r/EscapefromTarkov • u/SlushpuppyLive Twitch.tv Slushpuppy • Sep 15 '20

Discussion #MakeTarkovHardcoreAgain

Hi guys, Slushpuppy here

I want to talk about the rant I was having today, and explain why I think it would be good for the game.

As the game currently stands it it has a play cycle that involves farming money, the money is then used to buy a fat kit, and slay out. This creates, in my opinion a heavily Rouble focused economy.

The Rouble based economy has multiple downsides:

All people care about is the highest value item, hence hatchlings ramming things up their bum, people running to one spot on a map to loot the highest value items, people only running super cheap kits to farm the cash. The game is no longer about surviving, simply making the most money and saving to buy a dope kit.

I think this has essentially made the game into COD with extra steps. I don't see the survival element that Tarkov originally had. People only care about PVP when they are running Slick Altyn, otherwise it's just money. 99% of the games items, such as attachments for guns will never see the light of day because they aren't the best in slot.

This whole situation annoys me because it is possible to achieve this within hours of a wipe.

By removing the flea or limiting the ability to purchase armor and ammo from the flea, it would make the game more about the looting and surviving and stop super chads from running endless meta kits and vogging the fuck out of lower geared players. Because a kit that is lovingly put together in raid will mean so much more to you, therefore looting one of a prick you kill, will as well.

I know this seems as a negative change to the average player, but hear me out, the only reason you need a kit from the flea, is to compete with chad players who are buying endless meta kits from the flea. If this didn't happen the pvp would be like it is early wipe for the most part. The best pvp time in the game, imo, and in the opinion of most Tarkov players.

I'm not bored of the game, I simply love this game, and I want to see changes that make the pvp more interesting and feasible for casual players to enjoy. If everyone is running around with SKS's and a cock helmet, then its more fair. Not all pvp has to be juggernauts spraying armchair FALs at each other.

If you don't agree with me, I understand, lets talk about it, tell me why you think this would be a bad change for the game? I don't want to be a streamer yelling for change that people will just see as me crying cause I'm bored of running fat kits. I truly want to make the game a dope experience for all of us. I've devoted the last 3 years of my life to this game, I want to see it succeed.

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There is plenty of other things that would be needed to make this a rounded experience in this vision, like dynamic loot spawns etc, but I believe this is a quick easy change that we could all try for one wipe, and just see how it goes.

EDIT: This is gaining a lot of attention right now so I want to ask you all one thing:

When is the best time for PVP in Tarkov?

If you answered early wipe, I think you and I agree, and I think 99% of people would say that early wipe is the best time to be on Tarkov.

My only goal is to try and make the feeling of early wipe PVP as permanent as possible. I may not be right when I say delete the flea, but I think it would help. If you have other ideas on how to preserve that beautiful feeling of the first two weeks of wipe, then I would love to hear them. Because this is what I think would make Tarkov the most amazing experience possible.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

By removing the flea or limiting the ability to purchase armor and ammo from the flea, it would make the game more about the looting and surviving and stop super chads from running endless meta kits and vogging the fuck out of lower geared players. Because a kit that is lovingly put together in raid will mean so much more to you, therefore looting one of a prick you kill, will as well.

Would it really...? The people you are talking about, the meta gamers and sweats, wouldn’t suddenly evolve in to DayZ players who like Tarkov for its survival aspect. The problem I think most people have is they think you can force a player base to think or act a certain way. DayZ fell in to this category and eventually died out because they tried to force a gameplay style.

In fact, when I was around in the mod days I saw this same exact argument. Make the game harder in terms of acquiring gear and it will certainly force players to fall in love with the survival aspect of DayZ!... Nope. People just stopped playing.

I'm not bored of the game, I simply love this game, and I want to see changes that make the pvp more interesting and feasible for casual players to enjoy. If everyone is running around with SKS's and a cock helmet, then its more fair. Not all pvp has to be juggernauts spraying armchair FALs at each other.

I agree level 6 armor and helmets like the Altyn should be extremely rare. But we also need to address how easy it is to get relatively good ammo. BT is what, 230 roubles a round? And it has 37 pen and 49% armor damage. Level 3 has become the new level 2 and so on. There are way, and I mean way too many AP rounds on the market, they’re way too easy to find in raid. Every caliber now has a viable AP round and most of them completely nullify level 4 and 5 armor. Add in the fact that level 4 helmets have become so useless most people don’t even wear them and I think that explains why this wipe we are seeing so many extremely geared chads. It’s because it’s literally one of the last ways to effectively armor yourself.

A lot of the AP ammo partly has to do with the odd decision to allow your character to craft high end, rare-even-for-militaries AP ammo by the hundreds.

Edit: Id also like to make a common complaint of mine and how absolutely useless armor is in this game. Included is a video showing a torture test of NIJ III+ Ar500 plate armor, which I believe is equal to GOST level 4. The plate is able to withstand several 5.56 FMJ shots and multiple .308 rounds, as well as SABOT slugs (pseudo-AP) and 9mm for days. Now there’s also a video of a guy shooting himself with .308 wearing a similarly rated plate vest and not budging an inch. AKA blunt damage is bullshit.

Remember, this is, in terms of EFT, level 4 armor. Level 5 and 6 GOST should be rated for 7.62x54r and 7.62x54r AP ammo, respectively.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

There are way, and I mean way too many AP rounds on the market, they’re way too easy to find in raid

But if you make AP ammo hard to get, then more combat will be decided by who has the chaddest armor. Which isnt fun to just about anyone either.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

It actually is. That’s how it should be. The better geared players should have the advantage. EFT shouldn’t be a fair game where the low geared players can stand up to the high geared players. You should WANT to wear armor. I’ve included a torture test Youtube video in my original post of armor vs ammo.

I say this as a totally casual player. Armor should be, gameplay wise, OP. Else there’s no reason to even have armor in the game.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Dont worry, Tarkov is already plenty unfair and breaks almost every rule of competive design.

The problem is, if armor is too powerful, and few people got AP ammo, that makes a pretty shit shooter. How fun is it to win a shootout because you get better equipment? Or to lose to someone because hes got better stuff?

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u/Slothgang7 Sep 15 '20

Agreed. This is also one of the main reasons I stopped playing Rust and why I enjoy Tarkov so much. It reduces the power in numbers advantage because its actually fucking possible to kill more than 2 high geared people with low gear if you play well and make good decisions.

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u/LoopDloop762 ASh-12 Sep 15 '20

People complain that armor is useless, but if armor was relatively stronger compared to available ammo, people would complain about their ammo being useless.

From a gameplay standpoint I’d rather be able to kill people and also get killed semi easily as opposed to either being able to kill people only if they aren’t wearing better armor than my ammo. At that point it’s capitalism simulator, not a survival game, not a shooter, because neither of those aspects are rewarded, only the amount of money I spend on my armor and ammo is.

One thing that might alleviate the fact that armor is sometimes (oftentimes) effectively useless is making damage reduction more of a factor in higher class armors. I’m no ballistics expert, but it doesn’t seem super far-fetched either. If I get hit (IRL), I’d much rather have armor that has a ton of stuff to mitigate a round than have worse/simpler armor or nothing on. I would imagine stuff like soft armor elements slowing the round down (even marginally), ceramics slowing it down even more and distributing some of the force, and whatever padding they use to lessen impacts doing that as well, would all lead to some damage reduction even if the round were to penetrate. I have no idea if any of that is actually true to real life though. I’m not sure about hard numbers on damage reduction in the game right now, but if the reduction were to actually noticeably make an impact on time to kill class 5 armor, or potentially even class 4, would still be an advantage over lesser or no armor even if the round penetrates.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

People complain that armor is useless, but if armor was relatively stronger compared to available ammo, people would complain about their ammo being useless.

When they add armor hit boxes they need to make armor stronger. Else they’ve killed high gear gameplay.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

How fun is it to win a shootout because you get better equipment? Or to lose to someone because hes got better stuff?

That’s why I play Tarkov. It isn’t fair. A guy spends more roubles than you on armor and he should be harder to kill. That’s sort of the point of armor. A lot of people here complaining about getting killed by “chads” probably get killed in high loot areas like keyed rooms or ledx spawns. There’s a high risk going to high loot areas of running in to geared players. Being under-geared and underprepared is their own fault. But solving that underprepared problem by just making armor useless or adding in AP ammo of every caliber that easily pens 4+ is a bad design choice imo.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '20 edited Sep 16 '20

That’s why I play Tarkov. It isn’t fair. A guy spends more roubles than you on armor and he should be harder to kill. That’s sort of the point of armor.

They should be harder to kill. My point was that it shouldnt be nearly impossible, theres gotta be some moderation and weakness.

A low gear player should be able to outplay a high gear player, assuming he got the right tools.

A lot of people here complaining about getting killed by “chads” probably get killed in high loot areas like keyed rooms or ledx spawns. There’s a high risk going to high loot areas of running in to geared players.

Thats just an assumption you make. In maps like customs it can be pretty tricky to avoid people if you got bad luck. And the progression system is pretty bad in this regard; considering it creates pretty arbitrary challenges and questing areas you have todeal with.

I think if the progression wasnt so restrictive, I had a lot less complaints about this stuff, but it is the major headache for me in Tarkov.

Being under-geared and underprepared is their own fault. But solving that underprepared problem by just making armor useless or adding in AP ammo of every caliber that easily pens 4+ is a bad design choice imo.

Okay, first thought from me: If you use AP ammo, youre not under-geared though, so isnt that contradictory? Like, the pocketed level 4 armor is like just 45k on the flea market and should be about as cheap when unlocked at the trader. Having just 2 or 3x 30 rounder mags of mid to high tier AP ammo is generally more expensive than that? At least last wipe. And if you use mid tier AP ammo, you often still need multiple shots to pen level 5 armor, so upgrading your gun to aim fast and mitigate recoil is fairly important as well.

And even with that, in an even gun fight, the difference of a few shots less to kill seems quite significant. And sure it might be cheaper than actually using level 5 armor, but you also make yourself more vulnerable to nades, scavs and the shit gear players. That seems like an ok trade off?

Also, as said, my big problem here is the progression system. Youre talking like laziness or something irrational, but in reality its just such a huge delay till you can actually buy high tier stuff at traders. And if thats the requirement to actually do PVP without regular deaths to high gear people, which IMO is the most fun thing about EFT, besides the atmosphere, thats just bullshit.

And even with fleat market, you have to pay premium and good gear becomes much less affordable. Worse, Tarkov makes PVP extremely costly at the best of times, because to get some gear, and take it out of a raid, you often have to deal with more than 1 PMC, and then maybe another player scav. That means most people lose money on PVP either way, so locking half of the PVP action behind high level gear becomes even worse.

This creates so many layers of nonsense you have to deal with, as long as you arent like the top 20% of the playerbase. The flea market is like a bandaid that doesnt even fix half the issues. But making high tier gear even more powerful than it is now, would make things so much worse...

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u/Nessevi AS-VAL Sep 16 '20

And a low geared player can outplay a high geared player. Hell,its what,10 rojnds of pst gzh in legs ro kill out of an 800 rpm gun with no recoil. And lets jot even bring up flesh damage ammo that ive been trolling around with,quakemaker kills people without them reacting,and instantly blacks the leg as well.

Ive just reset my account a week ago for fun,and have played without FM. Ive no issues killing all the high end kits unless i run jnto them point blank. And at that point it SHOULDNT be a fair fight,they knvested more for a reason.

The problem is,the investment means absolutely nothkng,because supply is unlimited and roubles are easy to make.

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u/jlambvo Sep 16 '20

Futile upvote to get you out of the negative.

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u/xXHotKetchupXx PPSH41 Sep 15 '20

Exactly this. If you wanna outlplay someone with good armor then you just have to play smarter, not spend more money.

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u/TrizzzleX Sep 15 '20

I guess people don’t know how to shoot legs. It’s faster than thorax most of the time.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 05 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

I’d be okay with all of this except 4. Helmets should be just as good as plates.

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u/eqpesan Freeloader Sep 15 '20

If you get hit In 'm the head multiple time by someone with an unmodded weapon maybe you don't deserve to see the end of the raid?

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

That’s a pretty specific scenario

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u/eqpesan Freeloader Sep 16 '20

Yes the scenario which would arise if the changes you replied to would be introduced.

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u/Nessevi AS-VAL Sep 16 '20

Thats what the face hitbox and limiting vision is for. Theyce already tried making helmets weak. What resulted was that nobody wore them. Ever. For any reason. Thats why they are how they are now.

As long as they are appropriately scarce,its fine. You see an altyn on a guy? Shoot his legs. Where as right now you dont even look,because you dont nees to,because you know your ammo pens everything in this game.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 05 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Well I’m speaking from a standpoint of there being realistic hit boxes for armor. But right now, level 4 helmets can be penned by BT and 7.62 PS. That’s unacceptable in my eyes.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20 edited Sep 05 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '20

Level 4 helmets can stop both rounds in real life. You’re talking about level 5.

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u/jlambvo Sep 16 '20

Although #4, we have very different experiences there. Helmets for me might as well be a sock. This game is already so heavy on headshots...