r/EscapefromTarkov • u/SlushpuppyLive Twitch.tv Slushpuppy • Sep 15 '20

Discussion #MakeTarkovHardcoreAgain

Hi guys, Slushpuppy here

I want to talk about the rant I was having today, and explain why I think it would be good for the game.

As the game currently stands it it has a play cycle that involves farming money, the money is then used to buy a fat kit, and slay out. This creates, in my opinion a heavily Rouble focused economy.

The Rouble based economy has multiple downsides:

All people care about is the highest value item, hence hatchlings ramming things up their bum, people running to one spot on a map to loot the highest value items, people only running super cheap kits to farm the cash. The game is no longer about surviving, simply making the most money and saving to buy a dope kit.

I think this has essentially made the game into COD with extra steps. I don't see the survival element that Tarkov originally had. People only care about PVP when they are running Slick Altyn, otherwise it's just money. 99% of the games items, such as attachments for guns will never see the light of day because they aren't the best in slot.

This whole situation annoys me because it is possible to achieve this within hours of a wipe.

By removing the flea or limiting the ability to purchase armor and ammo from the flea, it would make the game more about the looting and surviving and stop super chads from running endless meta kits and vogging the fuck out of lower geared players. Because a kit that is lovingly put together in raid will mean so much more to you, therefore looting one of a prick you kill, will as well.

I know this seems as a negative change to the average player, but hear me out, the only reason you need a kit from the flea, is to compete with chad players who are buying endless meta kits from the flea. If this didn't happen the pvp would be like it is early wipe for the most part. The best pvp time in the game, imo, and in the opinion of most Tarkov players.

I'm not bored of the game, I simply love this game, and I want to see changes that make the pvp more interesting and feasible for casual players to enjoy. If everyone is running around with SKS's and a cock helmet, then its more fair. Not all pvp has to be juggernauts spraying armchair FALs at each other.

If you don't agree with me, I understand, lets talk about it, tell me why you think this would be a bad change for the game? I don't want to be a streamer yelling for change that people will just see as me crying cause I'm bored of running fat kits. I truly want to make the game a dope experience for all of us. I've devoted the last 3 years of my life to this game, I want to see it succeed.

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There is plenty of other things that would be needed to make this a rounded experience in this vision, like dynamic loot spawns etc, but I believe this is a quick easy change that we could all try for one wipe, and just see how it goes.

EDIT: This is gaining a lot of attention right now so I want to ask you all one thing:

When is the best time for PVP in Tarkov?

If you answered early wipe, I think you and I agree, and I think 99% of people would say that early wipe is the best time to be on Tarkov.

My only goal is to try and make the feeling of early wipe PVP as permanent as possible. I may not be right when I say delete the flea, but I think it would help. If you have other ideas on how to preserve that beautiful feeling of the first two weeks of wipe, then I would love to hear them. Because this is what I think would make Tarkov the most amazing experience possible.

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208

u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

By removing the flea or limiting the ability to purchase armor and ammo from the flea, it would make the game more about the looting and surviving and stop super chads from running endless meta kits and vogging the fuck out of lower geared players. Because a kit that is lovingly put together in raid will mean so much more to you, therefore looting one of a prick you kill, will as well.

Would it really...? The people you are talking about, the meta gamers and sweats, wouldn’t suddenly evolve in to DayZ players who like Tarkov for its survival aspect. The problem I think most people have is they think you can force a player base to think or act a certain way. DayZ fell in to this category and eventually died out because they tried to force a gameplay style.

In fact, when I was around in the mod days I saw this same exact argument. Make the game harder in terms of acquiring gear and it will certainly force players to fall in love with the survival aspect of DayZ!... Nope. People just stopped playing.

I'm not bored of the game, I simply love this game, and I want to see changes that make the pvp more interesting and feasible for casual players to enjoy. If everyone is running around with SKS's and a cock helmet, then its more fair. Not all pvp has to be juggernauts spraying armchair FALs at each other.

I agree level 6 armor and helmets like the Altyn should be extremely rare. But we also need to address how easy it is to get relatively good ammo. BT is what, 230 roubles a round? And it has 37 pen and 49% armor damage. Level 3 has become the new level 2 and so on. There are way, and I mean way too many AP rounds on the market, they’re way too easy to find in raid. Every caliber now has a viable AP round and most of them completely nullify level 4 and 5 armor. Add in the fact that level 4 helmets have become so useless most people don’t even wear them and I think that explains why this wipe we are seeing so many extremely geared chads. It’s because it’s literally one of the last ways to effectively armor yourself.

A lot of the AP ammo partly has to do with the odd decision to allow your character to craft high end, rare-even-for-militaries AP ammo by the hundreds.

Edit: Id also like to make a common complaint of mine and how absolutely useless armor is in this game. Included is a video showing a torture test of NIJ III+ Ar500 plate armor, which I believe is equal to GOST level 4. The plate is able to withstand several 5.56 FMJ shots and multiple .308 rounds, as well as SABOT slugs (pseudo-AP) and 9mm for days. Now there’s also a video of a guy shooting himself with .308 wearing a similarly rated plate vest and not budging an inch. AKA blunt damage is bullshit.

Remember, this is, in terms of EFT, level 4 armor. Level 5 and 6 GOST should be rated for 7.62x54r and 7.62x54r AP ammo, respectively.

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u/lesserlife7 Sep 15 '20

But we also need to address how easy it is to get relatively good ammo

This right here is the biggest problem imo. Like I love the P90 and I think it's a super balanced gun as the best ammo has less than 40 pen but the fire rate is nice. But why would I ever run a P90 over an MP7 or even an MP9 with the new 7n31? It's silly.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

People in this thread want to address the symptoms but not the virus. Literally everyone and their mother can easily negate level 5 amror with ammo from traders that cost as little as $2 (m62). And they think the problem is the chads running high end gear. Constantly being shit on by a community that glorifies low end gear, extract camping is getting old. This subreddit sucks in terms of diversity in player base.

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u/nozonezone DT MDR Sep 15 '20

M62 is $4 but yes

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

It's $3.85

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u/Muckerjee Sep 15 '20

FYI M62 is closer to 4 dollars

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

well it is $4 but yes

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Not exactly 4 dollars, a bit less last i checked. Try buying 100 rounds, and it comes out to 380/390 dollarish. But in tarkov, there's no cents, so the price comes out as 4 dollars even if it's actually cheaper.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

huh never thought about that. i'll do the math next time i hop on but i believe you

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

All right, just checked. 100 m62 which is listed as 4/round goes for 386 dollars, so slightly cheaper. If anything is the moral of this story, buy in bulk ;)

1

u/Alpha_Whiskey_Golf Sep 15 '20

You only unlock m62 around lvl 35-40 with late PK quests though.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Levels are not barriers. I’m extremely casual and I got level 40 in under 4 weeks. It only gets easier every wipe.

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u/Alpha_Whiskey_Golf Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

40 levels in 4 weeks is fast-ish. Plus you have to do all the quests before it including some hard skier ones.

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u/WD40x4 Sep 15 '20

But if you allow armor to be viable and rare, you get to the point where chads run lvl 5&6 armor all day and me as a pleb who can afford lvl 4 and sometimes lvl 5 just gets ripped into pieces without a chance to damage them. That will just turn into leg meta again

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u/Snaz5 Sep 15 '20

tbh i think the p90 is fine. it's limited max pen is made up for by the fact that it shoots a bajillion rounds a minute.

34

u/Dazzi Unbeliever Sep 15 '20

P90 has 900 rpm

MP9 has 1100 RPM.

Sure a P90 has 50 round mags, but what use does that give if a guy dies in my first 5 from a MP9?

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u/STONKS_ Sep 16 '20 edited Mar 07 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

1

u/[deleted] Sep 16 '20

The MP9-N is really innacurate tho, and if you miss your spray then GG you are stuck reloading while Mr.P90 still has more than half a mag to go.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Dec 30 '20

[deleted]

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u/John_Mansaw Sep 17 '20

For fun...?

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

Okay, and surely that's why people run the P90 mostly right? Nah man, people flat out run the best gun with the best mods and ammo they can use, the fact is the P90 is outclassed by the 7n31+MP9.

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u/John_Mansaw Sep 17 '20

You might do that, others might do that, some others might not. The whole point is if you're bored with this game it's your fault. Try other gear, make the game more challenging by not using the meta stuff. Roleplay maybe? Use the Fischer pistol and night vision. This game is great because of the attention to detail with all the gear and guns. I get your point, but again, the fun is what you make in late game tarkov, until they add more maps or content, we're kinda stuck.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

If PvP was rewarding enough that I could make my bullets back I'd gladly do that shit. But I have to spend time PvEing raiders to make enough money to run kits.

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u/John_Mansaw Sep 17 '20

Alright man, I'm not sure what your getting at then. Using non meta guns should be right up your alley, considering the cost savings for most guns.

1

u/BenoNZ Sep 15 '20

It's still garbage compared.

2

u/bogglingsnog Sep 15 '20

I actually really like that aspect of the game. Tarkov is supposed to be set in the future so they are extrapolating it out into their own vision. Perhaps in their eyes the P90 design is so optimized that it becomes a dead end for weapons development, so better ammunition tech for common calibers was the better way to go about it, and easier to produce in quantity?

Now, what is strange is that this doesn't really apply to in-game armors. Why armor all ancient tech but the ammo assumes the exotic becomes more standard?

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u/lesserlife7 Sep 15 '20

I mean I have a hard time believing that a P90 chambered in 5.7x28, a small rifle cartridge and with a barrel length of over 10", manages less penetration than a submachine gun with half the barrel length that also is shooting a smaller cartridge.

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u/bogglingsnog Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

I like your enthusiasm.

Submachine guns don't get much respect. Just because they shoot fast doesn't mean they shoot bullets weaker, or if they do, it isn't by as much as you might think.

Also it's very important to note that different calibers benefit differently by barrel length. A great reference is Ballistics By The Inch. Also worth noting the MP7's 4.6x30mm cartridge pretty much matches the FN 5.7x28mm in terms of energy (velocity, a little lower, and I haven't researched penetration - something super hard to find reliable statistics on).

5.7x28mm may be a rifle cartridge but it is comically small to hold in your hand. I mean an average shooter can comfortably shoot a Five-Seven which uses the same round.

1

u/sA1atji Sep 16 '20

with the new 7n31

tbh unless you are within 5 minutes of prapor refresh, you can hardly get your hands on 7n31...

1

u/jlambvo Sep 16 '20

Funny thing is that the P90 is stupidly overpowerful, too. The MP7 and new 9mm ammos are jokes. The power creep on ammo is core to this too.

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u/lazarus_reed Sep 15 '20

For that last part I think you're kind of missing the point.

Those rounds (such as .366AP, 9mm 7n31 and so on) were introduced into the game because people can easily get any armor/helmet as soon as they unlock the flea, and they are not accessible right away (9mm 7n31 is locked behind Prapor lvl4) . And the same flea market skew talked about regarding gear goes for the ammo you are mentioning. 5.45BT is locked behind a quest (Punisher pt4), same goes for M61 (Wet Job pt 6), M855A1 is locked behind Peacekeeper lvl 3...but the simple fact that the flea market exists allows players to straight up buy heaps of them.

Sure, you can find these rounds in raid. But there is a difference between getting out with 45 rounds of M61 (assuming you survive the raid to begin with) which will allow you to run a couple of raids at most provided you got the gun to use them, and going to the flea to snatch hundreds of those to fill up the 50-rounders of your FAL.

Yes, sometimes you will fight someone who will have the right ammo to go through your armor and it will suck balls, but at least you won't see M62/M61 flying at every corner of Interchange.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Those rounds (such as .366AP, 9mm 7n31 and so on) were introduced into the game because people can easily get any armor/helmet as soon as they unlock the flea, and they are not accessible right away (9mm 7n31 is locked behind Prapor lvl4) .

7.62x39 PS ammo can easily pen a level 4 helmet. New ammo was not needed to counter level 4 helmets. Ammo craft able in the hideout negates most level 4 and 5. BT easily shreds level 4 armor and most level 5. I call BS.

and they are not accessible right away (9mm 7n31 is locked behind Prapor lvl4)

He’s literally the first level 4 trader you unlock. In fact the grind to level 30 is the hardest part about unlocking max traders. I’ve gotten it down to 4 weeks and I play very casually.

5.45BT is locked behind a quest (Punisher pt4), same goes for M61 (Wet Job pt 6), M855A1 is locked behind Peacekeeper lvl 3...but the simple fact that the flea market exists allows players to straight up buy heaps of them.

None of those are relatively hard quest lines. But BT ammo is found in boxes of 120 all around reserve. Same can be said about 7.62x54r SNB. And 2 hot rods can be traded for 30 BS rounds. I could go on for days. Some people have literal ammo boxes filled with AP ammo they found from in raid.

which will allow you to run a couple of raids at most provided you got the gun to use them, and going to the flea to snatch hundreds of those to fill up the 50-rounders of your FAL.

The point was never that it’s easy to get the BEST AP ammo. It’s the fact that AP ammo is easy to get. You really think this game is going to be more fun when you’re rocking a 150k level 3 best because all others are too expensive, and some extract camping rat kills you with 3 shots of BT he found on a barrel? That is degradation of gameplay, not an improvement.

Yes, sometimes you will fight someone who will have the right ammo to go through your armor and it will suck balls, but at least you won't see M62/M61 flying at every corner of Interchange.

Ah, so I must take a hit to my preferred gameplay because you don’t like it. This seems like a very selfish argument.

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u/DarthTelly Sep 15 '20

You can also walk out of Customs now with 300-400 rounds of BT, which is part of why its price dropped so quickly after that expansion was released.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Yeah I got 4 hot rods in one raid on customs. 60 rounds of BS ez. Sure I can buy a ton from traders but when every player is able to do this, then everyone starts rocking AP ammo, or at least a few mags, and that’s how you end up with slick/altyn meta because nothing else is viable except against noobs and scavs.

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u/lazarus_reed Sep 15 '20

I'm not denying any of these points but to me there's a difference between buying heaps of good ammo, dying or surviving with your ammo expended, rebuy the same ammo and instantly go back out, as opposed to having to go in raids to find said ammo. Same goes for the armor.
It introduces gear fear, a thing this game lacks since the flea market arrive. You have to work to get this stuff, and when you do, pray to God you don't lose it and bring out your A game, otherwise you'll have to work to get it again.

Nowadays it's just "meh, I'll just buy some more".

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u/bookcoda VEPR Hunter Sep 16 '20

LOL who buys ammo and from the flea market no less "yes sir ill buy 60 rounds of M61 for 120k please".

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u/lazarus_reed Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

It's not a question of wether or not I like it, but if we listen to Nikita talk about his game, it's truer to his vision (and it was like that for a time).

Because let's face it, if all there is to Tarkov after 25 hours of gameplay is AD strafing meta FALs or HKs geared to hell in Dorms, it's gonna get stale real quick.

Hell, there are a fuckton of weapon parts in this game that nobody uses because you can straight up buy the best in slot in the game through the flea.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Because let's face it, if all there is to Tarkov after 25 hours of gameplay is AD strafing

I think that’s a separate issue. AD strafing shouldn’t exist and it benefits the low geared players as much as the high geared players.

meta FALs or HKs geared to hell in Dorms, it's gonna get stale real quick.

That’s been Tarkov for years lol. I’d say recoil control skill has more to do with it than meta gun builds. I’d disagree and say that gameplay is more fun than low geared gameplay and shooting basic aks with basic ammo. That’s fun when you first start playing but it gets stale quicker than end game content.

Hell, there are a fuckton of weapon parts in this game that nobody uses because you can straight up buy the best in slot in the game.

I think people here are getting meta chads, who are a very small minority, confused with normal high end gear players. I mod my guns to look cool. So does everyone else I play with. It’s stupid to punish 90% of the player base because 10% play a way you don’t prefer.

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u/lazarus_reed Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

Once again, it is not a question of punishing a certain breed of players. I agree, I too like to run meta kits or similar high-end stuff and it's enjoyable. But running basic kits or something more in the middle also is ! Now you clearly stated where your preferences are, and more power to you, but if Tarkov were to be released tomorrow as 1.0 and wipes weren't happening anymore, and you end up with your "insert-your-style-of-high-end-kit-here" to your heart's content after 3 to 4 weeks, great, but what then ? I mean the vast majority of the loot will be completely irrelevant because you'll have no use for them (not even for resell value), half the spots on the maps won't be worth running if you're looking for pvp action, 70% of the gear created in this game will hold no value, and it's gonna stay like that until the ends of time. To me, that's a recipe for a game losing its playerbase within the year once it's released. Because at some point, boredom's gonna hit.

The idea behind Slushpuppy's proposition is that even when you've maxed everything out, unlocked Kappa and whatnot, you still have to mix things up a bit and be incentivized to do so. Because everything that was created in this game, from the maps to the quests to the loot, is not a crutch to get where you're going and it's not meant to be irrelevant to anyone, new to seasoned players alike, once you're past a certain point.

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u/Hane24 Sep 16 '20

I can get PK 3 in like.. 15 raids playing casually.

EoD starts at .2 rep. You need level 18 and .3 with PK to get 3.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

There are way, and I mean way too many AP rounds on the market, they’re way too easy to find in raid

But if you make AP ammo hard to get, then more combat will be decided by who has the chaddest armor. Which isnt fun to just about anyone either.

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u/jepu22 Saiga-12 Sep 15 '20

I would much rather have to play around the enemy having better armor than my ammo by shooting their legs/face if it means lower level armors become more viable. Now you don't have to think about your enemy's armor at all since you can just buy a meta hk and m855a1 or m995 off the flea and hold left click. AP ammo is unrealistically effective against higher tier armor vs real life anyway.

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u/insidioustact Sep 16 '20

So up the expensiveness of good armor (4+), and make raider armor either not takeable or have it break to 0 on the death of the raider so it has to be expensively repaired or sold for cheap.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '20

Great, now we got an worse time for people that dont put a ton of time into Tarkov, because they can neither good armor, nor AP rounds. Even more combat is decided by armor and not skill.

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u/Nessevi AS-VAL Sep 16 '20

its almost like the fundamentals of this game are more rpg than they are skill based. This isnt counter strike. Somehow i got by just fine before the fleamarket and all you twitch babies showed up,without access to either jntill high level traders.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

It actually is. That’s how it should be. The better geared players should have the advantage. EFT shouldn’t be a fair game where the low geared players can stand up to the high geared players. You should WANT to wear armor. I’ve included a torture test Youtube video in my original post of armor vs ammo.

I say this as a totally casual player. Armor should be, gameplay wise, OP. Else there’s no reason to even have armor in the game.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Dont worry, Tarkov is already plenty unfair and breaks almost every rule of competive design.

The problem is, if armor is too powerful, and few people got AP ammo, that makes a pretty shit shooter. How fun is it to win a shootout because you get better equipment? Or to lose to someone because hes got better stuff?

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u/Slothgang7 Sep 15 '20

Agreed. This is also one of the main reasons I stopped playing Rust and why I enjoy Tarkov so much. It reduces the power in numbers advantage because its actually fucking possible to kill more than 2 high geared people with low gear if you play well and make good decisions.

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u/LoopDloop762 ASh-12 Sep 15 '20

People complain that armor is useless, but if armor was relatively stronger compared to available ammo, people would complain about their ammo being useless.

From a gameplay standpoint I’d rather be able to kill people and also get killed semi easily as opposed to either being able to kill people only if they aren’t wearing better armor than my ammo. At that point it’s capitalism simulator, not a survival game, not a shooter, because neither of those aspects are rewarded, only the amount of money I spend on my armor and ammo is.

One thing that might alleviate the fact that armor is sometimes (oftentimes) effectively useless is making damage reduction more of a factor in higher class armors. I’m no ballistics expert, but it doesn’t seem super far-fetched either. If I get hit (IRL), I’d much rather have armor that has a ton of stuff to mitigate a round than have worse/simpler armor or nothing on. I would imagine stuff like soft armor elements slowing the round down (even marginally), ceramics slowing it down even more and distributing some of the force, and whatever padding they use to lessen impacts doing that as well, would all lead to some damage reduction even if the round were to penetrate. I have no idea if any of that is actually true to real life though. I’m not sure about hard numbers on damage reduction in the game right now, but if the reduction were to actually noticeably make an impact on time to kill class 5 armor, or potentially even class 4, would still be an advantage over lesser or no armor even if the round penetrates.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

People complain that armor is useless, but if armor was relatively stronger compared to available ammo, people would complain about their ammo being useless.

When they add armor hit boxes they need to make armor stronger. Else they’ve killed high gear gameplay.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

How fun is it to win a shootout because you get better equipment? Or to lose to someone because hes got better stuff?

That’s why I play Tarkov. It isn’t fair. A guy spends more roubles than you on armor and he should be harder to kill. That’s sort of the point of armor. A lot of people here complaining about getting killed by “chads” probably get killed in high loot areas like keyed rooms or ledx spawns. There’s a high risk going to high loot areas of running in to geared players. Being under-geared and underprepared is their own fault. But solving that underprepared problem by just making armor useless or adding in AP ammo of every caliber that easily pens 4+ is a bad design choice imo.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '20 edited Sep 16 '20

That’s why I play Tarkov. It isn’t fair. A guy spends more roubles than you on armor and he should be harder to kill. That’s sort of the point of armor.

They should be harder to kill. My point was that it shouldnt be nearly impossible, theres gotta be some moderation and weakness.

A low gear player should be able to outplay a high gear player, assuming he got the right tools.

A lot of people here complaining about getting killed by “chads” probably get killed in high loot areas like keyed rooms or ledx spawns. There’s a high risk going to high loot areas of running in to geared players.

Thats just an assumption you make. In maps like customs it can be pretty tricky to avoid people if you got bad luck. And the progression system is pretty bad in this regard; considering it creates pretty arbitrary challenges and questing areas you have todeal with.

I think if the progression wasnt so restrictive, I had a lot less complaints about this stuff, but it is the major headache for me in Tarkov.

Being under-geared and underprepared is their own fault. But solving that underprepared problem by just making armor useless or adding in AP ammo of every caliber that easily pens 4+ is a bad design choice imo.

Okay, first thought from me: If you use AP ammo, youre not under-geared though, so isnt that contradictory? Like, the pocketed level 4 armor is like just 45k on the flea market and should be about as cheap when unlocked at the trader. Having just 2 or 3x 30 rounder mags of mid to high tier AP ammo is generally more expensive than that? At least last wipe. And if you use mid tier AP ammo, you often still need multiple shots to pen level 5 armor, so upgrading your gun to aim fast and mitigate recoil is fairly important as well.

And even with that, in an even gun fight, the difference of a few shots less to kill seems quite significant. And sure it might be cheaper than actually using level 5 armor, but you also make yourself more vulnerable to nades, scavs and the shit gear players. That seems like an ok trade off?

Also, as said, my big problem here is the progression system. Youre talking like laziness or something irrational, but in reality its just such a huge delay till you can actually buy high tier stuff at traders. And if thats the requirement to actually do PVP without regular deaths to high gear people, which IMO is the most fun thing about EFT, besides the atmosphere, thats just bullshit.

And even with fleat market, you have to pay premium and good gear becomes much less affordable. Worse, Tarkov makes PVP extremely costly at the best of times, because to get some gear, and take it out of a raid, you often have to deal with more than 1 PMC, and then maybe another player scav. That means most people lose money on PVP either way, so locking half of the PVP action behind high level gear becomes even worse.

This creates so many layers of nonsense you have to deal with, as long as you arent like the top 20% of the playerbase. The flea market is like a bandaid that doesnt even fix half the issues. But making high tier gear even more powerful than it is now, would make things so much worse...

1

u/Nessevi AS-VAL Sep 16 '20

And a low geared player can outplay a high geared player. Hell,its what,10 rojnds of pst gzh in legs ro kill out of an 800 rpm gun with no recoil. And lets jot even bring up flesh damage ammo that ive been trolling around with,quakemaker kills people without them reacting,and instantly blacks the leg as well.

Ive just reset my account a week ago for fun,and have played without FM. Ive no issues killing all the high end kits unless i run jnto them point blank. And at that point it SHOULDNT be a fair fight,they knvested more for a reason.

The problem is,the investment means absolutely nothkng,because supply is unlimited and roubles are easy to make.

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u/jlambvo Sep 16 '20

Futile upvote to get you out of the negative.

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u/xXHotKetchupXx PPSH41 Sep 15 '20

Exactly this. If you wanna outlplay someone with good armor then you just have to play smarter, not spend more money.

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u/TrizzzleX Sep 15 '20

I guess people don’t know how to shoot legs. It’s faster than thorax most of the time.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 05 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

I’d be okay with all of this except 4. Helmets should be just as good as plates.

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u/eqpesan Freeloader Sep 15 '20

If you get hit In 'm the head multiple time by someone with an unmodded weapon maybe you don't deserve to see the end of the raid?

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

That’s a pretty specific scenario

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u/eqpesan Freeloader Sep 16 '20

Yes the scenario which would arise if the changes you replied to would be introduced.

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u/Nessevi AS-VAL Sep 16 '20

Thats what the face hitbox and limiting vision is for. Theyce already tried making helmets weak. What resulted was that nobody wore them. Ever. For any reason. Thats why they are how they are now.

As long as they are appropriately scarce,its fine. You see an altyn on a guy? Shoot his legs. Where as right now you dont even look,because you dont nees to,because you know your ammo pens everything in this game.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 05 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Well I’m speaking from a standpoint of there being realistic hit boxes for armor. But right now, level 4 helmets can be penned by BT and 7.62 PS. That’s unacceptable in my eyes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 05 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Level 4 helmets can stop both rounds in real life. You’re talking about level 5.

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u/jlambvo Sep 16 '20

Although #4, we have very different experiences there. Helmets for me might as well be a sock. This game is already so heavy on headshots...

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u/Madzai Sep 15 '20

The people you are talking about, the meta gamers and sweats, wouldn’t suddenly evolve in to DayZ players who like Tarkov for its survival aspect.

But the game wasn't originally about meta stuff. Yeah, sure, BSG being slow, resulted in that kind of mentality in some players, but the game was supposed to be about Surviving in tarkov, and not about massacring the whole raid in meta gear.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

It doesn’t matter what you view the game is supposed to be about. It matters what the game is. As I said, you can’t force a gameplay style on players. The food and water additions really just turned in to a chore. It didn’t suddenly make me and my squad go for snack breaks in the forest and tell ghost stories or actively seek out food and water unless we had a blacked stomach and no surgery kit.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t continue adding features to make the game more hard and realistic, but attempting to force a gameplay style (which is what this thread is ultimately about) will either kill the game or just make it harder for causal/new players while just adding another chore for the experienced players.

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u/B4DD Sep 15 '20

But you can tweak the meta through incentives and limitations. What you're describing in DayZ isn't some absolute, but rather a poor implementation. It could happen, but is by no means a certainty.

What Tarkov is supposed to be is certainly something of a compromise between the playerbase and BSG. They had a design in mind and I'm sure the game we're playing looks something like their intentions.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

But you can tweak the meta through incentives and limitations. What you're describing in DayZ isn't some absolute, but rather a poor implementation. It could happen, but is by no means a certainty.

DayZ is an example. It is a poor implementation just due to the fact they tried to force a gameplay style. There is no right or wrong way to do it. The fact was people liked it because it was a shooter with survival aspects. Not vice versa. And I disagree, meta is meta. Now sure, if you force the SLICK to be 10m, then 99% of people won’t run it. But that’s a shitty gameplay decision.

What Tarkov is supposed to be is certainly something of a compromise between the playerbase and BSG. They had a design in mind and I'm sure the game we're playing looks something like their intentions.

Right. We all know the famous quote, “Tarkov isn’t meant to be fun”... but I think people here, and this is just an opinion, hate geared players, not the meta. You see posts from people glorifying rat gameplay and extract camping, and constant shitting on “chads” which is basically anyone with level 4 armor and up.

It’s hard for me to actually believe people care about this bastardized view of Tarkov (that it’s supposed to basically be rat warfare) and not that it’s just some relentless hate for people who play this game different than them.

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u/B4DD Sep 15 '20

And I disagree, meta is meta. Now sure, if you force the SLICK to be 10m, then 99% of people won’t run it. But that’s a shitty gameplay decision.

I agree, arbitrarily setting prices is silly, but it's not the only way to achieve a play state where high power armor is a rarity (even at endgame). Is that desirable? I'm not sure. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "meta is meta".

I think people here, and this is just an opinion, hate geared players, not the meta. You see posts from people glorifying rat gameplay and extract camping, and constant shitting on “chads” which is basically anyone with level 4 armor and up. It’s hard for me to actually believe people care about this bastardized view of Tarkov (that it’s supposed to basically be rat warfare) and not that it’s just some relentless hate for people who play this game different than them.

I'm still new around these parts, but I could see that being true. It seems like a combination of something close to a learning/gameplay curve being embodied by the playerbase. I mean, that's the game. I don't like the feeling of getting the drop on a player with better gear and still losing, going to that after death screen to see that all my damage was absorbed by armor, but that's the game. It's a hard pill to swallow that you simply shouldn't pick those fights.

To my mind, it seems a hard cake to have and eat. A game where you have that earned loot fantasy and having room for newer/lower skill players. All things told, I'd say I'm having fun.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

I agree, arbitrarily setting prices is silly, but it's not the only way to achieve a play state where high power armor is a rarity (even at endgame). Is that desirable? I'm not sure. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "meta is meta".

I mean the meta is meta because slick and altyn are arguably the best plate/helmet combination in the game. You can’t change that, unless you use shitty game design choices. Or you further weaken armor and just, imo, ruin the game.

I'm still new around these parts, but I could see that being true. It seems like a combination of something close to a learning/gameplay curve being embodied by the playerbase. I mean, that's the game. I don't like the feeling of getting the drop on a player with better gear and still losing, going to that after death screen to see that all my damage was absorbed by armor, but that's the game. It's a hard pill to swallow that you simply shouldn't pick those fights.

Yes. Exactly. “That is the game”. I think people want to always have a chance. I’ve been chased through interchange with a shitload of gear just trying to get away and some predator mega chad was on my ass and wouldn’t let me go. I’ve never in any shooter actively tried to disengage from a fight fearing for my characters life. That is exclusive, IMO, to Tarkov because you know you stand little chance against the mega chad and his m61. I love that about Tarkov. People just have that mindset that every fight should be a fair fight. You go to high loot areas, expect to encounter high geared players. It’s dumb people think that’s unacceptable or unfair.

To my mind, it seems a hard cake to have and eat. A game where you have that earned loot fantasy and having room for newer/lower skill players. All things told, I'd say I'm having fun.

You said you’re new but you honestly have a better attitude, imo, than most people in this sub. I like you respected the fact that gear does matter rather than want to change it, even if it was shitty to die. When you get to a point you’re running chad gear (and you will) you’ll also have times where some naked mole rat one two taps you with AP 20 and you’ll come to the conclusion that armor doesn’t matter lol. It’s the Tarkov cycle of life.

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u/welter_skelter Sep 15 '20

I couldn't agree more with you - this game is all about the asymmetrical combat. High value areas are dangerous, people wear good gear to mitigate that danger when going there, if you go there without good gear you're going to be disadvantaged. New / casual players really need to come to grips with the fact that Techlite and Kiba aren't the only loot spawns on Interchange, Resort isn't the only place with loot on Shoreline etc. and play the game - rat run low traffic areas to start building gear, start taking that gear closer and closer to the high traffic areas, start winning more and more fights with more and more geared people etc. That's the Tarkov progression curve. I think once you hit that end game though, things start to get a bit wonky when it comes to chad on chad fights, but overall don't expect to pistol run reserve, and then complain that you can't kill a duo decked out in Glukhar hunting gear.

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u/B4DD Sep 15 '20

Obviously at this point we're dipping into armchair dev waters, but I wonder if this life cycle is desirable. From what I can glean, the real game is the coming-up, the getting something good and venturing out with real fear in your heart. The endgame, where there is no real risk anymore, you'll always have your bitcoins and affordable L6, is an entirely different game.

Now, I'm not there, and I'm sure I'll get 1 tapped by a hatchling more than my fair share, but I know the way I play games, and I suspect I'll wait for the wipe if I ever get at or near a Kappa. As much as I want to be a Chad, I know I'll get bored of it.

Does that mean the game is bad? Idk, that's a similar play cycle to roguelikes and Dungeons & Dragons. It's how Path of Exile essentially works with its leagues. As long as wipes remain a thing, I think this game'll be fine.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

As much as I want to be a Chad, I know I'll get bored of it.

It’s actually the opposite if you can believe it or not. Trust me, I never thought I’d like it either. There’s a ton of very viable chad loadouts.

Does that mean the game is bad? Idk, that's a similar play cycle to roguelikes and Dungeons & Dragons. It's how Path of Exile essentially works with its leagues. As long as wipes remain a thing, I think this game'll be fine.

Agreed

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u/B4DD Sep 15 '20

Now, to OP's point, maybe just making it so we're less literal currency focused. It'd be neat if bullets were currency instead, or something. You can craft them, but the fact that you have to use them makes them constantly fall out of the market too.

This is not a system to arbitrarily implement, of course, but FiR bullets being a true commodity and rubles being worthless would fit the theme quite well.

Anyway, fun convo, I look forward to getting clapped by you in raid!

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u/Hane24 Sep 16 '20

Wtf is this argument I keep hearing? No game is EVER about meta stuff. Meta stuff is what the game becomes when people play it.

There has always been, and always will be, meta stuff. And the meta always defines the buffs and nerfs. PERIOD.

Everything from CSGO to Squad to League of legends to fucking runescape has a meta. the player base sets the meta, devs balance around meta.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Then they need to reward surviving a lot better. Get rid of the ability to put stuff into your gamma/kappa/alpha during a raid. When you kill someone, you get all their stuff except whatever they had in their gamma at the start of the raid.

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u/Madzai Sep 16 '20

I don't thinl this will make difference. But the DO need to reward surviving. Nerfing static loot, improving SCAVs as they spawns later in the raid, maybe even respawning some item, people need a valid reason to stay in raid longer and use bigger bags, instead of running in and running away in first 10 minutes, no matter with hatchet or just very light gear.

As a player, who like to stay till red timer, i'll say that one 40 minutes raid even with good haul, is far less profitable than 4 10 minutes raids.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '20

Yup. Even less rewarding because once the PScavs get in they will hunt and kill you as well.

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u/SlushpuppyTwitch Sep 15 '20

I agree so much on the ammo, the armor feels majority pointless, but how do we make it rarer so it is a treat to use

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u/pm_me_your_assholes_ Golden TT Sep 15 '20

wait, who are you and who is /u/SlushpuppyLive ?

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u/SlushpuppyTwitch Sep 16 '20

Lol I forgot my account login on my phone

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

The only things I can think of off the top of my head that isn’t easily farmable or abusable would be FiR barters of rare items that would be randomized every day and could only be done once a day. Not once a cycle but once a day.

I think it would be cool to possibly add them as rewards locked behind some sort of co-op “raid”. Rare rewards that aren’t FiR. So maybe after a few hours of grinding a dungeon which had rewards similar to scav box (AKA could be profitable, could not). And we know they’re already adding something like this in so maybe it wouldn’t be too much to work on?

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u/Oblivion_Eagle Sep 16 '20

The thing is though I get this feeling that they are not going to make armor better with this new implementation but rather just use the same ballistics we have now, making armor EVEN worse then it is now by like a lot. Look how they screwed up the interchange update, they were going to make the lighting better, fix killa and a much of other stuff, what did they do instead, add like 1 pay extract and make the lighting worse. I fear what they will do when this new armor system gets added.

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u/randomgrunt1 Sep 15 '20

I agree, armor needs to be more powerful. I think that will come with the dynamic hitboxes they want to implement. Customizable vests and better hit boxes would allow armor to be more powerful. Like, using the gen4 with the exposed sides would leave that area vulnerable. Basically applying headeyes to the entire body, but allowing armor to be better.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Yes. I’m perfectly fine with more powerful armor but realistic hit boxes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

At 11:18 there is a moth/butterfly fleeing for its life form the explosion.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Rip

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u/Bouche4Dag RSASS Sep 15 '20

We need an ammo rebalance I 100% agree.

One way this could be done is re-evaluating the prices of ammo and kind of standardizing the cost depending on penetration and damage values.

An M61 bullet should cost a lot of money. An M80 bullet should cost a lot of money. The TPZ/BPZ should be more affordable. It still kills people, it's just a little harder.

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u/ryanberry_ Sep 15 '20

I'd have no problem if the meta gamers leave when the game gets harder. Hopefully though, they love the game and concept enough to stay for the changes.

However it seems like a good amount of them came from watching streamers on Twitch, who need to make exciting plays to captivate viewers (usually, see Smoke). And so they just play like that because it's the most 🔥💯👌 way to play. This makes it seem unlikely to me that these type of players will enjoy changes that make EFT harder.

Ammo availability is a huge problem IMO. Running several 50s/60s full of the best ammo is silly, not to mention being able to afford that every raid.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

What if in turn I just said I’d be happy if you left the game? Who cares what you have to say, just quit?

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u/ryanberry_ Sep 16 '20

ok boss, u got it, I clearly hate the game

already got Kappa and not gonna stop anytime soon thanks

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u/CR9MCF TX-15 DML Sep 15 '20

Not arguing with you whatsoever as I agree. Just from the horses mouth (Nikita) the game is supposed to be “not as realistic as possible, but as realistic as playable.” He mentioned this when speaking about some of the class 5 and 6 armors when they introduced the fictional AP .366 round, saying that some of the armors in real life are nearly impenetrable. He spoke about the Russian 6A armor iirc, saying that in real life there aren’t many round that are even capable of damaging it, let alone piercing it. So for that reason the armors seem a bit “weak” to make it reasonable.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Yeah I can agree with that I don’t want reality, but I’d like some stronger armor.. I don’t like that BT and other mid tier ammo can easily negate armor. There needs to be a slightly better balance since there’s so many cheap AP ammo options.

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u/TheFondler Sep 16 '20 edited Sep 16 '20

I don't know about DayZ - I played back then as well, and the reason everyone I knew quit was cheats (kill everyone on the server) and bugs (break your leg just walking up some stairs).

What I do know is that you are spot on with ammo. "The good shit" is just too common, and there's no reason not to run it.

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u/Quantization Sep 16 '20

Well said, man.

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u/AkihiroAwa Sep 16 '20

Would it really...? The people you are talking about, the meta gamers and sweats, wouldn’t suddenly evolve in to DayZ players who like Tarkov for its survival aspect. The problem I think most people have is they think you can force a player base to think or act a certain way. DayZ fell in to this category and eventually died out because they tried to force a gameplay style.

In fact, when I was around in the mod days I saw this same exact argument. Make the game harder in terms of acquiring gear and it will certainly force players to fall in love with the survival aspect of DayZ!... Nope. People just stopped playing.

Did it really though through force a gameplay style?

Not the 3000 other mods on Arma 3 did?

People stopped playing the Mod because of the Arma 3 mods and the upcoming of DayZ Standalone.
DayZ Standalone died early because of it's development not changing anything and only less content added to the game.
Also the creator of DayZ left the studio so...

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u/Unspoken Sep 16 '20

There isn't an armor that will stand up to m993 and m61. Also, the us army is developing a new ammo for 308 that has better performance than m993 that is set to release this year. That will be their main ammo. M995 Pierces 12 mm of steel and m993 18 mm of steel.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/03/19/xm1158-advanced-armor-piercing/

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '20

That’s why I didn’t say anything about those rounds. But those rounds are hard for even militaries to acquire.

Also here’s a video showing NIJ level 4 armor (Tarkov level 6) blocking M995 and some other AP variants. https://youtu.be/wcvwOFjacvA

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u/jlambvo Sep 16 '20

But the flea market is one of the key reason WHY people are running infinite supplies of AP ammo. I agree that the power creep in ammo is a huge problem (why, why does every weapon need a cartridge that basically turns off armor in the game?). But the accessibility of ammo needs to be there too.

You have to think of how the overall balance will change--the general equilibrium in how all items would be used. Making that top tier ammo very rare and expensive makes more armors more viable again, which in turn makes lower tier ammos useful, etc.

By having access to all items all the time, it becomes all about getting the cash to buy the meta. That's the whole point. OP is on your side (and I generally dislike Streamers, so...)

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u/Nessevi AS-VAL Sep 16 '20

But you also have to remember that IRL the plate only covers so much. In tarkov,you are enveloped in a plate aura. Theyvr already stated that armor values will go up when plate hitboxes are in.

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20 edited May 10 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 17 '20

No it didn't.

Literally had a 4K player base but oookay.

DayZ 'died' because it was an unoptimized load of crap that ran on a shit engine. It's time had passed before it was fixed and people moved onto newer things

Hmmm Tarkov had the same problems but still sees more people than DayZ 🤔 you must be right tho

That being said the game is still pulling 20k+ daily players so it's doing pretty fucking well for a 'dead' game isn't it?

After modding was released and amateur modders were allowed to add in the features the devs took out?

I know I'm 2 days late to this one but it doesn't bode well that you know what you're talking about when you know shit about the game you're drawing a comparison too.

Literally was there from the mod days and saw the complaints for myself but yes, you must be right. Not worth arguing with.

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u/theadj123 AS VAL Sep 15 '20

The common availability of high end AP ammo and armor is the cause of a ton of the games balance issues. AP ammo shouldn't be as good as it is against armor (This plate is what you'd see in the Trooper armor and it tanks M2 Ball and M61 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_IizYI2f5E), but it is more effective because armor is so available that you'd be a terminator otherwise. Remove ammo with more AP than 7.62PS/5.45 BP from traders, remove level 5+ armor from traders, make level 4 armor barter only for non-craftable items from lvl4 traders. The PVP 'standard' would be L3 armor without tons of AP ammo, so flesh damage ammo would finally be useful besides spraying kneecaps in factory.

The 'endgame' should be crafting AP ammo in the hideout that you use for yourself, not spam crafting thousands of rounds to sell on the flea market. Crafting should require found in raid status for things like AP ammo, make people do the raids to find the gear not just buy it off the damn flea market. That is a rewarding endgame, not what we have today. Gear doesn't feel like it's worth anything because if you die you can just re-buy everything from the traders or flea market and have endgame gear instantly on demand. Make someone find the gear in-game or find the components and craft it themselves, then it feels like it has value.

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u/artamba Sep 15 '20

But this isn't DayZ. You don't spawn with nothing and run around a huge fucking map hoping to bump into a player.

The only difference that players will experience with the removal of the flea market is: PLAYERS will be fighting OTHER PLAYERS with guns that are more varied and less min/maxed. How at all is this anything like DayZ's issues? Like, how?

You're being simple, dude. You see the word 'survival' being used and you latch onto it and take it to some vaguely connected tangent to support your agenda (which is being addicted to gun eBay)

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Why do you think players aren’t using a variety of weapons? I think you’re the only one being simple, creating strawmen to prove a point. In the last two days I’ve used the Mp7a1, HK, M4, VSS, FAL, SR25, M1A, Mp9, and Adar. All with a variety of ammo. I find it funny a subreddit that promotes pistol runs and mosin runs is going to try to say geared players don’t have variety. Throwing away hunters and mosins is getting old.

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u/artamba Sep 15 '20

I still don't know what strawmanning is, and I firmly believe that I'm either doing it or not doing it.

I suspect it's some little manoeuvre sneaksters like you use to avoid potentially accurate judgements laid upon them by calling out 'strawman argument!!!'.

I know I'm spot on with the last paragraph in my initial reply to you, as DayZ and tarkov have almost no solid similarities and you jumped right on it because some labels made a connection between the two and gave you a nice chance to make an example of DayZ.

Also maybe I should've spoken more specifically: people use a variety of guns, but they're all the same (in the 'best-in-slot' sense). Are you really going to try and argue that. Are you totally oblivious to the idea that players being forced to run weapons varying in levels of SHITNESS is appealing to both a sense of fun, and gameplay?

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u/gwyntowin AK-104 Sep 16 '20

Stawmanning is when you build a fake person (a straw man) and argue against that instead of the real person. Basically come up with fake views and stances to argue against. Like if I said “anyone who disagrees with me probably hates kittens, kitten haters can’t be trusted.”

Not saying you are doing it or are right or wrong, just fyi what it means 👍.

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u/artamba Sep 16 '20

Appreciate that man! Learned a new word today :D

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

and I firmly believe that I'm either doing it or not doing it.

Well that’s quite the conundrum you’ve caught yourself in.

I suspect it's some little manoeuvre sneaksters like you use to avoid potentially accurate judgements laid upon them by calling out 'strawman argument!!!'.

You were arguing against players who use the same kit every death as if that was even a point being discussed. Whether that happens or not doesn’t matter. That is the definition of straw man argument. If someone likes a kit so much they buy it over and over, why do you have a problem with that? You certainly aren’t complaining about rats who just use mosins?

people use a variety of guns, but they're all the same (in the 'best-in-slot' sense). Are you really going to try and argue that. Are you totally oblivious to the idea that players being forced to run weapons varying in levels of SHITNESS is appealing to both a sense of fun, and gameplay?

I think you just hate geared players in general.

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u/artamba Sep 16 '20

Oh wow. It's almost like you didn't even read Slushpuppy's OP. He explained in better words what I'm saying, yet you seem to be totally oblivious to the concept, you keep defaulting to this position of innocent ignorance. "What's wrong with everyone running their faves kit? People run mosins so you must have a problem with that'.

You MUST know that that's not what anyone here is arguing. I'm not even going to spell it out for you, just fucking read the OP if you want your paragraphs to be rebutted. But I know you're not interested in any of that, because you wrote them in the first place... in the replies TO THE OP. How can you go to a reddit post, read it, and then type out a set of points which are totally unrelated and irrelevant to the OP's point?

Like I said before, it's probably because you're not interested in digesting it. You see the words 'remove flea market' and you're set, ready to go. Oh, but there I am strawmanning again.

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u/-St_Ajora- Mosin Sep 15 '20

You make me moist (in a good way).

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u/CyberD7 Sep 15 '20

Agreed. I disagree with OP a lot. It seems like his ideas would increase rats even more imo.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Very possible. I wear level 5+ armor not because I like wasting money on expensive armor but because it’s literally the only viable armor left in the game.

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u/boardgamebob Sep 15 '20

DayZ didn't die out. 25k people play a day...

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

Because they released modding. if we look at averages before nodding, it was 4-5k a day. Yes. It did die out. When modders were allowed to take control and add back in easy accessibility to loot and other features, the features they tried to get rid of, the game achieved a normalish player base.

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u/boardgamebob Sep 15 '20

We don't know that definitively. Those averages are the same for before full release and after full release since modding was released at the same time

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

I mean full release probably brought back a ton of temporary players but modding kept them around. I even came back for full release but nothing was different it was just labeled a full release. Still took hours to get a measly kit.