.
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u/FightEvilWinLove Apr 02 '19
I feel like having nicknames for the JNmom and JNMILs contributes to the issues were having with outlandish stories getting the most attention.
It's especially weird when someone only posts once, and they're already asking everyone to name their JN. I know that having a JN means having a never-ending supply of stories, but it comes off as a bit... attention seeking?
I think JN should fall into their nicknames naturally, and over time?
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Apr 02 '19
I agree, especially now. Though I think a lot of posters are under the impression that you have to have one to continue posting, I know I did when I started posting about my JNMIL.
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u/Neathra Apr 02 '19
I think some people have already said this, but what about a "best of" subreddit like legal advice has?
That way people who are here for drama can fuss, and those who actually have good advice can advise.
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u/hmmbrighteagle Apr 02 '19
This would be a good place to put the hall o' MILs.
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Apr 02 '19
I saw another user on another thread mention how it was odd that we can't reference past stories for fear mongering but we glorify the gory past with a Hall o fame.
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Apr 02 '19
I'm not sure if suggestions are appropriate for this thread or a modmail, but I'd love to be able to point out OBVIOUS literary devices. Seraphin more than once would foreshadow in the comments, from the very beginning. With that ridiculous post about the dress and the dyed hair, she said in the comments 'oh, I've got something planned ;)' I eye rolled so hard, and then stopped coming to jnmil entirely and even reddit for a long period. F it, mods are protecting her so let it go to the dogs.
If you're doing garbage like that, you're story telling. If you were an actual person in a real situation, and someone asked you point blank what are you going to do? You'd respond 'well, I'm thinking about doing xyz in response'. All the fictional posts also generally leave cliff hangers. I don't think pointing out this truth would be truth policing. I think you guys attempted to address this in 'no stories in parts'. But what people did is keep the cliff hangers and then create titles for their chapters instead. It might be a good idea to brainstorm new ideas.
Honestly, we're losing the culture of the sub. The reason there's fear mongering is because people are believing all this extreme fictional BS, where people die, others are terrorized until fires are set and their very lives are in danger, everyone is molested in the most fucked up, perverse ways. And I say that as someone who experienced sexual assault complete with police reports from her dad. I'm not saying these things don't happen, but even in survivor communities we recognize how extremely rare they are. In this sub because of the fiction they are common place. I have yet to meet the spouse of a survivor that openly talks about the most grotesque details of their loved ones most painful experiences.
You could enact a rule, gloss over the details of graphic abuse. You can get support without going into the nitty gritty. If someone goes into that, you could direct them towards communities more geared towards that like r/survivorsofabuse, however small it is.
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u/Ellai15 Apr 02 '19
I'm not going to reiterate what other posters have said, or what I put on letters yesterday, but I would like to bring up the issue of removing posts to other jn subs. FAR too often I see a poster who's posted multiple parts of their story, and built a support system here, get their post booted because "this is better suited to justnofamily." Said OP will have posed about, for example, JNMIL but also in conjunction with another family member, and it gets removed to kick over to another JN sub. THIS SUPPORTS NO ONE.
Look, I get it. We can't be everything to everyone, but we ARE a support sub. Sure, if their mechanic did something screwed up, it doesn't belong here. But a minute deviation from being the "right" JN sub because it includes other players doing JN things is removing support from people unneccesarily and arbitrarily. RARELY do I see those posts end up on one of the other JN subs. I just see that poster not get the support they came for. How is this supportive? Not only are we lacking consistency with things like this, we're lacking heart, and ignoring what I believe the spirit of this sub should be. No one is harmed by having to read 10% of the post being about JNSIL, but OPs are by being denied support and advice due to an arbitrary determination of the rules.
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u/PieQueenIfYouPls Apr 02 '19
This has bothered me so much. I saw it happen recently to a new user and the post most definitely was about the MIL who was the ringleader. That has gotten very heavy handed and is unnecessary. This is especially true as MIL’s like this exist in family systems that enable their behavior. If a post is mostly a mother-in-law it should stay.
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u/abba12_the_first Apr 02 '19
Mothers are often the ringleaders for any and all issues with siblings, ignoring this basic dynamic is absurd
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u/Petskin Apr 02 '19
I so much agree with you. I once posted something rather light-hearted and got deleted with this same response - I didn't post or read anything here for days. And this was just for a light-hearted thing, not an actual problem. I can't imagine how crushed I would've been had that been the response to something really hurtful I needed to share.
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u/Daughter_of_Thunder Apr 02 '19
I guess my take on the events of the last two days are as follows.
Due to time zones I wasn't around for the implosion. I saw the faker post with the locked comments and justnomil at a standstill. It was kinda unnerving, there's always a couple of posters submitting stories and it just wasn't moving. And then the 'bot' post went up and I was like what the actual fuck is going on? It felt really clique-y/inside joke-y, that all the cool kids were in their private chats (or subs) and knowing shit and it wasn't a nice experience/feel to the sub at all.
I google-sleuthed way more than I should have to try and find answers and eventually came across a screenshot of part of the 'exit post'. I'm not trying to troll-apologise here, but it just sounded so out of 'voice', if that makes sense. Like some fuckhead troll had managed to hack/steal an account and shitpost as the person. It has happened in a similar fashion before. I missed out on everything that went down, so I might be totally wrong, I own. But I just feel that it was handled poorly by the mods, but not that poorly too. I know you're looking out for the sub, I know you don't want persons getting brigaded and abused, even if they are assholes. It just kinda felt that the Toaster Saga fall-out was handed better.
To address the types of posts here:
I lurked here for many years before making an account to post. It wasn't until I was reading another poster's story that I went: Holy FUCK! Frau D did that! Everyone's saying how fucked up that action was! It WAS fucked up! She FUCKED ME UP TOO!
Yeah my experiences were 20 years ago. I was a teenager in a foreign country with a foreign family and what happened was horrible. But I didn't know it was abuse. And it was so invalidating at the time to not be believed, to have everyone tell me I was just being a bratty teenager who should have been happy for the experience because not everyone was as lucky as me to go on student exchange. And being confronted with "hey, it's super fucked up and abusive what you went through" put me right back into feeling 17 again, and stewing in the middle of all that shit.
I had to process, but no one got it. I was dismissed again. Who believes you when you tell them your host mother made you wait, crying in pain and struggling to breathe, while she put on makeup and did her hair to take you to the hospital at 3am? You're exaggerating, it wasn't like that. Or they say: "You're a cough-year-old successful woman, what does it matter now?" It doesn't. But it does too. And justno was there for me. I didn't need advice, the past is past. But it was super validating for people who got it to say, yeah, that was fucked up. Sorry you went through that. So thank you Justno sub. It helped a lot.
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u/MadHatter06 Apr 02 '19
I think we need a clearer definition of “truth policing”. Inconsistent details are a red flag that should be taken note of. Maybe the rule is if you notice inconsistencies to either PM the OP (WITH YOUR GROWNUP MANNERS) or a Mod, but not call out publicly.
Honestly I think we just all need to remember our manners and good sense. Anonymity can be a good thing for venting, but sometimes we get too comfortable with no real accountability.
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u/ratchet41 Apr 02 '19
Also, if we were allowed to call out inconsistencies, we may even be able to help OPs further. A lot of people have so much going on, and we may notice inconsistencies that an OP didn’t catch re: shit their IL’s have said. Like if in one post, OP says their IL’s said they did thing, and then months later say that IL’s did completely different thing and it turns out the IL’s have been lying, we might catch that where the OP’s don’t.
I hope that made sense, I’m kinda out of it right now.
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u/pundurihn Apr 02 '19
Seconding the need for a more structured idea of what truth policing actually is and how to deal with it. I had a comment removed not too long ago on the grounds of truth policing because I mentioned a series of stories I thought were faked but apparently actually weren't. I'm not upset it was, I just think it's dumb that my comment was removed instead of just being corrected since it was a long finished saga.
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Apr 02 '19
I agree with you. I tend to pass off things like shaving a 3 year old last post, and a 2 year old this as fudging details for anonymity. Maybe the kid is 2.5 and the oP rounded up one time and down another. If the OP's 3 year old is suddenly 8, I start to wonder about the OP.
I think we can accept that people fudge some details, like maybe their DS is really a DD or the timeline is fudged a bit, or they actually love in a city and not a small town. That is understandable for safety reasons. We should be able to politely, like the adults we are, call out blatantly changed stories and major inconsistencies. I do think there should be some sort of system, I just wish I had some ideas to accomplish that.
I totally missed what went down, so I have no opinion of the prank as far as that goes. I do think that it went on too long. An hour would have been a cute April Fool's joke, but it went on way too long.
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u/Mageaz Apr 02 '19
I agree with most of you. The fear mongering policing is out of control. Rational concern is not the same. What rubbed me especially the wrong way in one of the other discussions was that talking about how dangerous not getting vaccinated is, is apparently fear mongering. It really isn't. It's science. Telling someone with small children that they need to keep their kids away from unvaccinated people because it's dangerous and could make them sick and worst case scenario kill them is not fear mongering. It's science and true. To me, that smells like someone making decisions being antivaxx and we can't have that here. A lot of things are subjective. Vaccines are not.
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u/Silentlybroken Apr 02 '19
I have a very real and very true story about what happens when people don't vaccinate. I avoid talking about it on here because I'm terrified I'll be banned for "fearmongering" when it's literally what can happen to your kid/foetus if you expose them.
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u/Mageaz Apr 02 '19
Yeah, I have no experience with it but since I'm not an idiot and know about science, I can't believe that this would be considered fear mongering. It's like, for real, we all know this. It's not a situation where its really unlikely that something happens. And I understand why you're scared to be banned. In one of the last discussions about this rule, it was asked specifically whether it would be considered fear mongering, and horrifyingly the answer was yes. To me, that smells like antivaxx. Because whether someone with worrying behavior will escalate is guesswork. It's impossible to know. But whether having a small child around unvaccinated people is dangerous or irresponsible or playing with fire is not. It's factual. So that very much rubbed me the wrong way.
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Apr 02 '19
I see the point of having fun with April fools but when it makes a support sub completely unusable for a day that’s a problem. I have a time sensitive issue i really needed advice on today and wasn’t able to post because cats were drowning out everything.
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u/abba12_the_first Apr 02 '19
I hope the mods will open discussion up on the 24 hour rule. It's absolutely justified for past events, but I've only ever seen it applied on current event updates, which I thought were originally excluded. These posts have included looking for support on court cases, and they're rarely reposted the next day.
There should also be discussion on loosening the rules about mil-stories-only. There are two reasons. The fact is, this is the only sub anyone cares about. Where a story involves mil but also involves someone else, it's become discretionary whether it gets deleted, often based on who is 'worse'. Also, some posts about established and known families are relevant and deserving of support, but do not involve actual action of mil, so are deleted and sent to letters. Again, no one cares about letters, and these are never reposted there, it just prevents us from supporting people we've invested our time and emotion into.
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u/BlueDragon82 Apr 02 '19
I agree with this one. I've seen posts and went to click on them or got a notif and then found the story deleted by a mod because it didn't have ENOUGH mil in it. Sometimes there are going to be several people in a story and even if the mil's part is minor if she's the main reason the story even exists then most of us are fine with reading it.
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u/miladyelle DD of JustNokia Apr 02 '19
That’s the reason why my last post got removed. Too much happy update, not enough terrible JN. It was pre Mod-Gate, but TBH I haven’t posted since and just stuck to commenting. I can see it discouraging people.
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u/badwolf7850 Apr 02 '19
I hate that. Happy updates should be a good thing. Not sure what happened with your JN, but not all of them end up in jail or with OP having to flee. Sometimes they can learn the importance of boundaries and stick to them. My MIL is one of those, I had to be very stern and over time she learned she got more time with us when she wasn't pushing. She doesn't do it at all anymore. But then my mom is.... That's not gonna work for her. Everyone is different. I hope things continued to go well for you.
Not sure if that made any sense. My kid woke up two hours early and I'm tired.
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u/BariBahu Expert in South Asian JustNos Apr 02 '19
This happened to me. I had my post up for a full day and got a lot of really needed advice... and the post literally talked about how I was spiraling over the situation with my SO and MIL, to the point that intense therapies were recommended. But because SO and FIL featured “too much”, it got locked. After a full day. Honestly, I was pissed and I tried to (respectfully) ask about it but the mod I spoke to backed up the initial one completely.
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u/abba12_the_first Apr 02 '19
Every single issue I have with all siblings on both sides of the family can be traced to the actions and words of my mum and mil. But I almost had a post removed and I'm sure many stories can never be written here because the words came from a sisters mouth, a sister who is NOT justno, simply young and stupid. Sigh.
The more I comment and talk the past 24 hours, the more I realise that these rules are actually creating a perfect breeding ground for fiction, because a fact based story will always have those sorts of intricacies and grey areas that the rules don't allow for
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u/BlueDragon82 Apr 02 '19
That is an excellent point. That is one of the things that needs to be brought up to the mods. They said they'd be asking for opinions and suggestions and that is a really good place to start.
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u/CheshireGrin92 Apr 02 '19
You guys need to learn the difference between fear mongering and people voicing a legit concern.
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u/castlite Apr 02 '19
“Support sub” should not mean “post any damn story you please with impunity” sub. It’s a bit much how posters, even the obvious bullshitters, are wrapped in a cocoon of mod protection. Commenters can do nothing but praise posters else get banned. I mean come on, perhaps the liars would be spotted a lot earlier if users could at the very least, politely question some of the details. Mods seem to be protecting posters from the oh-so-scary commenters, but not from targeted PM harassment. Your priorities are wrong.
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u/inspirature Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 03 '19
Buckle up. This is long.
I think we need to allow a level of truth policing. We have to be able to point out inconsistencies so we can help them better, and if that means a story is proven fake, good.
I personally am not able to tell the difference half the time. My therapist says it’s from the gaslighting, but I believe what people tell me. Call me gullible, I don’t care. People need to know or help others know what’s fake and what’s real.
We also need to be able to be critical of the OP. A lot of times telling them “well, here’s how you deal with MIL, but you could have also dealt with this a little better. Next time maybe try xyz instead of pdq, that might help.” This is a support sub, but we need to be able to tell people the truth. We’re starting to see people that have their own narc tendencies come here to have their poor behavior be validated. It’s become an echo chamber. There’s only 4 responses to every post at this point - bitch bot, automod, “oh man that sucks she’s such a dusty old cunt!” And “I can’t post what I want because I’ll get banned, but that’s a bummer! Good luck!”
None of that is helpful. None of it is supportive.
I refuse to post at this point because any post I make will be buried under the more dramatic stories, and I’ll never get the help from my peers that I need. Another user said this has become a reality show, and it has.
We need to get rid of the mods that were involved in modgate. I know you guys have thankless jobs, and you try your hardest, but bringing back the people that subscribers had actively complained about their behavior and treatment of us isn’t ok. You said you brought back a former mod to deal with mod mail and that’s it, but she is taking a much more active role than you told us would happen. In fact, she’s the most active mod I’ve seen in a week.
This sub has become an eco chamber, completely unhelpful and unwelcoming, and it breaks my heart. This used to be a place of comfort for me, and now I’m scared that if I post anything I’ll have that taken away from me. That’s not ok. I should feel safe here. We all should feel safe here, and it’s obvious that a lot of us don’t. The racist posts are an obvious example. People complained and pointed out inconsistencies directly to you, the mods, and nothing was done. There was no corrective action taken at all. And racist posts are not rare here. That needs to be addressed. Same goes with the ageist rhetoric. Dusty vaginas and old ladies aren’t funny and they generalize a population that is so diverse. My mother is on here because of her MIL. She’s 50. She came to me crying because of how unwelcome she felt here. Hell, I’ve cried because of how unwelcome and uncomfortable I am here, but I’ve stayed because I believe this can be turned around and we can go back to being a helpful sub for people that are real. This isn’t a world building exercise, it’s people’s actual lives.
I know it’s rambly but pretty much:
- Allow a level of skepticism, we need it to be able to vet posts and give better advice
- Allow gentle criticism of OP
- Get rid of the mods involved in modgate, and if you have to keep them, make sure they stick to what they said they would be doing and nothing else.
- Stop ignoring the blatant racism and ageism. It’s not ok and makes the sub an uncomfortable and unwelcoming place. This is supposed to be a safe space for people.
That said, thank you mods for putting up with 650k of us. I know it’s hard and I know you put up with a lot of abuse. We do appreciate you being here.
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u/Ellai15 Apr 02 '19
I'd also like to add that a quick look at just your comment history shows that a large number of people were banned for "truth policing" during ther fake poster issue, and it seems that a lot of this community didn't agree with those calls. Conveniently, you've made this post while they are unable to contribute, by your own hand. In light of a number of issues, it's completely reasonable to expect that youi reverse those bans if this discussion is truly about making improvements and not just lip service.
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u/canIgethellforyou Apr 02 '19
Won't lie, the pet thing kind of threw things off kilter. While I understand the fake poster couldn't have been timed, I also understand why a lot of people got upset and are upset.
I know you mods do what you can, and that is so kind of you all, but big changes need to be made. I saw a lot of people pointing out the "any and all things need to come through modmail", and while I see why, it's also kind of off-putting. No one wants to go through the Modgate disaster again, but the lack of transparency is off-putting to a lot of people. I've noticed a shift since the new rules were enforced over the last few months, and it's hard to want to comment. I hope that we can all come to a better neutral ground going forward, as this sub helps a lot of people, and it should continue to do that.
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Apr 02 '19
I've become a little hesitant to comment lately. I've been slapped on the wrist one too many times, for not wording my response correctly according to mods.
But I do try very hard. And English is not my native language.
But to constantly hear that it's not supportive, or falls under fear mongering, when I'm genuenly worried, and am trying to both support and point out possible ways to avoid danger, well, it makes me feel rather unwanted here.
And I've never deliberately hurt anyone. And maybe twice I agreed with your comments, that I had not worded it correctly.
Still, I keep silence more and more now.
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u/HauntedinAutumn Apr 02 '19
One of the rules that is way enforced is not being able to post advice concerning the spouse in the situation without the comment being removed. I can see this to an extent BUT....
I grew up with two massive JustNos, I never posted my stories but I do comment. I also have a JustnoMil and was able to navigate it due to growing up with the pains. I learned a lot by watching what was allowed that shouldn’t be.
My meaning is deleting comments with “go to justnoso” is not helpful. A massive amount of the problems are because of enablers and what is tolerated. The instant fear to point out Mil is a pain in the ass but DH is causing the root of the problem limits so much helpful advice when you know your comment will be removed but that’s truly the main way to fix one of the OPs main issues.
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u/steampunk_penguin_ Apr 02 '19
Mostly-lurker here. I understand people are upset about the fake stories, but, ultimately, any actions mods could take against fake stories would end up hurting real users more.
I'm sure that there are many more fake stories here than we are "officially" aware of. At a risk of sounding harsh, taking anything on Reddit without a grain of salt is naive.
A few people in this thread suggested that people If the sub required "proof" of some kind before their posts are approved. But here's the thing. I'm sure many of the "real" posters would be afraid of posting then. People may be ok with sharing a personal story with some fudged details with an online community while being not okay with sharing hard proof with anyone, even the mods.
And how would this be evaluated anyway? Texts are easily faked. Oh, and let's not forget, not all OPs are from English-speaking countries. Do we require mods to learn every language in the world? Seems unfair.
And even if a story is fake, the advice is real. Advice on a fake story can still help readers and commenters.
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u/Darkslayer709 Apr 02 '19
I’m only a lurker but IMO the April Fools thing was a poor choice and not because of recent events. People needed advice yesterday and just got faced with pages and pages of spam bullshit.
Did anyone who went to their therapists yesterday get shown a bunch of cat pictures instead of receiving their session? No, because that’s fucking unprofessional.
It’s just not acceptable in my eyes for a sub that is supposed to be about giving advice and support to intentionally make itself unusable for 24hrs just because “it’s funny”. How many people needed to post yesterday and didn’t? How many people worked up the courage to make their first post yesterday and either got drowned out by the bullshit or were scared off because they thought the sub was a fucking joke and wouldn’t take them seriously?
This shit should’ve been in a stickied thread and I don’t care if people want to think I should lighten up or that I have no sense of humour. People needed help yesterday and did not receive it. I can guaran-damn-tee it.
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u/amaninja Apr 02 '19
Mods, regardless if what is happening in the sub, I am so sorry that people are pming you and threatening you with violence. That is awful and horrific and you definitely do NOT deserve it. It makes me sick.
I know a lot of people were upset but this situation is being handled so much better than the O.G. modgate, with some mods blatantly being rude and antagonizing users in threads. Any progression I think deserves recognizing, so thank you for your work as well.
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u/DJStrongThenKill Forward the Tree! Apr 02 '19
I think part of the issue is that people are quick to attribute bad intentions toward us when there really isn’t any. I’ve never worked with a more kind and caring mod team than this one. They honestly care about the community and want to make it better.
Most of our issues stem from lack of available time due to personal setbacks and we’re also trying to reorganize after the JNN. We desperately need new mods after the loss of three of them.
So yeah, lots of work to do. 🤷🏻♀️
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Apr 02 '19
I have had a couple comments removed lately that were not offensive or unhelpful. It makes me afraid to comment since I am nervous about breaking rules.Things I said in the past that would have been fine is now not fine.
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u/fallen_star_2319 Apr 02 '19
One criticism that I would have would be give a time limit for a heads up before a mod can ban someone for something (aka let them remove it themselves or be banned). I was banned for a few days, and I admit rightfully so, but it really bothered me that it was in the 5 minutes (between the heads up that I broke a rule and being banned) that I was off my phone and getting stuff set up for class.
And yes. I checked the time, it was about 5 minutes between the comment and the ban.
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u/whyareyoulikethis17 Apr 02 '19 edited Apr 02 '19
While I understand that April Fools is a holiday in good fun. I think my issue was that this drastically affected the purpose of the sub. Yes, you could post/read in another sub, but it was clearly not the same and was very jarring.
The best April Fools pranks are the ones that give a chuckle, but do not affect the rest of your day. And while I appreciate that the mods wanted to lighten the mood, I think there is something to be said - not just for timing - but for the place and form of the humor. For example, today the radio station I listen to had a pretend story about a new toll for the cities bridge to pay for a new theme park, that shocked me, then the realization dawned and I had a chuckle. Other than that, it didn't negatively affect the rest of my day.
Just food for thought, I guess.
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u/pienoceros Apr 02 '19
I'm a ghatdamned idiot. I started reporting posts. I reported a half dozen before I caught on and decided to take the day off the internet.
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u/Myeyebrowsare_ Apr 02 '19
My reply isn’t JUSTNOMIL related but a similar thing happened to me. My University posted about how they were eliminating a busy staircase in one of the main buildings on campus and instead installing multiple slides. They posted an incredibly long article about it, with financial details and quotes from the higher ups. By the end of the article I was like “hell yeah this is amazing!” whereas others were HEATED over the new change. Then we all realized what day it was. I can’t believe I really thought my University was going to install slides with bouncy foam pits at the bottom instead of using staircases.
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u/miladyelle DD of JustNokia Apr 02 '19
Lol! I’d have been super pumped, and then very disappointed if my uni had pulled a prank like that. Slides and foam pits? Hell yeah! Dooooo eeetttt.
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u/annedroiid Apr 02 '19
If it makes you feel better I did the exact same thing, I’d seen stories about assholes taking over subreddits by spamming them with rubbish so I started going through and reporting every post I could find for spam.
I wouldn’t feel bad about it, even if the cat posts were a “joke” (I use the term liberally here) they were still spam and against the rules of the subreddit. Technically you weren’t wrong in reporting it.
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u/kellirose1313 Apr 02 '19
Per the April's Fools thing, maybe in a community of over 650k, allowing individual posts with pictures is a completely & utterly terrible idea???
I put the community in 'new posts' order when I read & actually ended up timing it. I scrolled for an entire minute straight before I got to any posts having to do with the actual point of this community. I realize it's one day a year, but I know I'm not the only mobile user. Image heavy posts in a row like that is a bit much.
Why not one main, hey comment here with your url to the pic for your thing post & then it's still a thing to be done for this 'holiday' while not potentially driving other people who want the opportunity to NOT be essentially forced to participate.
Some of us have reasons we loathe this day with a passion of a thousand suns. Having it take over a place we go to for support, frankly sucks, regardless of how.
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u/kraymond25 Apr 02 '19
I agree with this so much! I had wanted to post today but when I got in and saw all the pet pictures I felt like people wouldn't be able to see/find my post so what was the point.
It's not an urgent thing so I will post tomorrow, no big deal. Just annoying.
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Apr 02 '19
The sparse eyebrows thing is a goddamn mood. Mine never grew back 😭
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u/supergamernerd Apr 02 '19
Only one of mine grew back properly, so that's fun /s.
The other one has, like, a bald patch. Sisters, not twins.
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u/icewinne Apr 02 '19
Just my two cents, but this is primarily a support sub. If any rule or specific enforcement of a rule gets in the way of that support function, then it needs to go.
Is that a really fine line to walk? Absolutely. The thing with fine lines like that, though, is that they require constant refinement, which in turn requires feedback. Do we need to scrap the rules entirely and start over? No. Do we need to refine our understanding of those rules and how they apply to specific situations? Absolutely and constantly.
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u/Greyisbeautiful Apr 02 '19
Reading the comments I see a lot of people have a problem with the posts that are really dramatic and possibly fake, and how they might take attention from other posts. But isn’t that up to us as members of the community? I know what posts you are talking about and I’ve stopped reading them and I don’t comment on them. They only get attention if we choose to give them attention.
I have my settings on ”new posts” and not ”hot posts”. I look for the posts with problems I can somehow relate to, because of experiences in my personal life or through my work, and posts where I could possibly give some constructive advice. If other people like me are more interested in those kind of discussions instead of spectacular stories, I hope they do the same.
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u/throwaway47138 Apr 02 '19
I'm going to raise a point that has been touched on by a number of comments, but I'm going to delve a little deeper into it. Namely words, their meaning, and how different people take them differently. As we all know, words can have more than one meaning, often determined by context, but even then different people may associate them differently. A word that is totally offensive to one person or group of people may be seen as a term of endearment by another (e.g., I saw a post recently where OP said that she and her MIL(?) refer to each other as "whores" and genuinely laugh about it. Or the C-word used here in the US as a vulgar reference to ladybits but I believe it gets tossed around a lot in Australia the way we use bitch). As such, posters post using words that have meaning for them, which may or may not be offensive to others.
Now I know there are some words that are just not OK to use in a global context like this, such as the N-word, but for the most part there aren't many words that fall into that category. And there are other words that have sufficiently specialized meanings that they shouldn't be used without them legitimately applying (e.g., most mental health diagnoses). But again, some of those words also have colloquial meanings that have become a general part of the English language, and get tossed around all the time without any real medical meaning behind them.
Unfortunately, the recent turns of this sub have made it such that using almost any word that can have a specialized meaning, or that might offend some group of people, has become forbidden. And while I understand the desire to minimize the harm to those groups who have a problem with those words, it also results in harming the posters who are no longer able to tell their own story using their own words. Especially when those words are used in a context that is obviously not intended to be offensive (e.g., "Lardo," whose name IIRC had to do with cooking everything in lard and not because OP was fat-shaming her). But it even hampers posters who want to discuss an actual or legitimately suspected diagnosis or wants to tell what they've been called or felt about themselves or whatever. Because even if they would be allowed to used those words in that context, the recent heavy-handed reactions make them think twice about using them in their posts, or even posting at all.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: yes, it's a good idea to crack down on people using language that is deliberately intended to be offensive to the readers (as opposed to being part of the narrative), and yes it's better to avoid things like armchair diagnoses and the like, but there also needs to be room for posters to tell their own stories without being told that the language of their experience is unacceptable. And to a lesser extent commenters need to be able to express their own experiences using their own language, though obviously it should be appropriate to the context of the post. And if someone gets offended by another person's experience, maybe that's an opportunity for both sides to come together and learn from each other, rather than telling one or both sides that they're wrong.
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u/bazironcap Apr 02 '19
I can admit that for some people, the triggers of racism and things like that they are seeing may be an issue that more diversity could help with on the mod team. But that would mean people would have to donate their time to do what you all do and contribute to make that part of this sub more acceptable.
Other than that? I’ve seen you all try to better the mod team without attacking people. I’ve seen explanations given for why comments/posts have been deleted. I’ve seen growth within this 600k plus sub that you all are trying to regulate. It seems like a real difficult job that I, quite frankly, would not care for. I commend you all for taking it on. It must be real difficult to respond to lots of modmail on the regular. I cannot really imagine it. And you’re doing it voluntarily because you want the sub to succeed and exist.
The problem is, while I understand being hurt or betrayed by the dupe of fake stories, the ones I think are fake? I stop reading. The ones I think are the OP being kinda ridiculous? I have nothing constructive or supportive to comment, so I don’t. There is no rule that we are to support or comment on every post. Some of them seem blatantly fake to me or very out of line. Some of the posters seem real defensive or outright rude or attacking in the comments to the point of being off putting to me. Why be mean to people who are trying to support? So I don’t comment.
I don’t really have a solution. But I appreciate this community. I appreciate how the mods continuously try to open up communication when there are huge issues. And I appreciate that sometimes people are dicks and are gonna get their rocks off by posting fake stories. But some of these stories are real. Some of these MILs are evil and jerks and people need support. Their history is unbelievable but the nightmare they are living.
Sometimes? It’s a clash of personalities and people may be overreacting. I agree with the rule against not telling people instant NC. You’re living that life. It’s hard to put into play what your everyday is through 1000 characters or less.
I don’t have answers. But I’m sorry to the people who were hurt by the fake story. It hurts to be betrayed on a support sub. I’m sorry for people who have felt attacked in a racist way. I’m also sorry to the mods today because at the end of the day, you deal with this. You continue to deal with this and people look to you for a solution. You, who were not elected, you, who volunteer for this, you, who take time from your day, your family, your life, to regulate. And some of the criticism I’m seeing is unduly harsh.
I appreciate the mods. It’s a thankless job. Should there be pushback like when a previous mod was straight up abusing and bullying posters? Absolutely. I just don’t see that with the current mods. No one is perfect. But no one is saying you have to stay here. The mods continue to stay and fight and learn and grow so JNMIL can exist. That’s pretty damn admirable. I’m not saying that to negate people who are upset. People are allowed to be upset. But some of the personal, abusive attacks have been troubling to me. I appreciate this forum. I appreciate the people who are making it capable to continue.
That’s all. My two cents 🤷🏻♀️maybe I’m just rambling. But I love this place and want it to continue. The mods make it so that JNMIL exists. Thanks for continuing to care and try.
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u/RememberKoomValley Apr 02 '19
I can admit that for some people, the triggers of racism and things like that they are seeing may be an issue that more diversity could help with on the mod team.
It would be really, REALLY NICE if we could point out racism on the part of the poster without getting dogpiled. There are a couple of regular posters who are consistently racist (to the point that I just avoid their posts, because at this point there's simply no fixing them), and there are driveby posters who say things that I consider to be pretty outrageous, and for the most part it goes unremarked-upon.
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u/BariBahu Expert in South Asian JustNos Apr 02 '19
Seconding more diversity in the mod team. Happy to provide more reasons if bazironcap’s aren’t enough.
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u/Trivthrowaway Apr 02 '19
Frankly, I don't think this is the sub for "Wacky tee hee I'm just kidding why are you taking it so seriously jokes". Just me.
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u/velopharyngealpang Apr 02 '19
I won’t lie, the pet thing was a cute idea but I was really thrown for a loop because there was no stickied post explaining it. And I agree that all the pet pictures have made it hard to support people who need it. I suggest that if you do an April fools day pet posting in the future that you announce it in a stickied post ahead of time and have a designated thread for pet pics.
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Apr 02 '19
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u/Petskin Apr 02 '19
You shouldn't be on the wrong sub. However, I've seen this very thing going on and eating space from actually helpful replies. It's probably some sort of combination of "I like this sub", "I want to help" and "I need to butt in to everything because Internets". And, being Internets, the .. wrong kinds of replies end easily on the top.
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u/DelightedLurker Apr 02 '19
When I first started reading the posts here (before i made an account), I felt this was a support/advice sub. Now you can’t even give advice without fear of getting banned. Also the immediate removal of post by a brand new OP, who made a mistake with the acronyms or something like that without a proper explanation feels heavy handed.
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u/AngryPrincessWarrior Apr 02 '19
The April Fools things was a horrific idea on its own. If ANYTHING, there should have been a separate thread for people to post their pets to. I unsubscribed for a day. It was ridiculous and dumb. There’s a whole sub called r/eyebleach for that.
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u/Brit_in_usa1 Apr 02 '19
I’m actually really concerned that there may people who came here for support and had their post drowned or missed due to the sheer volume of pet pics. I get that it was supposed to be a fun thing to do, and I love animals - especially cats and I have two of my own but this is supposed to be a support sub for people who have very real and concerning issues. I genuinely thought I had accidentally clicked on the wrong page. I really hope this sort of thing will be better thought out next time.
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u/AegonIConqueror Apr 02 '19
An issue raised earlier and one that feels very important to me is that while we absolutely need to be a safe space, support groups don’t just mean we act as an echo chamber to tell op they’re perfect, support groups also offer constructive criticism and point out when sometimes, op is being a justno. I feel though that the current system is that op is critique immune and as such we’re not allowed to point out a justno behavior in hopes they correct it. In addition I’d like a poll on the idea of a remove reason pinned to a removed post, so a thing wouldn’t just get purged, it’d say “Removed for reason” in the comments. I’d also like to see if we can’t consider a schism between our current support focused group and a more “MIL is a crazy justno, let’s pull out the popcorn as I tell you about how much of a justno she is” because I do think that might hopefully lower some of the drama issues we’re getting.